You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I get the feeling that a lot of public spending these days is for contracted out services, so into the pockets of donors rather than actual front line services.
Not a chance of that mate without electoral reform and without a new leftish party.
Word. Liberalism is dead in UK politics.
you’d think mainland Europe are the pinnacle of public services and efficiency
In comparison to what we've got after 13 years of austerity, I'd settle for functioning. I don't necessarily want the best of the most efficient, just service that do the basic thing that they're supposed to achieve, and right now, I don't think any one could point at a public service in the UK that doesn't have some sort of major systemic failure associated with it.
I get the feeling that a lot of public spending these days is for contracted out services
Wouldn't be as bad if we actually saw full value for said contracts.
See PPE scams, not fussed if their mates get the money, defo fussed when they fail to produce without accountability.
In comparison to what we’ve got after 13 years of austerity, I’d settle for functioning. I don’t necessarily want the best of the most efficient, just service that do the basic thing that they’re supposed to achieve, and right now, I don’t think any one could point at a public service in the UK that doesn’t have some sort of major systemic failure associated with it.
Where exactly are you setting the parameters, we're far from being in a disfunctional country, we have a health service that does a great job, could it do better, yes, but it's still functioning for the many, same with education, even transport, what we need is continuous improvement, not famine and feast, and we need changes that aren't just at the political level, we change parties and politicians all the time, but the permanent structure that supports them rarely changes.
Where exactly are you setting the parameters
Northern/Western Europe, I think.
, but it’s still functioning for the many,
Its really not. I recently got listed for a routine consultant appointment - a year+ wait and that is in Scotland which is outperfoming england. 1 in 10 of the UK population is on a waiting list for treatment. Many will die before they reach the end of the queue
We now have a two tier system where anyone with money goes private and those without go without.
Deliberate tory policy to create that of course as many of them are bribed by private healthcare companies. Shame Streeting is as well and is going to continue in the same way
It looks like it's functioning if you don't need any services. I've got kids in school, it's definitely struggling. My wife is a TA in a primary school in a deprived area, it's clearly fundamentally ****ed. They've got under-trained teachers with no proper skill or resources in how to actually get the best out of kids, and the head has no budget to do anything about it and has to spend all her time dealing with pastoral care issues instead of working out how to teach kids better even if she had any money.
As for the health service - my kids have had mental health issues, I've not even bothered to go to a GP because we cannot get appointments, and they're so far down the list of priority cases they wouldn't get seen ever even if we had a referral so there's no point in even bothering. So yeah it's failing.
I rode today down on the levels and the drainage ditches are full of rubbish and domestic appliances. There should be law enforcement dealing with it but they just don't have the resources to deal with non-urgent stuff. And the council doesn't have the resources to go and clean it up.
I don’t think any one could point at a public service in the UK that doesn’t have some sort of major systemic failure associated with it.
Bingo. Absolutely everything is ****ed, and hanging on by its fingernails. But the well off just don't see it because they aren't exposed to it.
but it’s still functioning for the many, same with education
Not sure that's true. I suspect education is right on the precipice. I used to have a good number of teacher friends, but almost all of them have left because of the working conditions - directly from underfunding leading to overworking. Add to that literally crumbling schools and the latest figures reporting 22.5% of students missing 10%+ of their lessons and it's hard to argue it's functioning for the many, imo
In my kids' secondary school the kids have substitute teachers in some subject or other most days, who aren't prepared for the lessons. It's chaos.
Everything. Is. Totally. ****ed.
How's that for a Labour campaign slogan?
I will just say that the NHS here anyway remains utterly fabulous for actute stuff. I had investigations to exclude bowel cancer as i was in sub acute obstruction. 2x xrays, 2x scans, one urgent appointment with the surgical team. all within a week or so. then they found a cyst on my heart. Consultant appointment within a couple of weeks to check that out - benign and not worth operating on
its stuff thats non urgent just gets shoved to the back of the queue and never dealt with
Don't know why, but I seem to have a totally different perspective to the NHS. I didn't even know who my doctor was when my thyroid decided to go into overdrive 2yrs ago. Fast referral to RVI Newcastle, asked to participate in a clinical trial and since then have had direct access to one of the best professors in his field; to the point where he emails me to check on progress between monitoring appointments. I've been in the care of an absolutely fantastic team, despite the trial finishing 12 months ago. There doesn't appear to be much wrong here.
Plus, all three grandkids, 20, 16 and 10 are experiencing what appears to be a fulfilling education, all doing well, eldest at Uni. And that's in Carlisle, as far oop north as it gets really.
There doesn’t appear to be much wrong here.
So you had a good experience - great. Just because you didn't experience the bad stuff, doesn't mean it's not happening.
My daughter was refusing any and all injections, including vaccinations. How the **** was I supposed to get help for that? Things that could have far reaching consequences in the future. Do you think medical professionals have time to work on that when they're flat out dealing with urgent cases? We managed to work through it eventually with some help and some money. Not from the NHS, because I couldn't figure out how to get it and realsied they have all the urgent things to deal with.
Plus, all three grandkids, 20, 16 and 10 are experiencing what appears to be a fulfilling education, all doing well, eldest at Uni. And that’s in Carlisle, as far oop north as it gets really.
Good grief. There will always be kids doing well, who will succeed whatever the situation. But you should spend a week in my wife's school and see how the system is failing those at the other end. You have NO idea mate, seriously.
Most of the people I talk to in the clinics seem happy enough. I don't think I've heard anyone twisting about the standard of care they've received. I lost both parents and a sister recently, different causes, same excellent care and case management.
C'mon man, I'm sharing my experiences, as are you. Just providing a bit of balance.
Brian - thats the sort of stuff its still good at. You were acutely ill. The NHS responds well to that. If you have a chronic or non urgent issue its fubar. also being on a clinical trial gives you priority.
French tax is notoriously high but doesn’t seem too bad for a noticeably better quality of life (roads and railways that work for example). I pay 23% of everything I earn as the French equivalent of national insurance - health care, social cover, pensions* etc. Actual tax (not in a higher tax band) was a few % more. Overall less than 30% but on total income rather than having a tax free allowance. Where we live council tax equivalent is about 40% of the home we left in England. *Pensions are about double UK state pension. So swings and roundabouts.
Employers pay a lot of tax in France - you can reckon 1.45 x wage (UK 1.11 x wage). Payroll taxes go towards things like local transport. French productivity levels always seem like a mystery to brits but I suspect that you think carefully about employing people and automate as much as you can to get value for wages.
Anyway, it’s interesting and whenever my friends complain about the government I point out how much worse it could be if they were across the channel…
Good to hear that it works for some!
I was referred to the rheumatology clinic in Oct 2021. In 2 years since, I've had one appointment plus a 10 minute telephone consultation. I went private for an MRI because I couldn't face an extra year's wait for painkilling medication. I fully support the NHS but it's absolutely screwed down here.
Fair enough tj. My wife's coeliac, that's chronic and non-urgent, but she has robust follow up and monitoring from her doctor. I'm really sorry that I can't prescribe to the mantra that everything's screwed, in my limited experience, and my wife's a paediatric nurse with an opinion also; all this criticism of the health service is playing into the hands of populist government and privatisation IMHO.
I have been both a patient and a nurse and I can tell you its far worse now than at any time in the 40 years I worked in it. Figures also back that up. 1 in 10 of the UK population on a waiting list for treatment
People sneering at New Labour not being proper Labour need to give their heads a wobble. Who were the best two PMs over the last 40 years? Can you imagine the carnage if the 2008 financial crisis had happened on the tories' watch?
Can you imagine the carnage if the 2008 financial crisis had happened on the tories’ watch?
I imagine that it would have been incomparably worse if it had occurred under a Tory government.
Better than the Tories does not mean that New Labour were "proper Labour". In fact it was precisely to make the distinction that they insisted on calling themselves "New Labour".
Besides certain right-wing policies New Labour implemented would have been harder for a Tory government to implement, eg, Labour in opposition opposed, without exception, every single privatisation carried out by Tory governments, however when New Labour were in government there was no one to oppose their privatisations.
New Labour did with complete ease stuff which the Tories would have struggled with due to parliamentry opposition, including going to war.
I see both sides of the NHS here.
The good bits via my parents, particularly my dad who is riddles with cancer and is 84 so always in and out. Mum is younger but has suffered with a lifetime of illness that has ravaged her, she looks like she's 75-80 when she's a good decade younger. Their care is great with little waiting times and the staff doing whatever they can to help but the cracks due to lack of funding and services just not being there is very obvious.
The bad bits are my side. Cannot get a GP appointment as there aren't any appointments available. Haven't had a dentist for nearly 12 years now as there's no space anywhere for me. I have lived with two cracked teeth for well over 5 years now and nothing has been done about them, they're starting to rot now and it's only a matter of time before they need urgent work. I have two or three other things wrong with me right now that aren't being dealt with at all due to me being unable to access the NHS service at all. One is being dealt with via my local pharmacy but they're struggling with all the people coming to them, thankfully the practitioner is an ex-GP so can get access to stuff that other pharmacies can't, without that I'd be lost for healthcare access.
I have little direct experience of the education system and everything to do with kids but from what friends and family tell me it's on its knees.
Everything is completely broken and about to totally collapse.
Everything. Is. Totally. ****.
How’s that for a Labour campaign slogan?
The press would somehow turn it into Labour admitting it's knackered and it would somehow end up being their fault!
The fundimental reason for higher tax burden is that we have an aging population who aren't working and need lots of expensive care. This will continue to be a larger and larger issue and not one either party can solve unless they bump the retirement age right up, shoot some old people or something else equally unappealing.
Comparison to the 50s when almost no one retired isn't really relevant, comparison to other European countries is better.
I don't think France is working particularly any better than here. The roads which are better are really expensive and trains are hardly cheap. There is a huge amount of poverty, inner city deprevation and violence. It's a nice place at times, but doesn't have a particular edge over us
I will say it again its the "Minford" grand plan... 10% well off, 20% ok and 70% piss poor... its a long term project more or less being delivered on plan.
I don’t think France is working particularly any better than here. The roads which are better are really expensive and trains are hardly cheap. There is a huge amount of poverty, inner city deprevation and violence. It’s a nice place at times, but doesn’t have a particular edge over us
Trains are much cheaper in France. Much. also more modern and fast in general. all countries have issues and none are perfect.
France also has a much better functioning health service and far better cycling provision.
I did write out a long explanation about tax payers not funding government etc.
But here is a much better explanation of where we are:
https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1679390628608901120?t=25MBa8l-jXgWHQ9-4ngzLw&s=19
The state comes first via government spending- that generates the growth. We are on the arse end of 40 years of believing that growth occurs from the private sector and thus creates more tax to spend. That's impossible, as the private sector can't create the pound. Only the monopoly currency issuer of the pound - government and the BoE can do this. The private sector can only swill around what has been spent into existence by the government.
Both political parties misunderstand (perhaps deliberately) the purpose of taxation. Taxation deletes money from the economy. All government spending is new money creation. The government neither has nor doesn't have money - it's spent into existence via the consolidated fund (the government's current account.) At the BoE.
There is no mechanism that allows your taxation to reach that account for spending.
So it follows, taxation is the system that gives the government power to create demand for its currency. You need pounds to pay your tax.
Tories and tax cuts - well that's another joke isn't it. Cutting tax doesn't generate growth, impossible - as the investment that a company would make is already tax efficient and 100% deductible. Cutting tax just causes more hoarding of money.
The Tories managed - during the period we call austerity to actually spend a fortune on something. There was technically no austerity. Just cuts for most of us. This is the issue with the Tories, they wield the public purse like a capitalist bully pretending there is no money for the rest of us whilst doling out the cash for their mates.
We are simply not getting private growth or anything like a proper green spend if the government tries to balance its books. The act of balancing books leaves no net public money in economy.
Political will and resources are the only limitation.
we have a health service that does a great job, could it do better, yes, but it’s still functioning for the many
From my own family's recent interactions with the NHS I'd say it's a mixed picture at best.
Some services, in some areas are functioning adequately, others have broken down or are in the process of doing so.
It's a geographical and need based lottery. Things might seem to be working fine if you happen to only need something that conveniently happens to be available in your area.
NHS dentistry is all but a fictional concept at this point.
On a recent thread, Someone flippantly pointed out that health insurance was the obvious solution (for the individual), that is precisely the mindset the Tories want the great unwashed to adopt.
Worst of all I am concerned that even a two term+ Labour government won't be able to fix the NHS now.
Schools are in a similar situation, we've managed to land our kids in a good one (so far), but the problems of being starved for funding and spiralling workloads are again driving good staff away from the the profession and/or into the private sector...
I hear Truss is still popular with the party core, and she likes to talk about small government and 'Growth' but the party has laid waste to healthcare and education, two key pillars for growth you would have thought, it's looking increasingly like they've set their sights on knackering infrastructure too so you have to ask when is enough, enough?
I can't imagine why anyone would vote Tory at the next GE other than outright spite or simple stupidity...
This will continue to be a larger and larger issue and not one either party can solve unless they bump the retirement age right up, shoot some old people or something else equally unappealing.
Tax rich pensioners. Or more accurately, tax wealth above a certain threshold with no exceptions based on age.
Worst of all I am concerned that even a two term+ Labour government won’t be able to fix the NHS now.
They have no intention of doing so. they have made that clear. Streetings answer is more privitisation. He is a paid shill for private health companies
We no longer have a labour party in anything but name
Tax rich pensioners. Or more accurately, tax wealth above a certain threshold with no exceptions based on age.
I am quite happy with this even tho I personally would lose out greatly. the concentration of wealth in the hands of the already rich is disgusting and the fact I can create more wealth for myself simply because I own property at the expense of people without assets is utterly absurd ( and I mean wealth in assets not income)
I do what I can to be decent about this and to provide a high quality home for someone at vaguely reasonable cost. IN the last 3 years I have forgone around £10 000 in profit I could have made at the expense of my tenants.
All that said the wealth I have is far less than many folk. Our whole society is geared towards this- concentrating wealth in the hands of the wealthy which is why we have such an unequal country. Its disgusting that a country as rich as the UK has such amounts of poverty in it
I find the best way to think of things is not in tax but in net earnings as gives a better perspective.
Let's say, as an example I earn a nice round 100,000 and pay a nice round 40,000 in Tax/NI (checks johndoh is not on the thread)
I could look at it that I am losing 40,000 of 'my' money each year or I could look at it that I am earning 60,000 a year.
Just think about the latter and what a fortunate positon to be in rather than moaning that the government is taking all my money.
Tax rich pensioners
Yeah that'll work, how many rich pensioners are there? Probably not many, and any that are, are money savy, being rich they tend to be, and will find multiple ways to minimise the tax. What a great way to piss off those who actually arent contributing to the growing problem as theyve saved to look after themselves.
The reality is we have an ever growing number of economically inactive people and no funds for them (unless we can convince the world Rone is right and money is all an illusion). The massive cost of social care is whats in part to blame for the collapse in infrastructure, money yhat would have gone back into things which last is being used to support people to live.
Some stark choices coming down the road and no politician is prepared to make them so we are aimlessly walking a catastrophy. My generation is going to be a nightmare when we retire, interest only mortgages, mortgages well into our 70s, more people renting, no pension provision, living on consumer credit. All driven by government failure to manage the cost of living. Ever increasing taxes are not the answer, sorting the property market out so house prices reduce would be a good start and in effect a tax on wealth.
Just think about the latter and what a fortunate positon to be in rather than moaning that the government is taking all my money.
Personally, the being taxed bit isn’t the problem. It’s the fact it’s being so poorly managed and spend, and in a lot of cases directed straight into the pockets of Tory donors.
Yeah that’ll work, how many rich pensioners are there? Probably not many, and any that are, are money savy, being rich they tend to be, and will find multiple ways to minimise the tax. What a great way to piss off those who actually arent contributing to the growing problem as theyve saved to look after themselves.
Actually its a huge number and they have hoarded wealth that is no longer churning around the economy.
Ever increasing taxes are not the answer, sorting the property market out so house prices reduce would be a good start and in effect a tax on wealth.
Which would target those pensioners like me hoarding wealth. Get the flip on with it.
What a great way to piss off those who actually arent contributing to the growing problem as theyve saved to look after themselves.
It's taxing based on the ability to pay, rather than age. There are working people (and many poorer pensioners) struggling to feed themselves and their families, while some rich pensioners are living the high life. Yes, they may well have worked their arses off to have that wealth... but others are working their arses off to stay afloat. Tax based on ability to pay. Reaching a decent age shouldn't exempt you from paying your way.
I want lower taxes because it feels like what tax I do pay gets squandered and syphoned off to Tory cronies.
If it was used effectively and efficiently to improve the country, I’d happily pay more tax.
In simple terms, this.
Tories saying I'll pay less tax - yeah right, do one. Labour / another party saying I'll pay more tax to sort out the mess, bring utilities, public transport etc back into public ownership, fund council investment etc - you have my support. I'd be paying to have some hope, something the tories have long proven they won't offer anyone but their donors and the 0.5%.
He is a paid shill for private health companies
Wes Streeting has said about using the private sector
"No doubt the next Labour government may have to use private sector capacity to bring down NHS waiting lists, and I won't shirk that for a minute to get people better health outcomes.
"But I will be pretty furious at the costs involved, because it shouldn't be the case that because Tory governments run down the NHS, we have to spend more taxpayers money than would be necessary in the private sector because we haven't sorted out the public sector."
When you say things like "he's a paid shill" it makes you sound like a conspiracy nutter and obscures any rational discussion that we might want or need to have about how we provide healthcare that is free at the point of care over the next decade or so to catch up with the needs of patients that are increasingly elderly and have complex needs who have been otherwise let down by the last Tory administration.
If after years of a Labour administration and we're all having to shell out exorbitant co-pays or fund our own private medical insurance, then yeah go for it, and call individuals anything you want, up until that point, let's try at least to be rational.
The title of this thread is incorrect and needs changing to Tax & the Politicians
The Labour leader vowed to reintroduce the top tax band for the country’s highest earners last September. Starmer criticised Conservative ministers for making the “hugely divisive” move of handing out a tax cut to the well-off.
But in an interview with the Telegraph, Starmer then suggested he wanted to lower taxation, but was not “looking to the lever of taxation”. Labour says it is still committed to scrapping non-dom tax status and cracking down on tax avoidance.
They have also rowed back on the commitment to tax the rich more committing to keep the current top tax rate
People sneering at New Labour not being proper Labour need to give their heads a wobble.
I hope that wasn't aimed at me - I'm certainly not sneering.
I’m really sorry that I can’t prescribe to the mantra that everything’s screwed, in my limited experience, and my wife’s a paediatric nurse with an opinion also; all this criticism of the health service is playing into the hands of populist government and privatisation IMHO.
Well no, we just need to make it clear WHY everything is ****ed. It's because Toryism ****s things up.
Nickc. Streeting ( and a few other labour politicians as well as loads of tories) are paid by private health companies to advance the cause of those private healthcare companies. Private healthcare involvement is always more expensive and does not increase capacity. There is no justification for more privitisation which is what he is saying he will do. Because of the numbers of folk now having to use private healthcare there is now significant waiting lists for private as well
Call a spade a spade.
It's always tax cuts rather than wage rises.
It’s always tax cuts rather than wage rises.
Well yes in many ways thats basic economics. Increase wages = increase inflation
They have also rowed back on the commitment to tax the rich more committing to keep the current top tax rate
i know we've had this argument many times, but if you really are rich, it's unlikely that you'll be paying the 'top tax rate'.
but if you really are rich,
But what do you mean by 'rich' 😉
Well yes in many ways thats basic economics. Increase wages = increase inflation
Utter bollocks. You're right though, it is basic economics, very basic economics to the point of not of having a clue. 🙄
FD - I imagine you're referring to the long discredited Phillips Curve.
Wage rises can be inflationary and can be done without inflation. It depends on many other factors which it is including who gets the wage rises
But what do you mean by ‘rich’
For the purposes of Tax it is anyone who has a lot of money and not paid via PAYE so they can choose whatever options are best to limit their tax burden whereas those of us on PAYE cannot do that.
Imagine if PAYE didn't exist and we all got paid cash in hand. How many people who moan about wealthy people dodging tax (including me) would probably be dodging a bit themselves....
to me rich is the top 10% of earners plus those who have large amounts of wealth stashed away
to many folk its those who have a higher income than them - no matter what percentile you fit in
so if you earn £100 000a year you are in the richest few % of the country but you may well not realise that and think rich only applies to those earning £250000 pa whereas if you earn £20 000 pa anyone earning £50 000 pa seems rich
to me rich is the top 10% of earners
Hmm. I'm in the top 10% of earners and whilst I am currently comfortable and grateful for that I don't think a 3 bed semi in a suburban housing development is where rich people live, generally.
But as you point out, rich is hard to define.
It does mean you are richer than 90% of earners tho. thats precisely the point I was making. "rich" is always those significantly richer than you same as "old" is at least 10 years older than you are
^^^^
which is why the 1% can get away with paying **** all, as the 99% argue about whether they are rich or not.
No not really, the rich get away with it because their income does not come via PAYE, which means they can be creative with it. They aren't the only ones who evade tax, but the impact is a lot bigger.
Exactly. As a PAYE person what option do I have (not that I am saying I want any) to dodge tax. I can max out my pension and other benefits but not much else whereas if I were getting the same income from elsewhere I may have all sorts of creative options at my disposal.
Yeah that’ll work, how many rich pensioners are there? Probably not many,
We’re rapidly approaching the point where there will be more pensioners than anyone else, plus this places a greater burden on health and social services. Reduced numbers of people of working age is detrimental to the economy - either you increase taxes to businesses and individuals or grow the economy and increase immigration. Paradoxically, the Tories have managed to increase the tax burden, whilst flat-lining the economy, reducing the number of workers and destroying public services - quite an achievement!
It's all a bit pointless whataboutery but I generally stick to the following rules on wealth/class etc...
Poor - Struggling to pay for food/bills/rent and having to rely on debt/benefits/crime or take multiple low paying jobs.
Working class - Having to work for a living with no other form of income or safety net (eg bank of mum and dad, significant savings etc)
Middle class - Need to work for a living but with the security of non-work income and the flexibility to choose when and where to work.
Rich - Not having to work (even though you might choose to) because you've already got enough money to live.
I'm somewhere between working and middle class by these definitions. I'm certainly not rich even though I'm in the top 10% of earners.
We’re rapidly approaching the point where there will be more pensioners than anyone else, plus this places a greater burden on health and social services.
don't disagree with that but the numbers of pensioners with significant liquid assets is small, and shinking. A lot of them have expensive houses (difficult to tax), large defined benefits pensions (taxed at payout already), but few are really making money in other ways. You can ramp up inheritance tax, sure, but the vast vast majority of pensioners have very little, and the number of rich ones is dropping as pension changes mean most of those hitting 60 have much less than those hitting the same age 15 years ago.
5lab - tax the hoarded wealth then even if its in the property.
I’m somewhere between working and middle class by these definitions. I’m certainly not rich even though I’m in the top 10% of earners.
that is the most bonkers statement I have seen on wealth on here. top 10% of earners and barely making it into middle class?
Its just illustrates my point that no matter the wealth you have ( and you need to take into account assets as well of course) you never feel rich even when by any objective standard you are
Yep and by those definitions I am closer to working class as I don't have non work income or the flexibility on where to work.
Odd definitions and a bit irrelevant on what is "rich". It is all perspective though isn't it as tj says. I don't really feel rich but I a clearly am compared to someone working on minimum wage.
that is the most bonkers statement I have seen on wealth on here. top 10% of earners and barely making it into middle class?
Yup. A mortgage, energy bills at ridiculous levels, two kids at college, the general cost of living doesn't leave much. Certainly not enough to build up significant savings. If I lost my job and didn't find another within a couple of months I'd be utterly f***** (unlikely thankfully). I've got quite a bit of equity in the house like most people who've been home owners over the past 15-20 years but that's not much use for supporting a family. I'm not complaining, I'm very comfortable compared to most people but that's because I work and I'm lucky enough to have a decently paid job. Take that away there's not much else.
This country is still class obsessed isn't it. We need to get over that, or talking about what 'rich' means. Makes no difference whether I'm relatively a bit better or worse off compared to you if we're both using the same train network or sending our kids to the same state schools. We exist in that world and not the world created by and for the most wealthy.
Someone said something memorable once about how the most successful societies are where children of manual labourers and business owners mix in the same school and the wealthy use public transport. And how paying fair taxes was seen as an honour, you're proud of the extent your success benefits others (back to the earlier point on how it depends what the govt do with those taxes). Sounds utopian compared to the mess the UK feels like it's in and has been in as long as I've been aware of any of this stuff. It does happen to some extent but the UK's always been upwards-obsessed when it comes to class. I blame having a royal family but that's another thread..
All this division and class stuff is no more helpful than the culture war stuff that gets dredged up. Same divide and distract results. We're all born into different situations and have different paths in life, it's mostly a problem when we begin treating people differently or denying opportunity to people because of it.
If we're to have a global economy where the world creates a situation that someone can benefit from to the extent of being worth 100s of millions, billions even? Pay the world something back, damnit.
top 10% of earners and barely making it into middle class?
Well it's because as you say the distribution of wealth is so unequal. I mean, the graph of people per income band is not linear. There's a huge chunk of 'normal' people of varying degrees of wealth, and then there are a very few properly rich people with many times more money than the people even a short distance further down the scale.
it’s mostly a problem when we begin treating people differently or denying opportunity to people because of it.
Which is why it's still important. The working class get absolutely shafted in this country, the middle class are largely left to stand on their own two feet, and the rich are completely pampered and supported by the state to get richer. If there wasn't this unfairness in what different groups of people get out of the state then no one would care that much about what group they were in or how much tax they pay.
which is why the 1% can get away with paying **** all, as the 99% argue about whether they are rich or not.
Politics in the UK is all about this ^^
40 million people could vote for a government which could change everything.
Instead people bicker if they want a Blue/Red government (both main parties are broadly the same), and are distracted by blaming the poor, immigrants, China, or who they are working class whilst owning their own house.
@dazh, while I agree, on the point about use of 'class' to describe people maybe I see it differently as I don't care much for the inverted snobbery or actual snobbery that can come with it. All I care about is that we have a government who do pander to the most wealthy and support anyone who's helping create the division and false blame that the rest get bogged down with.
If there wasn’t this unfairness in what different groups of people get out of the state then no one would care that much about what group they were in or how much tax they pay.
On that point, yes I expect more happily socialist countries will be less class-aspirant or simply wouldn't talk about 'classes'. But I think culturally the UK has long been about upward class aspiration, something that's not all the same as just wanting to be successful. But that's just a perception, subjective stuff. Right now I can't think of a healthy and fairly socialist society that uses class to talk about people. Class is part of the divisions we have in the UK.
Working class – Having to work for a living with no other form of income or safety net (eg bank of mum and dad, significant savings etc)
Middle class – Need to work for a living but with the security of non-work income and the flexibility to choose when and where to work.
Rich – Not having to work (even though you might choose to) because you’ve already got enough money to live.
I think you could really stretch some definitions, but those categories are really out-dated. I guess technically a lot of us could not work and rely on the benefits system for an existance - perhaps that makes us all rich? however the standard of living you want means you have to work - so we're all working class. The above definition would mean most people raise through the classes as they age, which isn't the case.
the most successful societies are where children of manual labourers and business owners mix in the same school and the wealthy use public transport.
there's probably some merit to this - if you live outside of london the majority of richer folks will pay the majority of the taxes and yet the poorer folks will tend to make the most of the services. This will always distance the payers from those getting value, and create a divide.
I think its different in London etc because things like public transport are used by pretty much everyone
however the standard of living you want means you have to work – so we’re all working class.
The traditional definition of working class is if your only source of income is selling your labour to employers. That definition still holds for most of us, with the caveat that a lot of us have a small amount of savings to fall back on and equity in a property which we could ultimately sell. In reality though working is the only option, so that makes most people working class. Of course there are poor working class and well-off working class people within that but it's still a useful description of where people are in the economic hierarchy.
Like I said before, I think we're doing tax wrong.
If public services in Glasgow (for example) are paid for by the wealthy of Richmond, why would they care if it's any good?
The people of Richmond only care if their local service is any good (assuming they need it).
The reason people are poor in Glasgow is down to the crappy prospects in that area (excess labour supply), not the fact they pay 20% income tax, instead of 10%.
People are better off in Richmond 'cos they live within 20mins of a £100k/yr job in the city.
Have a read of the Rebel Accountant book about tax havens and offshore wealth.
Or, check how rich you are here:
https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i
What has changed in the last couple of decades is the emergence of MEGARICH ie people who own 100m yachts, have their own private bankers, 10 supercars. Own an oil company etc. There's probably less than 10,000 of these people globally, but they have ludicrous amounts of wealth.
This country is still class obsessed isn’t it.
I think this country thinks its the only country that obsessed with class, when in fact you can go to any community on the planet and the habitants there will be able to tell you the societal pecking order. In that respect; we're still group based primates, and it's hard to break that programming
if you live outside of london the majority of richer folks will pay the majority of the taxes and yet the poorer folks will tend to make the most of the services. This will always distance the payers from those getting value, and create a divide.
I think its different in London etc because things like public transport are used by pretty much everyone
Do the rich pay the actual gross majority and do the poorer actually use more cost and services?
Genuine Q - I don't know. I suspect if subsidies or tax breaks to private schools, the amount spent on roads and car use and things like that are included it's not that clear. The perception that it is the way you say creates divide but I think that may be just perception.
The other way of looking at it can be, feel grateful if you're able to earn enough to pay higher rate taxes and be happy that those less well off get the support needed - society takes all of us to participate, takes a whole society to create a system that some profit greatly from and we can't all be winners in the rat race. oc all that assumes the tax is spent well .. I don't believe we have that right now but I also won't claim to understand the system. I just see the growing gap and don't believe the trickle-down BS.
In that respect; we’re still group based primates, and it’s hard to break that programming
Totally. Plenty of other countries are this way. People want to be successful and provide for family. But being selfish at the expense of others is only what I think happens in larger societies under pressure (real or manufactured/perceived), something about how groups behave as they get larger?
Do the rich pay the actual gross majority and do the poorer actually use more cost and services?
Difficult to define but according to the ONS you need to be in the top 40% of household incomes to be a net contributor, obviously depends on personal circumstance so a low income household with no kids and healthy people could be a net contributor but in general terms more than half of the population are net recipients. Of the net contributors they also end up paying for a chunk of services outside the state, e.g. private health care, dentistry, possibly education etc. Those in the top 20% pay more tax than everyone else combined (and remember most of them are not uber wealth but PAYE wage slaves)
Like a few others on here I'm in the top 10% of salaries, I don't feel rich and according to Daz I'm working class as I don't have any other income to fall back on, I rely on my PAYE income. Like everyone else I'm at the mercy of the terrible state of public services, had to fork out £4k for an operation for my son earlier this year after waiting for 6 months for an initial NHS consultation which we still haven't had a year on from diagnosis. It does grate when I see how much tax I
pay for such terrible services.
Until I see a government capable of providing some level of service for the tax I pay I'm definitely not up for paying anymore.
Until I see a government capable of providing some level of service for the tax I pay I’m definitely not up for paying anymore.
I think this is the crux of the issue, high(er) tax isn't nessesarilty a problem, assuming it's spent properly and efficiently, and without skims being taken off the top at every opportunity, and big contracts being awarded to lobbyists/political donors.
Public Vs private healthcare is a good example.
Liquid paracetomol suspension for a dog, prescribed by a vet = £20 odd quid.
Bottle of calpol from tesco (same frigging thing for arguments sake*) = about £3.50
*some artifical sweeteners are toxic to dogs, Xylotol, for example, so you have to be very careful.
I do love how these threads go a bit mental on here, not only are we pigeon holing people by their P60 statement, or that mainland Europe is indeed the land of plenty, or that there's a fair few on this thread who state they're in the top 10%, so rich, which means they're secret squirrel tories, it's just a load of stereotypes and lets blame the tories and the rich yet again, i'm away to read the britain is a third world country thread again to cheer me up some more 🤣