[Closed] Subwoofer for 2ch Stereo System?

Maybe change to bigger floorstanders ? My brother had some Monitor Audio S6 and they were great. Reviews always criticised them for being too bass-heavy so they might just what you need.

http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/monolith-df_Plus.htm

or one of their other models if that's a bit spendy

http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers.htm

They all have high level inputs so you can drive them from a stereo amp as well as an AV amp.

REL always used to be the go to sub manufacturer....

A mate of mine used to have a fairly decent hi-fi set-up that he supplemented with a Kenwood sub. It wasn't exactly subtle but it certainly would wake the neighbours....

I've just googled your floorstanders and they look a bit 'delicate'. Could it just be that you need some floorstanders that are a bit more meaty.

My TDL RTL II's kick our a fair amount of low end if required & the KEF Coda 9's I had before those even more so....

I want a sub thats ideally designed for using in music reproduction

Another vote for REL subs if its for listening to music, I nearly bought one many years ago. I have a really old Kenwood sub that I re-foamed and it sounds much better than the floorstanders by themselves, when listening to DnB/Dubstep/etc. I too am a audiophile bass-head. 😉

Looks like most high end active subs have a built in adjustable lowpass filter, so you could drive that from your (lovely) amps pre-out. But how would you highpass the main speakers?

re-producing music.

I've been linked a couple of times to the REL Quake and there's a mint one selling on ePay at the moment.
Very diminutive in stature but allegedly quite a kicker..

Those BK's look nice. Ideally i'd like to keep budget around £300. Not worried about 2nd hand if is great shape.

So, the key is that im looking for High Level inputs? And then how do I interface with Amp? never bought sub cabling before.

But how would you highpass the main speakers?

Quite. I may be an audio snob but I don't pretend to be technically talented 🙂
Would someone please care to explain the difference between a high-level lead and a phono-to-phono lead?

REL again.

If you are happy to look second hand; the REL Strata was always the one that got the plaudits when I was 'into hi-fi'......

KEF do some half decent ones too, so might be worth looking at those.

I'm running a 2.1 setup, line level sub out to active sup, and stereo speakers connected in the usual way.

Basicaly I switch the amp to 2.1 mode so the floorstanders dont get the low bass, and then the low pass filter on the subs active amp is used to fine tune the HF cut off so it doesnt overlap with the floorstanders low end, or leave a frequency gap.

*goes to check if Elicit-R has 2.1 mode*

Those BK's look nice. Ideally i'd like to keep budget around £300. Not worried about 2nd hand if is great shape.

So, the key is that im looking for High Level inputs? And then how do I interface with Amp? never bought sub cabling before.

-- But how would you highpass the main speakers?
Quite. I may be an audio snob but I don't pretend to be technically talented
Would someone please care to explain the difference between a high-level lead and a phono-to-phono lead?

REL subwoofers used to be made by BK.

Using a sub with an AV amp the amp does the processing, separates out the low frequency information and send that to the sub via a line level Phono lead.

With an audio amp, on the BK subs at least, you connect the amp outputs to the sub.
Instructions here.

BKELEC.COM "http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/sub_woofers/XLS200+MK2+MANUAL.pdf"

I've had an XLS200DF for a few years now and it's a really good bit of kit. Only just over your £300 budget

I use a REl Strata 111 with B&W P4's and it brings out the lower register beautifully. It has a proper set of 2ch tuning filters mind you which enables extremely fine adjustment. that said, I am thinking of upgrading and have a set of spendor A6R's on loan which virtually negate the need for a sub as they go just that bit lower. How do you like your Elicit r?-I also have a Naim XS2 on loan and am tempted to also try the Elicit as the legendary Naim transformer hum irritates me a bit for a piece of equipment that pricey.

[img] [/img]

So my amp has a pre-amp output (appears a standard phono connection).
This looks like my only option of transferring signal to a 3rd channel.

Does this mean I simply use a phono cable to an active subs pre-amp input?
Then i'd be reliant on the subs built in amp/crossovers to filter the signal.
But my main speakers remain on full frequency.

Is this correct?

yep

So my amp has a pre-amp output (appears a standard phono connection).
This looks like my only option of transferring signal to a 3rd channel.

Does this mean I simply use a phono cable to an active subs pre-amp input?
Then i'd be reliant on the subs built in amp/crossovers to filter the signal.
But my main speakers remain on full frequency.

Is this correct?

Correct. However....

The reason people recommend using the speaker outputs to the sub (and then from the sub to your main speakers) is to avoid having the speakers running at full range.

By wiring up the high level inputs you get the benefit of the sub's crossover and can then work to manage any phase issues (the sub will have a phase switch).

I don't have a sub, but a BK is on the list (for my AV system and for my hifi). I'll just get shouted at if I bring any more AV/hifi kit into the house for the time being....

The reason people recommend using the speaker outputs to the sub (and then from the sub to your main speakers) is to avoid having the speakers running at full range.

This is by running speaker cable to main speakers AND 'Neutrik Speakon' high level cable to the sub from the same pair of speaker terminals, correct?
How does this prevent speakers running at full range? They are still receiving full signal from terminals.

By wiring up the high level inputs you get the benefit of the sub's crossover

I've got a BK Gemini II. Lovely for adding low down meat to the MA BX2s. It does run out of oomph when the bass goes really low. I've got my eye on their new P12 sub, but I've almost certainly got gains to be explored with placement and isolating from the floor with a stone slab or something.

https://www.avforums.com/threads/faq-high-level-and-low-level-inputs.1750938/

This has helped my understanding a little better.
So I now see my main aim is to connect via high-level input via the main speaker terminals. I just need to check to be sure that my amp is happy to do this.

But if you go via low-level input you still get to use the active controls to manage frequency response? Is that not the same thing?

Yes, it probably is. Not many stereo amps have a pre-amp out though which is why a high level input is needed. With a 'volume controlled pre out' I suspect there is no difference whether you take high or low level.

The full range will still go to the speakers but there are arguments for both sides when setting up an AV amp. If you have small speakers you definitely don't feed them with the lower frequencies but if you've large full range speakers then usually feed them the bass as well. The sub will go much lower they the floorstanders and you use the crossover and level to balance the sound

I've almost certainly got gains to be explored with placement and isolating from the floor with a stone slab or something.

I used to have mine on a stone tile that sat on half squash balls in a room with a suspended wooden floor. Made a huge difference. Concrete floor now so don't need to bother.

I have the B+W AWS 608. Like you I don't like huge base, but enough for good sound quality for music and films. Have been very impressed although I don't have anything to compare it with. Gets good reviews and fits your budget

I use a thick granite chopping board, sub placed on top on Sorbothane hemispheres. Definitely sounds less boomy with the wooden floor.

Just spoke to my local Rega dealer who said that if using REL (or Quake) subs then a high level input via speaker terminals is the easiest and best method to go for. Then proceeded to tell me that a sub is intended to compliment your floorstanders and not reach gut churning depths.. and therefore upgrading to larger floorstanders with better bass response is what I should do..

My years of playing with 12"/15" subs in my car begs to differ but heck, you have to respect the professionals right?

Still, I'm now tempted to play around with a cheaper sub (have spotted a local REL online) to see how it changes the dynamics. If the chap was right all along then I won't have binned much money in the process in order to have found out for certain.

"[i]...and therefore upgrading to larger floorstanders with better bass response is what I should do..[/i]"

If only someone had suggested that in the first place 😉

I hear you. Should've responded earlier, yes, I'd love to experiment with a new set of speakers apart from the fact that I enjoy the tone on my current pair and they are matched well to the amp - plus I don't have new speaker money to hand.

Also, I used to love the bass response from large subs in a car setting - and am keen to see if there's any similarity to be had in a home set up.

You can do that, just whack the volume up on the sub...

But really a sub should be sonicaly invisible, it should compliment the existing speakers by adding more low range and higher quality lows, so if you close your eyes you shouldn't be able to 'hear' theres a seperate sub, just that the overall sound and frequency response is well balanced, if it's properly balanced with the rest of the system it should seemlessly blend in and enhance the low end rather than overpower the mid range and high end.

If it's booming it suggests the crossover or the volume level of the sub needs tweeking.

Slimjim
If you're in Somerset, I've a BK [url= http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/Sub_Woofers/monolith-df.htm ]monolith[/url] (downwards firing) that's no longer required. Little use (& none in the last two years, as no room for it and the kids now have my hifi). Worked well with my weeny Rogers LS3/5As and was a knockout with AV. At nigh on 50kg, it's not a postage item...

I'm not familiar with Neat Mystiques, but if you were to measure their frequency response in your room, you will probably find that it is lacking below say 50Hz. This may be the speakers, the room or a combination of the two. Adding a sub which plays from 50Hz downwards will simply fill in the bits that they aren't currently producing, so as long as you are sensible with the levels, it should sound fine.

Even if you don't have any means of filtering the bass from the signal going to the Neat's, this won't really case an issue as they aren;t currently giving you any or enough output at these frequencies anyway. The only risk is that you start playing it louder for longer and could damage them without being able to hear it happen, so play them at the same levels you currently are with the sub fed from the same speaker level signal and they'll be fine.

Active subs have built in gain controls and crossovers usually so just play around with these until it sounds the way you want it to.

That monolith of drlex's is a beast if you've got the room for it.

If you're in Somerset

I like the look of the monolith so would possibly take the trip to Somerset, I'll drop you an email

What colour is the monolith and how much do you want for it?

I have an ATC C4, which is 'cleaner' and more musical than most subs, but doesn't give the percussive chest thump you're after.
6mx7m is a reasonable space to fill, and I can see why that rega/neat combo might struggle. Perhaps some large PMC's might be more suited to what you're trying to achieve.

What colour is the monolith and how much do you want for it?

6mx7m is a reasonable space to fill, and I can see why that rega/neat combo might struggle. Perhaps some large PMC's might be more suited to what you're trying to achieve.

I disagree regarding the floorstanders. I'd also say that regarding audio decisions, as a loudspeaker designer I find that hi-fi shop staff don't really know what they're talking about and generally recite the same old wisdoms which are usually oversimplified and often untrue.

For starters, the bigger your speakers, the less amp you need to 'drive' them - because it isn't about driving the speakers it's about driving the air in the room. It's a lot easier propelling a canoe with a paddle than with a teaspoon, even though the paddle is a bigger thing for your muscles to move.

Unless you listen to your music loud all the time, Fletcher-Munson will mean a system that measures well will sound too thin at typical levels. Turn up tha bass!!!

I think they thought they could sell you a better set of floorstanders, than a not so expensive sub.

and therefore upgrading to larger floorstanders with better bass response is what I should do..

If you just rely on floorstanders, you'll have to EQ the bass to a high level to get your bass hit, which compromises the overall sound.

As above, buy a sub and turn the bass to desired level.. I have to actually turn the bass down when turning the volume up a lot as its way too bass heavy at high volumes, but I get my sub bass hit at the lower levels.

You may have to get a bit geeky and look at the frequency response of your speakers and sub then EQ them so the crossover frequencies sound correct.

A man after my own heart..

I did wonder if there was an element of rhetoric regarding the shop advice. Like I mentioned before, i've FELT how good bass response can be in a car using big ol' subs - in my mind the same principle should apply in a living room environment. It should just require a good balance between outputs of speakers and sub in tandem.

So I see the sub experiment as mainly that, a (cheaper) experiment than swapping out the loudspeakers.
In fact, I still have a 12" Alpine sub in sealed enclosure thats been sitting around in my garage for probably 10 years. I recently hooked it up to one channel of my garage hi-fi just to see what would happen.. and the bass that it put out sounded great against the other standard speaker (don't worry, I didn't leave the amp running in this config).

I just have to accept it, im a bass head.

At work we have the excellent combination of some Tascam active 2-way monitors on the walls (I think they're 5" woofers in large standmount boxes) plus the 18" subwoofer we just launched.

[img] [/img]

Rel or BK, I would look no further.

So, for anyone that's interested, i came across an unlikely contender in the BK Minotaur - searched some old reviews and had a hunch that it might actually be up to task.
50w doesn't sound much bang for buck but after a couple of weeks of dialling in I bloody love the thing!

I followed some advice from elsewhere that essentially said dial it in till you can only just begin to hear it, and leave it right there - so after obviously running it at way more gain than required for a short while, it's now set at about 3 out of 10 on gain setting and it's transformed the sound on my system!
Everything now has a nice rounded depth, it all just sounds more like it's supposed to. The sub is tiny and also matches my speakers for finish and was pretty much the cheapest option out there so I'm bloody chuffed with the outcome.

Great news. BK subs are immense vlue for money and very well regarded.

I had a first generation XLS200 and it underpinned my old TDL RTL3 floorstanding transmission line speakers superbly.

As you rightly say the tuning bit is critical as it is too easy to turn it up too much.

If you want to get the most out of it (assuming you haven't done so already), try putting the sub where you would normally sit (on something solid) and move around the room edges. Where the sub sounds best is then where you put it.

"...and therefore upgrading to larger floorstanders with better bass response is what I should do.."