STW-dadsnet opinion please….. (men AND women please!)

LTB.

Oh, you did! Ermmm, nope, I’ve got nothing. Sorry.

Every bloke I know who has got divorced and has a decent income has ended in this kinda situation.

Her demands sound ridiculous and I don't really understand how these women get away with it.
One bloke at work did end up getting a childcare payment reduction when she demanded more money, he refused and it ended up back in court. They judged that he was actually paying more than his fair share and his payment amount was actually reduced.

Sorry to hear you are in this situation. Hope it gets sorted.

Godda say you may be in the wrong here. *may*

It all depends what these shared costs are...
I think lunches for our two are about 240 a month ish.
Schooliform who knows, but it sure mounts up.

I'd expect school trips to need more money TBH.

But, it all boils down to what that "£800" is being spent on... if she refuses to tell you then you may well have a point

cover the kids ‘joint costs’ such as school uniforms and school meals etc
Bearing in mind..I still have to feed/clothe/entertain/drive/heat/house etc

This second bit paints you in a not great light. Of course you gotta feed entertain, drive, heat, house them when they're with you. Obviously. But none of that is remotely relevant to your question, because your ex clearly does exactly the same on her 50%.

So leave that to one side.

Are you paying her £970 CMS plus an additional £400 on top, or just the £400?

In the face of emotional blackmail I'd be telling her to get ****ed, frankly. If she wants to pay £5k for private dental treatment, let her. If you want to fund school trips, fund school trips directly, screw giving her the money to (probably) do it.

Legally, I have no idea. I think I'd be seeking proper advice.

This second bit paints you in a not great light. Of course you gotta feed entertain, drive, heat, house them when they’re with you. Obviously. But none of that is remotely relevant to your question, because your ex clearly does exactly the same on her 50%.

It's kinda relevant...cos it's highlighting how observations her statement/ belief that 400 is ALL I contribute.....

DrP

How many kids does this £400 per month cover? Although my interpretations may be irrelevant as if i thought my wife was giving each of ours £5.50 per day dinner money and then £80 each on school clothing every single month I would probably need a lie down and a brandy. Even if lunches down south are hugely expensive, just shy of £1k each a year would be buying a lot of clothes evening during a growth spurt.
Why does the dentistry have to be private? Our daughter had wonky teeth all fixed in the nhs for nowt (at point of treatment obviously).

I'd offer to pay 50% of specific trip costs with evidence of the cost and I'd tell her to get the kids teeth sorted on the NHS, had both of ours done that way (with good results) despite isimg a private dentist ourselves.

I wouldn't stump up any more, of you do it will never be enough.

I've got this t-shirt!

I initially used to pander to the repeated requests then it got out of hand and I dug my heels in.

It's even more galling to know that the monthly payments I pay doesn't get spent on the kids in its entirety.

I did a rough calculation that I've transferred something like £47k in maint payments since we parted ways.

"But, it all boils down to what that “£800” is being spent on" - It's isn't 800GBP though is it because that 800 covers 50% of their time (with the ex) and then DrP is also spending another 800?for his 50% so the total cost per month for the children is 1600?.

This is a nightmare and I'm sure there are multiple answers all of which are going to be tough when minors are involved. FWIW I think school trips likely come into the "general use" category but a private dentist is going to require other stuff - not least do you agree with the care plan....

Its not you have given her the money. Its that you contribute to childcate costs. If she is not using it on the kids its a differnt mstter but how far does 400 a month go ?

Hang on - if it’s 50/50 on time the kids with you then you’ve presumably got half the costs - yet are paying her £400 a month anyway. If she’s paying all the school lunches / buying all the uniform / their clothes and you aren’t doing any of that then fair enough - but £400 a month is quite a lot towards that.

If it’s more than that I’d want to see a breakdown of what the money is going on.

On the dentist thing £5k is a lot at 12 years old - guessing it’s braces and the like - in which case I’d have thought the NHS would cover that for free as an under 16/18.

Trips - fair enough 50/50 - but then the £400 a month should go towards that assuming it’s not all eaten up by clothes / school lunches etc.

So no on the face of it I don’t think you’re being unreasonable.

The £400 a month you pay is just to cover uniform and lunches? all the other child costs you split evenly?

It is very easy to reduce a situation to this to just cost. However their are so many other areas of raising kids that cannot be factored directly into a monthly sum.

They may stay with you 50% of the time but they live with her so I assume she has the larger share of the parental responibilty?

I'm a single dad my kids live with 85% of the time but 100% of the parental responsibilty falls on me.

For true balance i hope you are running a parallel thread on Mums net?

You’re down to 400 through mediation, it can easily go back up to 1k a month, so worth mediating these one off bills like dental and trips.

Reasonable never really happens in this type of scenario, the only out for reductions is if she remarries soon.

Tell her your reducing the payments and sticking it in fund for the kids uni fees or whatever.
Let her see the payments into the fund each month but have no access to it.
Half each on the school trips if your ex is earnings good money.

But NO really is the hardest word to say when kids are involved.

Edit* the dental thing is hard because the waiting time by me is 18mt for Ortho work on the NHS.
So if jnr wants it done or it needs doing then maybe.

I would add it sounds like you have a half decent relationship with your ex with the mediation, shared custody, etc, I’d not let a little money get in the way of that unless you’re struggling?

There are two questions here of course (a) is what she is asking for fair? (b) can you afford it?

Tell her your reducing the payments and sticking it in fund for the kids uni fees or whatever.
Let her see the payments into the fund each month but have no access to it.

These payments are via the CMS, so do not withhold or reduce, the reduction you have already is extremely reasonable compared to some people i know, it might be worth a chat, as you're going to have a lot of large bills before the kids hit 18 (or leave higher eduction)!.

If it's CMS then your right absolutely. I'd still do it on any extra payments that are asked for the kids win win on it.
It's a crappy situation I've seen both sides for sure.

It might be worth seeing if there's a local dental university for Jr's teeth. I've had veneers replaced at no cost and in short order at Sheffield Dental Hospital - the students have to learn somehow.

If you earn more than her then offer to pay for the trips. Give the money straight to the school/ scouts whatever.

If you earn the same amount as her then split the costs.

Teeth on the NHS

Seems like the OP did pay £970 and now pays £400 to cover joint costs, thereby implying that the joint costs are actually £800 a month for her to pay out, despite the OP having them for 50% of the time. £800 seems a lot for 15days of consumables. Does she pay any childcare out of this?

I'm divorced, two kids.
50:50 custody.
Both earn an ok salary (almost the same actually).

She has savings, i have the house.

I've paid her exactly nothing in maintenance for the kids.
I can't see why i should (or would).

TBH, if she asked it'd have to be via the courts, and she'd get laughed at.

I'd be asking to see the invoices and arranging to pay my half to the company involved, not to the ex. Before that these are his kids too, so I'd ask for any such decisions to be brought for mutual consideration.

Sign up to spending £5k without me where it can't be demonstrated that its an absolute necessity and there's no other option and she would be footing the bill alone.

Are you actually going through the CMS or is it a guide and you are bound to pay maintenance by another agreement- eg the terms of a divorce settlement? If you’ve committed to pay under some other agreement, then presumably she and you signed up to it and other compromises were made elsewhere (like pension or asset splits, for example). In which case, I say, suck it up, it’ll never seem ‘fair’ to either party.

Also, I think it’s wrong (but very hard not to) to pass judgement on how an ex spends. You don’t get to say how they manage their finances - as long as the kids are being looked after. She might argue that the kids get the benefit of the Tesla, and that her handbag is equivalent to your bike. You’re separate entities now, so try and resist the urge to comment.

Overnight stays is the CMS definition of 50/50. But she’s taking the child to the dentist…do you do that? Or the dr? If she is taking the initiative on all that sort of thing, and gets the info on school trips and passes it on to you, she’s effectively doing more admin. Not that the CMS would necessarily count that, but she might in her mind.

That said, I think it’s reasonable to consider that any extraordinary costs like trips and private healthcare would be split 50/50 AFTER a discussion where both parties agree they can afford that.

Try to stick to facts not assumptions, and remember that probably both of you are pissed off and neither thinks anything is fair. You just need to find a way to agree to a tolerable degree of unfairness, alongside meeting any legal obligations. Imagine a conversation a few years down the line when your kids are adults: would it look to them like you were just keeping score, or were you trying to find a balance between what’s good for them and what you can afford? The second is what every parent does, the first is what divorced parents sometimes do.

Im probably missing something but how is it you pay 400 pm whilst splitting 50 /50 child care? Could you sort out the uniform etc and she pays you 400 pm? It seems you are over paying on the uniforms and she is splitting the other costs as per the 50/50 agreement. IANAA

They may stay with you 50% of the time but they live with her so I assume she has the larger share of the parental responibilty?

No.. they live with us each...
I've just spent a fortune on a house for us all...own rooms etc etc...
All admin is shared... I do beaver trips, scout trips... etc etc

And CMS would now say the cost is zero, as we have kids 50 50...
Anyway...
I'm off to bed!

DrP

If she finds £400 so little then she won't miss it if you offer to stop paying it.

A sensible perspective from Hannah I think. Without knowing full details of the income of both sides, we can judge.

But kids get more expensive as they get older, especially the trips. Need to have a conversation between the two of you as to if or how you can afford to do that sort of extra activity.

I think what gets me is the money I give her is literally ONLY for extra stuff like this, given the 50:50 split...

So when I ask her where the 25k had gone, and why she needs more, and I get no answer, I get annoyed.

I even suggested she give ME 400 per month, and I'll cover all extras.. she said no...
DrP

In which case I refer you to my original answer. Consider, you're bankrolling it and she's taking all the credit. As long as you keep handing it over, she'll keep asking. She's using the kids as a weapon and that's not fair on anyone, least of all them.

This whole 'maintenance' idea hangs on the idea that man is the breadwinner and the woman is the home-maker, so she's screwed in a split. Which as far as it goes is absolutely fair enough.

But if we're pushing for equality, to close the gender pay gap, typically in a partnership both are out at work these days anyway... should we not be considering this objectively rather than just doing what we've always done? Does one earn more than the other? Are you in new partnerships?

I pay my ex a big,big chunk more than that a month, but I can assure that having teenagers isn't cheap, and if you weren't separated, that money would have gone and then some. You are not going to get rich having kids!

I'd suggest you sit down and work out exactly who's paying for what. I'd go with what Hannah said, and try to avoid the bitterness and whining. Stuff like the dentist you have to suck up if there's no NHS available,

However, it’s funny she’s just got a new tesla, and has a £5k Chanel bag…

As Hannah says, it's kind of hard to be objective about this when you try and paint this sort of evocative picture. I immediately felt irritated on your behalf before realising that I had no idea who was in the right (you don't tell me what car you drive or what silly stuff you spend your money on).

I haven't really followed your saga on here but ISTR it was a bit acrimonious? It sounds like you're still bitter? I have no idea whether that's reasonable/rational given your relationship but it's important to realise it might be affecting your objectivity, too. I suppose that's why you've asked on here.

I think the only way to play this is to calculate who's paying how much for what.

I know absolutely nothing about how this all works - however, as somebody outside looking in:

The fact that you have the kids 50/50 obviously infers that the everyday "running costs" of the kids is covered. This clearly includes regular costs like food, accommodation, heating, bills etc. The difficulty comes with non-regular, but legitimate expenses like you mentioned. These should also (obviously) be split 50/50 - but what is the mechanism for that to happen?

A good example is something like scout subs, or the costs of a school trip. I don't think it's in any doubt that these costs should be paid - but who is paying them? It shouldn't just fall to whoever gets handed the bill - as more likely than not, it will always be the same person.

I think there needs to be an agreement about what costs are going to be "extra" to the regular arrangement, but "approvable" by the other party, and everything else requires a discussion. For example:

Your ex is going to handle (and pay for) trips to the dentist, but the costs for any treatments will be split. You are going to take the kids to the opticians, but the costs for new glasses etc will be split.

However, I don't think its reasonable to decide unilaterally that 5k of dental treatments are required - and just hand the other party a bill for half - which is akin to me going out and buying a new car without discussing/agreeing it with my wife beforehand, but expecting her to pay half.

I think once you establish an understanding about what costs are being met by whom, then it should be obvious what falls outside that and requires a discussion, or doesn't require a discussion and can be spit (ie: I paid for a school trip, you owe me for half).

You don’t get to say how they manage their finances – as long as the kids are being looked after.

surely that kind of depends. If she can't cover the cost that she should reasonably be covering under the agreeeent because she spunked it on a handbag then there is an issue?

Surely there must be a joint account available for kids expenses stuff? ITs seems daft that there isn't a "here money" "his money" "the kids money" setup for such situations.

surely that kind of depends. If she can’t cover the cost that she should reasonably be covering under the agreeeent because she spunked it on a handbag then there is an issue

And this is my issue...
When she says the 400/mth i give her to cover the 'joint costs' doesn't cover it, I've asked her for a cost breakdown. Which she refused. So I literally don't believe her.

I guess look at it this way..
If you agreed there was a pot you'd each put £5k per year into for your kids, but only ONE of you had access to this pot, and tells the other it's suddenly empty... shouldn't all parties have visibility WHERE it went? Especially if you're now being asked for MORE?

DrP

She needs to be providing a breakdown of what is being spent, even if it's only a rough breakdown rather than fully itemised. It's complete guesswork otherwise.

Have you said you are willing to pay more, if she can provide the evidence it's necessary? Or have you just refused her request for more and asked for a breakdown?

Joint bank account and communicate. Get a system in place for the sakes of all concerned
EDIT: Joint bank account for the children only, clearly 🙂

She needs to be providing a breakdown of what is being spent, even if it’s only a rough breakdown rather than fully itemised.

This is an entirely reasonable request, and I'd be standing firm on no more cash for unilaterally decided expenses until it was provided.

Have you said you are willing to pay more, if she can provide the evidence it’s necessary? Or have you just refused her request for more and asked for a breakdown?

Yes.

I genuinely said "if the money I give you doesn't cover the joint costs, then of course we can talk about a different arrangement".
She gets nasty and says she doesn't need to explain anything to me...

DrP

Firstly, that’s an expensive 2%!

Never had to go through this etc, but I would have thought that the big financial decisions (such as dental and school trips) would have been discussed before committing whilst married, should also be discussed whilst divorced.

Also it’s pretty clear that the issue isn’t the money, and it’s not you’re trying to get out of support payments for your kid

In answer to you question, no, you’re definitely not being a dick. Is she?…all evidence presented demonstrates she’s a massive one

She needs to be providing a breakdown of what is being spent, even if it’s only a rough breakdown rather than fully itemised.

I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily entirely reasonable, everyone has different ways of managing their money. Some like to save a bit then buy the new boiler/roof/car, while others go for the credit/loan option. Some like to eat out as a luxury, while others like to buy a bike. Part of being separated is that you get to make your choices about these things on your own. Whether a breakdown analysis would be reasonable would depend and awful lot on the specific terms of the agreement- otherwise it’s like going back over the divorce and asset split time and time again, and no one ever gets to move on.

Hannah.. I'm not asking her how she spends HER money...
I'm asking her how she spends the money I give her for shared kid expenses, especially in the context of her asking me for MORE...A

DrP

What you're paying per month is I assume the CSA calculated amount - if so this has nothing whatsoever to do with 'need', it is purely the law/rule and based upon earnings and split of responsibilities.

Anything else you 'both' spend is up to each of you plus an agreed split of additional costs where one of you thinks both should pay. The school trip for example, if you don't agree with your child going, then say so. In the same way she might not agree to something you think your child(ren) should be doing, and then you can pay.

For the teeth, if they need doing then get another quote and discuss.

Yes, I've been here (2 kids at 2 & 3) - the key thing is to take the emotion out.

And for reference I was paying £500 per month in the late 90's, with access whenever I wanted but as my job required vast amounts of UK & international travel, usually only had then a couple of nights a fortnight.

As DrP says, what she is spending her money on is entirely up to her but the £400 is specifically for the child<u>,</u> as it's not her money I think it's something that should be completely transparent. If it were to go the legal route then you couldn't get away with making a number up.

Could it be paid into a separate account, as you are 50/50 and it's not for day to day costs then having transparency over what it's being spent on doesn't seem at all unreasonable. If it wasn't a 50/50 split then it wouldn't be so clear.

Hannah.. I’m not asking her how she spends HER money…

… and yet you thought it relevant to mention the car and handbag.

I know things can lost on the printed page but this comes across more about control than the money itself.

and yet you thought it relevant to mention the car and handbag

I think I mentioned this as , in the absence of visibility on the kid 'additional' costs, I suspect this is where the kid money is going... 🤷‍♂️

What you’re paying per month is I assume the CSA calculated amount

No...cos the CSA (Now the CMS... but it's the same..) would say my payments are ZERO, as we have a 50:50 shared care.
Thus it comes down to, in my mind anyway, the 'agreed between us' £400 per month is for school uniform/trips/school lunches etc.
I would have been happy to have a discussion every month about "uniform cos X, meals cost Y" (for EACH of us, as I still pay for school trips etc as I'm olthe only one on my daughter's squid-pay app!) and then we split this cost..but she didn't want to have that level of communication, so we agreed the sum of £400 that should more than cover it.

DrP

if the split is a genuine 50/50 then you should pay her zero each month. As you are both sharing the daily 'running costs' of children.

The trips etc should defo be split, but equally discussed... she cant just sign them up and expect you to pay 50% (although it sounds like you can afford them, a bit of common courtesy doesnt go amiss).

Likewise with the dental stuff, as many have said the NHS can do it, or if there are certain circumstances that you need to go private, it needs a discussion, not a demand.

how old are your children by the way?

As someone who had their child used as emotional blackmail, i may be a bit bitter when i hear these things..... But thankfully, mine is now wanting to move in with me, so maybe i will ask her mother for monthly payments 😛

OK so how about you reverse the £400 and say you will cover the cost of school uniform/trips/school lunches etc directly and she pays you £400 a month. You will not ask for more but the actual spend will be reviewed jointly at the end of each year and the contribution adjusted for the following year?

@db

This is what i've emailed to her over the past days..!
"I was thinking - if you say that the £4800 per year I give you to go towards the kids' uniforms and clubs and school trips (along with your expected similar contribution) DOESN'T quite cover it and leaves you short, I'm very happy for the arrangement to be swapped:
How does it sound YOU transferring ME £400 per month (into a separate account solely for the kids) and I'll manage as you do, but I'll also meet the extra costs you speak of (I.e I promise I won't ask you for ANY additional money)?

Thanks for giving it some thought"

And again yesterday...

"I have suggested to you that if you are unable to manage this fund appropriately, then I am willing to manage it (by you transferring me £400/month) to cover costs such as this.
You cannot have it both ways - you cannot keep receiving a significant sum for £400/month, and keep asking me for additional money for things like this."

Guess what her reply has always been....! (tip...it wasn't "sure.. YOU try being out of poceket for once..."!)

DrP

I just want to check I’m not being the dick here??!!!

Don't think you're being a dick, but you probably have screwed up by not doing your research on her before getting shacked up.

Don’t think you’re being a dick, but you probably have screwed up by not doing your research on her before getting shacked up.

LOLZ!!!
I mean, we got together like 17 years ago, and I left her 4 years ago... How was I to know at that time eh 😉

DrP

So it's an agreement between you and your x not the courts or CMS?
If so do what I typed stick it a fund for the kids and thank me later. (About 18 years later).
Just buy the uniforms yourself ECT it won't cost that much

To me ( and i have no real experience in the area) your email sounds very passive aggressive and the whole tone feels " off"

You are not giving her money. You are giving her a contribution to the costs of the kids

Imo either get everything done by csa or go back to mediation for a watertight agreement. A good deal is one where everyone is happy

Sometimes in these situations you just need to bite your lip and move on keeping things as amicable as possible, getting into the nitty gritty of it all is not going to help either of you.

@tjagain

You are not giving her money. You are giving her a contribution to the costs of the kids

Oh i completely agree... but in 'real practical' terms, I am giving her the money to manage. And my email probably is passive aggressive, but that's because I'm getting fed up of her demands!

Sometimes in these situations you just need to bite your lip and move on keeping things as amicable as possible, getting into the nitty gritty of it all is not going to help either of you.

Again, I agree - I like to think I do this (buying new school shoes after the summer hols, despite 'technically' this being the responsibility of the 'kid account holder'...)..but when it's a £5k dental bill I'm being asked for, enough becones enough!

EDIT - the £400/mth IS written in teh court finalised financial settlement agreement... you HAVE to have somehting in that 'box' according to the mediator we used, so we agreed on this amount (for 2 kids..slightly less when eldest turns 18) to cover additional costs.

DrP

says she doesn’t need to explain anything to me…

She's absolutely correct.

Conversely, you don't need to give her any money.

… and yet you thought it relevant to mention the car and handbag.

I think it's relevant information in so far as it's an indicator of her financial security. I reject the common Daily Mail-esque narrative that rags on low income households because they have a wide screen* TV when for all we know that's all they have. But if she's swanning about in a - I don't even know how much a Tesla costs, fifty grand? - motor with a £5k handbag, then coming to her ex cap-in-hand wanting thousands for private dental treatment, to my mind this plants her firmly into "taking the piss" territory.

(* - like there's any other kind any more)

I don't post here any more but I pass through occasionally. I've met very few divorcees who are always rational and reasonably in how they deal with the other half and you aren't changing that view. Nobody ever solved arguments by email (or in internet forums - hence why I don't bother posting!). If you have a dispute and aren't able to solve it amicably between you - go back to mediation. However I think you've forgotten the most important people in this - your kids...

but when it’s a £5k dental bill I’m being asked for, enough becones enough!

1. Do you think the work is needed?
2. Does your kid think the work is needed?
3. Is £5k reasonable for what's needed (sounds a lot to me - and in my limited experience in a different part of the UK if the teeth were that bad it would qualify for NHS work).
4. Is there some other reason that makes this orthodontist preferable (e.g. if i had realised how much of a PITA taking my kid to the "nearest" NHS orthodontist who allocate their appointments at random, without consultation, in a location we can only get to by driving I might have preferred to use an orthodontist elsewhere that he could get the train/bus to himself rather than disrupt my day, especially if private patients got first dibs on convenient times!). If a factor like that is involved - can you help with logistics.

What nobody here will know is how cash-rich or otherwise you are. If you were still married (happily or otherwise) and these costs came up would there be any serious debate about sending them on ski trips or for orthodontics? If the answer is, "no, we would have the funds [usually either can be paid over time - there's no need to miraculously find a lump sum] and giving our kids the best has always been our priority" then you need to think about what has changed. Should she be contributing too - possibly, but none of us (likely even you!) actually know her financial position. It is unlikely she will welcome advice from an ex on budgeting, especially one who sends passive-aggressive messages. A more constructive approach might be:

"Sorry if I came across as hostile, of course I want to help the kids, I was just surprised by the values involved and need to get my head around what's needed and when, so I can make my fair contribution. I'm still getting used to budgeting for just me. Perhaps we could have an open and frank discussion about all the costs for the kids and see if that £400/month is really enough for my share. Given the way inflation is going, we should probably try to work out a budget for each year so we both can see what will be needed when".

@poly saves the thread. You should post here more.

yeah, that's a prettyy good response and viewpoint.. thanks.

I honeslty feel i'm being blackmailed TBH!

DrP

As Poly says (and very well puts it), ive never met many couples who have broken up amicably, and the subsequent years while the children are still children descend into psychological warfare and oneupmanship.

All you can do is to ensure the children arent affected as best you can and make sure that they dont suffer in this melee.

ive never met many couples who have broken up amicably, and the subsequent years while the children are still children descend into psychological warfare and oneupmanship.

Well, just so you know, there are some who are capable of being completely amicable. And put the kids first.

Well, just so you know, there are some who are capable of being completely amicable. And put the kids first.

@desperatebicycle

Hmm.. I'm sure you don't mean to pass comment on my care for my kids, but it kinda feels that way... However, these 2 factors (divorcee amicability, and individual parent care for the children) can be mutually exclusive...

Handing over wads of cash to my Ex when she demands it isn't necessarily in the best interest of my children, nor me.. even if it's touted as 'in the kids best interest'.
What if the role was reversed.. what if I said I wanted to buy my son a new TV for his room at our house, and asked HER for half the cash... would you berate HER parenting skills for telling me to do one and fund it myself (which, of course, I DO fund myself, and DON'T assk her for money for this sort of thing!)

Additionally - despite the ex threatening to 'tell the children all about this and how terrible I am', I can reassure you that I don't involve them in any of this myself.

DrP

Anyway - i came her to get alternate views and opinions than my own, and have a few take home messages to think about.

Thank you all.

DrP

agree with poly and in a similar vein - it looks to me like have different views on the payment situation and the 'arguing' from each saice isn't going to get anywhere.

I would look to keep it simple and set (reset?) the expectations - and then stick to the line and let her know along the lines of

Principle 1 - The £400/month is £400 above what a standard 50/50 settlement would get and is made in good faith to help (not cover) costs for every day and one off expenses.

Principle 2 - If there is a significant additional expense for then we can consider extra contributions but
a) we must agree the commitment to pay in advance
b) we agree what the terms of my extra pay is
i.e. what poly says

Principle 3 - It is agreed and understood that we are both doing what we can to support the kids. We should leave the kids entirely out of the 'who pays what' discussion - this is matter is entirely for the parents and should be kept that way.

i would have thought it was obvious that the kids have no involvment in these discussions, which DrP has said that they arent. So little point bringing that up. If either parent uses them as leverage, then shame on them.

And it certainly doesnt feel like the kids are suffering or hard done by.

ultimately if a joint household income is halved by the couple splitting up, then sacrifices have to be made, budgets need to be reassessed and realigned with the new household income.

Its not a case of well i want XYZ, i will just demand the ex pays for it (whether thats DrP's ex demanding it from him or him demanding it of her).

She is already getting £400 a month MORE than she should.

Whilst we would all like to provide the very best we can, that all has to be done in a sensible manner.

She clearly likes this level of 'control' over things, hence her inability to share where the £400 a month goes or ability to discuss things further.

Whilst there might be a more diplomatic way to put things, i feel your frustration DrP and sometimes a bit of venting helps massively.

I often look back at my ex and wonder how i was in love with such a Jeremy Hunt 😛

talk to a specialist family lawyer. dont dick about.

for a couple of hundred quid it could save you loads and put your mind at rest and draw a line on other demands.

the lawyer can set out a letter for you and based on legal fact that she cant argue. It may be that shes right but only the lawyer can determine this based on your current arrangements and agreements. Be honest with the lawyer.

it defo takes a load off your mind knowing you have legal advice to back up any discussions. it did for me anyway.

FWIW, the ex and i have a joint account for each of the kids, that we can both see and use (but the accounts are actually attached to me, as it was my idea.)
We both pay in an amount every month and anything major they need (bikes, shoes, clothes, holidays, childcare) comes out of that. Day to day stuff, we generally cover ourselves.

We can both see *every* transaction made on that account and query if necessary, in the 4 odd years we've had it, i think i've asked about two transactions.

And she's asked about one, i know this, as a standing order was set up incorrectly by my bank... *facepalm*.

Reminds me, i've got to take a bit out for the clothes i bought for their holiday.

Also, when they are old enough, there will be a nice chunk of cash for them to have.

@mert
that's a great arrangement, and one I would aspire to.

If the roles were reversed, I'd be putting the £400/month into an account for the kids, using it to meet all these needs we've discussed (bearing in mind, it would have had over £25k put into it...) and then when they turn 18/16 whatever, hand it over to them...

'home clothes', holidays (with each new family) are each met by the prespective parents.

@v7fmp
Cheers!!

DrP

Yeah, we don't have the home clothes/school clothes issue here, but we do pay for our own respective holidays.
Though the ex is planning to take the kids on a big one in a couple of years, so will probably contribute to that as they'll be gone 3 or 4 weeks, and they are unlikely to get another opportunity like that.

She is already getting £400 a month MORE than she should.

What makes you say that?

Sorry not much to add other than it is probably reasonable to ask genuinely and sincerely your ex wife why the orthodontic work cannot be done under the NHS?

Both parents have cars so location of an NHS practice shouldn't really be an overriding problem unless there are other facts that you dont know of to consider with that. If its additional time and inconvenience to travel, personally I would feel a lot of time and inconvenience would be needed to justify a £5,000 offset.

Our son is 14 and has just been accepted with very little hassle for a brace under the NHS. It's a classic wired type of brace which are the only ones the NHS offer, but I understand are more effective than the clear plastic invisible types that you have to pay privately for anyway.

If there is a wait for NHS orthodontics in your area, if it is just a brace that required and your son isn't suffering medically or pain as a result then at only 12 there is still plenty of time to suffer a waiting list.

Our son is a vian little bugger but he even said it would be madness to pay thousands for an invisible brace. He does need a brace or otherwise with the way his teeth are growing they will give him problems later on but his friends with braces all get the wired types so he isn't worried.

It meant a day off work for me to take him for the initial consultation but as I never use my holiday allowance anyway no real trouble really and it was good to spend some time alone with him grabbing some lunch and looking around the shops when done. He's just had a second visit for moulds to be taken and then it's one more visit in august to have the brace fitted. Of course there will be ongoing visits but my wife ties those into the school holidays.

It's just a guess but I suspect even most private practices dont open weekends so to pay would require a similar level of inconvenience for us as parents and often it's the same practice whether it's being done privately or NHS.

I appreciate it's not much to add on the whole who should pay for what debate but if this teeth mater has been a last straw issue, perhaps clearing up at least this one item factually and reasonably with your ex might start to help iron out the other items fairly for both.

If the roles were reversed, I’d be putting the £400/month into an account for the kids, using it to meet all these needs we’ve discussed (bearing in mind, it would have had over £25k put into it…) and then when they turn 18/16 whatever, hand it over to them…

this is a bit high horsey. you are trying to do the right thing, which is ace, but you cant tell other people what to do or how to live their lives. you need to move on. She will do things that annoy you and, quite probably, vice versa.

Get legal advice over the money/payments etc and get something in writing as an agreement you can both abide to. it will save a lot of aggro and fingerpointing.

when i was making payments it started out as a mutual agreement, to save going through the cms and because we thought we could do this amicably, but ended up formal cms agreement as it just took away all teh doubt for both of us.

@thegeneralist - as if a child stays with each parent an equal amount of time, the costs are split evenly, therefore no 'maintenance' payment is required.

Not by law anyway, so DrP's gesture of goodwill shouldnt be expected by her, she should be grateful he is going above and beyond the letter of the law, rather than demanding more.

Obviously there are moral choices that can be considered, IE if she was on the breadline and the £400 would give them a better quality of life, but it sounds like that isnt the case.

Ultimately folks can do what they like, but i am all for a fair and equal outcome in situations like this and to me, one party is taking the urine with financial demands.

as if a child stays with each parent an equal amount of time, the costs are split evenly, therefore no ‘maintenance’ payment is required.

its really bloody hard to get a true 5050 split though. just because of life.

hence the need for him to get proper legal advice. what he has provided in the past may have an impact on what he needs to continue to provide etc, standards of living are a factor as well as other bits and pieces. its a bloody minefield and an internet forum isnt really he place to get relevent advice as everyones situation is different.

The OP doesnt have to get legal on the partner but just get some formal actual advice baed on their situation and chat things through so he knows where he stands legally in the greater scheme of things. it was a huge help for me.

 if a child stays with each parent an equal amount of time, the costs are split evenly, therefore no ‘maintenance’ payment is required.

Some of the costs are split. Schooliform and school trips aren't in this case. They are taken from this £400

seems to me like you need a joint transparent bank account.
and then to take the time to review it.

Equal money goes in monthly, you can both take money out to pay for the kids bits and bobs

query anything that is suspected inappropriate.

@thegeneralist - but is it? as far as i can tell, DrP pays that money, but then also covers lots of other stuff. Yet she is still asking for more. If school clothes, trips etc need to be split, its very easy to sort out. School trip X is costing £££, please may i have half. Plus, it must be a ruddy posh school to require nearly £5000 a year for school clothes and trips.

but, as i said, there is plenty of moral compass at play, so its not clear cut.

As @VanHalen says, proper legal advice is the best course of action.

And a joint account would seem like a great idea.

Basically.... all the best DrP, i hope you get it sorted with minimal pain!