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Figured this might well deserve a separate thread -
At the conference today both Liz Truss & Jeremy **** Hunt have said the want tax to be cut as it's too high.
Across the country every single government organisation is cutting back & services are suffering because of this. Where is the additional money going to come from to sort the mess out?
Or am I missing something?!
Basically the conservatives are in an ideological bind.
They've not had any new economic ideas since neoliberalism and supply side reform (Reaganism and Thatcherism), and that's been discredited. Trickle down economics, gains through privatisation and tax cuts as stimulus have all been shown to be magical thinking.
That's a big part of the reason that Brexit happened. Without any cohesive ideology, it created a vacuum where the idea of Brexit could take hold, especially amongst the economically illiterate.
Brexit is now done (ha ha!), so what else have they got to offer?
The truth is, not a lot. The party of the motorist?
So if they're not cutting taxes, then what are they for? Currently we're paying relatively high taxes (for the UK) and not getting much for it, because austerity crashed the economy.
If they're not cutting taxes, then there's very little to differentiate them from the Labour party, because they literally have no other ideas. I think it was Ian Duncan Smith who last said this out loud.
In reality, we're a relatively low tax country, compared to our European neighbours. That's why things are falling apart.
Just as the Conservatives can't admit that Brexit has been disastrous, for the same reasons they can't admit that austerity has also been disastrous, nor can they own up to privatisation not working. If they do, they're screwed.
Does anyone, other than her own self image, give a shit what Liz Truss thinks about economic matters?
I also think it’s very much ‘we want to cut tax’ rather than ‘we are cutting tax’
So if we're low tax compared to other European countries how much more tax do they pay?
They are suggesting lower tax means more people will invest / set up new businesses / etc so instead of 1 x £100 we'd have 100 x £1.
In reality they couldn't care less about the economy or the country, they just want to pay less on the money they and their mates already own and / or generate.
The idea is that additional tax revenue will be raised as the economy grows thus allowing increased spending. complete baloney of course but thats the theory
Where is the additional money going to come from to sort the mess out?
Same place it always come from. It will be spent into existence by the govt of the day once it decides it needs to do something.
The idea is that additional tax revenue will be raised as the economy grows thus allowing increased spending.
It's the other way round. You can't have growth without govt spending. Govt spending comes first, then you get growth, then they can tax it back.
So is the shit finally hitting the fan? Are we seeing the end of an era? Will Tories be down and out for good, just like old Labour was in 1979?
? Is it something to do with the what I perceive to be the strange behaviour of general election voters who repeatedly seem to want better public services and yet expect to get them by them individually paying less tax.
Apparently, near Xmas, the top turkeys get together and try to abolish higher taxes. Xmas
"So if we’re low tax compared to other European countries how much more tax do they pay?"
In the netherlands about 20 - 30% more IIRC. A few years ago me and my brother in law were earning similar amounts. he was paying more tax than I was despite the fact he had a family to support and I was a single man
One thing to remember when you look at comparisons Europe wide is that most countries you pay for your healthcare on top of taxation - perhaps only above a certain earnings limit. So if you see a comparison stating we have similar levels of taxation its bogus really as you really need to include the cost of your healthcare on top
My nephew also in the netherlands is on a good wage. top 10% stuff. he pays over 50% of his earnings in tax and that does not include his healthcare insurance
So if we’re low tax compared to other European countries how much more tax do they pay?
One of the other problems that the Conservatives, but actually politicians of all creeds face, is that one of the most efficient ways of boosting the economy is through giving money to poor people, because they tend to spend it, which is what causes the economic growth.
But we don't like poor people in this country. So we can't do that.
The trouble is that the only idea that Labour appears to be getting across is more growth. More growth equals more building, more roads, more vehicles, more bicycles, more “stuff”. The planet is a finite resource when is a mainstream party going to have the courage to lead us in the right direction?
Tbf I’d like to cut tax as well
However I’m aware we can’t, as the money has to come from somewhere
So why they are even bringing it up I don’t know.. (actually I do, to win votes with empty promises)
Apparently, near Xmas, the top turkeys get together and try to abolish
higher taxes. Xmas
They don't. They just say "pick that other one".
The irony is, that if we paid more tax, then we'd have more growth, as well as a better quality of life, and in the long run we'd be better off because wages would grow rather than stagnating.
However I’m aware we can’t, as the money has to come from somewhere
For what? From where? Can we please stop repeating myths about having to 'find money from somewhere' to pay for things that the govt does. It's simply not the way the system works. It's correct that at this point in time we can't really reduce the overrall tax burden because of inflation, but it's not because we need the money to pay for things.
Tax is not a method for raising funds, it's there primarily to provide price stability and aid in policy implementation.
Which is why when you go to mainland Europe by and large you see public services that work, far less signs of poverty, few homeless and clean streets.
Tax is not a method for raising funds, it’s there primarily to provide price stability and aid in policy implementation.
Yep.
If you announce you'll spend twice as much, without also explaining when and where you'll tax back that spend, then inflation and currency devaluation (and interest rate changes to try and control them) are likely to mean that everything costs twice as much... and nothing more actually gets achieved. This is why spending and taxation decisions/announcements go hand in hand, despite the former not being "funded" by the later.
[ we have this thread if people want to know more about this stuff without totally derailing this thread ]
[ "twice" is an exaggeration and over simplification here, used for hyperbole, of course ]
wrong thread...
I want lower taxes because it feels like what tax I do pay gets squandered and syphoned off to Tory cronies.
If it was used effectively and efficiently to improve the country, I'd happily pay more tax.
Like so many situations, it's not about the actual number, it's whether I feel like I'm getting value for money (which I'm currently not).
Yup, it's all about where that money goes... but also who the tax is taken off, and who gets away with the big tax breaks or avoidance to avoid paying their share.
I live in a high tax country and I don't think the UK is particularly low tax when you take the whole package into account. Complicated yes, inefficiently organised and collected yes, strangely disproportionate yes, but overall low, hmmm, not really.
But cutting axes per se isn't the answer to the growth question
And also, at some point, it's got to be about wealth redistribution, because if it isn't, we'll get stagnation.
WBO - do you pay for healthcare on top of taxation? We are not as low ax as we used to be but still overall low tax because of the healthcare issue
Where is the additional money going to come from to sort the mess out?
A better question is "where's the money gone?"
The tax take has risen yet the quality of services have gone down - fingers in the till...
Where is the additional money going to come from to sort the mess out?
They can literally create it from nothing as they did during the banking crisis and COVID. They just need to work out how to keep a lid on inflation.
Basically the conservatives are in an ideological bind.
^^Basically^^.
Does anyone, other than her own self image, give a shit what Liz Truss thinks about economic matters?
She's on a Tufton St payroll these days, that dark money from the States has paid for her to spout, and therefore she must spout.
She’s on a Tufton St payroll these days, that dark money from the States has paid for her to spout, and therefore she must spout.
I am pretty certain she is a true believer. Any money they lob her way is just a bonus.
Does anyone, other than her own self image, give a shit what Liz Truss thinks about economic matters?
She represents a large and powerful group inside the tories. So yeah knowing what she pushes is, sadly, still important since she isnt the only one who decided the only problem with her plan was the implementation rather than the nuttery.
Tbf I’d like to cut tax as well
However I’m aware we can’t, as the money has to come from somewhere
it ideally would come from people who have vast amounts to share. the people who can afford it.
The problem is that ~40% of the adult population is not paying any tax, but is using a very large proportion of government spending - health, social care, welfare (including pensions) etc.
There is also a minority of people (around 9%) who are paying European levels of tax and getting basically nothing for it. They don't really use the health service all that often (but if they did want to see a GP then they have to wait a month), there's no NHS dentists, no police presence, kids are probably privately educated, the roads are in worse condition than those of Belarus, and they even have to pay to drop a couple of bags of rubbish off at the tip.
The top 10% of taxpayers paid 61% of all income tax in 2020–21, up from 35% in 1978–79. Meanwhile, in 2010 the personal allowance was £6540, vs £12,570 today...
Taking all these points together, is it really any wonder that the 9% want to pay less tax?
Whilst headline tax has gone up the ability to avoid tax for the richest has also increased. Tax avoidance was at the heart of Brexit one you got passed the flag waving nonsense.
I'm baffled that so many people who barely have a pot to piss in will go out and vote for people like me to get taxed less. Not a lot I can do about it though.
When I lived in Japan, the tax burden seemed extremely low (and I'm including health insurance). The govt spent money like water, and the standard of living was generally very high (and inequality seemed generally low). It was all a bit of a mystery.
They don’t really use the health service all that often (but if they did want to see a GP then they have to wait a month), there’s no NHS dentists, no police presence, kids are probably privately educated, the roads are in worse condition than those of Belarus, and they even have to pay to drop a couple of bags of rubbish off at the tip.
But the answer for all that is George Osbornes ideologically driven austerity policies. There aren't any cops becasue the Tories sacked them all - and then had to re-hire a bunch more. You have to wait for a dentist becasue the Govt won't increase the NHS payments to them, the wait to see a GP is because the Govt refused to invest in hospitals, the roads are shit because the govt reduced the money they give to councils to do that work.
The Tories have ****ed this country in the last decade
Tax cuts
They aren’t increasing income tax bands for 5 years
They’ve massively reduced
Capital gains allowance
Dividend allowances
Bank interest allowances
The top 10% of taxpayers paid 61% of all income tax in 2020–21, up from 35% in 1978–79. Meanwhile, in 2010 the personal allowance was £6540, vs £12,570 today…
And as part of the general tax bill. After all the tories being the party of taxation have steadily ramped up the VAT bill since then.
There is also the problem of how much lower tax is on unearned income which the tories skip over. It would be reasonable to balance out income tax with increases there instead.
A major problem though is how much of that "welfare" is really business subsidies in topping up paypackets to be enough to live on. The tories give away of council housing and labours following them really doesnt help here. Quite a lot being paid out in rent which previously wouldnt have been done.
Jamz - during that time the country has become massively less equal with the richest grabbing an ever larger share of the cake
Also the poorer tend to pay a large % of their income in indirect taxes - and spend every penny they have which churns around the economy. rich folk squirrel wealth away which removes it from the economy
Since getting elected in 2010, the Tories have broken:
The NHS
Local Government
Education
The military
The Police
The Criminal Justice system
Legal Aid
The prison system
Our unwritten constitution
The Tory Party
Our EU membership
Our water and sewerage system
Housing
Public Transport
The road system
HMRC
.
.
.
I was trying to think of something they hadn't broken yesterday, and I couldn't come up with anything. And yet a sizeable proportion of our fellow subjects are prepared to vote for them. Why?
They’ve massively reduced
Capital gains allowance
Dividend allowances
Bank interest allowances
And yet, unearned income and wealth gains are still taxed at a substantially lower rate than earned income.
I've yet to hear anyone even attempt to explain with any credibility why this is a good thing, let alone why it's fair and just.
~40% of the adult population is not paying any tax
I don't know a single adult paying no tax. Do they not buy anything, don't even heat their home? No council tax?
Why?
constant pumping out of propaganda by their tame media outlets. that sets the whole national conversation. The BBC takes its neutrality from the midpint of the press. If that point is hugely favorable to the Tories then so will the BBC and ITV output be. they have also put huge pressure on the BBC and its worked. The BBC are too cowed to hold them to account
Does anyone, other than her own self image, give a shit what Liz Truss thinks about economic matters?
Its frankly terrifying how many Tory MPs (and pretty much the entire membership) still believe her prognoses that she was right all along but it was some vague unspecified wokerati that sabotaged her. I believe such rabid socialists as the Bank of England are part of this sinister left-wing plot
the wait to see a GP is because the Govt refused to invest in
hospitalsgeneral practice
Fixed that for you.
One of the problems is that most of the work is done in General Practice and yet most of the attention goes on hospitals.
I thought a large part of it was that GPs are now having to spend a lot of time with chronically sick folk who previously would have been in hospital getting fixed?
My GP still offers a fine service including on the day consultations. waits for routine appointments are a week or so
However I’m aware we can’t, as the money has to come from somewhere
Wealth taxes
If governments are serious about raising funding, then this is how it should be achieved. The majority of the financial stimulus issued during the pandemic has been absorbed by the wealthy and used to push up asset prices. This needs to be recovered back to HM Treasury to balance out the tax burned across the population.
It wouldnt take much to put a small tax on anyone with assets over £10m to achieve a large tax intake.
I cant remember the actual rate, but Sunak pays a lower tax rate than the majority of the population.
Both main parties have discounted the idea....
I was trying to think of something they hadn’t broken yesterday, and I couldn’t come up with anything. And yet a sizeable proportion of our fellow subjects are prepared to vote for them. Why?
They've not broken our Sovereignty - although they have sold it to the highest bidder
What they dont get is their idea of tax cuts doesnt tally with the lived experience of most of us. We want income tax thresholds raised significantly, income tax rates reduce, VAT reduced, etc. Coporation tax, CGT, inheritance tax, the 45p tax rate doesnt make a jot of difference.
Also is tax the issue, highest tax levels since records began whilst services are down the toilet. It cant just be the money that is the issue, we could throw a load more at public services but it clearly wont make much difference.
we could throw a load more at public services but it clearly wont make much difference.
Actually it would make a huge difference. Ask any teacher, healthcare professional, policeman etc etc
IN the health service you can map waiting lists against funding very simply andanyone who has worked in the NHS can see this easily. Most of my time in healthcare was under the tories with continual cuts - yes real cuts ( I was inold age care - one of the cindarella services. We lost several % of our budget year on year) Under labour we had expanding budgets - guess what - after a year or two of increasing budgets stuff got better
One of the problems is that most of the work is done in General Practice and yet most of the attention goes on hospitals.
But if the Tories had invested in the Trusts our workload wouldn't be anything like it is now, was my poorly worded point, but I accept yours as well. (I'm a PM at an inner city GP practice)
Since getting elected in 2010, the Tories have broken:
The military
Yeah, nah. Defence was broken long before that due to very expensive conflicts that required investment in kit that when said conflicts were recovered from existing funding.
Add in absolutely ineffective civil service and wasteful procurement processes and ineffective leadership.
To blame the state of defence in 2023 on one government, ignoring the reality of the problem is naive at best, and absolute bullshit at worst.
I get ideological loyalty, but apply that mindset to this let's a lot of very useless people off the hook.
Actually it would make a huge difference. Ask any teacher, healthcare professional, policeman etc etc
The problem with "investment" these days is that money is seemingly clawed back at a later date.
MY impression with the military stuff is it suffered from the classic politicians desire for BIG THINGS - so money spent on aircraft carriers we do not need and we have no planes for - etc etc but not on body armour and stuff the boots on the ground actually need. All politicians of all parties like BIG THINGS! to stand in front of for photo ops
Reasonable assessment mr Mandalorian?
I think we're taxing the wrong things. Also, the tax system is way too complicated.
What we should do is tax increases in wealth. So, if anybody has 2x what they had last year, they get taxed on it.
This is much fairer and would bring the rich and poor closer (metaphorically).
Aircraft carriers probably a poor example TJ.
This government has buggered up the big stuff as well the “little” stuff (ie the workforce). The military haven’t escaped the Tory dream of paying less and expecting more.
MY impression with the military stuff is it suffered from the classic politicians desire for BIG THINGS – so money spent on aircraft carriers we do not need and we have no planes for – etc etc but not on body armour and stuff the boots on the ground actually need. All politicians of all parties like BIG THINGS! to stand in front of for photo ops
Reasonable assessment mr Mandalorian?
Ish. The contracts for the new carriers was signed in 2007, Brown's labour government after Blair got ousted.
The decision to get rid of the Harriers and other carrier borne aircraft was a Conservative government.
But they may be the mouth pieces, don't forget there are very senior officers and civil servants that advise and influence and in some cases direct policy and decisions. But yeah, senior leaders love big statements. I could post a dozen pictures of various Defence Secretary's standing in front of shiny kit with a shit eating grin but they're often joined by a red-tabbed officer and/or senior civil servant. (apologies to any CC bods, I just have a very low opinion of some of the procurement clowns I've had the displeasure of working with).
This government has buggered up the big stuff as well the “little” stuff (ie the workforce). The military haven’t escaped the Tory dream of paying less and expecting more.
It was from a Labour government that the Tories inherited a £30bn overspend with very little to show for it and defence has been paying the price ever since. Add in years of overspend to get kit fit for the conflicts that ole Tony set us upon, money which is clawed back one way or another.
All the other points people are making about the Tories are valid and I won't disagree, but on this one area it it's disingenuous to pinpoint one party for consistently failing Defence, I appreciate that's hard for some to accept due to their strong ideological beliefs, but it doesn't make it any less true. When money 'needs to be found' defence it's where it's found from because we have no unions, we have senior leaders that have to play the game or they get sacked. It's the easy option for all politicians regardless of party.
What we should do is tax increases in wealth.
More or less, yeah. Wealth tax, Inheritance tax, gains tax, unearned income tax (eg dividends). But like I said, people who barely have a pot to piss in will vote for these to go down, either because they mistakenly believe that one day they might pay them, or else they like being close to the bottom end of the economy, so long as they can point and laugh at someone even worse off.
Wealth tax a gain is only a gain when it’s materialised, otherwise we’d be kicking folk out their homes that have doubled/trebled in value over the last few decades
Dividend income allowance has dropped and dropped from £5k to £1k this tax year, and then taxable inline with income tax
And?
I would be caught out by ut with two properlies that have increased in value 10x.
Properly ownership in this country is totally fubar with it acting to transfer money from poor to rich.. i rent out one of the properties for below below market rent. Its so absurd that i could borrow enough money using the rent as income if i actually squuzed every penny out of my tenant to buy another property which would then get me even more money.
I get richer by doing nothing simply because i have capital. Capital i have not earned but that has been created by house price inflation.
It stinks to high heaven.. it shouldbe taxed highly
To blame the state of defence in 2023 on one government, ignoring the reality of the problem is naive at best, and absolute bullshit at worst.
I'd certainly agree that defence has been a mess for years, under governments of all colours. But the Tories certainly haven't improved things, and their manpower cuts and increasing reliance on outsourcing really haven't helped.
Again with the idealogical gash. Defence has shrunk consistently under every political party as has the outsourcing increased.
For the sake of this discussion I'd ask you park defence. You can try all you want to use it as leverage for a political viewpoint but it simply doesn't stand up as one party being particularly shit.
On this topic I despise all of the parties for the damage they've had a hand in creating making the job I loved difficult, sometimes pointless and the lives lost while they're ****ing about around the edges with senior leadership complicit in the ****ery.
There are much clearer and irrefutable examples of their failures were there are no mitigating circumstances or shared responsibility.
I did make it clear that it was all politicians imo
I did make it clear that it was all politicians imo
I got that TJ, I'm sure others will try and flog that horse.
Defence is an easy political target, civvies don't give a shit about defence on the day to day unless they have a reason to. Why would they?
On the average day it doesn't influence much at an individual level, unlike health, education, taxes, etc. They're of far greater importance to the average bod and have daily impact on their lives.
As I say, I'd park defence as an example of Tory ineptitude, it's not like the list is short. 😂
It cant just be the money that is the issue, we could throw a load more at public services but it clearly wont make much difference.
Have a look at the real terms cuts suffered by local authorities over the last decade. Yes, money is the issue, when they have statutory obligations to fulfil.
As I say, I’d park defence as an example of Tory ineptitude, it’s not like the list is short. 😂
Lolz
Have a look at the real terms cuts suffered by local authorities over the last decade. Yes, money is the issue, when they have statutory obligations to fulfil.
Aye, when you've created the conditions for failure like they have you can't then call out ineptitude.
Local authorities can only piss with the cock they've got, if you've caused a micropenis you can't be annoyed when they get piss on their fingers.
Edit for @dissonance very apt point: if you possessed one iota of integrity you'd not look to blame. But they don't, so they do.
Aye, when you’ve created the conditions for failure like they have you can’t then call out ineptitude.
Of course you can!
So long as you lack anything like a conscience or the idea of being held accountable for your actions.
Indeed its often a good plan to get in the accusations early since then them trying to hold you to account looks like sour grapes.
The problem with threads like this is they just turn into some leftist blue sky thinking topic, reading some comments you'd think mainland Europe are the pinnacle of public services and efficiency, i've not seen that broad spectrum, i've seen similar overall issues throughout the EU, we can moan and blame Brexit and the likes, but reality is we're still as joined up with the world than we've ever been, and the world is having a real problem, no matter if it's governed by the left or right.
We had in my lifetime 18 years of the tories, who in that time destroyed themselves, then we had 23 years of labour, who in that time destroyed themselves, we've now had 13 years of the tories again, and they've yet again destroyed themselves in that time, i'm not holding out great hope for widespread change with Labour if they win, but i do feel they'll start well, then complacency and nepotism will slowly destroy them like all others before them, it's why i just get bored of seeing the blame being all about the tories, because the minute they're out of power, we'll still be in a mess for a generation to come, we'll not have all that dream stuff that populist politicians are going on about, because the reality is we can't afford it, can't maintain it or just can't actually reach that level.
i’ve not seen that broad spectrum, i’ve seen similar overall issues throughout the EU,
I suggest you open your eyes then. It is undeniable that western Europe has public services far better than ours and far less poverty and higher benefits and pensions
reading some comments you’d think mainland Europe are the pinnacle of public services and efficiency
I don’t think that, and can't see why you would, either. It’s obtuse to argue that our public services are not worsening, regardless of what may be the case elsewhere.
We had in my lifetime 18 years of the tories, who in that time destroyed themselves, then we had 23 years of labour, who in that time destroyed themselves, we’ve now had 13 years of the tories again
i had a lot of fun in the noughties but did I miss a decade?
Well.. see the thing is, the Labour we had was 'New' Labour, which was a major shift away from previous Labour principles. I think that was a response to the previous Tory victories. So in a sense, even though they weren't in power, they were still dictating how the country was run.
I'm hoping that if Tories stay dead for a long time Labour will have the chance to take control of the game, and we can see some meaningful changes. I'm talking about 20, 30, 40 years now, not just a Starmer administration.
it’s why i just get bored of seeing the blame being all about the tories
It really is the Tories, but not even this lot - it goes back to 1979 I think. That was a seismic change in Britain.
It may not be the pinnacle, but when I can get a train 3 times the distance across Europe for less than a return trip to London from Leeds, I'm thinking it's much ****ing better than what we've got.
Some friends of ours went inter-railing to Croatia not too long ago. One of them has spent all their life working within the rail industry here, I'd say his opinion is an informed one, and he spoke very highly of it.
I’m hoping that if Tories stay dead for a long time Labour will have the chance to take control of the game, and we can see some meaningful changes. I’m talking about 20, 30, 40 years now, not just a Starmer administration.
Not a chance of that mate without electoral reform and without a new leftish party. Labour have moved so far to the right and the right wing now hold all the power in the party having got rid of anyone vaguely left of centre. the right wing having captured the party are not going to let that power slip from them
We now have a far right party and a centre right party in England. there is no significant left wing party
Well.. see the thing is, the Labour we had was ‘New’ Labour, which was a major shift away from previous Labour principles.
The hair splitting over new labour as a way to ignore failings on the red side is exactly the same whataboutery that the Tories use.
Just own it, labour dropped a bollock, created the conditions for ****ery too. Nearly did it again with those momentum cokeheads.
Edit: cokeheads was better than loons.
The hair splitting over new labour as a way to ignore failings on the red side is exactly the same whataboutery that the Tories use.
Whoah there, I'm not absolving anyone of blame. I'm just talking about when the next big shift is coming - because New Labour wasn't it.
I'm more aligned with Old Labour but I'm not suggesting we go back to that.