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Anyone done this?
In short: Bought a house 6 months ago, paid £600 for the survey, all seemed fine
Further down the road, found significant leaks through roof felt, chimney flashing, party wall render. All now need replacing at a cost of £4k. Three builders all identified issues within mins of arriving + we now have text messages from the previous owners showing that its been there for years and they are surprised the survey didnt pick it up.
The surveyor has offered £100 as goodwill for missing something else (unrelated) but are sticking firm that they did everything correct on the above, stating that their general disclaimers are enough to cover this despite the survey stating that the roof and roof structure was in "good condition"
Some googling suggests that the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 can over ride this on a few things
I initially asked for a full refund
Anyone done this? Thoughts?
Good luck...
Caveats galore...
I'd save your money and effort
Good luck. Its time some of these ‘professionals’ were held to more account for their service.
I take it this was a full survey? As always, it will depend on the precise wording used by the surveyor: conditional 'appears to be in good condition' vs absolute 'in good condition', and whether they had access/would reasonably be expected to gain access to spot the problem.
Was the defect clearly visible from ground level on the outside, or floor level from the inside, or did it require entering the roof space, and if so, did the surveyor say that they had done this?
This profession has had centuries of experience of covering their arses with disclaimers and precise wording, so you'll need a watertight case, so to speak.
Anyone done this? Thoughts?
I'd be interested to find out...
I'm not sure the level of incompetence approaches ours though.
Paid £700 (if I remember) 7 yrs ago for a full structural survey.
First sign it was BS was the "electric fire" listed in the living room was gas.
Everything else has been as bad...
Sewage pipe under living room was literally stacked on a pile of rubble ... toilets with overflow going into the eaves (above boiler) .. leaks in the roof, windows actually falling out... 6" missing guttering on a couple of sides so it was just squeezed together...
Possibly the worst was a leaking mains water pipe... I found it due to the floor rotting in one room (I started simply taking the carpet out to put in an engineered wood floor... found the mould and board rotten through... took those up and found the joists rotten through.. and had run under the tiled kitchen as well
The worst thing... when I repaired the pipe joint the compression Olive was missing a bit... I'm 100% certain it didn't fall out so the entire thing was caused by a damaged 10p olive being used.
Sewage pipe under living room was literally stacked on a pile of rubble … toilets with overflow going into the eaves (above boiler) .. leaks in the roof, windows actually falling out… 6″ missing guttering on a couple of sides so it was just squeezed together…
Possibly the worst was a leaking mains water pipe… I found it due to the floor rotting in one room (I started simply taking the carpet out to put in an engineered wood floor… found the mould and board rotten through… took those up and found the joists rotten through.. and had run under the tiled kitchen as well
I'd expect a surveyor to spot some of this, obviously, but I wouldn't expect them to access the space under the living room or lift carpets.
@Martin, they use the word appears several times but yes the issues are visible from the ground with no access required (now I know what I'm looking for - the builder all spotted it right away and all said the same)
Thanks Duncan and Chris. Tempted to save myself the stress too but leaves a bitter taste
I'd say probably not much chance. House surveys are rubbish much better paying a builder to go and have a look if you know one. They can actually lift carpets and go up a ladder into the loft. Had full survey on first house I bought it was a complete waste of money, never bothered again. The courts will only add to your stress and upset I'm afraid.
My view on structural surveys is their only value is some kind of insurance/alarm against something catastrophically wrong with the house - ie proper falling-down wrong, tens of thousands to fix minimum. In those circumstances I'd be more inclined to go after the surveyor for something they should have spotted.
If they spot less serious problems which lets me haggle 4K off the asking price, that's a bonus.
Unless the surveyor has unambiguously declared the roof sound and the fault is, as you say, bleeding obvious, I don't think you'll get much joy from legal action.
we now have text messages from the previous owners showing that its been there for years and they are surprised the survey didnt pick it up
And did they advise you of those faults at the time? Didn't think so.
Did they seem surprised when you didn't mention it and ask for a reduction or at least a quote for work after the survey? Didn't think so.
Did you see the damage from the significant leaks when you viewed or might it have been behind that newly located bookcase?
Slapping a bit of stain paint etc on things to hide leaks, moving cupboards to cover cracks and filling the loft to the brim and coincidentally hiding £000s of pounds of roof defects so it doesn't get taken off the offer etc. in order to sell at the highest price is unfortunately par for the course,
Regrettably many of the issues people have with surveys are that the sellers are underhand not surveyors crap.
That being said there are plenty of the latter too.
In your particular case I'm not sure how felt would be visible externally? Flashing possibly, [external?] wall rendering, to the point of leaks should have been plainly visible to everyone who looked at the property, unless of course it was dilberately not visible to anyone...
Thanks all
My survey failed to notice that the utility room sink had no plumbing for the waste pipe! When I ran the taps the first time I noticed immediately. See how you get on.
May be worth discussing with Citizen's Advice; many moons ago I had a surveyor let me down in the same way, and with a bit of assistance from Which? he coughed up, just before the county court hearing.
In your particular case I’m not sure how felt would be visible externally?
Are you saying that for £600 for a full survey you wouldn't expect him to have stuck his nose in the loft space? At that price he should have spent a few hours doing his job properly, not with binoculars from the car park.
A few caveats (e.g. gas or electric, or no access) may be acceptable, but not ignoring obvious defects.
£600 is surely not a full structural survey. Thats usually thousands as its much more complex
I'd send the surveyor a "letter before action" and see if that shakes loose a better offer from them. I would then forget about it.
Good luck. Had a survey done on a potential purchase & it came back with a clean bill of health. When I stuck my head up into the attic there were signs of obvious water ingress & blackening from leaks out of the chimney. The surveyor in his own words said "I never even put my head into the attic....ever" Apparently this is normal practice & there are a number of get-outs written into the survey. I'd read the small print before proceeding further.
Worth talking to Citizens Advice Bureau before you make a final decision on what to do?
TJ:
Level One survey Condition report £300 Level Two survey Condition + Homebuyer report £450 Level Three survey Building survey £550
Copyright Checkatrade. Using this information in an article or blog? Please add a link back to https://www.checkatrade.com/blog/cost-guides/house-survey-costs/
£4K sounds cheap can I have details of your builder please!
The surveyor the buyers have instructed have 'invented' lots of issues with MIL's house - damp this and that - there is no damp. Major crack requiring £000's to fix, was actually old ceiling wall paper pealing off due to the number of coats of paint it had had over years - my wife pulled all the paper off, and photographed a less than 1mm crack where the plasterboard joined.
We've told the buyers it's rubbish. Buyers have finally accepted.
A leak is something else though, that's a major miss.
You might have an angle on the text message. They will have filled a form in which requires them to state any known faults, I think (from memory). This is evidence they knew and didn’t declare
dafydd17
Thats not a full structural survey. I would expect to pay thousands for a full structural survey
he surveyor in his own words said “I never even put my head into the attic….ever” Apparently this is normal practice & there are a number of get-outs written into the survey.
I can understand the reasoning for this, at least from the surveyor's perspective. As soon as they stick their head in and shine a torch around, it could immediately be claimed that any problem with the roof etc should have been spotted, even those which required the surveyor to climb right in and crawl into the far corner trusting that the joists are OK.
The problem is that it is described as a 'full structural survey', but they don't really look for anything more than the most obvious of issues. For valuation surveys I doubt they even get out of the car these days.
£600 is surely not a full structural survey. Thats usually thousands as its much more complex
No, £600 is about the going rate.
Had one this year.
In your particular case I’m not sure how felt would be visible externally?
Are you saying that for £600 for a full survey you wouldn’t expect him to have stuck his nose in the loft space? At that price he should have spent a few hours doing his job properly,
It was more in response to
yes the issues are visible from the ground with no access required (now I know what I’m looking for – the builder all spotted it right away and all said the same)
But no, I'd expect the surveyor to at best, lift the loft hatch and put their head in it, I'd absolutely expect the report to be clear about that and that they hadn't been on the loft and only (at best) looked from the hatch unless it's properly laddered and fully boarded, because that what everyone I've ever seen has said.
However, it's taken the op six months to notice the problem, that means it wasn't visible on day one, or day 101 yet its "been there for years" and its (now) clearly visible from the ground outside.
That, to me, sounds like a very clear case of "let's hide that and hope they don't notice", the more significant the problem, the better the effort to hide it. IMO There's no way a leak that's been there for years goes unnoticed by the op, the surveyor, the OP's other half, inlaws etc for 6 months without it having been deliberately obscured.
No, £600 is about the going rate.
Had one this year.
Full survey or full structural survey? (which so far as I'm aware isn't something you can do without pulling off plaster, lifting floor boards getting onto the roof and things)
Re the lead flashing round the chimney,just have a read of this before you assume it's leaking from the flashing
In a lot of old houses damp patches on the chimney breast that look like a leak are actually due to hygroscopic salts from decades of burning coal and wood.
If you house is new then it wont be this,but if it's old then don't just assume it's lead flashing. Ask me how I know?
We had damp on chimney breast,builder saidlead flashing is defective,paid to get that fixed, the damp continues however. Eventually after getting many men in we conclude it is chimney salts.
A builder will default to thecause being building problems.
A roofer will say you need a new roof
Etc etc
Getting a proper diagnosis of chimney salts is nigh on Impossible
Its a racket. The charge a fortune for doing bugger all and cover their arses with maybe's.
Same as most stuff to do with buying houses.
Full survey or full structural survey? (which so far as I’m aware isn’t something you can do without pulling off plaster, lifting floor boards getting onto the roof and things)
Really? If I was selling a house there's no way that a surveyor for a seller who may pull out is lifting carpets and pulling off plaster.
If the requirement was to inspect the roof from close quarters then, if I were a surveyor, I'd need to fulfil working at height regs so might need scaffolding/access tower etc.
The charge a fortune for doing bugger all
That's grossly unfair. They go to great lengths to put a name, any name, and address ontop of that copy pasted letter.
I enquired about a house for sale recently and it came with a structural survey, and the jist of it was "there is some stuff we found but if you find anything else wrong it's not our fault, even if it's really obvious"
A "structural survey" is far more detailed than a "full survey" It would include things like roof structure and type with an inspection of the roof, underfloor conditions, possible camera inspections of hard to reach spots etc etc
Many folk think they have had a structural survey done when they have not due to sneaky wording
Went back to surveyor to query when structural issues became apparent, and further investigation was suggested.
They said "yes, that was a full structural survey".
What more can I tell you?
Its a racket. The charge a fortune for doing bugger all and cover their arses with maybe’s.
I'm going to be bold though and say £600 is not a fortune though. Take the VAT off and its £500. So its a professional person's full day rate*. Get the instructions from you, Invoice & Process the payment, Travel to site and back, do the site visit, write the report, send the report to you, answer any questions or queries, possibly supply copies of the same report to your mortgage company or solicitor. Record all the relevant details so you have a record/trail if anyone ever comes complaining, probably jump through various compliance hoops with your professional body. It does feel like you probably aren't doing more than one proper survey per day.
*don't expect them to be getting that as take home - they'll get 1/3 to 1/2 that because they have advertising, probably an office, admin staff, professional fees, indemnity insurance, potentially senior management time etc to pay.
Also, daft question op, was this the first time the house was offered for sale? When we were looking it seemed that everything where a sale had fallen through and then the house was re-offered anything other than immediately came with a lovely whiff of fresh paint*. It became something of a game guessing exactly what the previous survey had turned up and caused the sale to fall through and was now hidden behind £200 of farrow and ball.
*actual methods of hiding stuff vary. One had a new 10' tree planted in the lawn that hadn't been there on the previous listing. Wtf do you hide with a tree?
TJ
Many folk think they have had a structural survey done when they have not due to sneaky wording
Quite possibly/probably but I think the main issue as I remember is you organise the whole thing, have mortgage lined up etc.
At this point most of us have been through a grinder with estate agents, mortgage etc and T&C's and think you're engaging a professional who's going to do more than the "minimum" required by lender.
When they do get to the "don't stick my head into the attic" it's too late.
I think you’re all missing the point. The vendors have admitted to ommitting information from the property information form.
IME the survey isn't really for you, it's a guide for the bank /mortgage co to just give them a bit of assurance that The property actually exists and on the face of it, there's nothing really bad that is going to effect the price if they have to repossess and sell it on.
YOU are the buyer, it's up to you to make sure that what you're buying is what it says on the tin. Get friendly with the builder that's going to do the work, and next time you buy a house, ask the sellers if the builder can come around before you buy and just take a squint at everything first; because as you've just discovered...
Three builders all identified issues within mins of arriving
Chalk this up to experience, and in future just think of the survey as another bank fee.
I think you’re all missing the point. The vendors have admitted to ommitting information from the property information form.
Are you new here? I mean, you're right, but we've not even got onto Brexit or how it's Corbyn's fault yet. Until that's done no one is allowed to acknowledge anything on the first page.
dangeourbrain
Also, daft question op, was this the first time the house was offered for sale?
Not a daft question but yes first time
ask the sellers if the builder can come around before you buy and just take a squint at everything first; because as you’ve just discovered…
Three builders all identified issues within mins of arriving
Thing with that is they're looking for a cause of an obvious problem at that point, given the op can see the effects now but not on viewing, the surveyor didn't see the effects even on viewing it follows they weren't obvious to see at the point, eg they've been hidden.
I'm not a plumber but, show me water bubbling out of the floor and I'll quickly tell you you've got a leaky pipe. Otoh, turn the stopcock off, throw a rug over it then invite a plumber round and tell him nothing and he won't spot a hole the size of his thumb in the same pipe that's under the floor.
Which then brings us back to...
northernremedy
Full Member
I think you’re all missing the point. The vendors have admitted to ommitting information from the property information form
RICS, Royal Institute of Charterd Surveyors have a policing system for all their members. Look at their web site, they have a reporting system you can use if you are unhappy with one of their members.
I have used this in the past, with great success. Surveyors all have insurance...!
Two points:
- what type of survey did you commission and did you fully read/understand the Ts&Cs including exclusions and limitations on liability. Ts&Cs should be RICS approved so contact them but that's unlikely to deliver much/anything for you.
- contact your solicitor/conveyancer regarding legality of vendors (knowingly) omitting information from the property information disclosure form; you may have some redress going down that route particularly as the vendors have confirmed (some of) the known issues in texts.
EDIT - having read dexa's comment about success with RICS, I may have been wrong in suggesting that wouldn't deliver much.
They said “yes, that was a full structural survey”
I would expect a structural survey to be done by a structural engineer, MIStructE or at the least AMIStructE, and would only include the structure, but in more detail, ie, not including electrics or plumbing unless there was an effect on structure, but investigating any structural issues fully, including intrusive work if that was necessary. A "full" survey would be done by a surveyor, RICS, and include everything visible My first port of call would be a complaint to the professional body. I can't speak for RICS, but IStructE takes complaints very seriously.
i always though most house surveys now done as a drive-by without actually entering the property?
surely you looked at the property prior to purchase too? if its that obvious...
And did they advise you of those faults at the time?
Was going to make the same point.
To be honest in the OP's shoes I'd be writing to the surveyor to ask if there were signs, explain why, then, that in hand, asking a solicitor (assuming a (your) conveyancing one is the place to start?) about going after the original vendor and their solicitor/estate agent for the full cost of remedial work as they're legally required to declare the problems these days.
as they’re legally required to declare the problems these days.
Just to be a bit obtuse, surely the vendor is required to reasonably answer the questions asked of them in the contract. So, have the questions been asked? And replied to? And is there anything relevant?
AFAIK there's no overbearing compunction to declare things.
AFAIK there’s no overbearing compunction to declare things.
From the previous link.
So far as I'm aware, one of the questions on the questionnaire will also relate to the state and fabric of the building.
And even then if the problem has been there for years, the seller was aware but its not been obvious on viewing, on survey or on moving in, but it now is, why wasn't it? Without effort to deceive or conceal its difficult to see how that would be the case.
A link to Chancellors? Are we trusting estate agents these days, then?
The form is a TA6. I'm not aware there's anything in there where a vendor needs to say what the condition of the place is. So, the seller needs to answer the questions on it to the best of their knowledge. And that's it as far as I can tell.
OP needs to look at the responses to the texts and see if the vendor has mis-answered something in the contract.
I must say I thought it was the sellers responsibility to disclose any issues with the property that they were aware of. Ie when I sold my flat I had to be up front that the roof was buggered and required work
So if they knew and didn’t tell you isn’t it them you can pursue?
I'd say if you do it, expect a long drawn out process.
A family member bought a house, after a structural survey, and then found heavy subsidence.
The surveyor admitted fault very quickly, but then followed 5 years of drawn out, and expensive, legal work to settle on the damages.
I believe over £200k in legal and professional fees, lots of stress and a risk of not even getting costs covered if they won.
They won in the end, but the stress it caused was immense. If you can suck it up and move on, I would.
I dont think you’ll get anywhere by taking him to Court. As said previously,there will be a lot of caveats in his Contract, take the £100 and put it down to experience.
I see it as a race to the bottom, you are not going to get a thorough survey for £600. We recently paid £350 for a house valuation from an RICS Surveyor. He was here for around 30 minutes. He took a load of pics, and obviously did a lot more work in his office, I paid, as I thought he did a pretty good report, and highlighted a number of things thta could be improved in the house. A good survey would take a minimum of 3 hours on site, probably a lot more, so £600 isnt going to get that.
Its the same in my work, electrical. Doing house inspections isnt worth doing any more. I’d charge £150 minimum for a small flat inspection, £200+ for a 3 bed house. There are Companies out there doing them for £50. It is impossible to do it properly in less than 3 hours. But the people ordering these reports are not bothered, they just want the bit of paper to say it is safe (which isnt true in many cases Ive seen).
A link to Chancellors? Are we trusting estate agents these days, then?
I don't know, they seem to have some useful advice for Caesar.
‘caveat emperor’
When we sold earlier in the year we knew we needed a new roof. Before we accepted the offer we insisted on speaking to the buyers to make sure they knew what they were buying (a 1900s house that needed a new roof and work, not a plug and play new build). But even we were surprised by how shabby it looked when all the furniture was out. It's amazing what you become used to.
Personally I'd have had to have said about a leak if I knew about it.
Not sure how I'd proceed - £4k is a lot, but not in the scheme of house fixes. I'd be inclined to chalk it up yo experience.
The seller only needs to answer the questions set out in the TA6. There isn’t a defect disclosure question as a seller is assumed to not have the skill or expertise to answer reasonably. That’s the role of the surveyor.