STW Jury - Opinion on parking fine

If the sign related to the council carpark but you weren’t in their carpark then who has issued the ‘fine’ and is it actually a ‘fine’ of something else Are home bargains (or whoever owns /managed the carpark) a body that can issue fines? Or are they a carpark management company who smatter their correspondence with words like ‘civil’ and ‘enforcement’ in a way that it makes it seem they are either of those things but aren’t.?

Fine was administered by 'Smart Parking'.

The problem I guess is that in my opinion at least, it wasn't clear where the council car park ended and the private one started - I assumed it was all one and the same. So curious if I'm being dense or if I have grounds to appeal.

I'd approach Home Bargains' branch manager if you can. Local store management often have jurisdiction over these matters. A chance for good PR. It worked for me at a Premier Inn; I didn't realise I had to register my vehicle at reception so received a ticket in the post a week later. The duty manager took the ticket, called me a tit  and said just ignore it.

I had a similar-ish one. Parked about 5 metres from a machine so assumed that meter applied to where I parked. Turned out it didn't. I appealed and got off (they implied it was a one off and they'd let it go this time, rather than admit the signs weren't clear). That was the council though, private companies tend to deny every claim the first time and only relent once you take it to the next level.

I've got one from parking eye for overstaying at Lidl last week. Wasn't even in the damn carpark, I was on a charger that's not in the carpark proper. Still deciding if I can be bothered to fight it at the moment.

nixie chargers are often provided by someone diferent to private parking co. Did you shop in Lidl, have you got a receipt, if so appeal, almost definitely will be cancelled. If you didnt shop in Lidl I assume you exceeded the standard 90 minutes or its a store you have to register its still worth appealing, Lidl are quite lenient and they set the rules.

enigmas unfortunately for you SMART parking arent quite so accomodating, you still need to appeal or you cant take it to the independant appeals service, POPLA. Was the PCN issued within 14 days of the date of parking, if so its POFA compliant (assuming not in Scotland) and they can hold you liable if you dont identify the driver, if it was issued after 14 days you dont have to tell them who was driving and they cant pursue it.

In both cases ignorance of the car park layout and rules or not reading the signs is not a defence unless you can show inadequate signage.

Sadly I live 3 hours away

That, coupled with the time and effort required to challenge mean I’d probably just suck it up and pay it.

I recognise I’m in a privileged position to be able to do so, but it’s more beneficial to me not to have stress in my life from things like this.

Separate thread with appeal to locals to post a few current photos??

Local Home Bargains to me has signs in car park saying they have no control over the parking and any fines...so suspect you may get a cold shoulder from Home Bargains.

How you've posted it does sound like you were unlucky and parked on the wrong side.

@stumpyjon didn't buy anything unfortunately, did go in the store to get dinner but fridges were broken resulting in no purchase. Only thing I have is the credit card charge from the charger. To add insult to injury the charger failed with an error half way through so didn't even get a decent charge. Going to try and talk to store manager and complain via FB but not holding out much hope.

There's no point appealing to Smart Parking. Because of the way the private parking company appeals system works, it's in their interest to deny it and refer to POPLA. Since POPLA is also funded by the same dodgy companies, they have a vested interest in finding against you and at that point you've lost the opportunity to pay the reduced amount.

I suppose you could explain that you dispute the legality of the charge and request that it's taken to the SCC to resolve, and point out in advance that your photo of the missing and confusing signage will be Exhibit A.

You may have more luck than you think with the store manager. I accidentally overstayed in an ASDA car park and their customer services cancelled the ticket as a gesture of goodwill when I called (they did ask for a proof of purchase from the store which I was able to provide, but it wasn't essential).

Sadly I’d pay. Those parking companies don’t make money by being reasonable.

Since POPLA is also funded by the same dodgy companies, they have a vested interest in finding against you and at that point you’ve lost the opportunity to pay the reduced amount.

I could be wrong on this, but I think the reduced amount remains while the appeal is ongoing then the 14 days starts again if found against you. On the odd occasion I've had a ticket I've always appealed to make them more work and extend the reduction on principle, (the principle being I'm going to be an arsehole to them).

My wife got a ticket after parking in a Home Bargains car park. She paid the fee into the machine for the hour and Smart parkings photos show her leaving within the hour.

On contesting it Smart Parking said they had evidence she did not enter the reg no correctly.Unfortunately she had thrown the ticket away and i believe it would have shown the correct reg .

She stumped up the £20 to avoid all the hassle.

Looking at the google image, there is no clear demarcation between what are supposed to be two separate car parks, and it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that any t&cs displayed on a machine in that position covered the entire car park. The clash between the 'pay and display until 6pm' and '90 minutes free' signs is confusing at best, and should make clear that you are entering a different car park.

Speak to the store manager to try to get it cancelled, and, if no joy, appeal on the basis of unclear/clashing signage.

Pepipoo forums should be able to guide you on the correct approach through the POPLA and beyond maze.

If you parked within 15m of a sign saying one thing, and there wasn't another sign clearly delineating the transition to a different set of restrictions then I'd say that arbitration should rule in your favor. Based on the traffic signs manual what you'd expect based on where restrictions change is a multi-panel sign with arrows like Figures 6-X here

The irony is that if this was under council enforcement then you'd have a much clearer and more impartial appeal and arbitration - but because this is private enforcement it is unfortunately stacked more against you.

Pay it now, move on, don't think about it again. What price anguishing over it, really?

Depends upon the fine ?

I've only been fined twice, one was my fault, the other ANPR'ed going into ASDA but not ANPR'ed coming out until the next day at a similar time. I appealed and said I worked round the corner and had called in on both days for shopping on my way to the office. Their system hadn't caught me leaving on day one, or entering on day two.

The way I understood it is if its a true PCN (Penalty Charge Notice), rather than a 'PCN' (Parking Charge Notice), then they're legally enforceable, and unless you really do have a genuine appeal, just pay it - this is normally what you would get ticketed on a council owned car park, on the street, etc. However a 'Parking Charge Notice' issued by the likes of Parking eye, etc, is not legally enforceable as you have not entered into a contract with the land owner to pay to park on their land. Parking on private land is trespass and as such is a still (curently LOL) a civil matter. The land owner, or the parking operator have no legal right to issue a fine. They make them look like a real PCN for obvious reasons of putting the frighteners on people. Its been a few years since I've done this, but if it's issued by a parking management company, not the council, then I would ignore them - their only route to legally get money from you is to go to small claims court and sue for damages to property - which they won't win because you didn't damage anything. Plus they can't be bothered to go down that route. They'll say they're passing it to collections, but they can't send baliffs, they can't do anything apart from keep sending more letters to you. eventually they give up.

The way I understood it is if its a true PCN (Penalty Charge Notice), rather than a ‘PCN’ (Parking Charge Notice), then they’re legally enforceable, and unless you really do have a genuine appeal, just pay it – this is normally what you would get ticketed on a council owned car park, on the street, etc. However a ‘Parking Charge Notice’ issued by the likes of Parking eye, etc, is not legally enforceable as you have not entered into a contract with the land owner to pay to park on their land. Parking on private land is trespass and as such is a still (curently LOL) a civil matter. The land owner, or the parking operator have no legal right to issue a fine. They make them look like a real PCN for obvious reasons of putting the frighteners on people. Its been a few years since I’ve done this, but if it’s issued by a parking management company, not the council, then I would ignore them – their only route to legally get money from you is to go to small claims court and sue for damages to property – which they won’t win because you didn’t damage anything. Plus they can’t be bothered to go down that route. They’ll say they’re passing it to collections, but they can’t send baliffs, they can’t do anything apart from keep sending more letters to you. eventually they give up.

Be very careful about this advice! I believe there was a case that set precedent that they can and will pursue you. Best to at least appeal then decide if it's worth chasing.

Beavis vs Parking Eye is the case

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/supreme-court-dismisses-85-parking-ticket-challenge/5051987.article#:~:text=Beavis%20v%20ParkingEye%20hinged%20on,any%20loss%20from%20an%20overstay.

Does this help? https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822/newbies-private-parking-ticket-old-or-new-read-these-faqs-first-thankyou/p1

However a ‘Parking Charge Notice’ issued by the likes of Parking eye, etc, is not legally enforceable as you have not entered into a contract with the land owner to pay to park on their land. Parking on private land is trespass and as such is a still (curently LOL) a civil matter. The land owner, or the parking operator have no legal right to issue a fine. They make them look like a real PCN for obvious reasons of putting the frighteners on people. Its been a few years since I’ve done this, but if it’s issued by a parking management company, not the council, then I would ignore them – their only route to legally get money from you is to go to small claims court and sue for damages to property – which they won’t win because you didn’t damage anything. Plus they can’t be bothered to go down that route. They’ll say they’re passing it to collections, but they can’t send baliffs, they can’t do anything apart from keep sending more letters to you. eventually they give up.

Wrong. Beavis vs Parking Eye makes this clear. You're right in that a Private Parking Co (PPC) cannot legally issue a fine, but the 'penalty' charge was allowed by the Supreme court, despite being substantially above losses / damages (how much have they lost if you overstay in a free car park, etc.) because there is allowed to be a deterrent effect.

On the back of that is is now worth their while to pursue non-payment and while ignoring it may make them give up, they now have desks of sufficiently trained admins following this up, they don't need lawyers for that.

Suggest you watch the video link barely 4 posts above, sets it out in perfect clarity why your approach could end up with you in court / getting a CCJ.

Local Home Bargains to me has signs in car park saying they have no control over the parking and any fines…so suspect you may get a cold shoulder from Home Bargains.

Well, that's a lie. Who commissions the enforcement company? 'Smart Parking' hasn't just rocked up one day going "ooh, car park!" and started lobbing stickers about autonomously.

perhaps it's a multi business estate where the landowner rather than individual shops have the deal with the PPC.

A lie, jumping in both feet there!

A 'Parking Charge Notice' is a legally-enforceable contract, and since Beavis, parking companies are allowed to not just recoup the actual losses (normally zero), but also set them at a deterrent level. They are allowed to get your details, and you can't hide behind them not knowing who was driving, as the registered keeper is liable these days.

The 'just ignore it' advice used to be OK, but now it's just wrong. It's possible they won't bother, but these days there is a substantial risk they will take it further, and that would end up costing you a lot more if it turns into a CCJ (which could sit on your credit file for years if you don't pay it off promptly).

I could be wrong on this, but I think the reduced amount remains while the appeal is ongoing then the 14 days starts again if found against you. On the odd occasion I’ve had a ticket I’ve always appealed to make them more work and extend the reduction on principle, (the principle being I’m going to be an arsehole to them).

For their internal appeals process this is the case, but when it goes to POPLA the dispute is over the full amount. So the parking company has nothing to lose, and in fact more to gain, by declining the internal appeal and referring it to POPLA.

From their own document:

“If you appeal to POPLA and your appeal is unsuccessful you will not be able to pay the discounted amount in settlement of the Parking Charge, and the full value of the charge will be outstanding.”

Different circumstances but I recently appealed to Smart Parking by following the guidance on the MSE website and the formal appeal template letter. Once you have submitted an appeal the clock is supposed to stop on any actions (though as I'd received mine after the 50% discount they give on the fine it didn't matter as much).

Belt and braces, I used the Smart Parking appeals page and emailed info@smartparking.com with the same note. They confirmed receipt and 35 days later I got a letter from them confirming they would waive the fine, so it is worth doing. Not sure what did it for me

I'd recommend using an anonymous email address and avoid giving them any personal info.

My letter fwiw. I think I adapted the template a bit, and some of it is probably nonsense. I don't know which part made them decide not to go any further.

Smart Parking

TODAYS DATE

Dear Sir or Madam,

Ticket number: TCxxxxxxxxxx

Vehicle registration number: xxxxxxxxx

You issued me with a parking ticket on x/x/2023 but it was unfairly issued. I also did not receive it until after the 14 day reduced charge period. I will not be paying your demand for payment for the following reasons:

The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable

The amount you have charged is not based upon any commercially justifiable loss to your company or the landowner.

In my case, the £100 charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of overstaying by 17 minutes. I therefore feel the charge you have asked for is excessive.

The notice is incorrect

The Notice failed to meet the obligations of Schedule 4 of the POFA Act 2012. the Notice arrived after 15 days following the alleged parking offence.

If you choose to pursue me please be aware that I will not enter into any correspondence and this will be the only letter you will receive from me until you answer the specific points raised in my letter.

Yours faithfully

thebunk

good news.

Top bit - I think you would lose that in court, if it came to it. I suspect the reason you won is because of the second part.

Of course you didn't actually win, because they never admit defeat. They'll have waived 'out of goodwill' :rollseyes:

No idea @Cougar...it isn't something I bother about as I don't use it, however, the signs are all there.

The reduction for early payment is purely discretionary on their part, they don't have to keep it running while you appeal. The amount they would be seeking judgement on is the full amount.

The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable

The amount you have charged is not based upon any commercially justifiable loss to your company or the landowner.

In my case, the £100 charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of overstaying by 17 minutes. I therefore feel the charge you have asked for is excessive.

The whole point of the Beavis ruling was that parking companies are now allowed to impose charges as a deterrent, not just to compensate for direct losses to the business.

There's no way I would let something like this go to court @theotherjonv, I've got far too much on. TBH if I had received it when the fine was £50 I probably would have grudgingly just paid it.

@martinhutch, IANAL 🤷 Also, just to be clear they confirmed when they sent receipt of my appeal that:

Your Parking Charge Notice will remain on hold during this period and will not increase or escalate whilst the appeal is being reviewed by the appeals team.

Hopefully it is helpful for the OP to know the PCN remains on hold during an appeal with Smart Parking - even if it doesn't come to anything they can pay the fine without any further consequence or increase.

@thebunk

That was their particular policy, my point was that it is entirely the company's decision whether to do this or not - there's no legal obligation, so a different company might not extend the discount period. Might be part of some wafer-thin code of conduct that some parking companies sign up to, though.

Useful to the OP for Smart Parking though (unless they've changed their policy since your encounter with them!)

IMO the whole thing is a complete stitch up these days so I just pay and forget about it.

Once I'd actually bought a ticket, but put it on the dash near the air vents and it blew off. Sent a copy of the ticket and they just said "tough, ticket must be on display, try using blu-tack".

I probably would have grudgingly just paid it.

My take here is, "is it fair?"

If I'd parked contravening regulations, fair enough, I'd roll over and pay it. It's my own fault.

If the ticket was due to shitty signage and potentially deliberately misleading information, then not while I've got a hole in my arse.

I'm not as hard-over on that. While there was a time when they were just cowboys I think they are better regulated now and actually providing a service*. You can argue that the 'fines' are too high but they were agreed by TSC as needing to be high enough to be a deterrent, and so part of the blame belongs with our fellow public that if they aren't deterrent enough will rip the arse out of it.

And I'm also not that keen on people getting off with it because signage was obscured by a branch or too small to read from my car and consequently not valid as i couldn't technically agree to a contract until after I'd started the contract by parking, or whatever shitehawk excuses people have apparently used. Sure if signage is deliberately misleading (I bet in most cases it isn't nowadays) but come on, it's a car park with signs up saying so, go and read them and know the deal. The video above he mentions getting off a ticket because it had snowed and there was snow on the sign. Then wipe it off!!

* I've migrated a bit further to the side of the PPC's / landowners than I'd possibly like, but at the site I used to manage we used to rent spaces from a landlord and regularly not be able to use them because Joe Public is a robbing little ****er who despite clear signage, and even me going out there and discussing with them, still kept parking in them because they could. But not my land, nothing we could do personally and landlord didn't really care. They're the ones to blame for PPC's and deterrent levels of charge.

Going by that street view, it's a bargain buys rather than a home bargain, and there is copious signs in both sides of the park, blue have you paid signs on the council end, white 90 minutes... on the bargain buy end.

You can put in a challenge about complexity of signage and so on, but after the PCN victory for the car parks, they're more prone to basically rejecting it on the spot these days and sending the letter, they know they have to follow the process, which inevitably ends with bailiffs at your door.

@nixie, whack proof of charging into an appeal to parkingeye, should get cancelled.

Interesting insight into people's understanding of how it all works, it is a legitimate service and the buck stops with the landowner, they set the rules and more crucially choose the enforcement provider. The bigger companies are fairly professional and know what the regulations etc are and make sure they follow them. They've seen all the legalese before and it doesn't help an appeal.

Bear in mind the retailer may not be the landowner so not have any control, with retail chains it may have been all set up and controlled through head office so the storemay have no influence. Also bear in mind they will often get the grief and will have heard all the excuses before so unless you've got a real good excuse it could go either way, they might cancel it to get rid of you or might say they can't because they are sick of people abusing their car park.

Most enforcement is funded by the PCNs, the land owner doesn't pay for the service, the people breaking the rules pay. Where enforcement isn't needed there usually isn't any as it's not commercially viable. The government are currently messing up the private parking bill which is a golden opportunity to tighten up the regulation and formalise the appeals process (although POPLA is pretty independant and random sometimes, bit like the courts). If they reduce the amount payable the deterrent will reduce and more critically fewer car parks will be commercially viable to enforce on and its not something land owners will pay for. Expect a return to the bad old days of gates being locked and people being held to ransom to be released.

The best advice is to always appeal but make sure you've thought through why, screaming it's not fair and its all a money making scam won't get you anywhere other than maybe in court. The better companies also don't push marginal cases, if people don't pay immediately the cost of the enforcement increases, not worth throwing good money after bad. Don't assume they won't take you to court though, they will if they have a decent case.

I’m also not that keen on people getting off with it because signage was obscured

I appreciate that there will always be the obvious piss-taker, but I can't agree with you here I'm afraid.

If it's 40p an hour to park and you're charging £100 for an infraction, you can afford to employ someone to cut the hedge and wipe the snow off. It's not my job to assist your enforcement.

Like, I'll generally take my glasses back to the bar because it's the right thing to do, but at nearly £16 for two pints (in Glasgow last week) you can come collect them and you're lucky I didn't leave a wee jobby on the table.

fair comments - having been the 'landowner' like I said, I lost some tolerance for the technicality avoiders on the basis that they're collateral damage for the pisstakers. Which is wrong but I'm just being truthful.

My approach has been to ignore these. You will receive a series of increasingly threatening letters. Ignore these too.

My approach has been to ignore these. You will receive a series of increasingly threatening letters. Ignore these too.

And the bailiffs?

When was the last time you did this (pre or post Beavis?)

All (qualified) advice is you can't do that anymore (OK - you can but at considerably more risk that previously) - but, it's your choice.

Say what you like about brexit, but it wasn’t leftists who made it happen.

And critically the CCJs, good luck and don't complain when that mortgage application gets turned down.

My approach has been to ignore these. You will receive a series of increasingly threatening letters. Ignore these too

Yeah, that's pretty out of date advice as detailed upthread.

I took on one of these companies and they bottled it just before court, but there were several quantifiable failures on their behalf. I have since been caught out when overstaying the 3 hours on the retail park near work, and paid because it was my **** up.

Unless you can categorically prove they have dropped the ball, you should just pay up.

Dont know where that quote came from, mustve been on my clipboard from another thread!

You can ignore the threatening letters which will be from a debt collection agency that the landowner or original parking company has sold the debt to, however if you receive a letter entitled Letter Before Claim, this MUST NOT be ignored, this will be from the landowner, original parking company ( Parking Eye etc) or their solicitor as only they can take you to court, the debt collection agency who the debt was sold to can't. Most of the time this won't actually happen as 90% of people just pay up but if it does then at that point you must pay or contest it in court, you can only be charged the original fine plus court fees, so usually about £160 all in. They have up to six years to enforce this.

The debt collectors often send demands for ever increasing amounts but this is totally unenforceable.

There is a very good Facebook group entitled FIGHT YOUR PRIVATE PARKING INVOICE #1 appeals forum where you will get good accurate and informed advice.