[Closed] summer rugby

* me Horwill cleared!!

zokes - Member
I'm assuming that was sarcastic...

The IRB should never be taking sides against their independent judge's decision.
IMO, at the time, it was a worthy citing.
But once he's found not guilty, then he's not guilty. Move on.

The IRB are the last people that should be trying to force a specific outcome.
It's never happened before, and should never happen again.
You don't keep re-trying him 'till you get a judge that does your bidding.
It calls into question the independence of the whole citing procedure.

With it being the final test before a summer off, I'm sure the players can look after themselves, even without Big Jim.
Beat the best they've got, no excuses.
But an unprecedented attempt to get their captain and best player banned for the critical game is a sneaky, desperate, cowardly tactic that reeks of G**.

Forget being Scottish, Jim would never have been picked being Glaws captain. Seriously though, he was injured at the end of the season and could well have been in with a shout.

He was just getting in first before the next bit of dirty Irish play.

But once he's found not guilty, then he's not guilty. Move on.

Quite incorrect I'm afraid. There is video evidence of him stamping on AWJ's face. Seeing as he did it, he's guilty. The curious trend of citing panels choosing not to punish clear offences against touring Lions players doesn't absolve him of the guilt.

But an unprecedented attempt to get their captain and best player banned for the critical game is a sneaky, desperate, cowardly tactic that reeks of G****

Their captain and best player stamped on another player's head. There is video evidence, that evidence is quite clear an unequivocal. Seeking to get him punished officially, rather than inciting possibly worse retribution on the pitch is precisely what the sport's governing body should be aiming to do.

It's not a "trend", it's a tradition 😀

Zokes,
I'm afraid you're trying to have last weeks argument.
Where were you when it was relevant?
😉

Where were you when it was relevant?

Finishing end of financial year client reports, which took pretty much every waking moment (and probably most of my dreams too).

However, it is clearly still relevant. The tour has one match remaining, and the stamping and Horwell are in the news today. Therefore it seems to be a current point of discussion, as other contributors have noted. Try again.

I don't believe it to be a fair outcome, but it's what we have got.
I'm more inclined to agree with Loum here. The powers that be have spoken, nothing we can do bout it now. If we can't beat the aussies strongest team, it's a bit hollow [i]if[/i] we do win.
If we are to win, the coaching team needs to be more bold in their selection and tictacs IMHO. We could come very unstuck if we carry on punching it around the fringes trying to draw penalties. We need to unleash the beasts. Inflict maximum carnage. We have massive assets in Roberts and Tuilagi, who are both looking to be fit this week. ****ING USE THEM!

But an unprecedented attempt to get their captain and best player banned for the critical game is a sneaky, desperate, cowardly tactic that reeks of G*****.

I knew it would be that ****ers fault somehow!!!

Genuinely shocked that you're not blaming Vunipola!
😉

The real disgrace was the original verdict clearing him, the fact is the second hearing isn't a complete fresh review of the evidence. As I posted IMO it was a cynical and deliberate stamp, opposite side to ref, making a specific line to the point where AWJ was, one stamp so as to claim accidental.

Hopefully this will fire up the Lions and our support. Let's rub their faces in it by winning anyway

A backline of Roberts, Tuilagi, North 1/2p and Cuthbert with BOD and JD on the bench?

Yes, that'll do it.....

Loum..... 😆

Horwill guilty, bad decision

BOD will captain I think

back row I think he will start with croft.

Gray for second row

A bloke whose kids I teach (who is a rugby coach for a local teams) reckons Lydiate Croft Faletau at 6 7 8....then again he is Welsh 🙂

British and Irish Lions: Leigh Halfpenny (Wales), Tommy Bowe (Ireland), Jonathan Davies (Wales), Jamie Roberts (Wales), George North (Wales), Jonathan Sexton (Ireland), Mike Phillips (Wales); Alex Corbisiero (England), Richard Hibbard (Wales), Adam Jones (Wales), Alun Wyn Jones (captain, Wales), Geoff Parling (England), Dan Lydiate (Wales), Sean O'Brien (Ireland), Toby Faletau (Wales)
Replacements: Tom Youngs (England), Mako Vunipola (England), Dan Cole (England), Richie Gray (Scotland), Justin Tipuric (Wales), Conor Murray (Ireland), Owen Farrell (England), Manu Tuilagi (England)

AWJ capt, no BOD at all. It's certainly bold. Think hibbard is a mistake though. Looks like Manu is going to get a run at them 😀

I've not really thought too much about Gatlands selections but this one appears barking mad.

Does he just put the names in a hat, or hold his finger in the air and then decide?

wrecker - Member

It's certainly bold.

Well that's one way of describing it. 😯

Gatland's thinking appears to have been as muddled as SCW's in NZ 2005.

The worst thing for this Lions' tour was Wales thrashing England at the end of the 6N. Gatty picked his squad based entirely on that one (terrific) performance by Wales and forgot the previous 12 months of rugby altogether.

I'm not anti-Welsh. I love Welsh rugby - along with NZ they're a proper rugby nation.

However, taking a whole bunch of Welshmen used to losing to SH opposition and then picking most of them for the tests hasn't been the brightest of ideas.

I'm actually pleased that I won't be able to see this now, I'm astonished by this selection (not in a good way!).
Sadly, I can't help but think that the Welsh team isn't the right one to beat the Aussies, and history does kind of back this up.

Ok backs - any "real" surprises there? Possibly BOD but apart from great tackling stats he looked the (v slightly) spent force that I feared all along so far in the tour. Then the debate on Phillips. Otherwise, pretty much the consensus team with Manu the 2H hit man.

Forwards - non of the hookers have impressed so best of an average bunch. Props picked themselves according to most pundits. Ok minor Grey v Parling debate but that is the 2H sub again. And anyone's guess re the permutations in the back row.

So can't see much room for selection angst personally. The question will be who among that lot (or any of the subs) will rove themselves as the ultimate match winner?

First time the bench has looked like it can make a real impact Vunipola, Tipuric, Grey, Tuilagi lets hope they are still in the game if/when they get on.

Oi Warren!

You forgot about Cuthbert

Who? 😉

I hope this is the team to do it.

A very proud moment for AWJ and after all the stamping debacle he has a wonderful opportunity to rub Howell's nose in it.

BOD being out of the 23 is harsh on such a player but the fact is he hasn't performed to a high enough level and Manu brings more impact off of the bench.

Falatau, I wish him the very best, its a massive step up for him I hope he can handle it.

I'm glad to see Phillips back, lets hope his first test performance was due to a dodgy knee.

Hibbard is mistake as per @Webber's comments, his line-out throwing has been poor. I think the Aussie's will fancy their chances of disrupting us there. IMO our lost throw at the end of the second test was a key element of our defeat.

I almost agree jambalaya (did you get my email BTW?) but Youngs throwing in was also pretty dire. Hibbs is a better scrummager but they are both line out liabilities IMO. 50/50 call IMO.

From the BBC story - Gatland said it was the first time a coach had dropped O'Driscoll in "15 years of rugby".

Has Gatland done this just to say he has? Think BOD will be a big loss in defence, particularly with Poite as referee BODs breakdown skills would have been of benefit and more so with Warbuton out

He forget the other half of the nationality switch at centre. Should have done the opposite at half back ( and I am a MP fan normally) and gone Murray and Sexton to start.

Davies and Roberts will combine for breakthrough 1h score and Manu will do the same in 72nd minute. Gatts will ( undeservedly ? ) be crowned a hero! But I can take that as it happened in the 6N as well!!!!

A very proud moment for AWJ and after all the stamping debacle he has a wonderful opportunity to rub [s]Howell[/s] Horwill's nose in it.

^^This!^^

I said to my father some four years ago that AWJ would be captain of the Lions on this tour. I was right! (Sort of!)

Gatland has turned into Jeremy Clarkson. POWER is the only way it would seem. Kind of nervous. Will actually be able to watch this test having missed the 2 before working.

Wish em luck but off to look at the bookies odds for an oz win as I can see them having too much skill versus the bash plan that Gatland has put us on a collision course with.

Bruk you have hit the nail on the head. It's a team picked for power over skill. I hope it is enough to beat the ozzies but I really doubt it.

For this type of game I can understand dropping BOD, but without him and Warbs they will struggle even more at the breakdown. It's also a liability starting Riberts given that he has played very little rugby.

Maybe Gats wants to be known as the coach who give BOD his first cap and also the first to drop him?

Bizarre decision for a myriad of reasons. Those who agree with it don't surprise me in the least.

O'driscolls experience and efforts at breakdown would have been invaluable. Besides which what exactly has jonathan davies done to retain his position, albeit shifted out one? Agreed with above in that murray should start and philips on the bench.

What exactly did croft do wrong coming off the bench to warrant being replaced by tipuric?

Welsh history against the Aussies....and he's basically picked Wales.

Dec 12 Home Lost 14-12
June 12 Away Lost 20-19
June 12 Away Lost 25-23
June 12 Away Lost 27-19
Dec 11 Home Lost 24-18
Oct 11 World Cup in NZ Lost 21-18
Nov 10 Home Lost 25-16
Nov 09 Home Lost 33-12
Nov 08 Home WON 21-18
Sept 07 Home Lost 32-20
June 07 Away Lost 31-0
May 07 Away Lost 29-23

Aus v Wales in one of the most closely fought away series in 10 years is pretty irrelevant now. If Gats should be picking players on form in the last 12 months I can think of several non-welsh players who should not have started the first two tests. Fair to say he is not picking on setiment, and the likes of Heslip, BOD and Croft have had a chance without having awesome games and the backrow options chosen have deserved their chance. As has Corbs. We can all debate the odd selection but overall I can't see how anyone can be shaking their head at what is a reasonably balanced test squad. Those moaning about it being a power team, would no doubt want O'Connell in the second row if fit and how would you have changed the (loosing) second test team to accommodate more perceived skill over brawn?

As regards Davies didn't BOD describe his last performance in his chosen position as one of the best he'd ever seen or something?

good points scamper!

deadlydarcy - Member
Those who agree with it don't surprise me in the least.

Meaning?

Meaning?

Over beers with an Irish friend a few months ago, I dared to suggest that BOD was losing his pace, and that despite his simply stellar career to date, his star was fading. I then opined that there were other, better centres out there in the world game today, in my opinion.

I may as well have said that his mother was a 'working lady' who gave away many, many free trials, given the reaction.

😉 CFH !!

and he's basically picked Wales.

Quite. At least AA can't blame the English if the Lions lose. 😉

I sincerely hope they don't, which is why I'll be cheering for [s]Wales [/s]the Lions on Saturday.

It seems like a very well balanced team compared to the previous tests and given how the Lions pack were knocked around after the first 20 or so minutes last test surely that says you need a bit more power up front? The changes made were 50/50 as others have said and this Test selection actually seems to have a well thought out group of subs too.

As for the backs, well they haven't really featured for either side (especially in the last test). Manu is not especially organised in defense so it doesn't make much sense to start him- coming on in the 2nd half for impact does. Likewise with Murray. He is the 9 I would most like to see play but Phillips will not lose you the game when it is tight and physical in the first half even if he may not win it either. Murray coming on later when things have settled down makes a lot of sense too. All this talk of BOD at the breakdown is correct to an extent but then he has been one of the worst to adapt to refs interpretations and given away most penalties. Most people would agree that the hard running of Roberts should get them over the gain line more and little Jiffy has been outstanding this tour with his all round play (clearing out rucks, cutting off the wide Aus attacks coming up so quickly, offering a left footed option to clear the lines, turning over ball- lots of little subtleties which are valuable).

It isn't necessarily an exciting, risky selection but I feel it is well balanced. The build up games showed some more exciting combinations but then these same combinations were shown up defensively which you can't afford at this level. The selectors really can't please everyone- lets just hope the Lions win at the weekend!

Not really too much to complain about unless you look at the nationalities of each player and have some bee in your bonnet about that 😀

Can't argue with the fact its a team with the most welsh since 1888 or something and would have been more if our Captain was fit who some on here would begrudgingly admit has been arguably our best player over 2 tests. 😀

Think i'm on record as saying before the tour team was announced i'd hope several `unheralded' English players would be putting their hands up for test spots - and that has certainly happened if you agree with the selections or not.

Could it be possible the best players to make up the best Test team happen to have one majority nationality? No, no, no, crazy talk! Must be the Welshman from NZ's fault instead 😀

Over beers with an Irish friend a few months ago...

Very insightful.

🙂
😉

😆 He's a Blackrock boy as well, DD...!

Balanced?
It's a team of boshers. There is no finesse; Bowe and 1/2p aside. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not balanced.
As for warbs being the best player over two tests? Not a chance in hell. A reasoned argument for that doesn't exist particularly when he was so poor in the first test.
Gats has simply chosen the most defensive team he possibly could.

What is your balanced/ finesse match day squad Wrecker?

A genuine question as I don't think the other options add enough gain to counter the potential losses as a team. The more risky (?), exciting options are on the bench (Manu/ Tipuric/ Murray/ Gray/ Cole) to make for an exciting finish from a a solid start.

I would say the bench selection is looking pretty good too unlike the previous tests which was solid to be replaced with solid. At least this bench has attacking potential too

Phillips and Hibbard are the two that I'm surprised at....Youngs and Murray for me.

Personally I'd have gone SOB Tips and Toby in the back row too.

The reason I won't question gats stuff too hard is because of the bench. There are some potential game changers on there as danw says. Croft would be on there for me though.
My main hope is that mikey plays well. If he can get quick ball to sexton, we might see some good rugby. We've not had any penetration so far, without line breaks coming from people other than north I think we're ****ed.
I will probably get flamed for this, but i think danny care would have been a real asset to this team. Mind you, I bet we've all got a countryman that we feel aggrieved because they didn't tour.
I would be making half time substitutions, not 60-70 minutes.

Gotama - Member
... Agreed with above in that murray should start and philips on the bench...
Welsh history against the Aussies....and he's basically picked Wales.

Dec 12 Home Lost 14-12
June 12 Away Lost 20-19
June 12 Away Lost 25-23
June 12 Away Lost 27-19
Dec 11 Home Lost 24-18
Oct 11 World Cup in NZ Lost 21-18
Nov 10 Home Lost 25-16
Nov 09 Home Lost 33-12
[b]Nov 08 Home WON 21-18[/b]
Sept 07 Home Lost 32-20
June 07 Away Lost 31-0
May 07 Away Lost 29-23

Just wanted to add one detail to Gotama's post.
That Nov 08 result was the game when Wales they played Cooper, not Phillips, at 9.

Good "solid start" from him in the first test too, DanW?

Wrecker,
Slightly disagree with you claiming halfpee's finesse.
Goalkicking -yes.
But in open play he's got the rugby brain of a bosher, just lacks the size.
A sort of "Mini-bosh", or Half-boshey

Agree about Danny Care , though. Said something similar months back, that Oz pitches and style should suit him.

Not quite a countryman, but for me, the player they needed more than most was the Richardt Strauss, Leinster hooker and darts champion. If he had no intention of ever playing Rory Best, then he should have taken a chance on someone else. Strange, but we've missed the naughty kiwi.

The counter to the argument boshers don't work would be to ask how did Scotland beat Aus? A pointless argument I'll admit 😀 Nevertheless, I don't think the NH have the guile to out-guile (or out-finesse) Aus so why try to beat them at their own game?

With 1/2p the way he plays (or is coached to play) is almost exclusively defensively- he covers a massive amount of ground to free up more players in the team for other duties.

Euan Murray beat Oz that day.
But being Scottish, it's not an available option.

1/2p is capable of some blinding line breaking runs. I don't think he tries to go through every time, he has the pace to go around. We need to split the ****ers open and turn their heads. Get them running towards their line, not away from it.

Being a bosher and having skill are not mutually exclusive, North is a big hard hitting lad but there is plenty of skill in the way he plays.

There are very few players who have really hit top form and nailed down their place on this tour. When you think of the fit players who have nailed down their places a lot happen to be welsh: 1/2p, North, Jonesx2 (Roberts maybe). Of the remaining fit players I would suggest only Corbs and Sexton are nailed on. That’s 4/5 welsh 1 Irish 1 English. The rest of the places are up for grabs because the test performances have not been good enough, there can be no complaints.

Looks like a lineout disaster waiting to happen. Centre pairing understandable given injuries prevented new partnerships to build. Backrow choice has been muddled all tour..

if lions wins genius decision

if they lose ......oh dear

AA fair summary but would have kept BOD and Roberts, better blend, chance of playing the ball wide

Philips if fit was first choice

Corebsario again first choice

backrow as AA says muddled

[img] [/img]

Not quite so new, it's been out for a few days now 😛

zokes - Member

Not quite so new, it's been out for a few days now

Yeah I know.

Thought I'd just try and lighten the mood of doom and gloom on here. 😉

Thought I'd just try and lighten the mood of doom and gloom on here.

I'm cheery enough. If it all goes TU, even AA would struggle to blame the English 😆

Personally I'm looking forward to having North and 1/2p on my side for the last time in four years!

Its not often I agree with Campo but he's got a point.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/lions-tour/campese-questions-tourists-approach-as-aussies-turn-to-smith-29394423.html

To a certain extent I think we went into our shell a bit in the second Test, especially at 15-9 up. We could have kicked on and finished it off then.

I have read a lot of rubbish about momentum shifts but I don't buy into that.

As much as it is a Test series, they are all one-off games and we are confident we can still do it.

I think Adam Jones' assesment is right on the mark. In both tests the lions have built a decent lead and then i think they have all started to think about the clock. Same again on Saturday but play to the end and finish it off. Starting to get squeaky bum again already!

Blindmelon - I clicked on your link and got this

http://www.independent.ie/woman/fashion/jourdan-dunns-breasts-hinder-couture-catwalk-dreams-29392427.html 😯

Rumbled

Let me guess Campo is critical of the lions not playing expansive runnning rugby? I suppose it worked against ingland in the 92?!? World cup final. Dont think Roberts and Davues are as easily swayed as Carling and Guscott were.

Actually it is normally wise to ignore Campo and he is a wind up merchant at the best of times. Yes, '92 was the perfect example of a spoof and England fell for it hook, line and sinker. But in this case, he is a bit closer to the truth IMO.

We need to get across the gain line and play some rugby without going OTT. As an Englishman, it feels too much like watching England on a bad day. I want to see some of the Irish/Wales back line flair. Taking the ball at speed etc. At the moment, is is looking too predictable. BOD used to provide this with great angles, support and off loads, but I think he has lost this edge and hence the need to change.

Australia team: Kurtley Beale (Melbourne Rebels), Israel Folau (NSW), Adam Ashley-Cooper (NSW), Christian Leali'ifano (ACT Brumbies), Joe Tomane (Brumbies), James O'Connor (Melbourne Rebels), Will Genia (Reds); Benn Robinson (NSW), Stephen Moore (ACT), Ben Alexander (ACT), James Horwill (Reds - capt), Kane Douglas (NSW), Ben Mowen (ACT), George Smith (Brumbies), Wycliff Palu (NSW).

Replacements: Saia Fainga'a (Reds), James Slipper (Reds), Sekope Kepu (NSW), Rob Simmons (Reds), Ben McCalman (Western Force), Michael Hooper (NSW), Nick Phipps (Rebels), Jesse Mogg (Brumbies).

Looks remarkabley like Hooper is covering centre again 🙂
Guess they saw Davies there and figured he won that one last time. 😉

What is Deans thinking! Settled starting team with only one change to the previous match and that is to bring in a 30+yr old rugby legend.

Deans for Lions 2017? 😀

It is a clear anti-Gatland stance 😀

Lions get rid of a legend so Aus bring one in 😀

A timely reworking of an old classic...

Muke - Member
An appropriate working of an old classic...

Bloody groundhog day in here

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/summer-rugby/page/38#post-5125057

I looked back a couple of pages b4 posting as well 😳

Been away all week on field trip. I presume everyones piss has been boiling at a suitable temperature? At least you can all blame Gatland and the welsh if it goes wrong!

No, I've come to like it. Can't find who to quote, but if the Lions win, we can all rejoice. If Australia win, we can blame the welsh. Seems like a win win to me.

AA, all calm on here but more concerned that Murray may revert to being Scottish and Gatts a Kiwi (rather than honory Brit) at this rate. But hope neither is the case!!!!

Tense already. Fingers crossed for a lineout.

Adam jones comments on his test team mates.

Jamie roberts is a classic 🙂

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/23197555

Fatrick Swazye 🙂

Still don't get the BOD dropping. The Aussie's hold him in great esteem and all the backs will and at least one loose forward will have half an eye on him for as long as he's on the pitch. Hibbard for hooker better bosher but maybe not as mobile, as much as I hate to say it Cole should be on.

Cole? Three props?

Cole rather than Adam? You are crazy. Cole has had one good 20mins and one crap 20mins. Adam has been outstanding throughout.

in case anyone is unable to go to the pub or have sky
http://cricfree.tv/sky-sports-1-live-stream-online.php

I think he's got cole confused with youngs.

so gatland justified then 🙂