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I've already stated my view on the videos produced by those people.
The video is both irrelevant and nonsense
The typical teacher earns an above average salary.....Teachers are in the top half of all wage earners in the UK......There is no sympathy for greedy teachers
Are you saying that teachers do not deserve to be earning an 'above average salary'?
I've already stated my view on the videos produced by those people.
so when you listen to the BBC/ITV/C4 news, you check the credentials of the producers also?
TJ - doesn't the same apply to investment bankers? Highly qualified, work long hours. Burnt out in 20 years.
I agree that highly qualified people should earn more than average.
The point I was making is that they are asking the bigger part of the population that earns less than them to subsidise their already gold plated pensions. Quite reasonably, there's been a bit of negative feedback.
Oh dear, mention of bankers....
Cue the frothing indignation.
•Rest of England and Wales: £21,588 to £31,552.....happy days
Median salary in UK is £499/wk or £26k/y.
The National Statistics figures above are not London weighted. So we can assume that outside London the figure is lower.
Essentially, the typical teacher earns an above average salary
•Rest of England and Wales: £21,588 to £31,552 that would be about £26k average then.
They're not fighting about pay it's about their pension plan being changed, no wouldn't complain if their pension was changed to one that's worse. They've decided to take action about this where other would moan and just let themselves be shafted. I'm not saying it's right as I not a believer in striking from essential workers but they're doing what they feel is necessary.
The point I was making is that they are asking the bigger part of the population that earns less than them to subsidise their already gold plated pensions. Quite reasonably, there's been a bit of negative feedback.
But this is not the case.
FFS -
i) the pensions are not gold plated
2) the taxpayer contribution is capped so no excessive subsidy
3) the scheme has already been reformed
Actually the teachers thru their taxes are indirectly subsidising all those private sector businesses that don't have pensions for their workers as their workers will retire on benefits.
You have been conned by the propaganda. Don't be a sheep
Investment bankers earn huge sums - far more than any teacher
akysurf - Member"I've already stated my view on the videos produced by those people."
so when you listen to the BBC/ITV/C4 news, you check the credentials of the producers also?
I don't really watch TV.
You can't compare the average UK salary to teachers, you need to compare similarly qualified people.
Teacher = basic 2.2 from any uni.
Goldman Sachs = best in class at top 10 uni.
Investment bankers are also massively more qualified than teachers. More than me and most of the people on here.
I never thought I'd hear TJ admit that bankers deserve their money!
Drac - £26,570 actually. A teacher outside London earns 2.5% more than the average worker nationally (including London).
The typical teacher earns an above average salary..
not for graduates though and they are all post graduates
All investment bankers work for Goldman Sachs?
For balance, I earned a LOT more putting plaster on walls than I have teaching, but hey don't let that get in the way of your posting of "suit yourself" statistics. Teaching = Degree +post grad+probation; ie six years. For the record, I will swap bank cards with a merchant banker any time.
It's not suit myself statistics is it? One set are official govt figures and one set were from teaching union website! There are no real alternative data sets that we can use.
One the other point, yes, me too.
Drac - £26,570 actually. A teacher outside London earns 2.5% more than the average worker nationally (including London)
Like said about that's not a huge amount given the average covers a huge population and includes teachers. Like already said it's not about wages and you need to like for like not just national average.
Anyway I'm off to be work shy and get the rest of the uk to pay for my pension while I still can.
Comparing like for like using the London weighting provided for teachers would turn the 2.5% into more like 25%.
It's not suit myself statistics is it?
no it is a statistic that shows that better qualified people earn more money than less qualified people. I think we can all accept that point. So do they earn more than other [post]graduates?
Where's your like for like then? For a private teacher Vs normal?
You can't just say oooh it'll be 25%.
Right must dash laziness to be done at work.
No need for that tag. Mods?
Of course they areGoldman Sachs = best in class at top 10 uni.Investment bankers are also massively more qualified than teachers. More than me and most of the people on here.
Of course they are
whereas....
dmj, Last year of Uni I broke my ankle and couldn't plaster. I took a job, the worst I have ever had, in a call centre. The place was full of people with ordinary degrees in "International relations" and "Media studies,(reading a paper?)" who were never going to do anything other than work for effing clientlogic (may the fleas of a thousand camels infect their armpits) for £12,500 a year, happy in the knowledge that a new warhammer figure could be bought every couple of weeks. I would suggest they even out the average amount earned by grad. Teaching = six years,same as accountants and lawyers.
No need for that tag. Mods?
Agreed. If calling someone boring on a tag is 'offensive', the they should take similar action..........
tag
Resorting to abuse = trait of a loser
Taggers have had 30mins to remove tags and not done so, so I've reported them.
If you haven't got the balls to say something face to face, or as face to face as you can on a forum, don't be a spineless gimp in the tags.
+1 but I reported it first
I hate the way folk use tags to do personal insults/digs it is cowardice
TBH i rarely read them for this reason
Teacher = basic 2.2 from any uni.
I have a 2:1 actually
and a Masters
and a PhD
Ok, [b]to sort out the tags[/b], which we all love, and to make sure they stay within the bounds of a) being vaguely useful for searching etc. and b) stay within limits of taste and decency, here are the rules..Tags must be no longer than three words – any longer and they will be deleted
Tags must follow the same rules of the forum ie.. no swearing or personal abuse.
Tags must be relevant to the thread. They will be deleted if we think they are not.
Tags of contributors names will be deleted. Calm that ego.
[u]Since when did I say I was a banker?[/u]
Wow - I have read the entire thread so though i'd chip in. This will be interesting as I can coment as a former banker working for a US bank in the City and now a teacher of 6 years (and that is with only a 2:1 from a former Poly!)
The first point is that in my school we have great teachers who are all well and highly qualified. We have PhD scientists, 3 who graduated from Oxford, just under half have masters. If most of these worked outside the public sector they would earn more. Obviously they (and I) have chosen work life balance however I am far more exhausted after a 6 lesson day that getting in at 6am to close Asian deals and staying until 9pm finishin US conference calls. You are on show, dealing with situations wou would be unable to predict when you start the day as well as dealing with some of the most infuriating parents you can imagine.
The pension I have is good and I obviously do not want to see it going down with my contributions increasing. No one would. Yes the economy is in a bad way but it isn't as bad as the spin puts out. Very few understand what caused the economy to go pop (it was them bankers and their bonuses innit). If you understand how a CDO, mortgage or asset backed securities or repack debt programme works then you may be able to comment but most bankers had little or nothing to do with it. If you were a trader brining in millions each year your bonus would relect that not to mention a m&a advisor bringing together a large IPO or merger. Most bankers however don't get paid that much. More than me but not how the press portray.
Almost all pupils who underperform that I deal with have the most hectic, difficult, messed up home lives. Nearly all problems make sense when you meet the parents.
Sorry for the rambling rant!
In response, I would say you are more qualified than most to form a fair assessment.
Do you think the teachers are justified in striking?
@akysurf - now that is an interesting one. I don't think striking is always the answer. I used to moan about tube strikes all the time! I do think however that something needs to be done as I for example considered the pension to be a perk when I changed careers. Yes I wouldn't be paid as much. No I wouldn't get to go boozing on client nights out or big law firm parties. Yes I would get nice holidays (although most mates work so they are pretty boring - poor me!) and a nice pension. The government just in hy opinion seem to like putting the fighteners on the population and this is an example. The government is in debt but then again it always is. Economies go up, and they go down. Things will get better yet they seem to want to mess up people's livelyhoods for the rest of their lives. It is a tough one and I don't have the answer!
What I can tell you is that I love my job and love working with kids (I teach 11-18) and the challenge both mentally and psychologically is great. Changing career was the best thing I ever did.
Jesus - I can't spell at all! I blame the stupid low profile apple keyboard. (Should I mention I teach ICT and computing?)
@Bangio - thanks, appreciate your comment.
Median salary in UK is £499/wk or £26k/y....
•Rest of England and Wales: £21,588 to £31,552 that would be about £26k average then.
Drac - £26,570 actually. A teacher outside London earns 2.5% more than the average worker nationally
I don't suppose anybody round here understands the difference between mean and median, and that the middle value in a range is neither of those things? Any maths teachers about?
What do you think the median is if not the middle value? n+1 / 2 or the middle data point.
Now you're just playing with statistics to confuse [s]me[/s] everyone. 👿
middle value
As there are only two values stated, the median can be taken as the mean of these two values - I would guess.
As there are only two values stated, the median can be taken as the mean of these two values - I would guess
Please tell me that neither you nor junky are maths teachers?
ok three averages
mean - add all the numbers up and divide by how many you have or sum x divided by number of x
Median as above rank order them [ high to low or low to high makes no difference then find the mid point in your list [ called range]
Modal - which number /value occurs most often in the range
HTH
Hope I got it right without google.
EDIT:
Aracer to save time show me the maths then
[url= http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&pq=plenty%20of%20fish&xhr=t&q=median+definition&cp=8&pf=p&sclient=psy&source=hp&aq=0&aqi=&aql=&oq=median+d&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=2318d3a2eff346d5&biw=1138&bih=535 ]google link for median defintion[/url]
Surely Junkyard is correct for the definition of median, mean is what most would understand when talking about averages. Either way there isn't enough data, or were my teachers crap too?
[url= http://www.purplemath.com/modules/meanmode.htm ]http://www.purplemath.com/modules/meanmode.htm[/url]
aracer - MemberI don't suppose anybody round here understands the difference between mean and median, and that the middle value in a range is neither of those things?
Er... The definition of the median is that it's the middle value in your range.
CaptainFlashheart - MemberOh dear, mention of bankers....
Cue the frothing indignation.
Frothing indignation from who Flashheart ............... David Cameron maybe ?
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/4348801/David-Cameron-calls-for-criminal-actions-against-bankers.html ]David Cameron calls for criminal actions against bankers[/url]
Quote :
[i]"David Cameron last night expressed disbelief that financial watchdogs were not pursuing criminal investigations against banks and bankers who have caused the financial crisis."[/i]
Criminal investigations against bankers [u]who have caused the financial crisis[/u] suggests Cameron.......what do you reckon about that Flashheart - is it "frothing indignation" ?
Or maybe you meant his sidekick George Osborne ?
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/6031982/George-Osborne-banks-should-be-banned-from-paying-out-bonuses.html ]George Osborne: banks should be banned from paying out bonuses[/url]
Quote :
[i]"Banks that have received any form of Government guarantee should be banned from paying out large bonuses, George Osborne has said."[/i]
What do you think of the idea of banning large bonuses to bankers that have received any form of Government guarantee Flashheart.........or is it just "frothing indignation" ?
Do tell us 💡
Either way there isn't enough data
Bingo.
Me good student. 😆
Though if you asked me to hazard a guess, I'd expect the median pay to be well above the mid point of the range.
I don't suppose anybody round here understands the difference between mean and median, and that the middle value in a range is neither of those things?
the median value is the middle value in a range it is the very defintion of this. You can work out an average for any sample size [even one] the only issue would be whether it was worth it ie the measure had validity not whether it was the median value or not.
the median value is the middle value in a range it is the very defintion of this
OK poor terminology - I should have said "mid point of a range" as I did in my latest post.
http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6000186 would suggest that the median value is actually likely to be £31,552
I'd expect the median pay to be well above the mid point of the range.
quote: "Teachers get paid on sliding scales according to experience, seniority and other responsibilities. The scales are complicated – go to teachers.org for a full breakdown – but generally range from the low £20,000s for a newly-qualified teacher up to £100,000+ for an executive headteacher. Median full-time salaries are in the £34,000-£36,000 range." (ref:[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/jan/01/make-money-2011-better-paid-job ]http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/jan/01/make-money-2011-better-paid-job[/url])
Teachers get paid on the main scale then the upper pay scale. There are as mentioned 4 scales. Inner, outer and fringe of London and rest of the UK. If I get paid M5 where I work I can move to the other end othe country and get paid the same. Once you hit M6 you can progress to the upper pay scale which has it's own set of measures you must meet to progress on to it and the head teacher decides. You then have the leadership scale mainly but not only for assistant heads, deputies and of course head teachers. Progression on this is down to the goveners. There is also a pay scale for advanced skills teachers.
Then there are TLRs - teaching and learnig responsibility points. Theser range from around a grand up to 11k. These are for middle leaders: Heads of department, heads of year/house, people in charge of key stages etc.
I am for example on M6 london fringe and am also a head of house where I am in charge of 7 tutors and about 150 kids. It isn't masses but is ok for me. And I get to ride loads and play golf in the summer holidays
If everyone got paid the same in the world I would be very upset. In most classes I teach I have kids who will go on the be very well paid and become accountants, laywers, bankers even. There are some kids who will be fine but never mega earners and then there are those who will be lucky to get a job and those who will probably be locked up fairly shortly.
None of this is down to me although if they want to learn and have had good behaviour drilled into them by their parents they normally will be ok. I am sad to say that the majority of those who will not get far, end up in the slammer, on beneifts come from messed up broken homes, may be lucky if any parents work or even know their parents - their parents probably hated school themselves - and most know or are related to each other. They mostly live in the same area, hang out together and generally want to be da ganstas. I know this is a huge generalisation but those who don't want to learn because it is the done thing won't do well. I could spin so many depressing stories about kids who could have ended up in Russel group universities but ended up in some sort of managed out of school work program it is untrue.
Financial background has nothing to do with it either - there is one boy from a real sink estate off to Oxford hopefully.
well you changed your defintion only after questioning my maths so I think you may be using a convenient excuse tbh
The mid point in a range is not an average. Outliers could/will skew it ridiculously.
I'd expect the median pay to be well above the mid point of the range.
WHY?
Teachers using akysurfs numbers gives over 40,000 for mid range point [ 100,000 - 20,000 = 80,000 / 2 which is more than the median
If we use the private sector the chief execs salary high salary has the effect of making this mid range mark much higher than either mean or median rendering it useless or lacking validity as a measure of anything.
let's use Tesco [ and made up numbers] for example.
They employ from the minimum wage [shelf stackers PT say £100] to millions for the boss[ say £4 million making the mid point in the range about £2 million. It is not an average and is quite useless IMHO
It is saturday night I am not spending it doing maths.
The fella above is right as well about the products teachers work with.
well you changed your defintion only after questioning my maths so I think you may be using a convenient excuse
Just poor terminology - I apologise - though I expected the context where I was commenting on the idea of taking the mean of the range endpoints to get the median would have made it clear what I meant, and I questioned your maths because you also suggested the median was the mean of the range endpoints:
What do you think the median is if not the middle value? n+1 / 2
As for expecting the median to be above the midpoint of the range, that's based on the main pay scale range originally quoted - one which didn't include head teachers. That was after all the range which others were suggesting median would be the midpoint of. I agree with your analysis of taking the midpoint of the complete salaries in an organisation, though this wasn't what I was doing. My analysis was on the basis that you're likely to go up a main pay scale (which involves no additional responsibilities to make the top of) faster initially.
The link I gave makes it clear that most teachers will make £31,552 within 5 years, hence the median must be at least this given standard career lengths. Of course we do now have an answer about the real median, which suggests the majority of teachers are at least on the upper pay scale.
...anyway, having established the median, it's at least 30% above the national median for all jobs. Not bad money at all I'd suggest
except they have a post graduate qualification and as I said pages ago we need to compare like to like. No one disputes the fact that well qualified people get more money than poorly qualified people.
Again I suspect it will be low ish.
They do ok no one is disputing that I assume. However if graduates can do other things for much more money will they keep entering the profession. See the problem recruiting science and Maths tutors for example
except they have a post graduate qualification
PGCE != PhD
However if graduates can do other things for much more money will they keep entering the profession
More of a problem for engineering IME - if it was just about money I'd contemplate switching to teaching for the pay rise. Hardly a new thing that those interested in money who can land higher paid jobs don't do teaching - I'd like to think most teachers have that job because it's something they're into which pays the bills (the only other possible conclusion being that it's the only job they could get 😈 )
Post
Graduate
Certificate in
Education
bangaio speaks sense.
PGCE != PhD
I didnt do a PGCE I did the work based training route called GTP but it was certainly harder than my PhD or my Masters for that matter.
Now that the maths lesson is over, lets go over the conclusions.
1. A teacher in mid-range of pay-scale earns about 25-30% more than the middle income earner in a particular location.
2. This is fine as new entrants to teaching usually have a graduate level qualification supported by a conversion course (PGCE). We all agree its fair that skilled graduates earn more than those without a degree.
3. The 50%+ of the population who earn less than teachers are quite reasonably annoyed that they are guaranteeing teachers defined benefit pensions. Unlike private pensions there is no defined "pot" to back the scheme.
dmjb4 - apart from you grossly overestimate what the teacher earns and this:-
The teachers pension scheme has been revised. Part of this revision is [b]a cap on the employers contributions[/b] so any future shortfall will be made up by[b] increased employee contributions.
[/b]
A reasonable somethingion for points 1 &2 but they/we are not guaranteeing the pension. The last agreement states quite clearly that nay shortfall has to be met by the members - teachers
[deflection mode]
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11446830 ]Now the old Police pension [/url] - that looks like the one to have - 2/3rds final salary after 30yrs, payable at 50. Firefighter version not too shabby too but you have to hang around another 5yrs to pick it up - that's a lot of tea and biscuits for a fireman, it's got a health risk you know. There again the armed forced pension is non contributory so effectively worth a 6%+ pay rise throughout your working life.... Decisions, decisions what other cushy job could I have done?
[/deflection mode]
How do people still not get it?
The ex-forces guy I work with is building up his Teachers Pension while also drawing on his Forces Pension.
Of course, he was shot at considerably more than I will be.
Of course, he was shot at considerably more than I will be.
I've been stabbed 😮
At school?
I've been threatened with a chair and swore at a few times but nothing like that.
yeah at school stabbed in the head, blood everywhere 😯
I've had to deck a kid who picked up a chisel and was in the process of charging towards a group of students inadvertently blocking his way after a fight. Not my finest moment but on the plus side I did get ANOTHER 2 WEEKS OFF WORK whilst they reviewed the case and made sure I hadn't just exacted vengeance for him being a known arse. It was tough finding a time to fit it in between all my other holidays I can tell you!
In spite of LEA rules stating teachers had to wear ties (I know there's another thread) my stepfather refused on the grounds that the first thing the more aggressive student would go for in a toe to toe was the tie, didn't go down too well. Rules eh? 🙄
I remember the excluded school headcase coming to the summer fair and going for the deputy head with a golf club. Turned out the deputy head was pretty handy...
apart from you grossly overestimate what the teacher earns and this
We've just done what a teachers earns TJ - median is 30% or more above the national pay median for all jobs.
anagallis_arvensis - MemberOf course, he was shot at considerably more than I will be.
I've been stabbed
Was it by Akysurf?
We've just done what a teachers earns TJ - median is 30% or more above the national pay median for all jobs.
Which includes waitresses, shelf stackers and other minimum wagers, not to mention part-timers.
What a great statistic. How to entice people into teaching in one easy step.
yep we agreed it was not comparing like with like as they have a degree and a post graduate qualification. No one is surprised they earn above the average If we look at the median graduate salary [where a degree is a pre requisite] this will show techers perfome less well compared to their post graduate peers
It is a distortion / poor comparison to compare teachers to the general population and it works for doctors, lawyers , accountants, vets etc- it is no surprise that skill level and qualification is refelected in salary level.
Why are you still doing it aracer? why do you think it is a fair comparison?
Now the old Police pension - that looks like the one to have - 2/3rds final salary after 30yrs, payable at 50. Firefighter version not too shabby too but you have to hang around another 5yrs to pick it up
Yeah but the firefighter will live longer to enjoy it. I mean, the cop's'll just spend that 30 years sitting in the canteen drinking sweet tea, but the firefighters'll be superfit having spent 35 years playing volleyball.
</trolling>
Why are you still doing it aracer?
Because it fits his narrative.
The Fire Service Pension changed in 2006, those started before then are protected though. I'm sure the Police one changed too.
The 50%+ of the population who earn less than teachers are quite reasonably annoyed that they are guaranteeing teachers defined benefit pensions. Unlike private pensions there is no defined "pot" to back the scheme.
Ah that's some maths there. Can't beat some made up ideas.
like what you did Konabunny 😆
Might even be true in the real world - coppers dont live as long as firefighters