[Closed] Syrian or Russian ?

Take cover, incoming

One of the airforces needs to confirm it as both are using the SU-24.

I was secretly hoping this was about hamsters 🙁

I was secretly hoping this was about hamsters

+1

This could unravel it it is Russian....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34907983?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

Russian apparently

Not going to go down well (no pun intended) with Vlad.

Uh-oh.

Meh, in a conventional conflict the Turks would shit all over the Russians - so I'm not worried. Rather amused that a Nato country has got the balls to shoot a Russian plane down tbh.

I suspect there will be some low level verbal handbags, but will then be brushed under the carpet.

Of course, the daily wail website will go into meltdown. Hopefully

There was a certain inevitability to this, really, They've had enough warnings about what would happen if they continued to overfly other peoples territory.

The difference is that when they do it to us, we send a plane up to firmly, but politely request that they bugger off. The Turks are bordering a war zone, which I would think would lead to considerably more sensitive trigger fingers when it comes to unknown aircraft violating your airspace

Aren't the Turks sympathetic to the anti-Assad forces? 90%-ish of Turkey are Sunni and the political party in power are Sunni (IIRC). It's in their interest to shoot down the Russians and Syrians.. Plus the airstrikes are supporting the Peshmerga offensive against ISIS, and we all know how much Turks love them..

The Turks shoot down fellow [url= http://www.todayszaman.com/national_number-of-dogfights-between-greece-turkey-hits-record-low_252173.html ]NATO members planes[/url], they are a tad sensitive to all this 'fly over' stuff.

What will Dave do now will his warplane bombing dreams not get off the ground or are we going to make the airspace above turkey look like Heathrow at Easter holidays

wont lead to WW3 but there will be some unhappy people in Russia today

I suspect they will be careful about not straying into Turkey now

I reckon the russian jet will have had a dashcam to prove it wasnt in turkey airsapce

What will Dave do now will his warplane bombing dreams not get off the ground

You what? The USAF are already flying out of Turkey, with possibly a RAF presence also.

Shirley someone radio'd the plane first with "oi, fat head, bugger off out of here or we'll encourage you to bugger off"

That kinda thing.

If they ignored it, serves themselves right.

Hopefully not an Arch-Duke Ferdinand type event...

Tom_W1987 - Member

Meh, in a conventional conflict the Turks would shit all over the Russians - so I'm not worried.

That I would disagree.

Rather amused that a Nato country has got the balls to shoot a Russian plane down tbh.

Turkey is the the Nato rouge.

Turkey will / should never be allowed to join EU. Fact!

epicyclo - Member

Hopefully not an Arch-Duke Ferdinand type event...

It will happen not a matter of if but when ...

They are about to run out of money for fuel and bombs. Half their air force is falling apart, the other half is comprised of 90 percent 1980s garbage.

Turkey on the other hand has relatively modern F-16s, that are in good condition and have high mission availability. A well networked air defense system and well trained pilots who get a decent amount of flying time each year.

The same can't be said for Russia. The Russians are not going to kick off.

Reports of a Russian chopper now shot down too..

Hopefully not an Arch-Duke Ferdinand type event...

It will happen not a matter of if but when ...

Fun-fact. At the time this barely registered in the news. It's only long after the event that it it was interpreted as a simple cause & effect relationship with the start of the war. It may have contributed to increased tension but it wasn't the touchpaper that it's since been taught as in schools.

The Torygraph the day after, it's on page 13.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ww1-archive/10926353/Daily-Telegraph-June-29-1914.html

I really hate to say this, but some of the things that Putin has been reported as saying in response to this event are ringing very true; accusing Turkey of profiteering, buying ISIS's oil, secretly siding with terror etc, all fall into line with some other articles about Turkeys complicity regarding the Syria situation. Interesting that the jet crashed 4km into Syria; that's not a huge margin of error but means that it was a close call for Turkey.

On the other hand, it's not like Putin has a good record for honesty when it comes to shot down aircraft.

Dick state on dick state action, it seems.

Tom_W1987 - Member
They are about to run out of money for fuel and bombs. Half their air force is falling apart, the other half is comprised of 90 percent 1980s garbage.

Yes, that might be the case but that does not stop them fighting ... If they West engage them then be prepared for casualties. Can you stomach that?

Turkey on the other hand has relatively modern F-16s, that are in good condition and have high mission availability. A well networked air defense system and well trained pilots who get a decent amount of flying time each year.

Ya, but they are flown by Turkish ...

The same can't be said for Russia. The Russians are not going to kick off.

They might not kick off for the moment but Turkey is definitely on their radar now ... especially they are ethnically linked to some of the central Asia people.

Monstrous hypocrisy by Turkey, of course, who violate Greek airspace on a daily basis.

[IMG] [/IMG]
Do you see that tiny little area on the map where the red line, denoting the Russian fighter jet, very briefly crosses into southern Turkey (marked by turquoise borders)? That's the extent of airspace violation that prompted a NATO member state to shoot down a Russian SU-24.

Monstrous hypocrisy by Turkey, of course, who violate Greeks [s]airspace[/s] on a daily basis.

😉

Russian would not be sending SU-24 if they have the intention to fight Turkey ...

Two nations looking after their own self interests, the Russians propping up Assad and wanting to hang on to their Mediterranean base with the Turks looking after their fellow Turkman in he area and also ignoring Syria's airspace when chasing the Kurds.

National self interest, who would have thought...the only problem being Turkeys NATO membership possibly dragging us all in to this and ISIS nearby.

Monstrous hypocrisy by Turkey, of course, who violate Greek airspace on a daily basis.

Hardly the same, there isn't a war between Turkey and Greece currently, whereas the Russian's were warned about violating Turkish airspace during attacks on Syria back in October.

That's not going to end well.

I think we're supposed to lie down and put a paper bag over our head or something.

Drink up. The world's about to end.

I think it's the beginning of more free space being available to the nature ... less human is a good thing.

I just paid off my water bill and now the world is going to end!

Ya, but they are flown by Turkish ...

Alrite, let's keep the discussion away from outright racism.

You've read chewkw posts before right?

The loss today is a stab in the back, carried out by the accomplices of terrorists. I can’t describe it in any other way.

You've read chewkw posts before right?

To be fair, the Turks are asking for a bit of retaliation. I can't believe the EU and Nato put up with them - we are going out of our way to support the bombing of kurds (who are helping us fight ISIL) by aligning ourselves with their interests. Turkey haven't done a damn thing to help (guess what, they are sunnis and there is a reason why every single country bordering them hates them, they are dicks as has been said previously).

But there won't be a shooty war between Russia and Turkey, Putin will simply send a humanitarian delivery of S-300's to the Kurds. Kurdish and a lot of soverign Turkish airspace will end up a no-fly zone for the Turkish airforce without Nato Wild Weasel support.

I don't see Nato bombing the kurds anytime soon, Turkey lost the game before they even started - making Erdogan a prat.

[img] ?oh=b5cc594d653e372cdd6adfcb3750e5d9&oe=56FACA35[/img]

LOL @epicyclo

Shooting down a military jet on the border of a conflict zone is just about understandable, but shooting the ejected pilots as they parachute down is not on from a Nato member.

[i] shooting the ejected pilots as they parachute down is not on from a Nato member. [/i]

It was the FSA people who were shooting at the pilot.

The same FSA people the Russians have been bombing for weeks.

I might not think it was great but it's the only chance they've really had to 'fire back' since Russia pitched in.

I might not think it was great but it's the only chance they've really had to 'fire back' since Russia pitched in.

I don't think that the FSA have signed the convention, have they?

Plus I didn't condone, I understood the motivation of the people doing it.

Turkey aren't helping their tourist trade -

[img] [/img]

Strangely, under the Geneva conventions, ejected pilots are considered "shipwrecked" and therefore are protected. I guess there's an open question if an aircrew that is shot down during a mission attacking some forces can really expect the people they were attacking to shrug their shoulders when they're on a more equal footing (or even disadvantaged dangling under a parachute canopy).

Strangely, under the Geneva conventions, ejected pilots are considered "shipwrecked" and therefore are protected.

Oh, and RT has footage of one of the pilots supposedly dead on the ground. Can't say the Turkmen militia have really gone out of their way to avoid reprisals from the Russians.

Turkey aren't helping their tourist trade -

Russian tourists have a reputation for being horrible, so maybe there are some dry eyes? Big chance for Greece to take advantage of the folk not going to Egypt or Turkey 🙂

My gran made a cuppa for a German pilot who bailed out during The Battle of Britain while waiting to be captured.

That Putin is a cheeky chappie, thinking he can do what he wants. How they got away with the shooting down of and then blocking crash investigaters gaining acces to the passenger jet in Ukraine the whole time using the "shaggy"defence of it wasn't me, without being brought to book.

The russian pilots were warned many times, and if you make threats in such situations you have to be prepared to carry them out otherwise be prepared to have the piss taken even more.

[quote=wrecker ]An ejected Argentinian pilot landed in the middle of the British soldiers he was bombing. As I understand it, he remained unharmed (despite the use of napalm by the Argentinians). If the Uk can do it, then so can everyone else.

Strange way to put it, as if the British are uncivilised, and nobody should behave worse than us. Back in the real world, I'd be surprised and upset if the British harmed a downed pilot, but surprised if those in Syria didn't.

zippykona ... nice anecdote

She did piss in his tea mind you.

zippykona ... nice anecdote

I'd be surprised and upset if the British harmed a downed pilot, but surprised if those in Syria didn't.

Puts me in mind of a section from Derek Robinson's fantastic Piece Of Cake, where the pilots are discussing whether or not to shoot enemy pilots after they've bailed out, the consensus was that it's unsporting and there's no point - "after all, he's not going to climb back in again, is he?".

TBH, I suspect they have as much knowledge of the Geneva convention as we do of the rules behind Mornington Crescent. They've been killing members of the FSA for weeks/months, it's hardly a surprising outcome if the pilots have been killed the moment they come face to face without a plane and 6000m between them.

Like the Charlie Hebdo attacks, you don't need to support or condone the act to understand why it happened.

My gran made a cuppa for a German pilot who bailed out during The Battle of Britain while waiting to be captured.

TBH, in my view there's a difference between a war fought by volunteers and a war fought by conscripts. Your gran and the pilot probably both realized this.

You've read chewkw posts before right?

And every time a little bit of my inner sheeple zombie maggot dies.

Our forces are proffesionals bound by laws and rules so I expect them to do the right thing where as most of the Syrian rebel forces are driven by hate so shooting pilots who have ejected is no real suprise.

Apparently the polish airmen who flew with the RAF in WW2 would go after the German airman who bailed out after shooting them down, again motivated by hate.

Like the Charlie Hebdo attacks, you don't need to support or condone the act to understand why it happened.

[quote=wrecker ]

I'd be surprised and upset if the British harmed a downed pilot, but surprised if those in Syria didn't.

Why is it strange? Would you expect the opposite? Yet my expectations appear to have been confirmed.

If signing up to and complying with the Geneva Convention makes us better than people who haven't then yes I do consider us to be better - no other superiority is implied.

Strange way to look at it, that we should somehow consider ourselves better than everyone else.

You really think its strange for a U person to view themselves and our brave boys amongst the best trained and most moral in a killing zone?

Would you prefer it and find it more realistic if folk could see no difference between our boys and ISIS troops?

Nope. I'm against double standards is all.
Somehow it's "understandable" for a certain group of people to act in a way that we would not like to see our own people behave.

It's not understandable, it's deplorable (hence the geneva conv) and no attempt to normalise it should be considered OK.

The Alexadra Blackman case shows we do hold our soldiers to account for their actions although there's a vocal group of people who feel he should never have been tried and was serving his country to the best of his ability under difficult circumstances.

To understand is not to forgive, as far as these guys shooting at the airman or any other 'war zone' actions against a foe is concerned.

Good comparison. Considering the manner in which the enemy behaved (i.e; no rules whatsoever), is it right or fair that Sgt Blackman is in prison?
If it is, when should we expect to see some Taliban in the Hague?

It's a war zone. Dog eat dog, kill or be killed. Hunger, tiredness frustration, emotions running all over the place.

And yet, from the comfort of our chairs, in our centrally heated homes and or offices that are no where near the war zone, we can pontificate about the rules of engagement, how it needs to be fair, how [b] [i]we[/i][/b] are so much better behaved than them, how [b][i]our[/i][/b] morals are superior to anyone else's.

And yet [b][i]we[/i][/b] still wage war, commit atrocities and celebrate victories...

How much more bullshit can be spread about over an Internet forum?

[i]If it is, when should we expect to see some Taliban in the Hague? [/i]

The problem that 'we' have is that we don't recognise a lot of these groups as 'soldiers' or representing a state/government so we can't use 'war crime'/Geneva Convention laws to prosecute them.

If we don't recognise them as soldiers, then the geneva convention doesn't apply. They can be summarily shot as spies or mercenaries, quite legitimately.

Somehow it's "understandable" for a certain group of people to act in a way that we would not like to see our own people behave.

I understand why some folk join the army, love the Queen and country and will kill for it as an example. Its understandable

Do you think i support it now ?Finding something understandable is not condoning it

[i]They can be summarily shot as spies[/i]

How does that work?

Spies are a bit cloak and dagger, not turning a purloined 4x4 with a 40mm ack-ack gun strapped to the back capturing large amounts of territory within the country of their birth?

I can understand using 'civilian' law but spies have to act for another state during a time of war don't they?

A bit hazy but it's to do with "lawful combatants". Prisoner of war status only applies if there are certain conditions. Mercenaries for example do not qualify (which many of the Daesh bods, being foreign could be classified as). Also representing a state is another.
I seem to remember that this had something to do with the US/UK military types and east germans always wearing uniforms when crossing the border too.

[quote=wrecker ]Nope. I'm against double standards is all.

Well given the Brits demonstrably don't kill downed pilots and the Syrian militia do, then I'm not sure where the double standard is.

Somehow it's "understandable" for a certain group of people to act in a way that we would not like to see our own people behave.

I didn't even say it was understandable, I just said I wasn't surprised. Are you surprised? If so, then you need to wake up. I'm simply being realistic here - nothing to do with British superiority.

There are players in the region who have stoked destability in Syria. I really hope the act of the pilots doesn't bite Turkey.

The UK wouldn't down any Russian incursion or there would be a real long hard think before it would be considered.

Those US heavy weaponary too. Hmmmm.

Turkey might feel abit of pain over this I.e have to allow a strike back.

Quid pro quo.

No you didn't aracer. Am I surprised that these people act like this? Absolutely not!
My point is that if anyone finds it in any way acceptable or understandable, then they are in no position to judge our own people when/if they behave comparably which is very rare, or even the americans which is somewhat less rare.

One thing is for sure, those Turkmen are going to get battered for a good while.

The Turkmen locals will be getting some serious Russian payback, C4 news just showed them using a TOW on a rescue helicopter.

then they are in no position to judge our own people when/if they behave comparably

Surely we all expect "our troops"* to behave better than ISIS?

* any civilised professional army to have higher standards than a rag tag bunch of mercenaries [ except the A team though ]

I tend to agree with your broader point that those of us who will never serve in the arena are probably not the ones on the best position to judge those who do and have.

Madness from Turkey. There will be consequences to hurt them financially and their aspirations in Syria. Russian aircraft over Turkey for a maximum of 17 seconds as per trace shown earlier. It could very well be the missile struck the aircraft when it was back over Syria.

So my guess ?

Turkey warned very strongly by NATO behind closed doors not to do this again
Russia to act financially against Turkey. Already seeing headlines that Russian tour companies are cancelling booked holidays. Russian tourist spending is very important to Turkey
Russia to up rhetoric that Turkey has been supporting IS by turning blind eye to estimated 50,000 people who've crossed the border to join and have been buying IS oil
Russia to substantially up attacks on Turkmen
Russia to up support for PKK
Russia to supply anti aircraft weaponry to Assad to target Turkish aircraft conducting airstrikes in Syria mainly against the PKK

Chances of agreement between coalition Russia and Iran over Syria and IS look pretty slim now

Pilots / Spies. The key thing here is whether you are in uniform. A pilot in uniform is not a spy. He can be shot if he's considered a threat, that leaves a lot of room for interpretation. If a pilot is trying to escape or indeed if a rescue is mounted the ground forces can easily take the view he is a threat now or in the future if he makes it back to Syria to attack them again.