Taking a pay cut to avoid annoying staff - Teaching

Manage them out?

How much is £300 to you?

If you earn £400 it's probably a daft idea, if you earn £3,000 it sounds worth it to get rid of the agro

Seems drastic to me. What about giving them enough latitude to run things as they wish within a framework you define, with objectives that get measured? If they can’t do it then you take action?

Seems odd though they are good teachers but bad colleagues - if they are resistant to change then have you asked why or given them the opportunity to get to the desired outcome their way?

Other thing I would do is try getting training on conflict management. Appreciate probably not much budget for that though. Maybe have a read of some Harvard Business Review cases studies!

In many jobs, if you don’t do as you are told/follow orders, you find yourself out of a job, why is teaching different?

Are the bad teachers nearing retirement? If so, can you play wait-and-see?

Orders ? What are you ? The ****ing Gestapo ?? 😉

why is teaching different?

Hard to believe. But it is. As the manager your more likely to get put on the pip than they are.

Some ways I use with different personalities who work for me:

• Listen to their moans and try to appease them, sometimes people moan about things that are easy and cheap to fix.
• Praise the good elements, and gently try to tease out the bad behavior, this can take a while.
• Punish the bad behavior, and police your firm stance with zero tolerance. This would obviously upset most if not all people, but some people actually need this imo. But you need to treat everybody the same or you'll be accused of bullying. This is hard work, you can create a rod for your own back here.
• Empower them to take responsibility for improving their issues. This can be really effective IMO, I had one 60+ old guy who was incredibly awkward to deal with, I told him I really needed him to help me out and his experience and skills were essential in this, but really I gave him an easy job to do in a corner of the building that would require minimal management. He loved it!
• Lastly, just be honest, tell them the predicament you're in and ask them if they could help you by being more agreeable. They have to respect or like you for this one to work.
• What doesn't work is a wishy washy approach, you need to be consistent.

But of you're not up for they fight then take the pay cut as your mental health is more important than a few quid.

I was in a similar position a few years ago...

Head of DT and ICT faculty and the teachers I line managed were all older than me and in two cases previous HoD's.

All good teachers, but not inclined to listen to me, just smile and nod 😆

I did my best for 3 years and then took a bit of a paycut - similar to what you're looking at - for a whole lot less hassle!

Guaranteed you won't loose the agro by virtue you are still around.  Demotion never works out as through you remove responsibilities in practice, it's a bit like going from 5 to 4 days, with a pay cut, you still work 5!

Simon Breakspear does a series of talks for middle leadership on team health and agile management. Some of it is quite good and I'm probably a serial moaner. But thanks to these I know why and can see a way to manage a more positive interaction. (Whether it'd be successful is another question).

why is teaching different?

Hard to believe. But it is. As the manager your more likely to get put on the pip than they are.

100%

It's like Football - if the players go out and are shit, or don't try, or have been on a cocaine bender all week, then much cheaper to replace the manager than half the squad.

Some interesting thoughts.

It's worse than your DT-IT faculty AJ as they don't smile and nod, they argue and sabotage. I wish they'd just smile and nod.

I'm 41 and have been in the game for close to 2 decades, so it's less about age and experience and more about being an in-comer - one of them has been at the school for 16 years...

Have you planted the crack yet?

Have you planted the crack yet?

Interesting phrase, what do you mean by it?

I took it to mean..... Set up your colleagues for gettingsacked by being found with illegal drugs.

Have you planted the crack yet?

I seldom comment on teaching threads, there are many others who will.

Over the course of my teaching career I have learnt that it is often the staff who are the problem inasmuch as they have the ability to cause change but do not always use this.

Currently I am feeling wholly emasculated with a small number of Yr10 boys who have no interest in science unless they are chopping/ crushing/ burning/ making nasty smells that are different to the ones that they can make themselves. There are also others in the class who want to progress. I'm not going to get into a discussion about appropriate curricula etc. I am contractually bound to teach the syllabus.
Senior management know that there's a problem, one that exists in most other subject areas also. They have been aware for four years but are not putting in any useful strategies. They are reactive if enough noise/ paperwork is sent their way but will always require that individual class teachers put the individual pupil through the system first. This involves a series of escalating detentions, plus phone calls home.

I have the parents' numbers saved in my phone because I call frequently. Obviously the system doesn't seem to work in this case.

To my mind I should be having considerably more SLT input and support.

Returning to your position I would suggest that your colleagues are causing you difficulties and you should seek advice from your line manager and above. Whilst you have not been specific about the difficulties\ work generated I'm assuming that if they are creating a burden on you they are possibly being unprofessional. You say that they are well established in the school; they should be able to do their job more than competently by now. Are the issues trivial things that they need to deal with themselves or do you really need to become involved?

Different teams will have different dynamics but all should work towards the same end goal. Are you being undermined?

If SLT are aware of the issue what are they suggesting you do? I would seek advice here and keep a record.

Who sets annual targets for them?

I have relinquished pretty much all of my responsibilities nowadays and just concentrate on teaching science as best I can. Despite my opening paragraphs possibly indicating otherwise I am probably the happiest in my work ever. I am 61, part time, occasionally doing supply to help the school out if short staffed on my days off. I have also learnt that 1. it is a long and drawn out process to get rid of a teacher and that 2. many staff are grateful if I question the status quo. I have gained the confidence to do this because of point 1 and my foreseeable retirement. I try to not ruffle feathers but I will ask difficult questions, send demanding emails with line managers copied in if need be and I will speak to all to get their views. I sound like a right PITA but if I am to do my job well I expect and need others to do the same. There's no compromise here. It's public money being spent (in my case) and I am determined that it is used properly.

Oooh, I'm ranting!

Anyway

TLDR Request advice from SLT. Follow it and keep SLT informed. Any colleagues who generate unnecessary workload need dealing with.

Finally. Join a union if you have not done so yet. 💪🏼

and they are good teachers, just terrible colleagues.

So they do a good job in the classroom but don't like being pushed around. Sound like people I would get on with. And they've got rid of 4/5 humanities heads already. They're not just good teachers they've got the system sussed.

I walked out of a UK school and into a great alternative life, many of my colleagues who were good teachers did the same and contiue to do so. My sister, a really, really good teacher left UK teaching after a two-year legal battle with a unpleasant incompetant misogynistic (mis)manager. She's happy now.

Teaching unions are useless, lawyers a bit more expensive but worth it.

Just take the money and leave 'em be, OP, is my advice. They're good teachers as you say yourself.

The organisation of British schools is based on a totally unnecesaray hierachy. In France there's the head of the school and that's it, all teachers are equal and report direct to them. Tiers of management just create unnecessary infighting.

Kill them with kindness.

Be sarcastic

Totally ignore them and give them zero support

I can be one of those teachers who is reasonably good but a pita. After 20 years I've seen ideas and strategies come and go. Heads slt and pts say we're doing this starting tomorrow and it'll be great only for it to be dropped by next Tuesday because it was ill thought out. Imposing change gets push back.
As a faculty head I'm trying to get discussion before trying stuff. Yes there's moaning but I go with we have to do this so let's do it in a way that works for us otherwise it's slts way. Start with an outline, have a discussion about small changes. Try to drag them along by asking for input using their experience. It's one of those QA cycles of plan, check, tweak. But over 3 months.

This is the peak time to get a job at another school, rather than take a pay cut I'd just be hoping on to another location

If you take a pay cut they'll continue to annoy you (even more?) because they've cost you and your family serious money. Make it clear what you want them to do, monitor it and keep senior management informed then you've done your job.  I was head of humanities (English, history, geography, RE, sociology, general studies) and had a few difficult colleagues who tried to undermine everything but were good in the classroom. I did the above and just concentrated on the areas I could help improve. Stuck the job for 22 yrs and got out in my own time (at 58) when all the academy nonsense started up and this time it was me who wasn't going to be bossed about.

I’m thinking of seeing if I can cut the Geography department off, leave it to succeed of die and take a £5,500 pay cut.

Where do the kids- sorry, stakeholders, come into this if the geography department is excommunicated from the wider humanities?

Presumably you report to someone. Make it their problem, and it will be if they get the hint that they might lose their head of department to another school, although from what others say this won't be a unique problem and may require an adjustment to management style.

Have you thought about asking them what they think the problem is, and how they might fix it? If they can't offer a suggestion then explain that they need to implement your instructions instead of going behind your back to cause problems. And for your own benefit have a witness and minute it.

I had a situation years ago with someone who I managed as part of a team, not in teaching though. He was quite competent and did the work but was constantly complaining, moaning and generally doing all he could to destroy team morale. If he didn't say something negative about his own position then he told someone else something negative about their position.

Once an new graduate got £1,000 pay rise for completing the first phase of his induction - he was only on something like £12,000 as it was years ago. The graduate was really pleased until the moaner said "Yippee frikin do dah, they think you that all that training and work you do is worth £1.80 a day". The grad came backupset and angry that we didn't value him and it took a couple of weeks to turn that perception around.

It was this incident that made me take action. I asked the moaner to compile a list of everything that was wrong with work, not his job specifically but everything. I explained that I wanted to make the whole thing better for everyone. 1 week later I asked him again for the list and he hadn't managed to produce it. Another week and he eventually gave me a list which we went through together. It turns out that when he had to write stuff down it looked a bit silly or unreasonable. Everyone should get paid more that the CEO who should be sacked was the starting item and very quickly descended to better coffee and nicer toilet roll. There were a couple of valid points which I addressed over the following month.

For the next month, every time he started to moan I stopped him and told him to add it to the list. The list didn't grow much as his moaning was mostly pointless and by the 2nd month he had pretty much stopped moaning about everything to everyone and the team was happier. It seems that making him have to think about what he was moaning about actually helped him be happier.

I'm a terrible people manager. But if you got rid of the moaners, could you just end up with two 23 year olds who don't even know what they're doing AND moan about how their feelings haven't been given enough space and how they didn't come into work because the vibes were off? </stereotyping>

What I'm taking from Edukator's post is that you'll never change the character of quarrelsome know-it-alls, but you can encourage them to follow their dreams overseas... 😆

Welcome to management.

"What I’m taking from Edukator’s post is that you’ll never change the character of quarrelsome know-it-alls, but you can encourage them to follow their dreams overseas… 😆"

a short lecture about sex and travel?

@worldclassaccident good story, really helpful

Teacher hear

I think I know the situation you describe. But can you give a few examples of what they are doing wrong? I can see that you might want to be vague but a hint would help

Have you sat down with your line manager and thrashed this out. Can you agree with school leadership that they will say support you moving to a written warning? Or is their behavioural just annoying but they do what they are asked to do? What do your managers think? Whose side are they on?

Quote

Guaranteed you won’t loose the agro by virtue you are still around. Demotion never works out as through you remove responsibilities in practice, it’s a bit like going from 5 to 4 days, with a pay cut, you still work 5! Quote

This leads me to pause for reflection

I dropped to 4 days a week starting in September. Your comment is literally true. But i think on balance the drop in hours has worked. I’m in a large college and part of the professional development team. On my day off yesterday I worked from I think 9:30 until 2:30 and was out bike by 3:00. Mainly interesting stuff for the CPD team. Today will be the first Saturday worked since September. 38 practical books to look at 😟. But I still think the drop in hours has worked. Partly because the management let me keep all my remission and money for the CPD job. The bit that currently grates is running physics as that is almost voluntary work

Sorry final thought to the OP

If you resign the responsibilities would it save you time as well a stress. If it saves time you might be able to earn that £300 back doing private tuition.

If you get rid of all the moaners you'll never know what is (potentially) wrong in your department. Moaners are annoying , but in some ways they are necessary.

Write everything down. Keep a record of everything they do that "generates 80% of grief". Save a copy of any emails, minute all meetings and email them to the moaners, keep a diary of anything that connects to this issue. If it's as bad as you say you will soon have enough evidence to do something about this

... on the other hand you might end up like the moaner from WCA's post - once you have to actually write down what they are doing wrong it might turn out to not that much.

Some folk just aren't cut out for a management role.

You can buy a lot of smarties for that pay difference.

and they are good teachers, just terrible colleagues.

If the end product is good - the actual teaching bit - then you need to find a way to deal with the terrible colleague bit. They’re probably pushing away from new directives as they can see it’s not good for the kids.

The underlying problem is that faculties are a poor structure, invented solely for cost cutting.

Really appreciate the responses.

Their complaints are mostly about change. I'm quite light touch on most things, so it isn't about excess accountability.

Context:

Basically, our curriculum in Geography hasn't been fit for purpose:

Year 9 has been all human geography which makes it poor preparation for GCSE.

There are a lot of 'fun' topics that aren't national curriculum, or contributing to skills.

It's edutainment and the Ofsted report and SLT said that they wanted to improve challenge.

The school used to be pretty crap and is rapidly improving, but those changes haven't reached my subjects yet.

I've actually ripped out and replaced a lot more in History, but the staff are more open to dialogue and change.

I've only touched Year 8 and 9 in Geo, and got one of my high performers to redevelop Year 7.

My two refuseniks agreed to work on 8 and 9 with me, but then made excuses instead of doing the work. Then I picked up the slack and they threw their toys out of the pram every week since Xmas, because I did what I said I would do.

I'm going to meet with my Boss on Monday.

I've got two thoughts:

If my boss will back me, we can get each of them in one after the other and double team them. Tell em to knuckle down. Maybe a bit like the moaning list. Let them talk and talk and talk - give them enough rope.

Idea #2. If I don't get backing, or it's equivocal I'm going to keep the money, but switch to process and accountability only in History and put the onus on curriculum on them:

Next faculty meeting, ask them who wants to be KS3 and who KS4 - groups - then give them 90 minutes to work out a plan which I'll endorse, then say I'll come back 15 minutes before the end.

This could result in 3 outcomes:

1. They'll argue, remember that they hated each other long before I came along and they'll realise they've got to cave.

2. They'll come up with a good plan, that works and I'll be happy, SLT will be happy and they will be happy.

3. They'll come up with a plan that is unworkable, or that they fail to make work, but I have 6 months of reduced aggro and they get covered in their own shit.

Obviously as seasoned bullshit artists, they might sense a trap and refuse to walk into it, but the idea appeals.

I've decided I'm going to keep taking the money either way, but check out on caring.

Idea #2. If I don’t get backing, or it’s equivocal I’m going to keep the money, but switch to process and accountability only in History and put the onus on curriculum on them:

This will give them even more ammunition. "He's getting paid to manage us but he does f-all"

Teacher hear

PE right? 😉

Not a teacher here, but both my parents were and my Dad was a HoD.

I've managed people in the past too (engineering), including serial complainers/underminers like those the OP described. And I'll admit to being a bit conflict averse.

IME you'll never fully adjust their attitudes but what I did find sort of worked was to try and turn their complaints into actions for them. Turn around the issues they are highlighting and ask them if they were empowered to do so, how would they tackle it? They either propose something and you bump their morale by giving them a taste of power and influence, or they never follow up and learn to stop griping as you'll just make it their problem to tackle (which isn't generally what they want).

I've also had to be robust (which doesn't come naturally) and tell people to "drop it for now" as we're in a team brief, I've heard their input, we're not going to solve it then and there and other members of the team have as much right to speak and raise issues, that has actually worked in the past.

Question OP, do your schools senior staff ever sit in on team meetings? It might be worth getting them to, just say they're there to hear about any concerns directly, and just see how it affects the whingers behaviour (or not). It should be part of the SLTs role to help you as a HoD and where possible witness and challenge poor behaviours.

Many of the best managers I've ever dealt with have been ex-forces, direct, clear focus, they do take on-board any issues raised and tend to do what I described above and give those issues back to the person that highlighted them to tackle, along witb some positive reinforcement of course.

You certainly shouldn't be put in a position where you are perfectly capable of doing a job but mulling over taking a pay cut because of a couple of entrenched difficult staff members.

OFSTED/League Tables/Rating again!…

Not a go at you ajt123 as I know you have to work in the system you’re given. But it’s all about the school again - the edutainment/fun could inspire the kids to take geography (or another associated subject) further but no, whack that free spirit fun shit out of them. GCSEs are a stepping stone not an end result.

Just my rant at the system as parent of a child who didn’t fit the system.

Teacher here (ex-Hod, currently HoY). 25+ years in so far...

For me, there's a lot of overthinking in this thread.

They're good teachers, so that's the hard part of managing them already sorted.

If change is needed in terms of school improvement, then they need to support that or understand that by not doing so they open themselves up to due process no matter how good they are in the classroom.

Bottom line. If for example the Y8 and 9 curriculum needs rewriting, they're the specialists, not you. It's in your remit to direct them to do it if they won't respond to merely being asked. If they are genuinely good teachers, they'll understand this is to the benefit of the kids and do it. As long as you support this by finding time for them to put into it then they really can't complain as it's in their job description and the teaching standards. If they're UPS as I guess they are then even less reason for them to kick back against this kind of project.

If they moan all the time already, then being directed to do something won't necessarily create a worse situation. If they refuse, stall or do a half arsed job then your school will have (admittedly unpleasant) processes in place to deal with that...

(all this obviously written without knowing the nuances of your school or those personalities)

OFSTED/League Tables/Rating again!…

Not a go at you ajt123 as I know you have to work in the system you’re given. But it’s all about the school again – the edutainment/fun could inspire the kids to take geography (or another associated subject) further but no, whack that free spirit fun shit out of them. GCSEs are a stepping stone not an end result.

Just my rant at the system as parent of a child who didn’t fit the system.

I hear you Muffin man. I think the mainstream secondary school model doesn't work.

We should do years 7 to 10 as a kind of junior high and years 11-13 as a Lycee / College / Senior High like they do in a lot of the European countries.

Also, we need a national system of schools for the massive number of kids with emotional and behavioural disorders and chronic mental illness, that our collapsing society is generating.

But I digress, suffice to say there are teachers who would rather be youth workers, instead of educators = 'You pretend to teach us, we pretend to learn'.

I can be one of those teachers who is reasonably good but a pita. After 20 years I’ve seen ideas and strategies come and go. Heads slt and pts say we’re doing this starting tomorrow and it’ll be great only for it to be dropped by next Tuesday because it was ill thought out. Imposing change gets push back.

I am likely the biggest Pita going. Thankfully I'm about to reduce my hours down to 2 days per week, as it gets harder and harder to with the mismanagement. From the little detail above, I expect I'd side with the difficult colleagues 😀.

If they aren't keen on coming up with a plan to meet national curriculum or examination board requirements just buy a couple of packs of gcse revision cards for them as a plan.

If you know where they live there's always frozen sausages and a mallet?