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We just gave our old car to a family member. It's been a great car, and had a pretty easy life - lately it's done about 4k miles a year, mostly motorway, and been serviced at a good garage every year. It never broke down in our 8 years of ownership.
The family member lives out in the country, and is always trashing cars on the local crappy roads - popped tyres, broken suspension etc. She texted today to say the brakes failed and she had to throw the car in a ditch to avoid a collision! She's only had it 5 days!
Apparently she's fine, and the car might not be too badly damaged. But she's got 3 kids - this could have been so so bad.
I'm horrified we might have unwittingly given her a death trap. Also concerned that it could otherwise have happened to MrsDoris who drives up the M4 once a week to work.
Can brakes just fail with no warning? It's always been fine. Could I have done anything? Help assuage my guilt because I could puke with stress right now.
Or did she miss the brake pedal with her foot, mash the clutch or the accelerator a few times and then dump it in a ditch?
Very unlikely. Brakes have 2 circuits so even if one fails the other will still function. Of course you will have a completely different pedal feel if this happens and you'd have to press much harder to stop. Another thing that can happen is pad material can suddenly simply part company with the backing plate meaning the pedal suddenly gives way under you foot and you may have to pump the brakes to get braking power to return. Happened to me last year. Of course, it may have just been muddy/icy on the road and the ABS went into overdrive and didn't actually allow the car to slow down. Had that happen too.
Basically though none of those things can be thrown back at you. So stop your worrying
Wow, how horrible for her. I've never had a total failure with no warning but that doesn't mean it can't happen.
Reassurance from the interwebs:
It is reassuring to note that most cars built since the early 1990's have 'dual circuit' brakes which will still work on at least two wheels in the event of a hydraulic system failure. Dual-circuit brake systems are a safety feature that effectively incorporates two separate hydraulic systems, if one fails the other still operates.
Would guess that there may have been some warning - but as it's a new car to her she might not have noticed the signs, may have just assumed it was how it drove. Might be worth asking if the handbrake light had come on, that could be an indicator of low brake fluid.
Obvious answer is a leak of the brake fluid, the level drops until it sucks an air bubble into the pedal cylinder and you've got no brakes. Modern cars have split brakes with separate circuits so if one wheel cylinder or brake line fails, then you've got at least 2 other working wheels. So immediate failures of calipers etc are less likely.
Or........
It was f****** cold this morning, she hit some frost/ice, and blaming the brakes is an easy way to save face at your expense.
Or the floormat rolled up over the accelerator
Or the brakes were just not as good as her previous car. Even on a good day I'd rate my recently driven cars as:
Berlingo - genuinely terrifying on several occasions
Fiesta - they do the job
Golf - very good
C-max - I'd changed them all for a mix of Brembo and EBC greenstuff parts, it stopped like it had hit a wall!
I’m horrified we might have unwittingly given her a death trap.
Clue there is "unwittingly." If you'd sold it knowing it was faulty, then you can be horrified.
The scenario as presented sounds wildly implausible to me. More like she overcooked a corner and shat herself when suddenly presented with an oncoming Range Rover.
I've had the servo fail which means the relationship between pedal pressure and deceleration suddenly changes for the worse. The car still slowed down but I had to push way harder on the pedal.
The diaphragm in the servo can split, particularly if it's been contaminated with oil. IIRC there was a recall on early (BMW) Minis for the vacuum pump failing and leaking oil into the servo. You won't loose the brakes, but the pedal will suddenly go very hard and really need jumping on to slow down.
As above, though, everything made since the 70s should have dual circuit brakes, so catastrophic loss of fluid should leave you with some brakes.
ETA: Too slow, what thepurist said!
once it's pulled out of a ditch it'll be easy to see if the brakes have failed, by applying them, but no. they don't just fail.
The one time I did have brake failure is driving an auto rental car - unbenounced to me my mate had popped the handbrake on, and I never use the handbrake in an auto (I just shove it in park). There was no warning light (old banger), so I just drove it for a while, handbrake on a bit, until the rear brakes cooked themselves, boiling the fluid on both sides and meaning the pedal went straight to the floor. On the way into a hairpin. Fortunately a bit of pumping and sudden application of 2nd gear dropped speed enough to get me round, got it stopped and then figured out what had happened
Strange all her previous cars got trashed, and now this one too?
The more I think about this,
"I had to throw it in a ditch," bollocks she did. Catastrophic failure with no warning lights on the dash? Did the handbrake fail also (difficult to have presence of mind in a crisis but preferable to deliberately rather than ineptly driving off the road).
I've done it on a motorbike, I was pulled out on by a motorist and after rapidly running out of sensible options I averted a collision by making a snap decision to drop the bike. But that's surely a fringe case.
Can be all sorts of things. I had a bushing replaced on a squeaky clutch pedal. The mechanics left out a spacer when reassembling (I found it later under the seat) which meant the bolt holding the pedal would slowly undo itself with each press of the pedal and wiggle out of position until it lodges itself behind the brake pedal and prevents it from moving.
Found this out as I went sailing through the red lights at the roundabout at the end of the M8. Would have been a bit more exciting if there had been other traffic stopped there.
Catastrophic failure with no warning lights on the dash?
Lots of ways the brakes can be prevented from working that wouldn't bring up a light. The warning lights relate to the presence or absence of fluid or some cars will display pad wear. The hydraulics are operated by a mechanical pedal though so if something blocks the action of that, or a linkage fails or whatever then a light isn't going to show that
Did the handbrake fail also
How quickly do you imagine you can stop a car with just the handbrake?
Hugely unlikely the brakes failed.
Much more likely it's a lie in an attempt to cover up something she did.
I don't see that you have any reason to feel guilty about anything.
Get the car checked over - that will enable you to know what really happened and then put her lie to bed.
I had what felt like a total brake failure on my Dad's 1985 Volvo 340. Brake hose had split as I came off the M1 and luckily it was an uphill slip road. Crapped myself.
Sudden zero brakes is highly unlikely. Especially if they were 'working fine' I'd like to say nigh on impossible, but that might be pushing it a bit.
always trashing cars on the local crappy roads – popped tyres, broken suspension etc.
Sounds lilke a complete lack of mechanical sympathy to me... if she's not used to the 'feel' of that particular car, is it possible she stomped on the brakes, the ABS kicked in, and due to that she assumed the brakes were faulty, as the ABS could give an unaware driver the sudden sensation of losing some braking power?
How quickly do you imagine you can stop a car with just the handbrake?
I've no idea in a modern vehicle, my experience of handbrake action was in my teens and 20s when I was young and stupid. Well, more stupid.
I reckon I'd try though, along with dropping gears for engine braking, before concluding that hurling it into a ditch was my best course of action.
This is going to be one of Those Threads, isn't it.
always trashing cars
It sounds like she’s trashed another one. Therapy might help. Or perhaps driving lessons if it’s not a behavioural issue.
Had a total electrical failure in a Peugeot van that resulted in the steering and brakes needing real effort to move them - it was pitch black on an unlit singletrack road and at one point I didn’t realise I was rolling downhill and about to hit a large rock, had to stand on the brakes and just stopped in time.
If the car hasn’t been used much, the friction material can rust where it joins the back plate of the brake pad and completely drop off when you brake.
Happened to my lad a few weeks ago in Sheffield, he went through some red lights. When he pumped the brake again they started working again as the metal back contacted the disk.
This is going to be one of Those Threads, isn’t it.
Yep, I'd say pure speculation, but given the anecdotal evidence that she's a terrible driver anyway, I know which I way I would bet if I were to put some money on it!
As said above, she's always trashing cars.
I do a lot of mixed driving. Lots of rural roads I don't know at night (looking for railway🫣 access gates) . I drive down railway access tracks that make the Somme look smooth. I'm yet to trash my work van.
I say a complete lack of mechanical sympathy and piss poor driving (I obviously don't know your relation or how much they can elaborate and bend the truth)
Strange all her previous cars got trashed, and now this one too?
^ so this.
the friction material can rust where it joins the back plate of the brake pad and completely drop off when you brake.
If you are talking about de-lamination of the pad material from the metal back part of the brake pad, I mean it's possible if the are very old pads, but it's very unlikely, especially for both fronts to fail at once.
The one way I can think you could have total brake failure is if the linkage between the pedal and the master cylinder/ servo was disrupted.
Not very likely.
TBF her brother also trashed a car last week, same area, snapping something or other in a massive pothole! So it's not that she's a uniquely bad driver at least.
Thanks for the general insight tho, didn't know cars had 2 brake circuits.
It could well have been icy or muddy - in fact I think Welshfarmer is nearby, sort of Monmouth region.
Seals in the master cylinder?
Had this happen on my old 205 GTi years ago.
Was out for a drive on a sunny (world cup) evening with next to no traffic.
Came up to an island at 'around' 40mph, put foot on brakes and pedal went to the floor - lucky no traffic so engine braking and a couple of down shifts sorted that....
Drove home using gears & handbrake.
Stripped the MC off the car and the seals had gone. Annoyingly they didn't do rebuild/seal kits for the MC so had to fit a new one....
TBF her brother also trashed a car last week, snapping something or other in a massive pothole! So it’s not that she’s a uniquely bad driver at least.
Must be something in the water, or is that Vino tinto?
Yeah I'm not buying that. Classic case of blame the easiest person that isn't yourself in order to save embarrassment. I guarantee she does that with other things too. I used to know someone that immediately would jump to blame someone else if they spilled a glass of water exclaiming that the nearest person was to blame because they gave them a fright or moved something in their eyeline.
Had total brake failure on my first car , an S reg mini with my mates pregnant wife beside me . Options were ...
1. Run into the back of the Scimitar GTE in front or ..
2. Into the field through the fence.
I paid to have the fence repaired.
^ so this.
Some people just seem to have repeated bad luck when they’re driving. 🙄
I was driving the previous generation Skoda Octavia and I had the brakes suddenly kind of fail with absolutely no warning. I was driving in France and approaching a duel carriage way off a national speed limit section, hit the brakes and probably had 10% of normally braking performance. Had a make a snap decision between flooring it or hoping I would stop for the junction. If it had been rush hour not late evening..... Very, very scary
I speak fairly good French but not fluent and certainly not technical terms, I believe the garage said it was a failure of the master cylinder
once it’s pulled out of a ditch it’ll be easy to see if the brakes have failed, by applying them, but no. they don’t just fail.
retired traffic cop told me that about half the cars he has been to that ended up off the road / in a field the driver said had experienced some sort of sudden mechanical failure. In 20 yrs in traffic not one of them seemed to still have the fault after it was back on the road ;-). Seems even less likely given it had been pretty well looked after previously!
Happened to me once in a 1999 Defender. Coming to the end of a long dirt road in the Northern Territory about to slow down to join the Kakadu Highway pedal went to the floor. Fortunately there were no other vehicles. The brake pipe had fractured at a union.
It wa Friday afternoon and I then had to drive 100km to the nearest town with no brakes to get to the only mechanic before they shut for the weekend, remove the broken section so they could replicate it. Then I had to fit it in the campsite.
That was the result of rough corrugated dirt roads. I also broke a wheel stud, speedo and had a terminal rattle off the battery due to those roads.
Seals in the master cylinder?
this happened to me on my Alfa 105 Junior, luckily at very low speed. I had just left my aunt’s house and drove to the T-junction at the end of her road. Foot straight to the floor. Anxious pumping and application of the handbrake stopped me in time. And even though the car was built in the 70’s it did have dual circuit brakes. Dirt had got behind the seals and scored the bore of the master cylinder, a common problem with the car I found out after the event.
If you are talking about de-lamination of the pad material from the metal back part of the brake pad, I mean it’s possible if the are very old pads, but it’s very unlikely, especially for both fronts to fail at once.
I know it’s possible as it happened to some 25 month old Pagid pads. It only needs to happen to one side, you temporarily lose all braking as the fluid needs to push through on the next pedal depression to make up the gap. Like when you change pads on your bike and have to pump the lever a few times if you don’t use a bleed block.
this happened to me on my Alfa 105 Junior
That's because it's an alpha, they are made out of spit and double sided sellotape 🙂
Wait till it's recovered, bet there is nothing wrong with the brakes.
Brakes absolutely fine for 8 years then fails 5 days into new ownership. I call BS. Driver error, ice whatever.
I’m sure her insurance company will check the brakes and take the appropriate action.
Bet she was pissing around with her phone and a car has come round a corner and she's binned it.
Or she was late leaving for the school run because she was pissing around on the phone and left late so was speeding, then ran out of talent at an inopportune moment and sent it ditch finding.
Some people seem to have a run of bad luck that follows them from car to car. She's one of them people.
How quickly do you imagine you can stop a car with just the handbrake?
the parking brake needs to have 15% efficiency to pass the mot, and the normal brakes 50%. So approximately 1/3 of the power is what the MOT folks think.
I’m sure her insurance company will check the brakes and take the appropriate action.
I doubt it, they wil just pay out as a fault claim, and bump the premium up on renewal.
My old Focus popped a brake line flexi with no warning. Turns out the dual circuit brakes need you to force the pedal into the floor to work, I pumped the brakes and sailed on…
The handbrake on that car was odd, held on like a limpet when stationary, almost imperceptible effect if moving, yet legitimately passed the MOT each year.
retired traffic cop told me that about half the cars he has been to that ended up off the road / in a field the driver said had experienced some sort of sudden mechanical failure. In 20 yrs in traffic not one of them seemed to still have the fault after it was back on the road ;-). Seems even less likely given it had been pretty well looked after previously!
Funnily enough, that's my experience working in the motor trade for over 20 years.
Best was the lorry driver who rear ended a 4x4 and trailer, saying the brakes failed. He (un)surprisingly had found a new job by the time the lorry was repaired, and the 6 flat spotted tyres were noted on it's inspection before it went back on the road.
I've only ever seen one vehicle with complete brake failure, and that was due to a seized master cylinder. However the driver had kept driving it knowing the brakes were overheating, until both circuits had failed due to calipers overheating to the point the seals failed.
There are very few things that would cause complete brake failure on a modern vehicle. However should one circuit develop a problem, the pedal sinking further combined with the reduced and unbalanced braking, will often give the impression of complete brake failure. When you expect the braking point to be near the top of the travel, and it's now nearly on the floor, the sudden change will cause panic in most drivers.
Other than offering your family member some additional driving lessons, I'm not sure you could have done anything different.
Dual circuit brakes - very unlikely to have a complete braking failure.
5 days into new ownership of car that's been reliable for the past several years.
New owner "is always trashing cars on the local crappy roads – popped tyres, broken suspension etc."
I doubt it was the car that was the problem here.
As other have suggested - an inspection / test of the car (depending on how damaged / driveable it is) should help here.
The handbrake on that car was odd, held on like a limpet when stationary, almost imperceptible effect if moving, yet legitimately passed the MOT each year.
Parking brake only needs to reach 16% efficiency (or lock below the 16%) to pass an MOT on a dual circuit system, which when combined with relatively little weight on the rear, means it's really not going to stop you any time soon.
So it’s looking like the problem is somewhere between the steering wheel and the seat.
I call that sticky 🐂 💩
Can brakes just fail with no warning? It’s always been fine.
Yes, it bloody well can, and it happened to my mates Metro with me as passenger while we were on our way back home from Bristol! We were heading east on the A420, coming up to the Pennsylvania junction at Cold Ashton where the road crosses the A46 carrying traffic from Bath to the M4 at the Tormarton junction. At around 6pm, that’s a busy road, and as my mate started to slow up for what was then a roundabout, he put his foot on the brake to change down and the brakes didn’t work; we’d just driven out of the centre of Bristol without a sign of a problem. He yanked on the hand brake and kept changing down, and we managed to get around into a lay-by right on the left exit of the roundabout. Much flashing of lights and blowing of horns, but thankfully no collisions.
That was a very scary situation that I’m in no hurry to experience again. It took sodding ages for the AA to turn up to pick us and the car up - thankfully I have coverage as part of my bank account - I was offered it and accepted it, on a ‘just in case, you never know’ basis.
happened to my mates Metro
There's a reason you don't see many metros on the road these days.
I had complete brake failure once when borrowing my parents’ car some time around 1995 but car was low end metro probably pre 1990 model so maybe systems have improved. Pedal went to the floor with little resistance and car kept going. Luckily I had the presence of mind to pump the pedal hard and after a few goes it screeched to a halt just about at the traffic light. Also it was early Sunday morning with no traffic. I abandoned my planned trip and drove home gently, the problem didn’t recur and no fault was found. I assume some problem with fluid as can happen on MTB brakes though at the time I had no experience of those.
I had a passenger who witnessed this, I wasn’t a very experienced driver but certainly wasn’t pressing wrong pedal etc.
I’d also be sceptical if someone who regularly crashed cars did it just after getting a new (to them) one. But it really did happen to me.
deleted
What car is it?
Steel lines can corrode and pop that would cause the pedal to drop.
But if you get in the car and the pedals ok..... I'd say 100% driver error.
Also if icy abs wont decrease stopping distances it can increase them.
Seems to me it's likely this was a problem with the nut holding the wheel.
I doubt it, they wil just pay out as a fault claim, and bump the premium up on renewal.
And the OPs relative will be texting again, to try and get them to pay the difference!
always trashing cars on the local crappy roads – popped tyres, broken suspension
oh so she’s a shit driver then ?
If roads are bad you slow down to a safe speed not just continue on until it causes significant damage to the vehicle. I think a change of driver is needed
I've been in a car that suffered complete brake failure, but it was over 25 years ago in my FiL's already ancient Renault 4. Hardly modern 🙂
The car was a write off, but fortunately there weren't any major injuries. I do (still!) feel sorry for the young French couple waiting at the roundabout that we hit, they were clearly on their way down to the Algarve/South coast, and I'm guessing we made a right mess of their holidays...
And FWIW i've never had "sudden brake failure" on a car that couldn't easily and quickly be attributed to how it was used or set up (prototypes with immature software or failed parts on test etc etc).
And that's several years of test and development driving, 10's of thousands of km a year on track and road, plus private mileage.
Best failure was a pin that dropped out of the brake linkage on a US spec Explorer. Which had a very early proto EPB system and an old 4 or 5 speed auto.
Enough transmission drag in neutral that it would keep moving... Only way to stop it was to pull the EPB (fun and abrupt), kill the engine (pain in the arse to restart) or drop it into P at ~2mph (abrupt and noisy)
Ended up doing a temp fix with a random purple bolt i found in my bag and a paperclip wrapped around the other end. Whilst lying on the road under the bloody thing at a set of traffic lights in the middle of Burton upon Trent... Then drove (carefully) to a proper garage to get a more suitable bolt.
There’s a reason you don’t see many metros on the road these days.
Because they stopped making them in the 1990s?
I wonder how many people posting "it happened to me!" anecdotes had it happen in a car built in the 21st Century rather than an Austin Allegro. I doubt it's many.
My 2001 fiat tempra turD treated me to brake failure . Rear cylinder seals failed at an inopportune moment.
Just to agree with what most people have said, it's very unlikely for modern car brakes to just fail completely. The master cylinder is actually two separate cylinders in line, with each supplying two wheels. It's not impossible that there was a mechanical failure at the pedal, but that is unlikely. Whatever the case, it's easy enough to check by seeing if the brakes work now.
One possibility is that, if the car has ABS and hits ice, the ABS will reduce the braking power to match the level of grip. In an extreme case of wet ice, it's possible that someone could confuse that with brake failure. Still seems much more likely that it's just a case of a lousy driver binning it and looking for an excuse.