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Drac
Full Member
A 60 year old has now been arrested.
His name will be released if charged I'm guessing. He won't be too popular, especially if he lives local to that area...
Regardless of who they are, the biggest question is what exactly was their justification for doing it? As pointed out, it can’t possibly be ‘get orf moi laaand’, ‘cos it can’t possibly be their land!
It just beggars belief that anyone could have an issue with a bloody tree that in no way could possibly be an issue for anyone around there.
Lock the **** up until a) it grows back or b) he hands over the funds to have it replaced with an identical one.
CountZero
Full Member
Regardless of who they are, the biggest question is what exactly was their justification for doing it? As pointed out, it can’t possibly be ‘get orf moi laaand’, ‘cos it can’t possibly be their land!
It just beggars belief that anyone could have an issue with a bloody tree that in no way could possibly be an issue for anyone around there.
I've already made a few assumptions about the type of bloke in my head.
Second arrest
im syc-a-more people being implicated in this
I've been climbing with a guy today who used to bivvy under that tree back in the 60s when climbing at Peel Crag and Crag Lough.
That tree meant a lot of things to a lot of people.
he hands over the funds to have it replaced with an identical one.
You mean they don't give credit at the 300-year-old tree shop?
he hands over the funds to have it replaced with an identical one
hmmmmm I sense a slight problem with that
hmmmmm I sense a slight problem with that
He should be made to assemble a duplicate, full size one from matchsticks and if it isn't upto snuff, start again until it's done right.
Then chop his balls off.
CountZero
Regardless of who they are, the biggest question is what exactly was their justification for doing it?
I also want to know their reasons for cutting down the tree.
My only guess is that the person is annoyed by many people visiting the tree, walking on his land and parking cars near his land etc. As a result, The person has taken his anger out of the tree.
What is the biggest size of tree that can be relocated?
I was involved in a new school in Myanmar. I suggested more trees for shade.
The end of the week a row of trucks, a digger and a crane arrived. And I was asked where they should plant the 30foot+ tall, 18" trunk
diameter trees they had bought.... By the end of the day [s]we [/s] they had planted 30 trees around the school and moved the snake fencing around them.
Regardless of who they are, the biggest question is what exactly was their justification for doing it? As pointed out, it can’t possibly be ‘get orf moi laaand’, ‘cos it can’t possibly be their land!
It just beggars belief that anyone could have an issue with a bloody tree that in no way could possibly be an issue for anyone around there.
there’s a lot of easily angered people who can get incredibly angry over things that the rest of us find trivial.
it’s feasible to me that it is someone who is pissed off this the Insta fans traipsing over their land, parking in stupid places etc. it’s telling that some of the people who are most pissed off are upset either because they had recently been there and taken pics or because they had it on a bucket list! Covid and insta have brought a lot of people to places that were previously largely ignored. Whether this was the motivation or not; those people need to reflect on whether ticking it off a list or grabbing a picture is as harm free as it first sounds.
it’s also feasible to me that it’s a pissed off (ex)employee, if you think people get upset over stupid petty stuff (like parking and business) then by god do they get upset if they fall out with an employer.
weirder, but possible is that it’s a statement about environmental impact. Why is it ok to cut down 200 trees over here but not one over there? In that sense it’s no more bonkers than just stop oil or maybe even some banksy art. Simply because it was a nice view isn’t really that compelling an answer. It’s sentimentality might be but if 100s of people drive to visit it - does it’s environmental downside outweigh its upside? Those arguments certainly gave me more pause for thought than any “art” I’ve seen for years…
i don’t believe any of them are good enough excuses or justifications but I’m pretty sure this isn’t mindless - it was done to make a statement. Potentially the best way for that statement to be heard is to be caught and tried in a court where the press will almost certainly publicise it widely!
Or indeed a sly move by Northumberland National Park to increase publicity 😜
I’ve already made a few assumptions about the type of bloke in my head.
Well, yes, so have I, but I can’t publish them here, without reprisals!
it’s feasible to me that it is someone who is pissed off this the Insta fans traipsing over their land,
But the land around it is National Trust land, so of no relevance to anyone else.
That's a thought provoking post by Poly. I still think the people that did it are pricks, and don't 'agree' with the logical outcome* but an audit of the number of people that drive to visit and take selfies there compared to the good the tree did (taking aside that essentially trees are good just by being) - this was an act of environmental kindness.
Yes, we know that we need to make sacrifices to our way of life in order for the greater good and in some cases those changes will be painful The tree had to go.....
Hmmm........ there's a pub discussion.
* as in - logic is sound but I don't like the outcome
I think people may be disappointed with the outcome for the offender. Presumably the tree has a TPO type thing on its what offence has the person caused other than cut down a tree with a TPO (which is typically a fine of a £1,000 or so where I live) or is it different t than that?
In the eyes of the law it is a tree and how famous that tree is doesn't make any difference just the same as if I murder a famous person it is not different that me murdering Bob down the road.
but an audit of the number of people that drive to visit and take selfies there compared to the good the tree did
People do actually go there to see the most dramatic sections of Hadrians Wall not just the much less old but (was) perfectly placed tree. Removing the tree won’t massively impact visitor numbers but will cause a drop in midnight photographers bumbling about the place. Which tbh knowing what twunts a few of the tenant farmers are in the vicinity could be their ill thought reasoning for such a terrible overreaction crime.
I think people may be disappointed with the outcome for the offender.
You need permission to fell a tree near a scheduled monument normally, and the fact it was felled over it means it could have been damaged. That's a criminal offence, so there is hope yet, although this is my own opinion, not seen anything in the media, probably as they don't do any research
I hope they don't name those responsible. My view is that those types would wear it as a badge of honour.
Starve them of attention and deny them their infamy.
If they can just make one more arrest then they’ll have the tree fellers that did this.
But the land around it is National Trust land, so of no relevance to anyone else.
I’ve not been - but is it all Nat Trust that people visiting park/walk over? Does Nat Trust farm it themselves or have tennant farmers (who may not own it but will certainly have an opinion on who should/should not walk/park there). You could probably also add a tennant (whether farmer or not) who’s pissed off at Nat Trust for whatever reason like a rent increase or eviction notice to my list of potentials.
I think people may be disappointed with the outcome for the offender. Presumably the tree has a TPO type thing on its what offence has the person caused other than cut down a tree with a TPO (which is typically a fine of a £1,000 or so where I live) or is it different t than that?
most likely to be prosecuted as criminal damage which *can* carry a custodial sentence. I’d be surprised if it wasn’t part of the scheduled monument protection - but I suspect simple criminal damage is a bigger penalty and straightforward prosecution if they have evidence.
id expect the outcome would be the same as if I went and cut my neighbours tree down when they were on holiday or the people throwing paint at famous paintings in galleries. considerably more than tagging a bus stop but still not enough to make people who are furious feel it’s justice. I expect if this is a first offender they will get a suspended prison sentence, with unpaid community work.
Breakfast sketch ... Went a bit gloomy 🙁
What is the biggest size of tree that can be relocated? Would it be possible to move and replant a relatively mature tree there?
It’s not dead. Anyway it’s whin stone up there, good luck using that machine to dig a perfect hole in the exact spot through the stone and not damaging the wall. Let alone it even getting in there.
The guy, recently evicted from Plankey Mill Farm, appears to be in the frame for this. Clearly, someone with a rather large axe (or saw) to grind...
Hmm interesting. Article here contains the following quote
"Walter told ChronicleLive at the time the battle had "broken a proud man" adding: "I was born here. It is like a tree with roots".
Maybe we should all crowdfund a sculptor to create a steel or bronze replacement and 'plant' that there instead? If everyone in the country who has clearly been touched by this contributed a fiver we could have a magnificent piece of public art created.
He was evicted by the Jesuits, so why (allegedly) destroy a landmark tree on National Trust land? I don't get it?
"He was evicted by the Jesuits, so why (allegedly) destroy a landmark tree on National Trust land? I don’t get it?"
Because NT were one of the complainants to the land owners (Jesuits) about his "illegal" campsite and associated noise?
Maybe we should all crowdfund a sculptor to create a steel or bronze replacement and ‘plant’ that there instead?
Given that all the photos seem to be taken from the same angle, a simple silhouette would suffice.
blokeuptheroad
Full Member
He was evicted by the Jesuits, so why (allegedly) destroy a landmark tree on National Trust land? I don’t get it?
As saix above (*if* he is the perp!), he had a run in with the NT too apparently.
Let's face it, this is just a much lower level parallel of the disgruntled American worker that goes into his office with an AR15 because it's "all his coworkers fault" he's just gone bankrupt/gone through a divorce or whatever.
Lower level thank goodness but similar motivational mindset.
Arborist, local, and some family history here. Sorry to urinate on everyone's picnic but it's no more than 100yrs old. The immediate area has been systematically cleared to give it prominence over time. Plus wear from walkers, sightseers etc plus husbandry, have all contributed to it's iconic status. Not to say the act of vandalism wasn't reprehensible, but some of the utter emotional nonsense is ridiculous. I hope some memorial icon isn't commissioned to replace it, but they'll be queuing up for grants no doubt. It'll coppice itself, but it'll take 30 yrs and some careful management to get the iconic shape back. Maybe not good enough for the "want it now" people.
Local here.
It’s well over a 100 years old but way less than 200. Sorry to piss in your chips @brian2 but it was a planted copse by John Clayton, he bought large areas of land to protect the wall. He had much of covered with turf to prevent it being used for building. It was the only tree to survive. But yes, it’ll grow back within a few decades.
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/inspire-me/blog/blog-posts/meet-man-saved-hadrians-wall/
OK Drac. Well over, but way less. Whatever. But yes, manicured.
the utter emotional nonsense is ridiculous
If people feel an emotional connection with it, I think it's a bit crass to call that 'ridiculous', even if you don't feel it. Does that include relatives of those who chose to have their ashes scattered beneath it? Or to propose marriage there? Yes there's some sentimentalism involved that isn't 100% rational or clear headed, but many thousands of people feel it and I hold my hands up to feeling it too. It is also symptomatic of the more widespread disregard for nature and the environment and has clearly struck a poignant chord with a great many people. Not sure 'ridiculous' is the best descriptor for that sentiment tbh.
but some of the utter emotional nonsense is ridiculous
You'll be telling me next it's ridiculous to tear up at a Mahler symphony.
Roads above Dundee today, the similarity was more striking in real life.
Whilst appalled like most others on this thread. Cant help thinking this would of probably only made the local news if it happened 20 or 30 years ago.
Some the comments calling 'twunt' tenant farmers on here are quite frankly shocking.
Many tenant farmers live a hand to mouth existence, farming on such marginal land.
Grew up in the area, and can remember you used to see hardly anyone at Sycamore Gap or the wall for that matter.
Hopefully the area will still get visitors, although I guess the insta crowd wont be back
Some the comments calling ‘twunt’ tenant farmers on here are quite frankly shocking.
Sadly it’s not just here. Lots on social media blaming the local farmers.
Some the comments calling ‘twunt’ tenant farmers on here are quite frankly shocking.
Many tenant farmers live a hand to mouth existence, farming on such marginal land.
Comment. In the singular, thanks. I’ve live (very) local, all of my 56 years and ‘some’ (not all of course but by god they make up for the nice ones and then some) of the local tenant farmers are sadly absolutely bell’s but let’s not let that get in the way. Please don’t take my comment out of context please!
Many do live hand to mouth many also don’t, I wouldn’t want their life but that’s my choice.
I see an attention seeker has publicly expressed his disgust at NT removing the sapling he decided to plant in it's place. I knew it wouldn't take long. Something he bought at a garden centre.
They used to only come out at night. Now they get the oxygen of publicity.
Yeah I’ve family members who used to be tenant farmers a bit further east from there, they had some of the wall on the land they farmed, and they’re certainly not in the twunt category.
Anyway, just seen pix of police taking away a bagged up husky saw, from a farm.
Yep apparently the NT had already indicated they would move the recently planted tree and inform the person in question. Seems hes never been to the spot, previously so yes seems to be an attention seeker.
1000 year old yew tree ripped out by a farmer down here on a site near the Battle of Hastings.
I love Yew trees, lovely old things.
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/23824095.yew-tree-predates-battle-hastings-felled/
😞
Im far more upset about that Yew than the sycamore.
Sounds like the old guy they arrested is an ex lumberjack. His daughter says he’s too ill to have done something physical like that as he has leaky heart valves. He’s recently been or is being evicted (by the NT?). Given the paint marks on the tree and the half arsed job of carrying out the felling could he have painted the lines/ shown the young lad they also arrrested and bailed where to cut/ what to do? I’m no Quincy but sounds like the likely chain of events to me!
I'm disgusted by the felling of that Yew. These are precious with medicinal properties, berries for the birds, evergreen thus providing shelter for all sorts of beasties all year round.
Given the paint marks on the tree and the half arsed job of carrying out the felling could he have painted the lines/ shown the young lad they also arrested and bailed where to cut/ what to do? I’m no Quincy but sounds like the likely chain of events to me!
Hmmmm. Conspiracy much ?
police taking away a bagged up husky saw, from a farm.
They can do oil analysis to see of it matches the chain oil in the saw.
They can do oil analysis to see of it matches the chain oil in the saw.
What would be the point of that? Chainsaw oil isn't unique to each chainsaw. It's not like a fingerprint or DNA. At best it might tell you the same brand was used, but probably also used in thousands of other chainsaws, therefore of no evidential value.
Paint chips off it left at the scene might be more viable. Not convinced though they'll be using such expensive forensic techniques on what legally (if not morally) is a fairly minor crime.
Bent or damaged teeth on the chain, could be matched to the cut surface of the tree.
. It’s not like a fingerprint or DNA.
And neither is paint - it's not conclusive but not all oil will be the same (he may be a cheap skate and use vegetable or old engine oil) but it adds to a case, as does paint chips and finding synamore dust/chips on the saw and maybe the same soil on his boots.
Oil analysis is not "forensic" or expensive either.
Oil analysis is not “forensic”
Forensic evidence = 'criminal evidence gathered through scientific methods'. Chemical analysis of oil found at a 'crime scene' clearly meets that definition. In the real world those resources are used in violent crime, robbery etc. Not breaking a tree protection order or damaging a dry stone wall
I'd imagine soil on his boots, any stray hairs found on the site coupled with the same oil brand may be better indicators. Could the triangulate his phone history???
Can we lay off the speculation of who it is please. It’s a live case remember.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-67015699
"Sycamore Gap: Hadrian's Wall damage found after tree cut down"
Perhaps they will prosecute for damage to a Scheduled Monument 🙂
Can we lay off the speculation of who it is please. It’s a live case remember.
Thread killer.
I really doubt any speculation on a cycling forum would have any bearing whatsoever on such a case.
Perhaps they will prosecute for damage to a Scheduled Monument 🙂
Seems the most likely, as cutting down a tree (didn't have a tpo?) is otherwise a fairly minor crime.
Perhaps they will prosecute for damage to a Scheduled Monument
Time to break out this classic again. Ahem.
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Thread killer.
I really doubt any speculation on a cycling forum would have any bearing whatsoever on such a case.
Possibly not but the owners can get in a lot of trouble.
The thread can still carry on.
We need more signs in our life!!
If I was the forensic guy I’d be looking for chips of the sycamore gap tree under the clutch cover of his chainsaw or in his boots/ (chainsaw) trouser pockets.
The penalty for damaging a scheduled monument is max 2 yrs or unlimited fine.
some of you are watching too many tv forensics shows. When I was assaulted(by a farmer who tore my videocam off it’s handlebar mount and smashed it on the ground, the police refused to test it for fingerprints on the grounds that the camera wasn’t high value. Then they said they couldn’t prosecute because they had no evidence. They’re hardly going to throw resources at a tree worth zero. Best they’ll hope for is a confession or someone coming forward with more information.
Did your assault cause a national furore with demands for action from senior politicians? You'd be surprised how motivating that can be for Chief Constables.
Which is probably why they've gone and seen if there's even a scratch on the wall, because it opens up more popular charging options.
The police themselves have reported forensics teams being present.
Forensic evidence will easily tie the suspects to the location. If you go anywhere, there'll be a bit of you at the scene, and bit of the scene on you.
Additional evidence will link the chain saw to the damage, having the saw in your possession, etc etc, it all builds into a case that will be argued about in court.
Forensic evidence will easily tie the suspects to the location. If you go anywhere, there’ll be a bit of you at the scene, and bit of the scene on you.
Locard's exchange principle; the original silent witness. But when were they at the location? School trip the week before?
It's one thread in a gazillion that need to be drawn together
Locard’s exchange principle; the original silent witness. But when were they at the location? School trip the week before?
Sawdust wasn’t there the week before, nor were the fresh footprints or the chainsaw teeth marks that match the cut of the suspect’s saw.
They’re hardly going to throw resources at a tree worth zero
Value is probably not important, what it comes down to is what they choose to allocate resources too. And you can bet they're allocating loads to this.
Back to CSI: Twice Brewed.
Surely it would be CSI: Once Brewed?
Hadrian’s Wall was built using a primitive form of concrete<br /><br />
second point of order. It wasn’t primitive, it was hydraulic. You could mix it and it would go off underwater, or the pi$$ing Northumberland rain.
Sawdust wasn’t there the week before, nor were the fresh footprints or the chainsaw teeth marks that match the cut of the suspect’s saw
You're assuming that anything that links suspect to scene was found at all.
My chainsaw was stolen but I found it in the field nearby, etc... One thread in a gazillion
Surely it would be CSI: Once Brewed?
Depends which way you come at it.
second point of order. It wasn’t primitive, it was hydraulic. You could mix it and it would go off underwater, or the pi$$ing Northumberland rain.
I bow to your more concrete understanding.
You’re assuming that anything that links suspect to scene was found at all.
I’m not, just pointing out what they may be looking for.
My chainsaw was stolen but I found it in the field nearby, etc… One thread in a gazillion
And it just happened to have sawdust from the sycamore on it.