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Lennie (edit: Lippo) and Oscar is the saving grace so far
Demolished!
Short of pog falling off or forgetting his tt bike that’s the gc race over
20 seconds per km!
I think he won't need his TT bike as it's a mountain TT. Maybe he could ride a Boris Bike to give the others a chance.
Pog didn't even look like he was trying, l find it so boring now at least it was free to watch this year.
Oscar is smashing it, what a ride today. To be sprinting for 4th place on a hill he’s never ridden is immense, especially given that the top two are Pog and Vingegaard.
i do think we need to acknowledge that these athletes are genuinely superhuman. I’m in Spain at the moment so doing a bit of road riding, therefore aware of my average speeds. The fact that these guys rode over three hours at 50kmph average the other day is beyond my understanding of physics. Pog today was doing 30kmph on 8% gradient. Then, when they finish, they chat away doing media whilst warming down on the turbo. Then repeat the next day. It’s mind blowing how good these guys are.
Pog didn't even look like he was trying
Even Armstrong had the decency to make it look like hard work.
Pogacar looks like he's on a cafe ride as he blasts past everyone. Other riders drive the group, pull off when they're done and park up, absolutely wrecked. Pogacar goes "OK, I'll do a bit of work now" and sets off like a motorbike.
Top ride from Oscar Onley!
Unless Pogacar literally just spins up today's mountain time trial, I'd say he's also got this stage completely in the bag, the only question is by how much...
Last to go in a short uphill TT is a massive advantage here. He’ll be going for the KOM, but the team can give all the strategy if he’s wearing his radio earpiece - it kept falling out yesterday.
BTW only Mr 60%, Bjarne himself, went up yesterday’s climb faster. 30 seconds faster.
I appreciate that training and nutrition etc have improved hugely, but to have only Riis ahead of you in the times to climb hautacam is just not a good look.
That guys blood was basically syrup from the huge amount of doping
Well done Remco the mental side of getting dropped but staying on it is so hard! Let's hope he has paced it well
He played it very smartly. Ben should have dropped back with him instead of trying to hang on. Ultimately he would probably have lost less time. He's still in 11th though so has a chance to finish in the top 10 having won a stage and worn the yellow jumper.
I appreciate that training and nutrition etc have improved hugely, but to have only Riis ahead of you in the times to climb hautacam is just not a good look.
Very difficult to do direct comparisons cos it'll also depend on how they raced the climb itself, the run in to it, the previous days/weeks of racing, the weather...
Plus as you say, nutrition , aerodynamics, equipment.
But yes, there are constant question marks when the times of an almost completely doped peloton are being so comprehensively shattered so consistently.
I bet Pog + bike is lighter than Riis and bike too. Still, so long as people like Cobo aren't winning stuff I just enjoy the racing.
but to have only Riis ahead of you in the times to climb hautacam is just not a good look.
But bike weights have reduced massively since then so that must have a huge impact on climb times.
Edit: Oops, I see someone else had already mentioned that (I forgot to submit my post and it had been sat in draft).
But bike weights have reduced massively since then so that must have a huge impact on climb times.
As has sports pharma and the ability to pass doping control tests
the ability to pass doping control tests
Was never a problem for Lance etc
the ability to pass doping control tests
Was never a problem for Lance etc
The Tour has been in my backyard the last couple of days. Fascinating watching their pace over roads I've ridden 10s if not 100s of times and raced in triathlons and amateur road races. They're a huge chunk faster.
ITV4 coverage just starting.
Also featured a short clip from the making of Tomorrow Never Dies -- the opening "terrorist camp" sequence was filmed on that airfield. First mountain TT stage for 21 years, I didn't realise it had been that long!
I appreciate that training and nutrition etc have improved hugely, but to have only Riis ahead of you in the times to climb hautacam is just not a good look.
IIRC it was almost 30 years ago. The bikes they rode were closer to something Merckx used than anything available today.
If anything should raise suspicion it's the disproportionate amount of ability he has above the rest of the Peleton. He won the Giro last year by the largest winning margin for well over a hundred years. He might well win the Tour by a similar or bigger margin if he keeps doing what he's doing. He's winning races by attacking from 100km out and riding solo. He's not normal at all, but whether that comes down to genetics, PEDs, or something else, is another question.
They're a huge chunk faster.
Yeah, I remember when the Tour of Britain rode up Greenhow Hill near Pateley Bridge a few years ago. I can barely turn the crank at the steepest points (it hits 14% a couple of times), but they flew up it like it wasn't there.
Plus as you say, nutrition , aerodynamics, equipment.
I'd be curious to know how nutrition has changed over the years, weren't Merckx et al still eating a steak before each stage? Nothing like a vast lump of meat in the stomach to fuel high intensity efforts!
I'd be curious to know how nutrition has changed over the years,
The traditional thinking was 60g of carbs per hour. With the realisation that different sugars (fructose / glucose etc) are metabolised via different pathways, you can stack in double that now and use both metabolic pathways to their full potential.
When Froome did that massive long-range attack on the Giro, they'd planned it all out and had team members all along the route each holding the calculated amount of nutrition for him, they knew he'd need Gel X at this point, Gel Y at that point and so on. It had been scoped out to the last detail.
Plus you've got tech like power meters, HR, cadence and so on which all helps with pacing and fuelling.
It's up to about 140g/hr now.
Rather than go all out, I can see Pog just marking Vingegaard's time today and putting just enough effort in to beat him, so he doesn't risk cracking on tomorrow's mountain stage like he did on Col de la Luze in 2023. He'd be able to put much more time into Vingegaard on a stage like tomorrow compared to today's. However, even saying that I just can't see Vingegaard putting in a performance this year that's going to put him in yellow.
Some discussion that the slowest riders on the stage today could be at risk of elimination based on the time cut.
The good thing about stages like this is it can just potter along in the background while the commentators get the chance to discuss some of the more esoteric factors (nutrition, tech, team structure etc) in more detail. Nice conversation with Ned and Peter K at the moment about rider recruitment.
There's some big time gaps so far! So far it mostly seems to be riders trying to save a bit of energy for the days ahead with a few riders going much harder, maybe as a test bed for their team leaders.
Looks like Vingegaard is planning on going full TT mode.
glad to see Pog in normal gear well ahead of Vin in that stupid helmet.
Looks like a fun event to spectate at. beats usual TT. Can we have a hill climb every year?
No paint on Ving's bike, but that is a heavy helmet compared with the lightest Giros (450 vs. about 250 g). they will have data, but I was surprised to see it. Might be a carbon fibre non production version. I have Victor's Carbon fibre (i.e., lightest) Aerohead 1 and it's a nice helmet. Pog looked comfortable. Enough to win, but I think there was more. Right choice of bike and very aero on the hoods at the beginning.
Nice to see every combination of road/TT bikes and climbing/rear disk wheels. They'll all be at the UCI weight limit anyway, even with a rear disk (always faster but slower to spin up to speed). And they probably all had an enema before the stage started. Every gram counts!
Nice to see every combination of road/TT bikes and climbing/rear disk wheels.
Interesting mix of 1x and 2x as well.
1x and 2x doesn't really matter here, they're on big sprockets and big chainrings for good chainline. Apart from the wall at the end, it's a steady climb, so you can gear optimise carefully and stay in the middle of the block (best chainline and least losses), whilst keeping two gears back for the wall. Choice probably came down to whether you have SRAM or Shimano - 1x is very easy to set up and remove from SRAM as there are no wires. Or you have a special bike for the stage (Pog). Many will have a "climbing" bike, but a lot will just ride their day bike. And all will be at or close to the weight limit. Note that nobody was drinking - all prehydrated to save weight.
I think on balance, Ving had a good day today. He'll be satisfied with his performance given who he's chasing. Worst case was being caught for two minutes. On a road bike!
Was the enema thing real or a joke? 😬
Marginal gains. UCI weight the bike not the rider 😉
Honestly I had to read the enema thing at least 3 times. Really? Is that something they actually do?
I genuinely have no idea. But I'd want a decent No. 2 before racing to reduce weight if I could. At £1/g it's a very cost effective weight loss.
Fair enough, it is plausible for sure
Can someone who is more knowledgeable about these things than me let me know if it is realistic for Oscar Onley finish on the podium?
No paint on Ving's bike,
No paint or bar tape on Pog's bike. He'll be coming over here to ruin our hillclimb scene soon.
Can someone who is more knowledgeable about these things than me let me know if it is realistic for Oscar Onley finish on the podium?
I doubt I'm any more knowledgeable than you but my educated guess (aka what I reckon) is it's possible but perhaps not probable. I'm loving how he's going at the moment though.
Today has the look of "it's too good to be true. . ." (Thanks to the PED abusers of my early cycling interest).
The Tour is in town tonight, don't think I can be bothered to walk in though.
Note that nobody was drinking - all prehydrated to save weight.
On an effort of half an hour you don't even need to prehydrate, the intense effort will mainly be fueled by glycogen in the muscles and liver, and the water liberated from the glycogen burning is enough hydration.
Today has the look of "it's too good to be true. . ."
Thankfully even Pogacar had the good sense to look like he'd made at least a bit of an effort this time around. Although lots of people were collapsing in a sweaty heap as they crossed the line and he just looked like he'd run up a flight of stairs a bit quickly.
I reckon he'll win again on Ventoux. 🙄
I've no doubt that Pogacar fait le métier but then so do the others. The last one who didn't was probably Bassons. That said every now and then a rider appears who has a bigger engine than the rest and performs just about anywhere and everywhere - Merckx, Hinault, Pogacar.
There were riders setting off with non-aero bidons on their bikes, at least when ITV4 coverage began.
I'm just watching the evening highlights. Vingegaard deserves to loose for wearing that bloody stupid helmet.
Yeah, I'm picturing a xenomorph queen from the Aliens franchise with a Danish flag on their head. 🤣
There were riders setting off with non-aero bidons on their bikes,
Sometimes the bikes themselves are optimised for use with a bottle - even a round bottle will smooth the airflow. No idea if that was the case here or if some riders were simply doing the bare minimum to get inside the time cut and didn't really care about the tiny aero differences of a water bottle, they'd rather have had the option of some hydration or a quick douse of cold water.
Since most were on regular road bikes, an aero bottle wouldn't have been worth it.
I'm watching the highlights show now, I hoped there might be more "features" type articles or some of the previous stages and history here but it's all been on the riders.
Is it just me, or is the lip sync WAAAYYY out on ITV4/ITVX?
yeah, lip sync on streamed ITV4 is shite
We went out with the MTB club this morning and arranged the ride so we'd see the Tour go past on the Pau bypass. Nice atmosphere with people being very sensible unlike on the mountain stages. The vast majority of people had got there on foot or by bike. I enjoyed being a part of the procession of walkers, kids on bikes, bikes with kids in trailers, shopping bikes, grannies on bikes on the road back into Pau.
Chaotic so far today - no break allowed to go clear, all sorts of attacks, counter attacks and failed moves. Bad crash for Skelmose who seemed to clip a traffic island but is now back up and riding.
Geraint Thomas in what passes for a break at the moment albeit only 30" up the road, certainly not an established gap.
Evenepoel looks wrecked. Getting dropped already.
Yeah, he's broken.
Interesting factoids about Lennie's family & biking. Must admit that Miguel is the only one I coudld've named but a couple of others in there too
I imagine Remco is fighting an infection. Who hasn’t felt wrecked and then come out with a cold a few days later.
The UAE rampage is beginning., they've closed down nearly 2 minutes to the break.
I really hope Pogacar doesn't close it all down, then ride off the front and win again. 🙄
FFS, pog may as well be wheelying up the road here
Well that was a bit of a nail-biting finale.
Once again, stunning performance from Oscar Onley.
FFS, pog may as well be wheelying up the road here
Everyone else comes to a near standstill on the finish line, virtually collapses. Pogacar strolls off casually like he's just ridden back from the shops.
I've raced the final climb a couple of times in Winter triathlons, pity there wasn't a view because it's lovely up there. Also done on a tandem with junior in the kiddy seat.
Is it me or does Ineo’s kit clash horribly with the colour of their bikes?
Ineos needed that win
Imagine how demotivated Vingo must be feeling. At least he gave it a go.
Off to ride stage 19 tomorrow
Imagine how demotivated Vingo must be feeling. At least he gave it a go.
Pogacar is strong enough to use anyone else's team as his own personal leadout train. The whole point of the old USPS / Sky days etc was you have a load of really strong mountain domestiques who set a killer pace that whittles everyone down, knackers everyone out etc then your leader makes his bid for glory and everyone else is so wrecked that they can't follow.
That just does not work when Pogacar is 10% stronger than everyone else. You can set whatever pace you want and he'll just sit there at 80%, not remotely in trouble. It's like everyone else is in a diesel estate and he's in a sports car. At some point he'll just pull out of the convoy and floor it.
Barring some kind of massive disaster like a huge crash or a severe illness, he's pretty much unbeatable on virtually all terrain.
I'm really glad he didn't win today and also that Martinez did such a great ride to earn the polka dot jersey properly, not just wear it cos he's second in the rankings.
I still reckon Pogacar will win on Ventoux though.
Everyone else comes to a near standstill on the finish line, virtually collapses. Pogacar strolls off casually like he's just ridden back from the shops.
Surely no one can be that far in advance of the rest without some help that is, at best, borderline outside "the rules".
I think that
help that is, at best, borderline outside "the rules".
is the peloton norme but that he's just better than the others. When I was competing my cardiologist drew me a normal distribution curve and pointed out where he thought I was - on the very right of the graph. Then he went a bit further right and said that some people were there, then even further right and said "that's Bernard Hinault". At least I knew where I stood, I'd get some reasonable results but never win.
It's interesting to see the other riders' attitude to Pogacar - he's not disliked and there's respect, like there was was for Hinault or Merckx. Unlike say US Postal or Team Sky.
Surely no one can be that far in advance of the rest without some help that is, at best, borderline outside "the rules".
On which note, there's no questions around doping any more?!
Armstrong got asked again and again especially towards the latter of his Tour "wins". Constant insinuations, not just around him but other riders too, post-race press conferences scattered with questions around it.
Now... Nothing.
There is a huge difference between passing the doping tests and being clean. That doesnt just apply to Pogcar or even cycling but Im struggling to see how he can be that much better than the rest
Anyone know how badly (if at all) that Spector was injured when the Ineos team car hit them?
It's probably not the first time something like this has happened but it's the first I can recall where it was televised.
There could be serious repercussions if it was a serious injury, particularly as many of the team car drivers aren't paying 100% attention to the road....(witness the in car footage from "Unchained"...)
Surely no one can be that far in advance of the rest without some help that is, at best, borderline outside "the rules".
Im struggling to see how he can be that much better than the rest
See that normal distribution curve Edukator mentioned. There have always been outliers in any sport. Always will be.
Pogacar only needs to be 1% better than all the other freaks he's racing to make it look easy.
Anyone know how badly (if at all) that Spector was injured when the Ineos team car hit them?
I was watching that on the live ITV4 coverage.
He was trying to push forward, past the breakaway to get to Arensman who was a minute up the road by that point. Fair enough and the best place to do it is on the climb rather than the descent.
But I was watching the driving and just thinking "WTF is he playing at?!" cos it was atrocious. He came close to a couple of the riders, couldn't get through the crowds, kept pushing...
I've driven a fair bit in race convoys, including the Worlds, and I've seen plenty of shit driving but that was insane.
You're right about the drivers too. All the UCI nonsense about socks and bar width and rim depth; meanwhile there are DS who are driving the car, watching the race on TV, handing up bottles, trying to sort race tactics, talking on the radios...
Quickest safety win - the driver does driving, the rider has to receive bottles, clothing etc from a soigneur or mechanic in the passenger seat.
When you get that far to the right of the distribution, it’s not normal. And as said small difference get hugely magnified once your taken to the edge. And that’s the point of stage racing. Pog will be the most tested athlete in the peloton by far. Blood passports have removed the silly high (and dangerous) historic haematocrits
But there is plenty of science around metabolism being explored by teams. It could simply only come down to who has the best gut adaptation to absorbing huge carb loads (not me based on my recent 100 TT), or best heat adaptation. Or infection control. Every factor will be considered to maintain an advantage. Not to mention the best pillows 😉
Dont forget, when US Postal raced, they were a superhuman TEAM. The UAE team are good, indeed many GC riders are sacrificing their ambitions as domestiques for high salaries, but I don’t think the team look any weaker or stronger than VLAB or others. Of course both of the top two have their own Yates twin. Convergent strategy indeed.
Pog said he had a blocked nose in post-race interviews yesterday. No big attacks either - though Jonas described it as one of the hardest stages he's ever done, which might explain it. Seems like he's coming down with something anyway, so will be interesting to see if it impacts the race.
See that normal distribution curve Edukator mentioned.
Unfortunately he then justified this by citing someone who was racing outwith the rules on "pharamceutical help". It's not convincing and post EPO I'm not convinced that the sport has cleaned up.
It's not convincing and post EPO I'm not convinced that the sport has cleaned up.
BikeRadar did a surprisingly in-depth article on it the other day:
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/12-years-after-lance-armstrong-how-clean-is-cycling-really
It outlines some of the challenges around the current system - while it's obviously put a stop to massive doses of EPO, it's still got issues and problems and it's a fair bet that the teams, especially the top-funded ones, are a step or two ahead most of the time.
There's also the image thing (which the article references). Football and tennis manage to sweep most of it under the carpet for example. Maintain their nice clean image. Cycling - if Armstrong had actually failed a test* during his competition, it would have destroyed the Tour. Same now with Pogacar. If he gets pinged, the entire event will fall. It came very close during the Festina scandal.
* I'm aware that he did fail one and managed to produce a back-dated exemption certificate for it which in itself is another example of how the system could be beaten back then
Yeah, but at any particular level of widespread "pharmaceutical help" the outliers will still be stronger. Within any sport you'll have the dopers and non-dopers. In some sports they compete alongside each other, that was the case in triathlon in the 90s, those of us that didn't took the start with those that did and had been caught and served bans right up to world championship level. However in cycling I'd be surprised if a rider way off the right of the chart didn't use anything they'd get onto a professional team today. Back in 1997 Bassons was recognised as the only clean rider in Festina and oossibly the whole peloton at the Lille trial.
That Lille trial Festina doping protocol (from a selection of about 100 products IIRC) was tested by one athlete under the supervison of a federation and found to be worth about a 15% increase in sustainable power output - and non of the Festina riders ever tested positive. Since then I don't think the science has gone backwards and the riders haven't got any slower even accounting for aero improvements. So I don't think Pogocar is doing anything those just behind him aren't - he's just better. And if there are any riders that take absolutely nothing then hats off to them for even getting in before the deadline.
Don’t confuse “use something” with doping. If it’s currently legal, they absolutely WILL be using it. That’s the definition of being a professional. If there is some new gut formulation that enhances carb absorption, or CO breathing to simulate altitude, teams will consider this in their training. Not to mention recovery post stage. They aren’t racing on bread and water. But the legal question is different.
The biggest dopers in cycling are vets racers in gran fondos. It would be easy to take banned substances in domestic low level racing as the testing is basically non-existent. I’ve raced a couple of hundred times and never seen a tester. Normally it’s done on tip offs from other riders. National events will be subject to testing, but not always.
The biggest dopers in cycling are vets racers in gran fondos. It would be easy to take banned substances in domestic low level racing as the testing is basically non-existent.
I sent that article to a mate who lives in southern Spain and regularly races Gran Fondo and various gravel things himself. He didn't bat an eyelid, just said that it was absolutely rife over there. Said there were guys he'd beat 10-15 years ago who were now setting times faster than anything they managed from that era and he didn't stand a chance against them now.
That thing about abandons/non starts when the dope testers turn up was how Madame Edukator got her French national championship title. We also did a European championship event in Spain where there was panik in the bike park and a number of non starts and abandons. Thinking it's a uniquely continental problem is an error, the first place I was told by a club mate I'd never win anything unless I doped was in the UK around 1976 - I just resigned myself to never winning anything (but did). In triathlon we noted a number of athletes who'd been very average suddenly improving around the time the Lille trial made the Festina protocol public, notably a doctor.
Sandwich - can you please justify your (rather sweeping) comment re. Bernard Hinault? I am not aware of anything to justify it, whatever the true situation at the time may have been. To quote Wikipedia: "Hinault never tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs during his professional career and was never implicated in any doping practices"
In any case that has sod-all to do with the point Edukator was making.