[Closed] Teachers striking again!!!!!

Why are you still doing it aracer? why do you think it is a fair comparison?

If we look at the median graduate salary [where a degree is a pre requisite] this will show techers perfome less well compared to their post graduate peers

The majority of graduates aren't highly paid lawyers and doctors.

Don't confuse "jobs that graduates do" with "jobs that only graduates may do".

Its not just average graduate pay its average pay in graduate level jobs we need

It is not relevant or fair or reasonable to compare graduates to the normal population as they have skills and abilities the normal population dont have and get higher wages EVERYONE KNOWS THIS. It is why the current gOvt want a graduate tax for example it is meanginless to keep comparing them to the general population
I could produce figures for you but I am sure you could find some vague illdefined reason for objecting to them and we could then discuss that 🙄
quick google gives us this gem to argue about for the next few days

Figures from the Association of Graduate Careers Annual Review 2008 suggest that a typical starting salary for a first-degree graduate ranges from £15,000 to more than £35,500 with a median or the average salary of £25,000. The lowest starting salaries are found within the public sector and the best salaries, over £35,500, in legal services, banking and finance. Other business services such as IT, transport, communications and consultancy services see typical starting salaries of £25,000. It's important to note that this is just a guide.

Don't confuse "jobs that graduates do" with "jobs that only graduates may do"

[url= http://www.ftadviser.com/FinancialAdviser/Pensions/Comment/article/20110505/67835c0c-71ae-11e0-b94c-00144f2af8e8/Feathering-the-nest.jsp ]We're all in this together![/url]

Nice article and very true Dave we are, so the might of the Public Sector and Unions may just may have an effect that all will benefit from. Which is worth remembering.

Might even be true in the real world - coppers dont live as long as firefighters

But anyway, this is off-topic...

Figures from the Association of Graduate Careers Annual Review 2008 suggest that a typical starting salary for a first-degree graduate ranges from £15,000 to more than £35,500 with a median or the average salary of £25,000. The lowest starting salaries are found within the public sector and the best salaries, over £35,500, in legal services, banking and finance. Other business services such as IT, transport, communications and consultancy services see typical starting salaries of £25,000. It's important to note that this is just a guide.

So, after 9 years of teaching, my salary is almost equal to the £35,500 median starting salary for graduates in legal services, banking and finance.

That tallies with the salaries my peers at uni started on. (I went to Durham, so knew lots of people who started as accountants or management consultant-types.)

The 50%+ of the population who earn less than teachers are quite reasonably annoyed that they are guaranteeing teachers defined benefit pensions.

50%+ you say?

Did you know that 72% of statistics are inaccurate? And that 41% are made up?

That tallies with the salaries my peers at uni started on.

So why didn't you become an accountant or management consultant?

Maybe he wanted to do something more worthwhile.

I thought it was all about the money (and the pensions)?

Right, that's enough of this!

I am now deploying my usually reliable special thread-killing capabilities.

STOP IT NOW. YOU ARE ALL GOING ROUND IN CIRCLES. THE EXCLAMATION MARKS IN THE THREAD TITLE ARE DOING MY HEAD IN.

STOP IT. I REALLY MEAN IT THIS TIME.

Right, that's enough of this!

I am now deploying my usually reliable special thread-killing capabilities.

STOP IT NOW. YOU ARE ALL GOING ROUND IN CIRCLES. THE EXCLAMATION MARKS IN THE THREAD TITLE ARE DOING MY HEAD IN.

STOP IT. I REALLY MEAN IT THIS TIME.

I don't quite get your point? Could you explain it in another way? Perhaps kinaesthetically? 😆

Banging heads together??? 😉

So why didn't you become an accountant or management consultant?

I made a decision based upon the package offered. That package has now changed. Hence the problem.

Hence the problem.

I went to Durham, so knew lots of people who started as accountants or management consultant-types

you learned to be a teacher at Durham?

STOPITSTOPITSTOPITNOW.

STOPITSTOPITSTOPITNOW.

you rang m'lord?

Remember when teachers, nurses, doctors, social workers and lollipop ladies crashed the stock market, wiped out banks, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax? No, me neither. Please copy and paste to your status for 24 hours to show your support for the strikes against the government's latest attack on pensions.

this is doing the rounds on facebook at the mo.. quite succinct I thought..

Hmmm! Not sure I support the stikes though, workd to rule yes full industrial action no. Far too many at riks if we, Nurses, Dr's and Scoial workers and some others go on strike.

Remember when teachers, nurses, doctors, social workers and lollipop ladies crashed the stock market, wiped out banks, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax? No, me neither.

[b]I do. All the above happened very recently.[/b] Teachers and nurses borrowed more than they could afford to buy a part-share home. They got caught up in a bubble and thought they would double their money on the rabbit hutch flat they bought.

Middle aged social workers and doctors bought second homes on 'buy to let deals', again, thinking they would make easy money out of pricing 1st time buyers out of the market and making them rent the same house.

Only the housing bubble burst. And the teachers, nurses, social workers and doctors suddenly found themselves in negative equity. And without all the overtime they'd lied to the bank about, saying it was guaranteed, they can't keep the repayments going.

So many people threw their keys back to the bank that the bank had to hand its keys to the Government.

Yes, banks were silly: but no bank ever forced anyone to take out a loan, or lie about whether they could afford it. Everyday people did that.

Ouch!

dm...you forgot to blame the lollipop ladies

without all the overtime they'd lied to the bank about

where do I sign up for overtime payments? Bet not many teachers or nurses have defaulted either, fairly stable jobs you see and intrest rates have gone down. Or maybe you just like talking shite.

REALLY, dmj, says who? You? Because recent performance would suggest you are not the best source of information. I mean,who would have thought it,it was public sector workers caused the banks to go bust! [b]Hang on;[/b] that post was a troll! damn, you got me there!

So many people threw their keys back to the bank that the bank had to hand its keys to the Government.

But weven handing back the keys doesnt ensure the debt or motgage dies with the keys the banks have the right to reclaim any money or costs as wekll as intrest up to 7 years after youve handed back the keys.

Quite a few people are going to have a very costly shock .

I'm quite happy to exclude lollipop ladies from this one!

You missed out what they did to Greece as well when they could no longer afford to go there on holiday or when they had to give up the huomous when the credit crunch really hit home.
That really is taking your dislike of the public sector way beyond what reality can sustain ...it is not even tenuous.

dmjb4 - Chapeau 8)

Indeed, some people seem to have forgotten, that you too can be a property developer!

[img] [/img]

Now, would anyone like a self cert 125% mortgage.... or hows about a buy to let?

You don't need to be paid overtime. Many people in this country bought a house in the boom, using a mortgage that the bank properly risked. Then the homeowner took out a big loan to decorate, build a conservatory or buy a range rover. They thought the house prices would keep on rising sufficiently to cover the loan they couldn't really afford to pay, and they would be able to sell the house, repay the mortgage and loan and make big big bucks for themselves.

Only it didn't work out that way. So a bank that made a good faith mortgage was hit with a big loss because an individual was greedy.

Junkyard, I'm a teacher and I'll never give up my hummus! NEVER!!!

Edit: OMG dmjb really meant it...the banks knew exactly what what was going on and were more than happy to in along with it. They didn't have to increase the mortgage multiplier

Edit: OMG dmjb really meant it...the banks knew exactly what what was going on and were more than happy to in along with it. They didn't have to increase the mortgage multiplier

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/factsheet.php?page=11_mortgage_shortfalls

Should have gone on my post above.

Many people in this country bought a house in the boom

so not jut public sector workers then? Gosh thats good, I thought I was going to have to protest against my own kind for a moment there.

Only it didn't work out that way. So a bank that made a good faith mortgage was hit with a big loss because an individual was greedy.

According to the National Bureau of Economic Research (the official arbiter of recessions) the recession began in December 2007.[13] The financial crisis is linked to reckless lending practices by financial institutions and the growing trend of securitization of real estate mortgages in the United States.[14][not in citation given] The US mortgage-backed securities, which had risks that were hard to assess, were marketed around the world. A more broad based credit boom fed a global speculative bubble in real estate and equities, which served to reinforce the risky lending practices.[15][16] The precarious financial situation was made more difficult by a sharp increase in oil and food prices. The emergence of Sub-prime loan losses in 2007 began the crisis and exposed other risky loans and over-inflated asset prices. With loan losses mounting and the fall of Lehman Brothers on September 15, 2008, a major panic broke out on the inter-bank loan market. As share and housing prices declined, many large and well established investment and commercial banks in the United States and Europe suffered huge losses and even faced bankruptcy, resulting in massive public financial assistance.

There is no lending without borrowing though, is there!

Say a neighbour asks you to lend £5 to get lunch as he's lost his bank card, and assures you he'll pay it back. You call round next week to remind him, and he says he can't pay you back. You later find out he's an alcoholic and trade unionist*. A man of low moral fibre who spends any money he has on cigarettes, drink and union subs. Would you expect the entire street to ostracise you, claim it was all your fault?

No. You made a reckless decision, but the real fault lies with the person who abused your trust. Same as mortgage bubbles - the fault lies with those who became addicted to debt, not those lending it in good faith, however foolishly.

*sorry, couldn't resist.

If I freely LEND my money to someone of my own volition through choice and they cannot pay me back I would say that I was piss poor at assessing risk. if i did this to a lot of people and went bankrupt I would have a look at my own actions and how they were responsible for the situation. I guess I could blame everyone else but i would need to be much more stupider than what i am.
Even if I accepted your view it is way to simplistic to suggest that the entire situation [ started in America was due simply to home loans and it is ridiculous to suggest it was due to UK based public sector workers

The failure rates of subprime mortgages were the first symptom of a credit boom tuned to bust and of a real estate shock. But large default rates on subprime mortgages cannot account for the severity of the crisis. Rather, low-quality mortgages acted as an accelerant to the fire that spread through the entire financial system. The latter had become fragile as a result of several factors that are unique to this crisis: the transfer of assets from the balance sheets of banks to the markets, the creation of complex and opaque assets, the failure of ratings agencies to properly assess the risk of such assets, and the application of fair value accounting. To these novel factors, one must add the now standard failure of regulators and supervisors in spotting and correcting the emerging weaknesses.

asks you to lend £5

you could of given him a gift instead...

[url= http://www.johnlewis.com/Gifts/For+Teachers/For+Teachers/For+Teachers/21775/ProductCategory.aspx?s_kenid=7fa759b8-b7d0-43a8-4ba2-000059f18bf2&s_kwcid=3x1985701 ]http://www.johnlewis.com/Gifts/For+Teachers/For+Teachers/For+Teachers/21775/ProductCategory.aspx?s_kenid=7fa759b8-b7d0-43a8-4ba2-000059f18bf2&s_kwcid=3x1985701[/url]

If I freely LEND my money to someone of my own volition through choice and they cannot pay me back I would say that I was piss poor at assessing risk.

In other news:

[img] [/img]

What a stupid comparison dmjb4, unless of course you are a bank.

Banks are in the business of lending money, ie, their business is lending money. They are in fact "experts" in the field of lending money, that's how they justify their huge profits. I would expect an expert money lender to do their homework and not to lend money to an alcoholic smoking trade unionist. Clearly the man has no moral fibre and to lend money to him would amount to gross incompetence.

[b][u]School closures during next week's strikes mean all employers need a contingency plan[/b][/u]
[url= http://www.hrmagazine.co.uk/hro/features/1019639/school-closures-weeks-strikes-mean-employers-contingency-plan ]http://www.hrmagazine.co.uk/hro/features/1019639/school-closures-weeks-strikes-mean-employers-contingency-plan[/url]

My wife's employer (NHS) are offering three options:
1) take holiday
2) unpaid leave
3) make up the hours

I'd be interesting in hearing what's on offer to teachers who don't wish to strike but are forced to look after their kids? or would they just go on strike and get paid?

or would they just go on strike and get paid?

?

you dont get paid on strike mainly because you are not working.

So what happens if you dont want to strike, and go into work,and theres nobody else there.Do you stil get paid

yes

you dont get paid on strike mainly because you are not working.

What about teachers who are forced to have time off to look after their kids, due to the striking teachers. Holiday; Unpaid leave; or make up the hours, I assume?

[quote=project?]But if theres nobody in, how do you prove that you attended, with the intention of doing work

It actually works the other way, if you go on strike, you have to declare it as a strike day. If you don't do that, the assumption is that you worked. Even with teachers. Even if some find it hard to believe that when the kids aren't there, teachers still find something to do!

So I presume teachers are salary paid per month, anyone who's on strike will be docked a days wage??

So I presume teachers are salary paid per month, anyone who's on strike will be docked a days wage??

I reckon

Even if some find it hard to believe that when the kids aren't there, teachers still find something to do!

Unless they are forced to '[b]have leave?[/b](not sure)' and go off and look after their kids who can't go to school due to the teacher's strike.

School closures during next week's strikes mean all employers need a contingency plan
http://www.hrmagazine.co.uk/hro/features/1019639/school-closures-weeks-strikes-mean-employers-contingency-plan

My wife's employer (NHS) are offering three options:
1) take holiday
2) unpaid leave
3) make up the hours

so, the teachers have a forth option..

4) go on strike

The point is that yunki's post earlier was a load of tosh.

Public sector workers share the same collective responsibility for the crisis as everyone else. Public sector workers also went too far in the good times, and must therefore share equally in the correction.

You can't pretend its nothing to do with you, when you have credit cards, large mortgages and the threat of large scale redundancies in your job sector. Quite rightly, the bank expects many public sector workers will not keep to the terms and repay their loans.

What about teachers who are forced to have time off to look after their kids, due to the striking teachers. Holiday; Unpaid leave; or make up the hours, I assume?

Is this a desperate attempt to keep a tired thread alive, or are you just hopelessly determined to dig around the bottom of the barrel for all potential "problems" associated with teachers attempting to protect their pensions ?

Public sector workers also went too far in the good times, and must therefore share equally in the correction.

Despite the fact you keep repeating this it does not make it true. you did read the account of what caused it above did you not?

You can't pretend its nothing to do with you, when you have credit cards, large mortgages and the threat of large scale redundancies in your job sector. Quite rightly, the bank expects many public sector workers will not keep to the terms and repay their loans.

Is this a desperate attempt to keep a tired thread alive,

Just saying!

Actually dmj that's the wring type of housing and none if those people caused the problems. If you read my earlier post you'll know I have a bit of background in this stuff. The housing that caused the problems was sub prime in the us mostly that wad then securitised through mortgage backed securities that were invested in by almost all banks. Sub prime went pop which caused the cash flows and waterfalls ti stop. This in turn caused inter bank lending to stop and bobs your uncle. That's a bit simple as ut doesn't cover the credit default swap situation but it had little to do with Jo blogs in the uk.

you could of given him a gift instead...

http://www.johnlewis.com/Gifts/For+Teachers/For+Teachers/For+Teachers/21775/ProductCategory.aspx?s_kenid=7fa759b8-b7d0-43a8-4ba2-000059f18bf2&s_kwcid=3x1985701

I honestly could not give a to$$ about teachers pensions. I just want to take my kids to school after all it's a service I pay for.

we have all picked up on that you dont care for anyone but yourself but hey thanks for making it so clear.
Just think if the teachers took your not caring attitude and say went on strike during exams?
Thankfully they are not like you ...you should thank them for that

Just think if the teachers took your not caring attitude and say went on strike during exams?

Why should I give a to$$ about teachers pensions? does that make me evil somehow?

akysurf - Member

I honestly could not give a to$$ about teachers pensions.

And this is why people go on strike. If you won't care about their issue, they'll make it yours and see if you care about that. If you want to take your kids to school and get the service you pay for, then why not get onside with the people you're relying on?

you should thank them for that

....what would you suggest?...

[url= http://www.johnlewis.com/Gifts/For+Teachers/For+Teachers/For+Teachers/21775/ProductCategory.aspx?s_kenid=7fa759b8-b7d0-43a8-4ba2-000059f18bf2&s_kwcid=3x1985701 ]http://www.johnlewis.com/Gifts/For+Teachers/For+Teachers/For+Teachers/21775/ProductCategory.aspx?s_kenid=7fa759b8-b7d0-43a8-4ba2-000059f18bf2&s_kwcid=3x1985701[/url][

why not get onside with the people you're relying on

....because nothing in this thread has provided me with a convincing reason to do that.

You know the 100 monkeys in a room with 100 typewriters theory, well it's now in the modern times. It's a hundred monkeys in a room with 100 laptops all sharing one STW login. The login name is DMJB4 and these monkeys are bitter as they don't have the same conditions as the public sector as the monkey Union has gone bananas.

Why should I give a to$$ about teachers pensions? does that make me evil somehow?

bangaio - you are confusing triggers and causes. You've read just enough to be dangerous.

The actual size of the sub-prime sector is and was tiny, even in the US. The few specialist lenders failed quickly, and most people don't even know the names of the institutions. These were resolved quickly.

However, these failures caused everyone to look at bigger institutions holding supposedly higher grade debt, in vastly higher quantities. The fear here - of jo blogs defaulting - closed the interbank lending market.

You know the 100 monkeys in a room with 100 typewriters theory

Pay peanuts get monkeys - is another theory

The fear here - of jo blogs defaulting - closed the interbank lending market.

akysurf - Member

....because nothing in this thread has provided me with a convincing reason to do that.

If they stop doing their jobs, it will cause you a massive pain in the arse. Therefore, they are important to you. Therefore, let's not piss them off. You will be happier if they are at work.

Ideologically, I'm on their side, won't try and deny it but pragmatically, it makes sense too.

don't have the same conditions as the public sector

If they stop doing their jobs, it will cause you a massive pain in the arse. Therefore, they are important to you. Therefore, let's not piss them off. You will be happier if they are at work.

..gun to the head.

^^ There is the problem in one.

Union movements have had their day and now amount to little more than a protection racket.

It is no longer 1832. Workers are no longer serfs tied to a farm. If you want better pay and conditions you can now freely travel to the next village and look for better terms there, or turn your hand to a different trade.

If the unions do strike it will fail. As in 1926. Yes, the "golden" general strike which resulted in the workers returning to their jobs, without a single concession. The good news is that a general strike today is likely to result in one thing: Boris Johnson and co will get their way and we'll have proper laws to restrict the ability of unions to threaten the prosperity of the nation.

[img] [/img]

If they stop doing their jobs, it will cause you a massive pain in the arse. Therefore, they are important to you. Therefore, let's not piss them off. You will be happier if they are at work.

Okay, here's my compromise. Instead of striking, open the school as normal, look after the kids but just don't 'teach' for a day.

akysurf - Member

..gun to the head.

That's where the ideology comes in. You can call it that, or you can see it as them asserting their value- it's easy to take something for granted til its gone.

The fact that they're important enough to you that you can feel losing them, even for a day or two, is a "gun to the head" should tell you something though.

That's where the ideology comes in.

Not so ideal if your a public worker with a critical life saving responsibility, eg. nurse.