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Rode the Loch Muick - Glen Clova loop yesterday and stopped at an amazing rock pool near the top of Glen Clova for a swim (it was properly warm in the glen). Any top tips for really good wild swimming places that require a bit of effort to get to (and so probably won’t have many/ any people)?
Loch A'an (Loch Avon)
Yeah, loch a'an or loch etchachan in the Cairngorms, loch Coire ardair on Craig meagaidh,
I'd love to swim in loch coruisk on Skye.....
Loch Enoch in the Galloways, Coire Fionn Lochan on Arran, Lochan a' Chreachain off the Beinn of the same name, some lovely pools on the way off Ben More (Mull) too. Just some I've been at recently.
So many in the Cairngorms it's hard not to come across one on a walk. I camped by Shelter stone crag last Thu night, some braw wee pools there in Garbh uisge mor, just before the water tumblrs down into Loch Avon, as below looking into Hells Lum.
6 people died last weekend swimming in Lochs in Scotland.
Take care and don't think about the killer beasties under the water
Aye, dreadful, the incident at Ardlui is heartbreaking. 3 others were rivers, hellish.
Twas a shock when I heard it on the radio. 3 from one family because there was no sign saying the water was deep. I am sure it was poor sound bite editing but seemed to make no sense
3 from one family because there was no sign saying the water was deep.
3 from one family (I actually think it was 2 and a family friend) because there is a lack of education & appreciation of the dangers of the water in the UK.
Possibly made worse this year because people are staying home and are used to safe lifeguarded beaches on holiday. And the unusually hot weather up here has seen thousands of people head to their nearest bit of water.
Great suggestions thanks. Will definitely be seeking them out. And Nobeer that's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.
I hadn't realised folk had died this weekend swimming. The waters can be surprisingly cold if your not expecting it. Personally I'm confident about what I'm doing but, yeah you do need to be careful wild swimming.
It sounds like none of them could swim, one fell in and the others tried to help. Mum, son and dads friend. Other son is in intensive care, what a horrendous outcome of a family day in the sun.
Two 18 year olds died in a local reservoir at the end of summer 4 years they'd been swimming there all summer, one dived off the dam tower, didn't come back up, his pal dived on after him, and also didn't... 😟
swam in the dart this morning and even down in the tropical SW the rivers are still cold enough to induce a bit of cold water response as you go in.
Lochan a’Choire at Creag Meagaidh was lovely on Saturday. The 6km walk in means it’s relatively quiet.
3 from one family (I actually think it was 2 and a family friend) because there is a lack of education & appreciation of the dangers of the water in the UK.
There's a big difference between lack of appreciation and the frank negligence of not bothering to teach your kids how to swim.
The education I received (apart from my parents taking the time to take me and my brother swimming every week) was far more about avoiding outdoor water entirely and much less about how to risk assess a situation before getting in.
Public swimming baths can't replicate the shock of falling through 24C water into 4C in the length of a metre, but I don't know how you'd teach that without tying a line to someone and throwing them into a quarry.
the shock of falling through 24C water into 4C
You'd be hard pressed to find that temperature difference anywhere in the uk. Maybe on a very unusually warm march day. Possibly. The coldest lochs and seas are significantly warmer than that at the water's edge by the time you can expect air temperatures that warm.
It's a hard one - outdoor swimming is becoming a massively more popular, which I think is a good thing. But this does mean the inept/unwary are seeing others swimming and aping them without appreciating the subconsious risk assessments done by those who know what they are doing.
Two things bug me - Firstly the deaths are all lumped together so the early twenties lads with a skin full and then some entering the water at 2am and drowning could be confused with actual swimmers in the news headlines making the the pastime of 'outdoor swimming' look more dangerous than it is. This leads to tuts from bystanders equally ignorant when entering the water perfectly safely.
Secondly the born again swimmers who are flocking to the pastime (it's not a sport) and using tow floats for peace of mind and a buoyancy aid. They are not, they are not marketed as that and they have great big signs printed on them saying so. If you only feel comfortable entering the water with one to hang on to for a breather you have no place getting in the water in the first place. Sure, great for holding your car keys and to help make you more visible to other water users but that's it. Even then don't leave the swim area and enter the jetski lane and get irate with a jet skier for getting too close to you - it's not a force shield of protection or access all areas pass, you still have t engage your noggin. Jet skiers are a fair way down the evolutionary scale so don't expect too much ability to spot stuff from them. I got hounded off the outdoor swim society facebook page for airing this view as an 'elitist'. There will be deaths caused by this over confidence.
Public swimming baths can’t replicate the shock of falling through 24C water into 4C in the length of a metre, but I don’t know how you’d teach that without tying a line to someone and throwing them into a quarry.
What a strange comment, I presume you got taught all manner of things at school (like history) without having to have an immersive experience.
It sounds like none of them could swim,
Be interested to know if this is true, as it puts a very different slant on it.
Good rant convert but marked down for use of paragraphs: 6/10.
The family at Loch Lomond weren't intentionally swimming I don't think, I think one of the kids fell in off a pier then others went in to try and rescue them despite not being able to swim. Such a horrendous incident. 🙁
I believe there was one swimmer, the father.
What a strange comment, I presume you got taught all manner of things at school (like history) without having to have an immersive experience.
What a strange comment. I'd like you to teach someone to ride a bike by theory only and see how they get on.
the rivers are still cold enough to induce a bit of cold water response as you go in
Not enough people are even aware of cold water response as a thing. It's what that can make jumping into cold deep water lethal. Not sure if it would be a factor in the Loch Lomond drownings but unexpectedly falling into deep water can be dangerous even for a swimmer.
Two things bug me – Firstly the deaths are all lumped together so the [b]early twenties lads with a skin full and then some entering the water at 2am and drowning[/b] could be confused with actual swimmers in the news headlines making the the pastime of ‘outdoor swimming’ look more dangerous than it is. This leads to tuts from bystanders equally ignorant when entering the water perfectly safely.
Absolutely this.
(In bold, are you referencing the recent drowning in Crookes Valley pond in Sheffield by any chance? Because that's more or less exactly what happened. And then the news reports bang on about the dangers of 'hidden currents' and cold water etc. It's a chuffing pond.)
Most open water swimmers have at least a rudimentary understanding of the risks and wear a wetsuit. Most of the drowning are people messing around in the water. Bit like 'cyclists' who ride down the road pulling wheelies, not really representative of the wider cycling community.
There's also a major issue with some community groups and not learning to swim.
OP - there are some nice river spots on Spey, Royal Dee and even Tay that are worth a look at with a longer access.
Argyll is littered with smaller lochs.
Far end of Loch Katrine has a couple of spots - best to cycle to them. Quite cold water in my experience.
Not enough people are even aware of cold water response as a thing. It’s what that can make jumping into cold deep water lethal.
I'd guess the rivers here are about 15deg at the moment. not what you'd term cold water swimming by any stretch and i'm happy in without a wetsuit for up to an hour or so.
but my breathing still involuntarily speeds up as I get in, nothing I can do about it. Its more pronounced in the winter (including involuntary swearing)...
Public swimming baths can’t replicate the shock of falling through 24C water into 4C in the length of a metre, but I don’t know how you’d teach that without tying a line to someone and throwing them into a quarry
Where are you swimming. ...
My observations from being at various swimming spots are both adults and parents are very Blaise with minimal supervision and minimal safety precautions being taken. ....it's very safe right up until it's not and if young kids are much more than arm's length away with no life vest and gets into trouble ....your very quickly looking at hospital trip or worse. - that's not to say a life vest absolves you of having to supervise your child though -but will buy you a little time if your spending a fair bit of time by the water and get distracted.
Thus the news isn't surprising in the slightest.
It sounds like none of them could swim,
Be interested to know if this is true, as it puts a very different slant on it.
None of the group, apart from Mr Asim, could swim.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-57972950
I dont understand why adults would allow children who cant swim to play on a pier.
but my breathing still involuntarily speeds up as I get in, nothing I can do about it
You're expecting it and will take steps to avoid hyperventilating. Someone without the water experience will be taken by surprise by the reflex and may well panic, making things worse. If they're suddenly over their head in cold water (and it doesn't have to be that cold, it can even happen in water as warm as 20c) with their mouth and nose is uncovered the gasp reflex can cause them to inhale water. And things rapidly go downhill from there.
You’d be hard pressed to find that temperature difference anywhere in the uk. Maybe on a very unusually warm march day. Possibly. The coldest lochs and seas are significantly warmer than that at the water’s edge by the time you can expect air temperatures that warm.
I *think* @flaperon is referring to a thermocline in the water, where the top 1m or so is nice and warm, but then there is a sudden reduction in temperature over a short vertical distance - not the difference between air and water temperature. Probably not down to 4C at most swimming spots, but could easily be cold enough to induce a response when jumping or diving takes you to those depths.
My limnology is a bit rusty though so I could be talking bollox.
There’s also a major issue with some community groups and not learning to swim.
Also a lack of opportunity - for example Clackmannashire where I live currently has no public swimming pool.
Not a huge county but 50,000 people with no public baths and poor public transport links. You're options for teaching kids to swim are a) throw them in the Forth / Gartmorn Dam b) Find £££ and send them to Dollar Academy which has it's own pool or c) Drive them to Dunfermline, Stirling or Falkirk which can be 20 to 45 mins by car and impractical by public transport. Clearly out of the reach of many parents.
We're lucky in that we have the time / experience / resources to teach our kids both indoor in and open water swimming. But, I know that in my kids primary school it's now a small minority that are learning to swim at the "right" age due to the above,
Also an issue in cities with swimming baths being concentrated into mega sports centres with fewer community baths. Where I grew up there were 4 baths with 33m pools within a short distance, now all replaced by 1 mega pool which is fine if you happen to be close to it.
Top marks tomd that's another observation we had.
Around here if you didn't get your kid into council swim lessons age 6 months it's dead mans boots to get them in later.
We have to travel a good distance to get the lessons as well. I understand the importance of being able to swim it's a life skill and we are fortunate enough to be able to persevere but the barrier to entry is high you can see why many don't bother.
The residents of Mallaig and the surrounding area had to form a charity to build and operate their own pool as the nearest available was Fort William. For those that don't know, it's primarily a fishing village.
Accident statistics for 2020 show that only around 20% of drownings in the UK were attributed to "swimming".
There’s a big difference between lack of appreciation and the frank negligence of not bothering to teach your kids how to swim.
Cultural differences? look at the heavy clothes that are worn, I'd imagine that didn't help, added with cold water and lack of swim skills.
Bloody sad.
You’d be hard pressed to find that temperature difference anywhere in the uk. Maybe on a very unusually warm march day. Possibly. The coldest lochs and seas are significantly warmer than that at the water’s edge by the time you can expect air temperatures that warm
As OldTennisShoes said I think he's refering to the fact that most large freshwater bodies of water are relatively stagent. It's more noticeable if you get thrown in with some energy (e.g. off a pier or boat) but the water arround the shore can be significantly warmer than the water in the middle a couple of meters below the surface. It's not like the sea or a river where it's all basically the same temperature.
From sailing experience, launching the boat in waist deep water can feel completely different to getting thrown off the side at a rate of knots. And that's with a bouyancy aid which limits how deep you'll go.
OK fair enough. Misread. But a thermocline difference of 20 degrees in the depths you would reach diving off a boat or pier - highly doubtful....
Curiously when I did the Norseman triathlon many years ago in Norway it was in a fjord fed from a glacier. The default method to warm up on the swim was to duck dive down a couple of meters as the ice melt water stayed on the surface due to the different salinity. Was a very odd experience.
Salinity also makes a big difference to how deep you go in. People used to bobning around in the med at 25c on their summer hols will be very surprised in a freshwater immersion at 14c
Ditto the Aldi paddle boarders in their swimmers, im in a 3/2 with a long sleeve 1mm neo rash vest and the first immersion still jolts
As for dicking around on piers when you camt swim, then jumping in, when you cant swim, not the best idea. Throw in the bounacy aids, then raise the alarm. Tough call though, lesning over looking for a person and no one pops up, then your into the whole jumping into water of unknown depth from height conundrum.
@matt_outandabout not sure there's enough water in the Dee to swim at the moment. Any pointers for specific places on the Spey and Tay. Argyll is a good shout will look at a map. Used to sail in loch Venacher which I remember as being cold.
One of the most useful things we're not taught about cold water swimming is how to manage and regulate ones breathing and how to predict likely falls in temp (and depth) through feel of the surrounding temperature.
My partner takes our kids swimming in the sea, rivers and lakes. And their granny has taken them wild swimming from an early age. I'd agree that you need to get kids swimming from an early age so that situational awareness becomes a response.
not sure there’s enough water in the Dee to swim at the moment
An odd but surprisingly calm spot where there is..... Is down at milltimber bridge.
We use it as a natural endless pool out in the middle just beyond the bypass bridge....you'd think it would be a din but for as local as it is to both of us it's a nice spot for a dip on an evening without going too far.
I also just remembered this spot - I have only walked past in sub-zero, so never been in myself. However locals keep it a secret.
Nearby around Loch Tay....
Great beaches and you can swim to the island. - beach
Infinity Pool - careful it is the local outdoor lover lover spot for some locals. Hard to find. Heart shaped pool with 20' waterfall into it.
Big swimming pool - with lovely rock jumps in. See jumps
Tombreck Beach and Waterfalls - amazing camping spot surrounded by wild raspberries and strawberries, can be access best by boat but access from Tombreck too, waterfall can be impressive.
Sassanach Point - often has an osprey nest on the main tree, so be aware.
ly
*edit* - gah, I give up....anything with links in is not being posted, then it is posting as pure text...
Great beaches and you can swim to the island. – beach
at the killin end last week you could walk to the islands and not get beyond your mid thighs if you go from the spot marked "loch tay wild swim club" on google maps.....
@Convert your graph is not representative of a freshwater swimming spot in the UK.
(yup edited 😉 )
From https://www.outdoorswimmingsociety.com/thermal-layering/
In bodies of water such as reservoirs and lakes in temperate climates, in spring and summer the surface layer will begin to warm due both to the rise in air temperature and solar radiation. The latter only penetrates so far. Warmer water is less dense and will float, provided nothing – such as a storm – causes the water to mix. Generally this layer varies between 18 to 24℃ in a warm summer in the UK. The surface thermal layer can be anywhere from one to twenty meters deep, and interestingly will tend to be deeper in larger bodies of water because they are subject to greater wind action which mixes the warmer water to a deeper level.
The water in the depths will vary from 4℃ to 7℃ (water is at its densest at 4℃).
The narrow (around 1 meter deep) thermal layer between the top and bottom layers is called the thermocline, and here the temperature drops rapidly from around 18 to 7℃. It’s worth knowing about this layer because if you do jump in you might encounter colder water rather suddenly.
I knew my PhD in Large Lake Phytoplankton dynamics would come in useful on here one day 🙂
i think the biggest thing people could be told is to ease yourself into water really slowly, take your time getting in and let your body temperature adjust, and get yourself comfortable before going for a full dip or before you start diving in.
There should defo be simple public awareness campaigns going on just now.
I don't think people really know that 13/14/15C water you get up here(in scotland, obviously a bit warmer for you southerners) is vastly different from 13/14/15c air temperature. nor do they understand that really warm temps recently only really heat the top half metre or so of the water, if even and at that only to about 17/18c, it's still 14/15 underneath. And even then, further north you go colder it gets, and the higher in the hills you go it can get colder too.
must say though was out down the coast last week myself, the water was tremendous, easily spent an hour just floating about! 😆 once I spent 5 minutes acclimatising (It's a very important aspect of getting it our coastal waters, rivers and lochs)
@Convert that graph is bollox!
from a deep-water oceanography point of view it isn't.
generally lakes don't stratify much but they can if you get very little wind to mix them and a lot of solar input.
like last week.
Convert, your graph represents open ocean in the tropics. A couple of clicks further on from that Wiki page would have got you to Dimitic Lakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimictic_lake
your point about getting to 4 degrees by jumping off a pier probably still stands, though!
from a deep-water oceanography point of view it isn’t.
true dat!
Incidentally, if you want a real surreal experience, you take a youngish lad who's only really ever swam outdoors in the sea and get him to jump in off a research boat in the middle of Lake Ontario. Of course I new that fresh water is less dense than the sea and that I wouldn't float as well, but when you can't see the shore your brain tells you you are in the sea. Very weird!
Cold water shock can happen at almost any temp.
I always find that the biggest effect is when there is a large difference between air and water temperature.
I had a few involuntary gasps a c couple of weeks ago when the water temp was 20, considering the lowest we got down to over the winter was 1.9.
The biggest difference for me was that the air temp was over 30 on the recent swim where in the winter the temp difference was about 2 degrees.
You can get cold in most temps of water if you are not swimming
The narrow (around 1 meter deep) thermal layer between the top and bottom layers is called the thermocline, and here the temperature drops rapidly from around 18 to 7℃. It’s worth knowing about this layer because if you do jump in you might encounter colder water rather suddenly.
I knew my PhD in Large Lake Phytoplankton dynamics would come in useful on here one day 🙂
OK - all good stuff. But still not the 20 difference in your first post it is 😉
This layering I suppose is relevant if you had been paddling (or seen other people paddling) and made an assumption that it would be the same when you jumped in unprepared AND the water had been sufficiently still for sufficiently long not to be mixed the relatively shallow depth a dive/jump will go down to.
All those 'hidden currents' we keep getting warned about will ensure the water is nicely mixed anyway 😉
My standard approach is just to stick my head down and do 10 or so strokes without breathing (or half that for breaststroke) Your body and mind get over the shock, and when you breathe, you breathe more normally, rather than gasping, so you don't get the the additional panic of thinking you can't breathe. Also minimises the chances of yelping and screeching!
Listening to the interview on the link to the Loch Lomond incident is enlightening - it seems they all thought that the water would be shallow enough to step into as the end of the jetty was so close to shore. 3 or 4 of the people involved made the same mistake - stepping off the jetty into the water. If I followed correctly, the only adult able to swim was drowned.
There’s a big difference between lack of appreciation and the frank negligence of not bothering to teach your kids how to swim.
Wow, by what age should your children have been taught to swim so that you are not labelled as negligent? The kids were 7 and 9. Neither of the parents of the older child could swim themselves.
I dont understand why adults would allow children who cant swim to play on a pier.
If its where I think it was, then its not actually a pier at all - its a mix of shonky reporting and a distressed father who just lost his wife and son (who almost certainly doesn't speak English as his first language) - its actually a sort of narrow sand/gravel "spit" that runs from the out into the water. And the water suddenly gets deep on either side of it - so if you were just paddling at the side you could very suddenly end up out your depth.
I've actually been quite impressed with the moderate response from police and fire service providing advice. I kind of expected a more dramatic - keep out the water message but they seemed to have a more realistic, pragmatic message about being sensible, planning ahead and knowing what to do if it goes wrong. I was less impressed by Swim Scotland and the RLSS statements which seemed to be living in a bubble.
I suspect not many people know who to call if someone is in trouble on inland water? I suspect it's even more confusing on Loch Lomond (or Loch Ness)! On most inland water in Scotland the fire brigade will be the people that rescue you, and so calling them is recommended; on Loch Lomond there is a rescue boat which is requested to Launch by the police so you are better calling the police; on Loch Ness the rescue boat is an RNLI one which seems to be requested to launch by the coastguard. That's a really messy picture. The situation on L. Lomond may be even messier because on a busy hot weekend the rangers would almost certainly have been out in their rib and there is a good chance the police were too. Additionally, there would have been dozens of fast boats not that far away who would all have gone to help if only there was a joined-up system for sharing distress messages like there is at sea. I've no idea if it would have helped with either Friday night, or Saturday's incidents but trouble on such a large loch is hardly unusual. For non-swimmers it probably doesn't make much difference - no rescuer could get to you in time if they weren't standing nearby. There are signs in car parks around the national park about safe approaches to wild swimming - but I suspect if you are just going for a paddle to cool down on the road from Skye to Glasgow you are not likely to think they apply to you. I can't think of having seen a lifering or throw line anywhere other than purpose made piers/jetties around the loch. If they can afford a £100k rib (and its ongoing upkeep), I'd have to question if the park should be looking to provide some basic equipment at roadside car parks?
Poly, spot on, I think it's the wee concrete structure at a layby just south of ardlui station?.
Poor reporting, and knowalls assumptions ain't a great mix.
There was a call out / rescue reported the other day that ended well (bloke climbed out or was pulled out by his mates) where he was branded as a drunken fool or similar ( https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/25/drunk-swimming-a-growing-danger-in-the-lake-district) but in the event if a fatality such reporting doesn’t occur. Makes me think (tangentially) of the reporting guidelines for road incidents involving people riding bikes where it needs to be a little bit more objective.
@trailrat you’d think given that’s a ten minute walk from ours we’d have got in the water there. Will give it a go (when the rain stops).
Poly, spot on, I think it’s the wee concrete structure at a layby just south of ardlui station?.
mmm..., do you mean at Ardlui marina? I don't think so. The rescue boat described it as Rhuba Ban near I Vow - they'd have said Ardlui if it was there. The police described it as "near pulpit rock". Rhuba Ban is the name of the "spit" that sticks out of the west shore between I Vow and Pulpit Rock.
Naw, I mean the wee spit, never stopped at it, just thought it looked concrete.