[Closed] Tax Credits Debate/Vote in the Lords

No taxation without representation

I'd agree seems more civilized

Well then - First motion was defeated, second one passed. Interesting.

wanmankylung - Member
One thing that strikes me is the eloquence and good behaviour of the people taking part.

I think you will find that old people have slightly low energy compare to the rest ...

That's a bit of a thumping for the Gov't - what a shame.

Every Tory I've seen interviewed on the subject quotes facts and figures, and demonstrates to everyone that they don't have the remotest shred of comprehension of what it's like to live dependent on tax credits.

They don't seem to get that when they cut your income by a massive chunk, you don't just dip in to your savings, because it's difficult to rack those up when you earn minimum wage

They're so detached from what reality means to so many people that it'd be laughable. But there really is nothing remotely funny about this.

I'm sure that whatever happens they'll go out and spend more on a meal than a working families weekly income, with it never occurring to them that that's just what they've done, after voting to make those people a lot poorer

Utter ****s!!!! A shower of shit, the lot of them!!!

@wan the motion to throw the bill out was smashed, it was the second motion to require the commons to review it whuch was passed. If I understand it correctly the government has the option to review the bill and re-submit or just force it through. We shall see which course of action they take in the coming days

It'd be great to see Dave appoint 150 rich Tory peers to the Lords, at enormous public expense, so he can force through a bill to make the working poor a lot poorer.

The fact that he's even threatening to do that exposes the truth about the laughably titled 'Compassionate Convertism'

I dont look at any of the polcies as Tory or Labour or Liberal, just wethers its good for the country.

We need to deal with ever increasing social welfare bill. Tax credits have an unintended consequence that employers pay less. Especially in big cities where housing allowence is also needed to live for low wage earners.

Im broadly behind the low tax low welfare polciy. We need to get away the circle of hand outs from the government

Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for the Lords. That's one bunch of scroungers we won't miss. Can we send them to Syria while we're at it?

Hang on a moment. They have just done something maybe they arent totally useless?

It'd be great to see Dave appoint 150 rich Tory peers to the Lords, at enormous public expense

He could sell them seats instead, like Labour did

I was bored today so watched the entire debate. The most striking and telling part was when Lord Howe was summing up. He seemed fixated on the idea that 8/10 people would be better off under Osborne's proposal whilst at the same time oblivious to what would happen to the 2/10 that were getting all of the pain.

Another telling point was where Nigel Lawson said that he wasn't happy about the tax credit cuts - if he's saying that things are too brutal then they must be by several orders of magnitude.

I fully expect the tory gov't to take the huff, fill the lords with tories and use whatever blunt tools are open to them to force the cuts through.

I also read somewhere that Osborne is sitting on £32Bn National Insurance surplus - given that it can only be spend on a couple of things - why is he sitting on it and running down the NHS?

Im broadly behind the low tax low welfare polciy. We need to get away the circle of hand outs from the government

I think most people are. It's the transition that folk are arguing about.

The Lords is a real contradiction for me, I don't approve of an unelected second chamber, but generally find them to be very fair minded and sensible, much more so than the elected chamber.

PB - I think everyone agrees that the whole principle of taxpayers subsidising employers to pay their employees subsistence level wages is insane.

But cutting that subsistence and plunging the poorest paid workers into poverty, while obliging the employers responsible for exploiting this system for years, just to subsidise their own profits, while compelling them to do absolutely nothing..... does that seem right to you?

But cutting that subsistence and plunging the poorest paid workers into poverty,

Whilst giving tax cuts to the wealthiest (inheritance tax) and cutting corporation Tax, it's beyond obscene, it's utterly vindictive. It's making the poorest suffer just because they can, not because there is any fiscal imperative to do so.

Exactly! I don't know how they sleep at night. But ultimately they're subhuman sociopaths, utterly devoid of any humanity, empathy or compassion. They even look like they're enjoying it! They're just so pleased with themselves and their smug, entitled, casual cruelty

Government apparently now announced review of the powers of the Lords...

Another brazen 'let's change the rules so we can't lose again'. See also changes to constituency boundaries before next election.

Grrrrrrrrrr.

They say you should choose your battles.

The cause the 'compassionate'Tories think is worth standing up for is making the working poor considerably poorer

Sounds like they're prepared to go to war over that. Potentially their Poll Tax moment? It's exhibiting the same degree of cluelessness. Maybe Gideon has started to believe his own hype.

Labour seems to have adored a 'give them enough rope...' Philosophy.

Maybe Jezza is a bit more shrewd than people are giving him credit for.

But ultimately they're subhuman sociopaths,

"Subhuman!". Wasn't that the way Hitler described the Russians? And they say the Tories are the nasty party?

Bottom line is they said they would cut welfare by £12Bn. They got voted in. If people don't like it they'll get voted out next time. Democracy in action.

By 'Subhuman' i'm merely comenting on their lack of humanity.

Well done on hitting godwins law so soon though. Would you like me to draw on a moustache and start goose stepping? It's much the same as suggesting that Ian Duncan Smith doesn't appear to be the most caring individual on the planet

But I'll be honest... I've always fancied invading Stalingrad

[quote=binners ]They even look like they're enjoying it! They're just so pleased with themselves and their smug, entitled, casual cruelty

[quote=binners ]It's much the same as suggesting that Ian Duncan Smith doesn't appear to be the most caring individual on the planet

Do you have a picture for that?

If only I did. They're so subtle about it though, the visual evidence scarcely exists

I dont look at any of the polcies as Tory or Labour or Liberal, just wethers its good for the country.

We need to deal with ever increasing social welfare bill.

How do you know whether a party is good for the country or not without looking at the policies?

Also, the cost of welfare vs the cost of not providing anything at all...given that it's going to cost more than £165bn for Trident's replacement, personally I'd rather see it spent on improving people's lives instead of irradiating them.

Bottom line is they said they would cut welfare by £12Bn. They got voted in. If people don't like it they'll get voted out next time. Democracy in action.

October phoned, it wants its viral videos back!

should we have had a smarter more cynical electorate which ignored both the prime minister and chief whip of the party stating 12bn cuts would not include cuts to working tax credits? Perhaps Lord Howe's 2 in 10 should have read the runes, decided they were either lying or not communicating with their chancellor, and voted for their bank balances. That is democracy in action, after all. I am sure in time someone will extrapolate the losers in this into swing voters in constituencies and work out how much democracy has been skewed by the difference between 'no cuts to tax credits' promised by Cameron six months ago and what we have today.

They even look like they're enjoying it! They're just so pleased with themselves and their smug, entitled, casual cruelty

It's like Viagra for the Tories. Being cruel to the poor gets them hard.

One thing I'm certain of; this current Tory government is vindictive and reckless. They're willing to ride roughshod over the upper house to save a few million in Tax Credits, meanwhile they've committed to cutting taxes for those who can afford it. They're courting some unsavory governments around the world and are being very cavalier about Human Rights. T

The sooner they're consigned to electoral disgrace, the better.

Bottom line is they said they would cut welfare by £12Bn. They got voted in. If people don't like it they'll get voted out next time. Democracy in action.

They also specifically said that they would categorically not do what they are doing now.

Is there a way to throw a party out of government for conning the electorate? If not, there should be.

The Lords had an opportunity to stop these cuts to tax credits tonight and chose not to. The House of Lords appears to be as much use as a chocolate teapot

running down the NHS?

The Lords had an opportunity to stop these cuts to tax credits tonight and chose not to. The House of Lords appears to be as much use as a chocolate teapot

From what I'm reading Osbourne will push the implementation schedule back providing interim relief for those affected.

So who thinks the labour market will correct overnight for this change? Employers under no legal obligation to pay more, hmmmm wonder how that will pan out, suppose the cost of living (rents etc) will be reduced to account for it ehh.

Who started the Tax Credit system? it's been around as long as I can remember, used to be advertised on buses when I was a kid! although it wasn't originally called Tax Credits was it?

many of the the Labour and LibDems peers think these cuts to spending are necessary

OP Tories committed to spend £8bn pa more on the NHS whilst Labour's commitment was £2bn pa

Anyone with half abrain knows those figures are irrelevant, When junior doctors are leaving the country en masse and hospitals like Addenbrookes are put in Special Measures, you know the Tories are out to screw the NHS.

The passing of the tax credits changes with amendments is being painted as a defeat, Osborne looks like he's coming down hard from one of his coke n hookers binges again

The Tories are distraught that their PM has been held to account lying multiple times to the electorate about protecting tax credits

@gordi many of the the Labour and LibDems peers think these cuts to spending are necessary

Highly Unlikely, more likely they don't feel comfortable blocking a bill from the elected chamber.

Even if you did think it was imperitive to balance the books so quickly (which is just daft given borrowing costs are at an all time low and the difference it makes is miniscule), creating an effective 93% tax rate on the poor after making them £1300 worse off a year is a fiscally daft thing to do, total dissinsentive to look for more work.

As for balancing the books, they've been throwing money at the wealthy and corporations in tax cuts, so the government really aren't that bothered about fiscal prudence. It would be hard not to see this as some form of class war.

Just listening to Today, R4, my fact of the day:

Lib Dem MPs: 8/650
Lib Dem Peers: 112/816

😯

[i]Bottom line is they said they would cut welfare by £12Bn[/i]

TBF to the Tories when they were making those claims I suspect their electoral plans had them in coalition, so these sorts of things could've been quietly pushed into the long grass under the guise of "our coalition partners won't support it".

Their mistake was believing that they could just carry on regardless after the event. I suspect they may have just learned that lesson.

I don't think even this group of Tories would be prepared to stuff the Lords at huge public expense, at a time when even they understand that it needs culling (and there is a manifesto pledge to reduce numbers in the Commons from 650 to 600 ), and looking at the standard of candidate they came up with only a few months ago, I don't think they could find 150 suitable candidates that would pass muster with the public.

I think the front bench have discovered that while they have a majority in the Commons, they still have an effective opposition.

As for balancing the books, they've been throwing money at the wealthy and corporations in tax cuts, so the government really aren't that bothered about fiscal prudence. It would be hard not to see this as some form of class war.

Class war or simply fundamental perspectives - perhaps the same thing.

Reducing tax credits (or other aspects of welfare) is tampering with something that was created, or in this case re-created by the state itself.

Taxing wealth is different. That is interfering with the results of a free-exchange between people (economic agents).

How you approach either should be (but rarely is) different. In the end, GO will probably fudge both but with some sleight of hand.

Tax credits (like tax rates) are merely political footballs kicked around the Westminster Village. Interestingly in this case, the head magician proves to be Gordon Brown. Forget the recent trap set by the Tories for Labour, this whole mess was a trap set by Brown for the Tories. And Osborne sprung it and has his snout caught.

Bloody politicians.....

The Lords had an opportunity to stop these cuts to tax credits tonight and chose not to. The House of Lords appears to be as much use as a chocolate teapot

I'm sure a lot of Tory backbenchers are privately breathing a sigh of relief too.

A lot of them had apparently voiced their concerns to George and Dave that they were getting away with this at the moment as it was all hypothetical to most of their constituents, who maybe weren't fully aware of the details yet.

But when the reality of the situation kicked in in the new year - that a lot of their poorest working voters were about to receive letters, in black and white, detailing how many thousand pounds a year of their already stretched incomes they'd be losing, then their already somewhat laughable ruse to depict themselves as 'The Party of The Workers' would be held up as a complete sham. It'd be 'The Nasty Party' back in full effect, as people like teaching assistants, and other low wage staff, who would receive a lot of public sympathy, start getting evicted because they can no longer pay their rent, or start having to rely on food banks to feed their kids. And when that happened the anger would be directed firmly at them!

Its also interesting that even the Tories normally dependable friends in the Murdoch press have come out firmly against the cut in Tax Credits, as its just their readership who were about to get clobbered! So they had to reflect that.

Well done on hitting godwins law so soon though.

[img] [/img]

[quote=teamhurtmore spake unto the masses]
Taxing wealth is different. That is interfering with the results of a free-exchange between people (economic agents).

Not really. There is no free exchange outside of an Ayn Rand fantasy - it all takes place within a context.

Taxing wealth is different. That is interfering with the results of a free-exchange between people (economic agents).

Not at all, we don't have any innate right to our salaries / wealth, it all exists in the context of the legal and tax framework. Plus, they're happy to adjust tax rates down (eg Inheritance tax), so why not up?

Interestingly in this case, the head magician proves to be Gordon Brown. Forget the recent trap set by the Tories for Labour, this whole mess was a trap set by Brown for the Tories. And Osborne sprung it and has his snout caught.

Wow, I'm impressed by your attempt at blaming GB for this! I didn't see that coming in a million years!

The reason we have tax credits is that we have allowed employers to get away with paying poverty wages as successive governments have prioritised shareholder wealth over employee wealth. The current Government have announced cuts to CT, so are actually accelerating this trend (basically making the rich richer at the expense of the poor).

FF - given that little of that bears up to scrutiny, I will leave those thoughts with you....

Not blaming Brown - he (from his perspective) did a good job. They put the Tories in a pickle and Osborne now reeks of vinegar.

So I supply labour for which I receive a wage and I have no innate right to that - what kind of world it that?

What they really said was "we're thinking about blocking it, but we'll give you a chance to come up with a better plan yourselves first".

It's enlightening to see what the Labour Party think of what happened in the Lords (and it's worth bearing in mind that Labour abstained on the motion that would have killed the bill):

[img] [/img]

- "new claimants are not covered" - so new tax credits claimants will suffer the cuts.

- the cuts will still happen, just to universal credit not tax credits.

- the Labour plan will result in cuts which "probably exceed the very cuts the government demands".

[i]Who started the Tax Credit system? it's been around as long as I can remember, used to be advertised on buses when I was a kid! although it wasn't originally called Tax Credits was it? [/i]

http://www.revenuebenefits.org.uk/tax-credits/policy/research/where-it-all-started/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_tax_credit

Worlds most complicated system, and works on a simple principle that you'll earn the same each week...

Bencooper, so it depends on the differences between universal credit and tax credits as to who gets what cut?

In the meantime, Osborne has to rework ( to try and not make this his 'poll tax miment') it anyway so it won't go through in this manner at all

So I supply labour for which I receive a wage and I have no innate right to that - what kind of world it that?

You don't have an innate right to keep all of it. You have to give back some to maintain the environment in which you "earned" and spend that money. Alternative systems have been tried - Somalia is the example usually quoted.

well that's progress...

@ br - Like the dole it has gone through name changes with successive governments! It's been around a lot longer than the 2002/03 name change. The adverts I remember where in the 80's no where near 2002, like I said it had a different title then but was effectively the same, a government subsidy to low paid working families who earn't under an income threshold.

Not sure it was as "radically different" as the link article suggests, possibly less widespread though.

So I supply labour for which I receive a wage and I have no innate right to that - what kind of world it that?

Your labour earns you some money and the government some money.

I thought you were an economist?

So I supply labour for which I receive a wage and I have no innate right to that - what kind of world it that?

A very fair one. You are only able to supply your labour taking advantage of all the institutions and facilities which provide the framework you rely upon, eg Education, roads, police, a legal system which you might end up using to enforce a contract.

Whilst you live in the UK you are bound by UK laws and taxes to pay for all the facilities used.

To think otherwise is just being childish....

I am mol - two separate things though. Not a great idea to confuse.

Google - "circular flow of income"

To what end?

Circular flow doesn't have an end

😀

The Tories are distraught that their PM has been held to account lying multiple times to the electorate about protecting tax credits

...and today Osborne (in Peston interview on r4) is still peddling the excuse that the electorate know the direction he is heading in so what do they expect. (And the answer is still that most people vote for their own financial interests, and the hard working families that voted conservative last time were fed a lie on tax credits which they took and voted on in good faith).

He also repeated himself a lot in that interview just as he did last night with the 'unelected upper house' sentence. Really, for such a clever man he should realise how coached and two-dimensional he (along with a few others eg Milliband) sounds when he is briefed by someone else just before an interview and all he can do is drop a coupe of t's and aitches and repeat the key points verbatim over and over.

Osborne's obviously flustered, he will look bad whichever way it plays out
He seems to still be pressing ahead with cuts to the lowest paid workers , while keeping tax cuts for inheritance and corporations, even the poor dupes they mugged at the election are twigging that he's out to only look after his own atnthe expense of the plebs

Add to that, Tory rumblings over reforming the HOL, (despite blowing their chance last term) and threats to flood the lords with Tory peers, all of a sudden Borris is piping up as a champion of the poor and his own leadership hopes all of sudden waxing as Gideon's wane

I thought David Davis spoke well on the subject on R4 this morning. Speaking against proposal to stuff the HoL with Tory peers, and also attacking the unfairness of the tax credit cuts.

So Austerity George drops the whole idea!

More borrowing instead...

Cue, some unhappy teachers - good job education isn't important, eh? 😯

£22Bn in efficiency savings for NHS. Good luck with that.

My colleague is rather happy his Tax Credits aren't to be cut.

He really needs them with his family being on the poverty line - it's bloody hard managing with a new car, new house, couple of holidays a year, every games console going, etc., etc.,

His wife works part time, and has a side-line job which I'm sure she declares to HMRC. 😉

not a bad budget overall:

- a lot more cash for the NHS
- additional £1/2 Bn ringfenced for mental health
- more hammering of buy to lets to reduce foreign buyers
- no cuts to the police budget
- on housing, more help to buy (demand side) and help for builders with release of public land and working capital (supply side)
- and we still have the living wage and now no changes to tax credit so no-one's worse off

The look on Andy Burnham's face was priceless when no cut to the police budget was announced - he'd said he would be "comfortable" with a cut up to 10%!

- and we still have the living wage and now no changes to tax credit so no-one's worse off

Why is the "National Living Wage" significantly lower than the living wage?

So Austerity George drops the whole idea!
More borrowing instead...

Isn't it being paid for with Apprenticeship Levy and increased forecast revenue?

- on housing, more help to buy (demand side) and help for builders with release of public land and working capital (supply side)

Yes - more affordable houses for poor people and first time buyers.

Oh ...

Hang on a mo ...

Osbornes gone all Corbynomical !