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Well, after a very unsatisfactory answer to my censorship question, and it becoming apparent that rather than allow us to discuss the ongoing genocide in Gaza the powers that be would rather silence all debate, I'm off.
It's a shame, I love this place, but I can't add my name or my money to an organisation (there's a magazine?) that allows atrocities to take place while imposing a gag on those who might question them.
I wonder who took this decision? The staff all seem like pretty cool people. Anyway, I'm rambling, good bye.
Alex Palace Fan 🙁
Not that this thread will last, but the idea of STW 'allowing atrocities to take place' has to go into the hall of fame!
Bloody hell mate, what makes you think a MTB forum is critical to the discourse on Gaza.
Have some empathy for the mods and staff eh.
Bye bye! Take your ball with you.
Name checks out.
The behaviour of forum posters forced this decision.
This.
Yes the censorship is a little strange but I hardly think the forum is “allowing “ the atrocities.
I dunno, the answer seemed pretty clear to me:
MOD – The threads always descend in to argument, then rule breaking, normally personal insults and racism, and when we try to moderate per the rules, we get abuse, and accusations of us of being on the ‘other’ side. We’ve tried to give you all a chance at being grown ups, but you’ve exhausted our patience and blown it. This has been explained numerous times now.
IIRC it was clear right from the start that the discussion itself was fine depending on how people behaved. After umpty-seven warnings the ban came into effect.
If you interpret that simple thing as "allows atrocities to take place while imposing a gag on those who might question them" then it just goes to show much of a bad idea it would be to let us discuss in more detail 😂
TL;DR: "shut up and stop arguing" != "we support genocide" 🙄
I can see the frustration, as pointed out the last thread was civil and plenty more rumble on with spats throughout. In fact the last thread was started to discuss the AI aspect which was what was broadly being discussed. The forbidden subject wasn't even hinted at until a mod (okay, let's be honest, it was Drac as he's the only one that actually has the guts to admit his position) started poking for info.
Their ball their rules but I'm also uncomfortable with the fact that it's this subject and only this subject being censored.
The secret police thing annoys me too because of the complete lack of transparency but that's another subject for another day. Again, their ball their rules. You either accept that or go. I don't think it's unreasonable to explain why though, how else are you going to get open and transparent feedback.
an organisation (there’s a magazine?) that allows atrocities to take place
Allows? Is there there some kind of hotline from Netanyahu to Todmorden we don't know about? FFS!
to an organisation (there’s a magazine?) that allows atrocities to take place while imposing a gag on those who might question them.
It is silly statements like this that cause a lot of the issues.
I thought Drac was the only member/mod now and they'd stopped with the secret mods, all other mods were staff or some third party company? Am I mixing this place up with somewhere else?
* looks around suspiciously*
[s]Netanyahu[/s] Netan-Yee-Haa
Join the debate on Pistonheads - the land of Clarksons. (Should be a Big Train sketch)
Bloody hell mate, what makes you think a MTB forum is critical to the discourse on Gaza.
Didn't you know world leaders and egotistical dictators all check in on STW before firing off rockets? Sadam used to often see if there was any middle aged rage to his plans to blow stuff up and just the other week Vlad popped in to see if we minded if he advanced a bit further. The language barrier does make some of the threads from Somali pirates a bit tricky to understand but we muddle through, not as bad as that poor nigerian prince who keeps asking for help in the classifieds.
The secret police thing annoys me too because of the complete lack of transparency
I think many mods have left/stopped becasue of the levels of abuse that comes their way. I can understand why some of them go incognito
Well, after a very unsatisfactory answer to my censorship question, and it becoming apparent that rather than allow us to discuss the ongoing genocide in Gaza the powers that be would rather silence all debate, I’m off.
It’s a shame, I love this place, but I can’t add my name or my money to an organisation (there’s a magazine?) that allows atrocities to take place while imposing a gag on those who might question them.
I wonder who took this decision? The staff all seem like pretty cool people. Anyway, I’m rambling, good bye.
Bless.
it's an emotive subject you'd expect it to get heated 😕
Have you thought about just going on Twitter/X instead?
I believe they do that kind of thing there
Maybe the sixth form common room?
I don't know why some people (and its achingly predictable which ones) seem absolutely intent on discussing it on here. Other than the obvious answer... for an orgy of competitive virtue signalling to each other.
The language being used is also absolutely preposterous.
Endorsing atrocities?
Get over yourselves FFS!
Asking people not to discuss an emotive subject, is not unreasonable. To claim that doing so is "allowed attrocities to take place" is unreasonable and perhaps somewhat justifies their claim that this is not the place to discuss this subject.
MOD – The threads always descend in to argument, then rule breaking, normally personal insults and racism, and when we try to moderate per the rules, we get abuse, and accusations of us of being on the ‘other’ side. We’ve tried to give you all a chance at being grown ups, but you’ve exhausted our patience and blown it. This has been explained numerous times now.
I used to moderate a different forum. One or two people used to occasionally take the piss with what was permitted. When I closed their threads they got abusive towards me - this was people I knew in real life. I can totally understand volunteer mods not needing that shit in their lives.
I'm not sure how having a thread closed on a mountain biking forum amounts to censorship?
To be honest this whole thread is a classic example of why we should walk away from our computers rather than posting stuff whilst we're still angry about it.
Being a Palace fan is never easy
Some pretty poor comments due to an incorrect use of language, rather childish replies which pretty much sums up what this forum is becoming.
The anon mod policy is mine. When we bring in a new mod I give them the option of being anon or not. However I always strongly recommend that they remain anonymous as they will attract personal abuse. It has happened in the past that a mod has been abused in the outside world as a result of them being nothing more than a volunteer with the best interests of the whole community as their principle motivation.
As for the censorship issue... I'll be starting a thread on that shortly with a way forward.
Asking people not to discuss an emotive subject, is not unreasonable.
Palestine-Israel has not suddenly become an emotive issue in the last few months. It has been discussed on STW for years without the slightest problem.
The only thing which appears to have changed recently on STW is apparently less support for Israel. Which suggests greater consensus.
Agreed. It's the same dozen people who have far too much time on their hands . Who are never wrong , even when they're wrong. Who refuse to back down from an argument and escalate with petty playground behaviour worthy of an angry 9 year old.
It's as if arguing with strangers on an internet forum will actually change someone's perspective ( doubtful) or the event that they are arguing about ( impossible) yet still on and on and on they go. It's a tidal wave of cut and paste selected quotes with no winners, little rational thought, and very difficult to back your veiwpoint by posting hot links that are invariably Hidden behind sign ups and pay walls that few people have hours of their ever decreasing spare time to digest
It has been discussed on STW for years without the slightest problem.
As far as I can recall, the only Israel Palestine thread that hasn't been locked due to big hitter escalation was the allotment one.
The only thing which appears to have changed recently on STW is apparently less support for Israel. Which suggests greater consensus.
There was a concept, a British invention , developed for the north of Ireland, the acceptable level of violence. Provided things didn’t get too atrocious the government figured most people, not in Ireland or being killed had other things to worry about / occupy their minds so things could carry on.
I would suggest the Israeli government has been banking on this for years but have now i) inflicted too much violence ii) the internet age has transformed access to instant news and this is a change which has led to more scrutiny and less support for Israel from a wider range of people and it has become a more emotive issue for some. YMMV
As far as I can recall, the only Israel Palestine thread that hasn’t been locked due to big hitter escalation was the allotment one.
You must be on a different forum to me. I don't recall the Israeli-Palestine debate ever been shut down previously.
Edit: The allotment thread was a very clever ruse by MrNutt to get some people to take a moral stand which they otherwise would not have taken. It was genius.
Palestine-Israel has not suddenly become an emotive issue in the last few months. It has been discussed on STW for years without the slightest problem.
I would respecitvely suggest that it has become a lot more of an emotive issue recently, which you may not realise if you say...
The only thing which appears to have changed recently on STW is apparently less support for Israel.
..as it suggests you are not following any news and happily riding your bike in the hills all day every day.
My point is also that I believe it's unreasonable to say that any such policy is "allowing attrocities to take place".
It has been discussed on STW for years without the slightest problem.
That's not my recollection. Loads of previous threads have been closed. Selective memory?
Most people just walk away.
an organisation (there’s a magazine?) that allows atrocities to take place while imposing a gag on those who might question them
But this, well this made me laugh out loud. An internet forum is not allowing activities to take place by any stretch of the imagination. Shutting down a conversation because of multiple forum rule breaches is not imposing a gag either.
But you do you, I am quite sure you won't be missed if you draw these sorts of conclusions from what is standard internet forum moderating 101.
the powers that be would rather silence all debate
FFS, the mods have made it very clear why Israel threads are closed, they always descend into name calling and abuse. There's plenty of debate about other controversial topics, it's just that particular topic does not generate any productive debate. This is a mountain biking forum on a privately owned website. They can ban any topic or any posters they feel like. I've had a few short bans over the years but, given what the mods have to put up with, my sympathy is with them.
Thanks Ernie for demonstrating why we decided on a blanket ban.
As Mark has hinted, we’ve discussed the subject further and there will be a dedicated thread.
FFS, the mods have made it very clear why Israel threads are closed, they always descend into name calling and abuse.
To be fair thois2 I recall you as one of the persons who derailed the original thread with repeated allegations of anti-semitism.
For the record I am not hugely bothered by the banning of the topic on STW, certainly not as much as some.
I know that the need to make accusations of anti-semitism and to shut down the debate is an obvious sign of desperation by supporters of the appalling Israeli government. They are losing the argument everywhere and right across the world.
Whether it is discussed on STW or not is obviously totally inconsequential.
Get a grip of yourself man! The attitude you have is part of the problem - don't like what you hear so you run away.
He doesn't give up, does he?
I can only assume you are back now there’s a thread allowed. And that a permanent ceasefire will be in place by the end of the day.
The anon mod policy is mine. When we bring in a new mod I give them the option of being anon or not. However I always strongly recommend that they remain anonymous as they will attract personal abuse. It has happened in the past that a mod has been abused in the outside world as a result of them being nothing more than a volunteer with the best interests of the whole community as their principle motivation.
As for the censorship issue… I’ll be starting a thread on that shortly with a way forward.
I'd say there's an easy, if unpopular, answer to both. At least if I was in charge.
Bans. Proper ones.
I know I'm hardly the paragon of virtue on here but there is so much that slides that people end up getting frustrated, more people step out of line and it becomes a vicious circle until a topic gets locked or someone gets a temp ban.
The issue I have with anonymous mods is there's no transparency and therefore no trust in the process. How do you know who's a mod or a mate of a mod that will get more leeway than a loudmouth like me? If you want people to buy into a system it has to be seen to apply equally and fairly, there are more than a few examples in my own past where I feel that's fallen short. There are people on here who do nothing but troll and cause havoc yet inexplicably still have posting privileges despite being reported multiple times.
As for confronting mods in real life that's just an instant ban and shaming at the very least. That's in no way acceptable.
The only problem with all that is it also hinges on people acting like adults which, as w00dster pointed out, is pretty unlikely.
How is it so hard to discuss these things civilly without automatically resorting to playground insults? You're grown men ffs, act like it.
Didn’t you know world leaders and egotistical dictators all check in on STW before
It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to find out Sunak was one of the regulars in the pension and investments threads.
Question is, were they world leaders & dictators before, or because of, STW membership?
Makes you think.
The issue I have with anonymous mods is there’s no transparency and therefore no trust in the process. How do you know who’s a mod or a mate of a mod that will get more leeway
I have trust in the process because I think Mark and the team seem reasonable and fair, I suspect that extends to their judgement of character when selecting mods. Anyone Mark picks as a moderator is likely to have shown themselves to be even tempered and moderate and be an all round 'good egg'. The very thought that being 'out' as a mod could earn you accusations of favouritism (probably unfounded) on top of other abuse, just reinforces the need for them to remain anonymous IMO. The moderation on this forum is IMO of a pretty high standard. I should imagine you need a skin like a rhinoceros and the patience of a saint to be a declared mod*. I'd rather eat my own feet than do that voluntarily.
*Or in Drac's case, the patience of a rhinoceros....😜
Bans. Proper ones.
We'd need a thread naming and shaming those who have been banned and why - or we may just think they have flounced! 🙂
I think it's clear as daylight that "Binners" and "Scotroutes" are undercover Israeli Moderators.... to think otherwise is just naive. I also suspect "Cougar" of election interference in the recent Russian elections...
There are people on here who do nothing but troll and cause havoc yet inexplicably still have posting privileges despite being reported multiple times.
As fellow paragon of virtue on here, another part of this issue is that when someone posts something really offensive it gets deleted but the poster is allowed to continue posting on the same thread (normally using more 'reasonable' language but still expressing the same views as their offensive post).
This leads to a weird dynamic where some people are extremely angry at a particular person but it's not apparent why and it seems like they are just angry because they disagree.
It also creates anger when other people jump in to agree with or defend the offending person because you aren't really sure if they have only seen the reasonable posts or if they are also agreeing with the offensive posts.
Not sure what the answer is but I think if people are going to be allowed to continue participating in a conversation then everything they have said should be visible.
I don't like it but I can live with the idea of anonymous mods - I do get vexed when threads are closed with no reason given. If someone's being a moron, hit 'em with the ban hammer, don't just end the debate. Other than that, I think this place is pretty well-modded.
I have no idea what any of this is referring to so have no dog in the race, but,
Their ball their rules but I’m also uncomfortable with the fact that it’s this subject and only this subject being censored.
Well, that's clearly not true. And frankly is unfair IMHO.
I was a moderator here for a decade. In that time we censored precisely nothing. Sure, accusations flew like pigeons in Trafalgar Square, nary a day would go by where some twit would pipe up about what they weren't allowed to say because of some imaginary STW Thought Police or who knows what. It's utter nonsense. Rather, actions have consequences. If you don't want to be treated like a **** then stop being a ****.
The uncomfortable truth is that the volunteer moderation team just want an easy life and if someone is going to go out of their way to be a pain in the bollocks then either a thread closure, a ban or both is just a matter of time. It's bog all to do with content, it's down to conduct, and the more persistent they are then the more likely that they'll leave the moderators little option.
"The issue I have with anonymous mods is there’s no transparency and therefore no trust in the process. How do you know who’s a mod or a mate of a mod that will get more leeway than a loudmouth like me?"
Even if you're a mate with a mod (or mods) you still get a slap if you step out of line (and quite rightly)
Ask me how I know 😅
Does anybody really believe that is the job of STW to host contentious discussions? There are plenty of forums where politics (or whatever) are discussed.
Hard to remember sometimes that this is a site where middle-aged men who used to cycle can discuss bikes. Other stuff is allowed, and is often great (see the current ‘definitive recommendations’ thread)*, but there is no reason that STW HAS to have threads about contentious subjects, and if it’s causing grief then they are right to get rid of them.
alexpalacefan: instead of flouncing why don’t you -
A) continue bike and Skoda Octavia discussions here, but find somewhere else to discuss Israel, and
B) find a decent football team to support
Personally I’m more upset that the Hebden Bridge Trouser Company thread has closed. That was a source of constant fascination for me.
* actually I cannot find that thread at the moment. Did it get out of hand and lead to multiple bans and eventual closure.
The secret police thing annoys me too because of the complete lack of transparency but that’s another subject for another day.
And why do you suppose that might be?
I think many mods have left/stopped becasue of the levels of abuse that comes their way.
Well, I know for certain that at least one did.
The issue I have with anonymous mods is there’s no transparency and therefore no trust in the process. How do you know who’s a mod or a mate of a mod that will get more leeway than a loudmouth like me?
You don't, of course. The thing is though, you shouldn't need to. If I were you and I genuinely believed that it was all a matey boys club at the top, I'd find a different social circle to go throw rocks in.
I've said this before but as Mark alluded to earlier, when I accepted the moderator role it was very strongly recommended that I remained anonymous. I refused broadly for reasons you've just described, I wanted to bridge the gap between site owners and site visitors, to bring some transparency to what's going on, and I realised that I couldn't do that and remain anonymous.
For better or for worse, I made it a condition of my acceptance that I wasn't going to do that. It's blown up in my face a few times, baseless nonsense accusations around "I can't argue with you because you'll ban me" and variations thereof were commonplace. Whilst I've not broadcast my real name on STW I'm not particularly difficult to track down and I've had STW users harass me on Facebook after being banned. But ultimately this is a community and one that, even after stepping down as moderator to preserve my own sanity, I'm fiercely protective of.
... Which is why I can't sit here and watch someone ****ing on about what they can't do and how oppressed they are. If there is a topic which has suddenly been declared verboten then it's an extraordinary situation and one of your own making, you can only close so many threads before it becomes more hassle than it's worth. If we can't play nicely then we shouldn't be shocked when we can't have nice things.
Even if you’re a mate with a mod (or mods) you still get a slap if you step out of line (and quite rightly)
Ask me how I know 😅
Honestly, I used to welcome it. The last thing I wanted was preferential treatment, rather my Aspie brain has something of a wonky filter and I relied on the rest of the team / Mark to tell me when to rein it in.
Never understood having a go at mods. They do a thankless task for free in their own time. I’ve never been banned but had a few warnings. Never had an issue with that or the people dishing them out. Quite childish and a bit pathetic to take umbrage when it is you being the dickhead.
Hopefully the dedicated thread can remain calm and civil. I wonder if a bookies will give me odds on the most likely contributors to kill it.
Sorry. Just testing something
Whilst I’ve not broadcast my real name on STW I’m not particularly difficult to track down and I’ve had STW users harass me on Facebook after being banned.
That is absolutely pathetic.
If this is the level of psychosis that we're talking about, they're better off banned - for their own wellbeing.
I imagine this site is generally pretty mild and easy to manage compared to some spots on the internet, but kudos to the mods anyway - whoever they may be.
So long Alex.
(I'm also a fan - Versailles being my fave)
The issue I have with anonymous mods is there’s no transparency and therefore no trust in the process. How do you know who’s a mod or a mate of a mod that will get more leeway than a loudmouth like me?
I have had posts deleted and a few warnings over the years, some of which I didn't understand, but it's only a biking forum, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
I absolutely support anonymous mods though - Rule #1 applies, it doesn't matter who or where you are shooting your mouth off, there are ways of doing it acceptably. I've been "taken aside" in real life for things I've posted on here when I've been a dick, volunteer mods must have it loads worse.
Bit surprised by the OP reaction and comments, hope he reconsiders and unflounces soon
We’d need a thread naming and shaming those who have been banned and why
Let's establish Struggle Sessions where the class enemies are confronted with the victims of the heresies and punished until they recant.
Am I breaking Rule #1 by suggesting that the header and is a bit ironic?
I've never understood why folk feel the need to tell us they're leaving. Just stop posting ffs.
Never understood having a go at mods.
I think for some it's a case of,
The best thing about Alex taking a break is that I will no longer read his name as "Alexfacepalm"
binners
Full Member
*Files the ‘Gaza’ thread in the don’t go in there’ catagory alongside the Keir Starmer thread*
Have to agree, Ive made one post and that'll be it for the foreseeable. The war and the thread are going to head in predictable directions over time.
I'm keeping to the relative safely off the political threads.
Not something I ever thought I'd say. 😉
Joking aside, the thread could act as a necessary safety valve but it'll be a shame to see any posters getting a permanent ban as you lot are actually ok in my book. Genuinely, there's no one on here (other that a*very* infrequent and obvious troll) that I even vaguely dislike.
Most of the years long arguments that we see play out on some threads are actually between posters that agree on 90% of the topic discussed but focus on the 10%. It's something I'm guilty of too.
Most of the years long arguments that we see play out on some threads are actually between posters that agree on 90% of the topic discussed but focus on the 10%. It’s something I’m guilty of too.
I think this is the core problem. Instead of looking to find areas of agreement and then how to negotiate around the disagreement, threads turn into bickering over minor disagreements based on purity tests. I think George W. Bush was a disastrous president, but I think he was a deluded fool, not the anti-Christ. Unfortunately, that doesn't pass purity tests and apparently I'm a Tory voting Tory that votes for Tories because I fail ideological purity tests.
Yep and apparently being a centrist is akin to being the baby eating bishop of Bath and Wells end of so anything you say is inadmissible. All a bit pathetic really. The irony being I've probably moved leftward in my political views due to the more empathetic posters on here.
The irony being I’ve probably moved leftward in my political views due to the more empathetic posters on here
I was brought a Tory in the 80s and it has taken some real life exposure to those who suffer as a result of those policies for me to see the light, and a lot of the left wing posters on here have deepened my beliefs and values over the years.
It's not just on here, but we all so keen to argue bitterly over that 10% rather than celebrate the 90% that unites us.
The best thing about Alex taking a break is that I will no longer read his name as “Alexfacepalm”
Whereas I always imagined it to be an instruction to the Echo Dot controlled air con at Kensington.
I was brought a Tory in the 80s
So many questions. Was s/he willing, was a ransom requested, were they eventually rehomed with a loving family that didn't mind the noise and poop on the carpet?
Remember, a Tory is for life not just for Christmas.😉
will no longer read his name as “Alexfacepalm”
And I'll never be able to ask which was the favourite stately home.
I think credit is due to alexpalacefan for not only sticking to his principles but doing so so publicly.
Personally, I stick to the politics threads to avoid wanting to commit genocides when the e-bike ********* keep trying to invent new names for bicycles in the bike threads.
Personally, I stick to the politics threads to avoid wanting to commit genocides when the e-bike ********* keep trying to invent new names for bicycles in the bike threads.
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It's with a lot of regret that I haven't been on the bike forum in an age due to "reasons".
That said, id imagined it to be a two wheeled utopia of harmony and tree hugging. I'm sure that's how I remember it anyway! 😁
Interesting take. That situation is ****ing horrific but having a realistic sense of what I can and cannot influence I can't understand this position. What am I missing?
relapsed_mandalorian
Full Member
Interesting take. That situation is **** horrific but having a realistic sense of what I can and cannot influence I can’t understand this position. What am I missing?
Just for clarity, who are your replying to RM? I'm not being argumentative, I genuinely don't know if I've posted something controversial without knowing it!😁
Just for clarity, who are your replying to RM? I’m not being argumentative, I genuinely don’t know if I’ve posted something controversial without knowing it!😁
The OP. The flounce. Anyone that might be able to point out what I'm missing?!
I missed out the quote, so understand the confusion.
The OP. The flounce. Anyone that might be able to point out what I’m missing?!
Ah, sorry, I should have assumed as much.
I won't pretend to know all the nuances of the thread. I hope it's a temporary flounce though, I dont like seeing any member feeling they have to leave the forum for negative reasons. It saddened me more than it should for some reason.
I'm hoping to see tpbiker return at some point.