You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I’m not getting a lift home from him again (late on Sunday night), cos we had to stop at Booths to charge his car and I just wanted to get home”.
Luckily he charged the car overnight so he doesn’t need to stop. Unlike Duncan and his 3lt V6 who had stop on the way home while simultaneously killing polar bears. Worse still Duncan is also a vegan.
Luckily he charged the car overnight so he doesn’t need to stop. Unlike Duncan and his 3lt V6 who had stop on the way home while simultaneously killing polar bears. Worse still Duncan is also a vegan.
Worse still you catch a glimpse of B.A.Nanna buying his passenger a gregs steak bake whilst their Tesla gets a quick 10 minute top-up. You suggest this to Duncan, but his hands smell of diesel and he considers the Gregs Vegan roll to be a symbol of capitalism trying to make a quick buck out of the thing that used to make him unique and interesting (along with his 3.0 V6).
Yea, but it would only annoy those mates that otherwise conveniently forget to pay you the £40 back for petrol.
🙂 Fortunately I don't have mates like that, but yes it has occurred to me what value would a mate, cadging a lift, put on money and time.
Greggs? We're charging at Booths, so it'll be a Keswick Beef & Garstang blue cheese Ciabatta, thank you.
so it’ll be a Keswick Beef & Garstang blue cheese Ciabatta, thank you.
Yeah **** you Duncan you’re having beef.
how small is Duncans petrol tank.
Now your just getting personal!!
Good video review for Duncan’s friends to know who to get a lift from.
how small is Duncans petrol tank.
17 gallons.
how small is Duncans petrol tank.
17 gallons.
so assuming an E class estate 3.5 V6 petrol.
510 miles minimum or 816 miles max
- yeah duncans still stopping less often for less time in todays market even with a 3.5 V6
And it’s not coping, it’s co-operation.
*sigh* energy security. Co-operation is great so long as we are co-operating or there are no technical failures. AFAIK Scotland is still looking at a week to get back up if we had a grid collapse, even with interconnects.
As for wind, fair point about that, I wasn't deliberately ignoring it. DOn't just look at headline figures though, you need to look at capacity figures which are often vastly different
so assuming an E class estate 3.5 V6 petrol.
I’ve no idea as Duncan doesn’t actually exists it’s all a joke. 🤦🏻♂️
Co-operation is great so long as we are co-operating or there are no technical failures.
So a bit like oil?
And bear in mind electric cars are as much a part of the solution as they are a problem.
They'll provide a sink for all the power generated overnight or as a weather front comes through, and could make you a few quid back when it's plugged in during the day putting some energy back into the grid.
It's genius in a way, there's been all sorts of falling out over green energy tariffs and levies added to consumers bills to pay for renewable generation. Which only really added upto a few hundred quid. Now we're convincing people to stump up tens of thousands! Still a good thing, just a bit ironic.
So a bit like oil?
How many oil fired power stations do we have?
How many electrical national reserves do we have?
To answer your question without a question, no, nothing like oil.
How many oil fired power stations do we have?
How many electrical national reserves do we have?
What are you talking about?
We rely heavily on all oil from other any disruption to that can cripple the country.
I'm talking about the national grid. We have strategic reserves (or can enact the creation of) for fuel. We have no way of storing electricity then pulling it out later.
*awaits smartarsed pumped storage comeback*
Why do you think self driving cars will result in fewer cars on the road?
My car currently goes from where I am to where I want to be. If I have to order a car to collect me it has to come from where it is, to where I am before it takes me to where I want to go. This is additional miles.
Also the comment above about most cars barely making it to 100,000 miles? Well in common with a lot of low earners, I buy cars at around that mileage and then run them for 8-10 years. I am very pro EV's but the age and range drop off does concern me. If I buy a Zoe for example at 10 years old, what sort of range will it realistically have, especially with the heater on to cope with a Scottish winter? And then am I looking at £6k to change the batteries? How does this work from an environmental point of view compared to my current car which is 19 years old, has nearly 200k miles on it and still does over 45MPG (measured average) on petrol?
What are you talking about?
Read what's written I think he's referring to you making another really poor analogy
Read what’s written I think he’s referring to you making another really poor analogy
You’re still upset about your friend Duncan not being real, aren’t you?
*sigh* energy security.
It's ok, I knew exactly what your angle was. I'd be interested to know more about Gov policy around national energy security
Something people aren't aware of is that millions of EV's plugged into the grid will serve the grid and become part of the infrastructure, engineers at the national grid have been planning for this outcome, for years. EVs will help with grid balancing, in theory we will need less power generation, not more. (until we start to phase out gas boilers, maybe)
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/media/batteries-wheels-and-smart-charging
Duncan Burt, Director of Operations National Grid (following end of fossil engine sales 2035 announcement the other day)
"I’m saying that the Transmission Grid and the power generation capacity can cope (smart charging means we can fit it in the overnight drop in demand). The DSOs have flagged risk of challenges for the local grid but they’re working on it..."
"happy to say again that we’re happy at @ng_eso that the additional electrical load can be met"
So fair enough, he's saying that there are challenges with infrastructure at a local level, but not national. Also worth pointing out that he won't be including the future contribution that EV's will make to the grid (V2G, V2H) in the future.
This might be worth looking at ofgems action plan for EV's and supporting offshore grid, published 3 Feb
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications-and-updates/rewiring-britain-net-zero-future-ofgem-publishes-decarbonisation-action-plan
Regarding the “trickle not a rush” point:
Source: https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/ via r/electricvehicles
Still small numbers in the overall market but 200% year-on-year growth seems promising.
All well and good saying cars can be used to store energy. Up until the first story of someone needing to get somewhere important quickly and their battery being dead*. Cue everyone unplugging as soon as they are charged.
Also relies on cars being plugged in for availability which, unless charging, is unlikely without incentives.
Please don't think I'm just gleefully pissing on your chips here, I want this to work but even with the best of intentions I don't believe it's you or I's responsibility to do the grids job for them. Fact is I don't believe we are close to having the grid resiliency required for renewables nor the capacity to deal with the sort of demands a modal shift to EVs would place on the system. Electric is not a silver bullet nor is it sustainable, for true sustainability you need diversity, both in supply and in demand.
*need not be true. Scooped by Heil or Express. Insert compo faced gammon holding plug here.
When I rent out my drive to Ubela .... for it to park and charge 4 of it's cars, 2mins away from a busy london commuter rail station .... will I get "free" use of them when I want ??
All well and good saying cars can be used to store energy. Up until the first story of someone needing to get somewhere important quickly and their battery being dead
I don't think they would just drain your car whenever they feel like it. That's clearly not a sustainable approach.
You'd have to opt-in, I'd imagine, for compensation, and you'd have to tell them a bit about your usage. So you'd say 'in the week I am only using this car to do 12 miles to work so you may take 20% of the energy if you need it and give me £5'
Teslas have now appeared on NHS Fleet leasing on a special deal. How much? Something up when Audi work out cheaper.
Something up when Audi work out cheaper.
why ?
tesla model 3 starts at 38k GBP audi A4 starts at 30k.
Id expect the model 3 to be more expensive to rent it costs more to buy.
I was going to do the Octopus vehicle to grid trial (just timing was bad in the end) - they're doing similar to most others where you set how much charge you need by a certain time then also have a baseline that it won't discharge past - so you can always have enough to head off if you need to unexpectedly. Incentivised by paying you I think £30 a month if you plug in evening to morning at least 12 times a month.
I’m talking about the national grid. We have strategic reserves (or can enact the creation of) for fuel. We have no way of storing electricity then pulling it out later.
*awaits smartarsed pumped storage comeback*
~20 million ~100kWh batteries distributed around the country should about cover it.
Also the comment above about most cars barely making it to 100,000 miles? Well in common with a lot of low earners, I buy cars at around that mileage and then run them for 8-10 years. I am very pro EV’s but the age and range drop off does concern me. If I buy a Zoe for example at 10 years old, what sort of range will it realistically have, especially with the heater on to cope with a Scottish winter? And then am I looking at £6k to change the batteries? How does this work from an environmental point of view compared to my current car which is 19 years old, has nearly 200k miles on it and still does over 45MPG (measured average) on petrol?
So do I (ish, I bought it quite a bit newer then put a lot of miles on it and have no intention of selling it any time soon).
Let's not get hung up on the ~100mile range hatchbacks like the Zoe and leaf. You wouldn't discredit ICE's based on the range of a BMW C1 would you?
Lets say you bought a Tesla fat 10 years old, and the battery was indeed knackered. Given there will be a lot of similar cars about generating demand for batteries either from Tesla or aftermarket refurbishment there'll be someone meeting that demand. Now if you want to keep the car for another 10 years, and lets say the battery replacement cost £10k, that's £1k a year (I'm sure someone will finance this, after all there's a tangible asset they can secure it against), assuming electricity stays at about the same cost as it does now then you would be in about the same position as before (spending about £1500/year on "fuel" assuming average use).
And as I keep pointing out, if your current situation is unsustainable (it is, just about everyone's in the UK is) and the "plan A" option of electric cars and maintaining our current lifestyle isn't suitable then we're heading towards a future where "plan B" which is not electric cars, but you will have to change your lifestyle because living a long way from work in a Scottish winter perhaps is the bit that's unsustainable.
why ?
tesla model 3 starts at 38k GBP audi A4 starts at 30k.
Id expect the model 3 to be more expensive to rent it costs more to buy.
Yeah! Wrong model. I think you need a better analogy.
Oooh! It’s now gone off the list it was a model 3 Vs E-Tron 50 by the way but no matter as the Tesla has gone
I've not read the whole 7 pages, so apologies if this has been covered, but the main concern I have with electric cars is the manufacture (and eventual disposal) of the batteries. See quote below from an article in the Newstatesman yesterday, the stats relate to just the UK's vehicles..... the amount of resources required if the whole planet goes electric for transport would be colossal. This would have it's own environmental impact (e.g. subsea mining).... and may not be economic as the price of these resources e.g. Cobalt rises with demand.
Hydrogen powered vehicles, with the hydrogen produced using renewable electricity generation seems more realistic to me. No range anxiety issue either, and the existing refuelling infrastructure could be reused.
A wider problem with the DoT’s strategy is that it is almost entirely based on switching to electric vehicles. In 2019 a letter written by Professor Richard Herrington of the Natural History Museum and signed by several of the UK’s leading geologists, raised concerns over the quantities of relatively rare resources that would be needed to replace every petrol and diesel car in the country with an electric vehicle. This would, Herrington wrote, require, “just under two times the total annual world cobalt production, nearly the entire world production of neodymium, three quarters of the world’s lithium production and at least half of the world’s copper production during 2018”.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/environment/2020/02/how-get-net-zero
Hydrogen powered vehicles, with the hydrogen produced using renewable electricity generation seems more realistic to me.
The trouble with hydrogen is...
Specially designed fuel cells may well make that safe, but you have to still have to get past that image problem.
Paul0 they’re not the definitive answer, no. They do come with some of their own issues, the batteries can be reused recycled by the way, but for now they’re their the next stage. Hydrogen might be next but for now EV is proving easier to design and manufacturer, battery technology is also changing to use other materials.
Hydrogen is a dead end for personal cars. It is just another way to store electricity, but is a less efficient way to do so and comes with all sorts of issues around generating it, transporting it, storing it and dispensing it. 15kWh of electricity in a BEV will get you about 60 miles. In a hydrogen car it'll get you closer to 20.
It is obviously extremely flammable as shown above, needs storing and dispensing at ridiculously high pressures, and just wants to escape in to space all the time. And the cars still need batteries in them. And who wants to be tied to visiting a specific forecourt run by a fuel company when every building with an electricity supply is capable of charging a car?
On explosion - yes agree Hydrogen not ideal although petrol is also pretty volatile. Fair points around efficiency too, however arguably it's less critical when the energy is from a renewable source. Re batteries I just question where there all the materials are going to come from.... where there's a will and $$$ I'm sure sources will be found, but it might not be pretty. Hopefully there will be a breakthrough in battery technology...
On explosion – yes agree Hydrogen not ideal although petrol is also pretty volatile
The Hindenburg was actually the canvas burning, the hydrogen is the big fireball above it (which is relatively fine, nowhere near people).
Petrol, LPG etc tend to collect at low points however and therefore kill you to death when they burn.
Hydrogen is simultaneously ludicrously expensive to produce, yet considered a waste product to be burnt at refineries because it's such a PITA to transport/store and therefor has little commercial value. Unless you can develop a way of moving sensible quantities of it around the country it's a non starter. You can't for example put it in something resembling a standard road tanker. It looks something more like this:
You can’t for example put it in something resembling a standard road tanker.
Unless you liquify it
simon_g
Subscriber
I was going to do the Octopus vehicle to grid trial (just timing was bad in the end) – they’re doing similar to most others where you set how much charge you need by a certain time then also have a baseline that it won’t discharge past – so you can always have enough to head off if you need to unexpectedly. Incentivised by paying you I think £30 a month if you plug in evening to morning at least 12 times a month.
Would you have had to buy an inverter or did they supply one? I presume you have a Nissan then?
The Hindenburg was actually the canvas burning, the hydrogen is the big fireball above it
So it wasn’t electric discharge causing a spark igniting the hydrogen?
which is relatively fine, nowhere near people
I’m not sure a fireball crashing to the ground can be described as fine.
I mean 13 passengers and 23 crew were killed.
But apart from that, it was fine.
Let’s not get hung up on the ~100mile range hatchbacks like the Zoe and leaf. You wouldn’t discredit ICE’s based on the range of a BMW C1 would you?
Lets say you bought a Tesla
Zoé 50: 395km WLTP 25 640e fast charge with battery on the road
Tesla Model 3 standard plus: 409km WLTP 43 600e (say 44 500e on the road)
B.A.Nana > Octopus have a car leasing arm, so the deal was to lease a new Nissan Leaf at a discounted rate and the V2G Chademo charger and install included. You just give both the car and charger back at the end.
~20 million ~100kWh batteries distributed around the country should about cover it.
All plugged in? Sounds a bit hopes and dreams more than anything solidly reliable.
I was going to do the Octopus vehicle to grid trial (just timing was bad in the end) – they’re doing similar to most others where you set how much charge you need by a certain time then also have a baseline that it won’t discharge past – so you can always have enough to head off if you need to unexpectedly. Incentivised by paying you I think £30 a month if you plug in evening to morning at least 12 times a month.
Ah, so there is an incentive. Thanks for that.
Specially designed fuel cells may well make that safe, but you have to still have to get past that image problem.
Never did the image problem of petrochemicals any harm.
So yeah, we were talking about image problems?
we’re heading towards a future where “plan B” which is not electric cars, but you will have to change your lifestyle because living a long way from work in a Scottish winter perhaps is the bit that’s unsustainable.
You mean to say the solution isn't just replacing every car like for like? That maybe we need drastic changes to our lifestyles that are, frankly unsustainable? I mean, it's not like I haven't been saying this from the very beginning...
You mean to say the solution isn’t just replacing every car like for like? That maybe we need drastic changes to our lifestyles that are, frankly unsustainable? I mean, it’s not like I haven’t been saying this from the very beginning…
But what have you been doing, Squirrelking? Have you put your money and lifestyle wher your mouth is? Is your lifestyle sustainable?
Unlimited travel is unsustainable..
*WE* (that’s every single one of us humans) need to stop rushing around the planet as though we own it.
Switching from petrol/diesel to electric may reduce our co2 output a little, (or, at least, move the emissions somewhere else, like a power station) but it’s nowhere near enough.
I wondered how long it would take for this to become a discussion about the sustainability of electric cars. @squirrelking has it right - the unsustainable part is expecting the majority of journeys to take place inside your own sealed, multi-ton metal box. Going electric has at best marginal benefits, depending on your priorities. EVs require a lot more energy to manufacture (mostly the batteries, but modern electronics and semiconductors also require an enormous amount of energy to manufacture), as well as all the associated chargers and other electronic support hardware. This largely offsets any C02 emission decrease from using grid power, instead of a small ICE, to power your car. The materials used in an EV are scarce, currently non-renewable, and located in underdeveloped parts of the world where the sudden inflow of money and investment removes many concerns about environmental destruction. IMHO, the main benefit (which I really appreciate as a cycle commuter) is externalising environmental pollution to the countries where EVs are manufactured and later disposed of.
But what have you been doing, Squirrelking? Have you put your money and lifestyle wher your mouth is? Is your lifestyle sustainable?
I'm doing my best but frankly don't have the financial resources available to go all singing all dancing. Sometimes getting a legislative shove doesn't hurt either.
Both our cars are over 10 years old and regularly serviced, I see no reason why they couldn't last a similar amount of time. One does get regular use on a 50 odd mile round trip, we know that's problematic and have discussed the possibility of moving closer but financial and social considerations have to be made. Also the fact that right now it would mean longer, more regular trips by car to work.
I try to cycle locally and to work where possible (but when it's lashing down with a 30+ mph headwind and 50+ gusts then I do take the easy option). My leisure cycling is now being planned around the local area or where I can get to via public transport, luckily I can get trains at a special rate otherwise that would just make it easier and cheaper to drive. All our bikes are old, built mainly of second hand parts (barring my daughters) and I tend to hold on to bikes for a ling time.
The house has been insulated since we got it with a modern combi installed but really has a long way to go and I know gas isn't the answer.
Give me a wad of money and of course I could make significant improvements but we're in our 30s with a young child and a mortgage.
I'm not claiming to be perfect or even close to the poster child for sustainability, nor have I ever claimed to be. What I do understand though is that as twrch and martymac say claiming electric cars are a silver bullet is just greenwashing the entire issue.
I mean 13 passengers and 23 crew were killed.
But apart from that, it was fine.
Titanic was on water and hit a lump of frozen water...that wasn't exactly safe, was it.
Lots of people are over-thinking this, EVs are just a 20-30 year stop-gap before teleporters come online, have faith.
All good Sqirrelking and running old cars into the ground is the best CO2 solution unless that running into the ground is more than 80 000km. Because that's the break even on CO2 for a lot of electric cars (this depends on the elctricity energy mix of the area you live in). What people should avoid is buying a new ICE car.
Always makes me lauch when people say "but extracting rare earth elements is polluting"
Yes, yes it is, but:
1) Those elements are not actually "used up" by the vehicle, and hence can be recycled and re-used. If it proves expensive and dirty to extract those elements, then that actually makes it more likely that they will be re-cycled! (nobody throws away a gold watch, everybody throws away a plastic one.....)
2) Do they assume that extracting hydrocarbon fuels is clean? Lets face it, the environmental damage done by the extraction of oil and coal will outweigh that done by any other industry for thousands of years!
The haterz have me convinced.
EVs are completely pointless and we should stick with fossil fuels until we've burnt through every last drop of, I'm sure we'll figure out an alternative when it happens...unless we've cooked or drowned to death due to climate change before then.
we should stick with fossil fuels until we’ve burnt through every last drop of, I’m sure we’ll figure out an alternative when it happens
I can see amphibious cars making a comeback...
<classy comment>
oh and Maddie.....Mmmmmmmm
</classy comment>
Those elements are not actually “used up” by the vehicle, and hence can be recycled and re-used
Some, yes. Not all, yet.
If it proves expensive and dirty to extract those elements, then that actually makes it more likely that they will be re-cycled! (nobody throws away a gold watch
Dirty and expensive don't usually go together. Clean and expensive do. You'd be amazed what people throw out.
I've been waiting since I was young for someone to realize that life size scalextric was the answer to all our problems.
Timing might be the issue with sustainability...
If we were a couple of years further down the road with vehicles that can, and the insight to, use electric vehicle batteries as household renewable power storage units and allow homes to pull power from these vehicles as well as charge them, then maybe the government decisions to keep investing in fossil fuel based infrastructure would have been different and we would have had a tipping point towards green tech.
E.g. Canada purchased transmountain oil pipeline for $4.5bn ($12bn expansion). BC continues to push forwards with a $13bn mega dam aimed at delivering power to the LNG industry. Feds continue to green light $7bn gas pipeline to BC coast for LNG export. Feds poised to expand alberta oilsands production with no sign of enforcing any existing cleanups.
If that money could have been spent implementing microgrids allowing neighborhoods to generate renewable energy, store it in their vehicles in addition to grid distribution, there'd be no need for these huge greenhouse gas emitting projects.
Aging batteries from early gen EVs downcycled into home/microgrid storage, could even use motors in reverse as off grid generators etc.
Titanic was on water and hit a lump of frozen water…that wasn’t exactly safe, was it.
Even worse the ice contained hydrogen.
Dihydrogen monoxide was it? Dangerous shit.
Wasn't around during the Hindenburg. Was it the hydrogen catching fire or the people hitting the floor that was the dangerous part ?
Deadly stuff yet they it’s contained in bottled water.
Relatively speaking it was electrical spark.
nobody throws away a gold watch
Are "gold watches" actually a thing? I always assumed they were a metaphor. Are we throwing away metaphors now? What will we do when the supply is exhausted?
Apparently now those foolish ignorant idiots at the royal mail, the largest fleet operators in Europe, have gone and committed to buying electric vans and charging infrastructure. LOL 🤦 Why can't they catch a bus or train to deliver post into the middle of nowhere?
Apparently now those foolish ignorant idiots at the royal mail, the largest fleet operators in Europe, have gone and committed to buying electric vans
Yes however that means **** all. Example is I have a client who has insisted to his forklift supplier tha tthey will not accept anything but electric forklift. Even their 18tonnerz must be electric. Currently there isn't an outdoor rated* electric 18tonne forklift.
Client insists.
It's all show . So I wouldn't be swayed by a company making a status play.
* For UK climate
Always makes me lauch when people say “but extracting rare earth elements is polluting”
Yes, yes it is, but:
1) Those elements are not actually “used up” by the vehicle, and hence can be recycled and re-used. If it proves expensive and dirty to extract those elements, then that actually makes it more likely that they will be re-cycled! (nobody throws away a gold watch, everybody throws away a plastic one…..)
2) Do they assume that extracting hydrocarbon fuels is clean? Lets face it, the environmental damage done by the extraction of oil and coal will outweigh that done by any other industry for thousands of years!
Wouldn't it be better if we found a better way full stop? One that doesn't involve depleting resources just so everyone can have their own personal car?
Modal shift is needed. EV's make sense in larger towns and cities. Except they don't because it's the right place for affordable mass transit. Get the low hanging fruit out the way then deal with the sticks. But people don't want these solutions because that means giving up a lifestyle (it's also horrifically expensive in the UK)
Apparently now those foolish ignorant idiots at the royal mail, the largest fleet operators in Europe, have gone and committed to buying electric vans and charging infrastructure. LOL 🤦 Why can’t they catch a bus or train to deliver post into the middle of nowhere?
See above.
Also, anyone who drives a "lifestyle vehicle" should have it crushed. Preferably with them inside it. See how they like their wee metal box then.[/trollface]
Example is I have a client who has insisted to his forklift supplier tha tthey will not accept anything but electric forklift.
Actually Trail_rat you've prompted me (and I note your anecdote is outside so different), but the amount of black dust (gas oil/red diesel particulates) that we get thickly caked on boxes that I've presumed can only have come from diesel forklifts in warehouses is really concerning for warehouse pickers and forklift drivers. Genuinely, I've always wondered why it hasn't been long ago flagged as a major H&S issue. The black particulate dust is often there caked on the top of our delivered boxes for everyone to see. I've actually never been to a warehouse, so maybe in an enclosed environment they all do wear some sort of dust mask around diesel forklifts these days, I dunno.
I very much doubt any dust will be from exhaust particulate, warehouse trucks will be lpg or electric but doubtful diesel would be allowed to spend any great time indoors.
Before I continue, I should probably summarise my actual opinion: Radical changes are needed to make our civilisation sustainable. Buying "green" replacements for our existing lifestyle choices is not even close to what is needed. The primary change is a huge reduction in energy usage - right now, we have unprecedented access to cheap energy (from hydrocarbons), and use huge amounts for transport, heating, and in the form of embodied energy in the products we buy (the embodied energy of a new laptop is equivalent to 45 gallons of oil, or 1.6MWh). This is why most of my arguments centre around energy usage - depending if you think nuclear has a place in a sustainable future, there will simply be a lot less energy available after a switch to renewable sources.
80 000km. Because that’s the break even on CO2 for a lot of electric cars
My point exactly - you have to drive at least 1/3rd of an EVs life before you break even in CO2 emissions from manufacturing, and only then do you start emitting less (but still a lot!) than an ICE car - and all of this is highly dependent on your grid supply. This is a marginal gain, and doesn't even take into account the disposal and recycling costs (which, if it were actually done, would be very energy-intensive). If I cycle to work, I use 25x less energy. Now that's a proper gain.
Those elements are not actually “used up” by the vehicle, and hence can be recycled and re-used. If it proves expensive and dirty to extract those elements, then that actually makes it more likely that they will be re-cycled!
Maybe, but if it's currently cheaper (and therefore, likely less energy-intensive) to mine these minerals, then the cost of EVs (in both manufacturing energy and money) will go up once we switch to fully recycling old EVs.
Do they assume that extracting hydrocarbon fuels is clean? Lets face it, the environmental damage done by the extraction of oil and coal will outweigh that done by any other industry for thousands of years!
I'm amazed you think that is true. On this list of the ten most polluted areas in the world, hydrocarbons only hit number 9: http://www.atchuup.com/most-toxic-places-on-the-planet/ Ironically, e-waste processing is at number 1.
If it is so important to switch to EVs to reduce CO2 emissions, why isn't there a similar enthusiasm to switch to electric heating and hot water? It's exactly the same argument.
I'm not saying it's all bad, I'm pointing out it is not as simple as "buy an EV to help save the plant". IMHO there is too much influence from politicians trying to get on board the green train, and from industry, to sell more stuff.
Agree twrch, it’s a fallacy that the carbon output from the universal strategies of economic growth through consumption and travel can be made carbon neutral with eg electric cars, banning plastic straws, using paper bags and dubious offsetting schemes. The real challenge is mass acceptance of an increasingly low carbon lifestyle which will probably only be possible through financial disincentives which is a worry as are usually very unpopular with the public and therefore with politicians.
I do have an EV and plan to have it for years and realise the significant limitations. More importantly am trying to address my carbon-rich lifestyle and reduce my carbon footprint as much as possible.
but the amount of black dust (gas oil/red diesel particulates) that we get thickly caked on boxes that I’ve presumed can only have come from diesel forklifts in warehouses is really concerning
Is this presumption based on any kind of....y'know fact?