[Closed] STW and car driving

Is it 'cos they are all frustrated home counties middlemanagement / sales / It with small willies?

That's more or less it. It's part the modern malaise of people thinking they've a right to do anything they want just because they want to do it.

Is it 'cos they are all frustrated home counties middlemanagement / sales / It with small willies?

That's more or less it. It's part the modern malaise of people thinking they've a right to do anything they want just because they want to do it.

Yes, both of those.

Largely, however, I think it's because we refuse to acknowledge the pace of decline of Britain.

You're in league with Smee.....

I've always likened STW to the Gents at my local pub........It's where all the pricks hang out.

I am in middle management, and I can't comment upon the size of my appendage, as I don't spend any time checking out anyone else's!

I tend to drive with respect for other road users and am a believer in the Karma bank, so it isn't up to me to avenge any rubbish driving.

But then I have never owned a BMW

Why do so many people on here defend bad driving? speeding, undertaking, aggressive driving generally?

Fat blokes with small willies who learned to drive on their PCs right after achieving the grade of Nintendo Ninja Supercommando?

Drinkers of too much coffee?

Mummy didn't love them?

Gawd knows? I just wish they'd all go and have their epiphany (crash?) without taking out someone else.

I have no problem with appropriate speed, but usually people who think other drivers are idiots are not very discerning about what is appropriate.

Speeding in the right place and time is fun if hard to defend but undertaking on the motorway - never acceptable

Half a dozen people on the other thread defended flashing headlights aggressively to move a driver over and undertaking him above the speed limit if he didn't move over.

Reckless driving at best and dangerous if the cop is feeling stroppy

Edit - glad to see there are some non cock drivers who just avoid the stress of the driving threads

undertaking on the motorway - never acceptable

Not entirely, TJ. Sometimes it's the best way to deal with someone who sits in the outside/middle lane. Far better than sitting up their chuff and flashing your lights at them!

You're in league with Smee.....

That's fightin' talk that is 👿

What about when someone is sitting in the fast lane, hardly hitting 70, and has got two lanes of empty motorway to their left? If you have a fast car and undertake in the slow lane leaving one lane clear for the numpty to suddenly swerve into, which seems unlikely as they've just spent the previous 10 miles 'cruising' in the same lane, surely that's ok TJ? Please let me know as I'm going slow enough at the moment to access the net on my blackberry.

Is it 'cos they are all frustrated home counties middlemanagement / sales / It with small willies?

i am none of the above !!!

tj get over it ffs i didnt undertake him i stayed in the middle lane.

And stop calling me a cock or i will tell my mum.......... you cock

I find people react badly to being flashed 😯 but a quick flick of the right indicator tends to do the trick - less arsey, and more often than not gets the point across and leads to less hassle 😀

I have to agree with previous posts, undertaking can never be condoned ❗

Ramming lets them know you're serious but usually doesn't cause too much damage.

Speeding in the right place and time is fun if hard to defend but undertaking on the motorway - never acceptable

Half a dozen people on the other thread defended flashing headlights aggressively to move a driver over

You see the problem isn't people defending bad driving, it's the definition of what bad driving is.

Kettle, meet pot 😛

TJ, you rant on all sorts of topics unrelated to cycling, and this thread is premised on what you view as "good driving".

Some times you do have to undertake, to avoid a big motorway blockage. Do wait a while before doing it though and make sure it's safe. Don't just come ramming up and fly by on the inside at speed tho like some do - it's frigging dangerous.

On a serious note, has everybody else found that he or she has mellowed with age?

In my mid-late twenties, I'd fly off the handle in the car really easily. I was doing a 40-50k miles a year job, driving a fairly powerful fast car, thought I was king of the road, never did anything wrong, nobody was better at driving than me except the rest of the less than average skill drivers....you know the schtick.

Now that I'm older, I just take it easy, nothing's more important than just getting there safely, in one piece. I try my best to stick to the rules of the motorway, probably exceed the limit occasionally, try to maintain lane discipline, watching in wonder as all the nutters treat the road like it's some kind of battlefield, only to see the same nutters one or two cars ahead at whatever slip road I'm exiting.

I come along behind a slightly doddery old git in front of me and think "that's my mum, that is". She's a bit doddery now, and has had one accident in all her years of driving (the old bump into the car in front in crawling traffic) but now I see how nervous she gets when "young" drivers drive up her arse, overtake stupidly, flash lights. In her seventies, other parts of life seem to fly by at the speed of light for her. But still, she manages, doesn't crash, pays eff all insurance because of it. So, I hang back, and just let the old folk to it. They have to get around and the buses are shit. And they've been around a lot longer than me.

We're all like rats in a ****in cage these days. We co-exist until there just isn't enough space for us, then suddenly every other guy is "trying to nick your spot in the line of traffic" or undertaking you or generally being a far worse driver "than me".

Spread a little love around folks...every day, let one other car out that you normally wouldn't (even if for me, that means at least once every day, I'll let a 4x4 out into traffic or flash them to pull out on the m-way...painful, but just do it). And then let one other car out that's just a very uncool car. It's easier to be nice and just relax...you'll feel a lot better for it. Calm down everyone. It's only metal, plastic and tarmac. It ain't really [i]that[/i] important.

[i]This is a cyclists forum WTF does this happen?[/i]

Because some cyclist also drive cars.

it's the definition of what bad driving is

If you driving in such a way that gives somoene the opportunity to undertake, then 9 times out of 10... you're guilty IMO.

I can't stand the pedants that sit in the outside lane....
'I'm doing the national speed limit, why should I pull over'.

As the eminent American street poet Ludacris puts it....

'I'm doin' a hundred on the highway
So if you do the speed limit, get the FwCK outta my way!'

thinking, if your doing 70 and the car outside of you is doing 60 are you undertaking or are you making progress?

rule 163 highway code

stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left

how many cars is a queue? and how slowly is slow?

I worked in sales middle management a few years ago andI once got pulled on the M4 doing 100 undertaking an unmarked police car. I don't live in the homecounties though.

I do admit that I was driving like a cock, and I have mellowed a bit with age. No longer work in sales either 🙂

Deadlydarcy, that post brought a tear to my eye!, Well done.
BTW, this isn't a cyclists forum
Its mostly a mountainbikers/trail centre forum 😉

Ok, so its against the highway code to undertake for one sensible reason, because the driver in the right hand overtaking lane will not expect anyone to be traveling faster up the inside, and will potentially not properly check the mirrors before moving over to the left. Thats the one and only reason you shouldnt do it, and why its acceptable when traveling in heavy congestion, when the drivers in the right hand lane can clearly expect the traffic in the left lanes may be moving quicker, and so will give moving back to the left the due care and attention it deserves.

So now consider some tit hogging the outside lane who know's your behind them and would like to pass. Why would they not move over other than to be obnoxious barstuards. They know your there, you can see that after miles and miles of clear motorway they refuse to move over, at which point its fair to say that undertaking cautiously is only a fair thing to do and that the car in front should reasonably expect such behaviour. Sure, its perhaps only stooping to their level, but why show them anymore respect then they have for the trail of traffic beind them?

The incident in question on the previous thread was a typical example of such moronic lane hoggin behaviour, with a "I own the right hand lane" attitude and "ill be ****ed if anyones getting past and if you dare undertake me....." In which case, why show them any respect at all? If they want to be funny buggers, and i'm willing to risk an undertake, If the worst happens, I sure as hell wont feel any guilt for their loss.

I have stopped travelling back to the North West on a Friday now as it stresses me out, I take the Friday off and go on the Thursday night instead. The standard of driving has severley taken a nose dive. I passed my test in '96 and have travelled the length and breadth of the country courtesy of being in the forces. I absolutely hate driving distance now as it's like warfare, people are so damn aggressive behind the wheel.

Singletrackworld users seem to really enjoy contradicting. I don't know why. I do it myself. Forums are bad for it but of all the ones I've used, this is by far the worst.

It doesn't matter what you say, more will contradict than support. It's odd - most STWer I've met aren't like it in person.

If someone mentioned the high-speed performance of Mattracks in real life I wouldn't dream of correcting them as it would simply be a dickheadish thing to do. Yet my last STW post did just that.

The temptation to correct people from behind the keyboard is so great, I wonder if it maybe satisfies something within us all. Perhaps it makes our otherwise largely impotent and frustratingly inconsequential male middle-class existances feel that tiny bit more worthwhile.

In much the same way an overweight greasy-skinned, geeky virgin might scoff disdainfully at your idiocy when you mispronounce a character's name from Star Trek, it's not often the modern man gets a chance to kick ass, put someone down and victoriously lord it up over their fallen corpse, so when a chance arises to take a little victory, however brief, we snatch it with both hands and go full bore down the broadband cable.

Forums innit.

God I talk some crap on here.

Why do people feel the need to start a thread about how other people have replied on another thread ?
Now that really confuses me,but that isn't that hard tbh.......

[i]Singletrackworld users sem to really enjoy contradicting[/i]

Nail. On. Head.
Pillocks.

Singletrackworld users sem to really enjoy contradicting

Nail. On. Head.
Pillocks.

Can't remember the last time I heard anyone called a pillock,LOL ! 😆

Because there is a large expanse of grey between the black of dangerous driving and the white of perfect courteous driving?

+1 for what deadlydarcy said.

He is right, you know.

It doesn't matter what you say, more will contradict than support. It's odd - most STWer I've met aren't like it in person.

[img] [/img]

Talking of courteous driving - can the non-use of indicators be defended?

I followed this Mini 4 junctions yesterday, not one indication. (the Mini, not me)
Right turn into a main, left turn into a minor, right into main, across roundabout. no flashing amber lights on any side. Nothing.
I don't understand that at all.

A BMW Mini.... they'll have been using their wipers you dumbass!

Singletrackworld users sem to really enjoy contradicting

Middle class insecurity and middlemanagement/IT dept/professional underachieving?

That's my excuse! 😛

Speeding in the right place and time is fun if hard to defend but undertaking on the motorway - never acceptable

Half a dozen people on the other thread defended flashing headlights aggressively to move a driver over and undertaking him above the speed limit if he didn't move over.

Actually no-one defended aggressive headlight flashing, they defended the use of headlights to show you're behind someone - the method suggested by the highway code ("110

Flashing headlights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users."). No-one suggested tailgating or repeated flashing like a nutter. No-one defended undertaking at at speed either, they defended undertaking carefully. You just like trolling. What's your excuse? So much of a troll, in fact, you're starting another thread on the matter!

(not middle management, middle aged, fat, IT related or stuck in an office, or on too much coffee, and my appendage is of normal proportion).

Talking of courteous driving - can the non-use of indicators be defended?

Not really, unless there's no-one about to see it, but it's hard to find times when that's the case.

Is it not an interesting point that a large number of people in the other thread felt it was fairly reasonable action (up to the point where they raced off together) AND are cyclists that maybe they're not the unusual ones and that it's not that dangerous, but that your argument may be less of a strong case?

Ha ha.....nice one. Let's start a new thread to talk about those morons on that other thread who don't agree with me.

No one argued the case for 'aggressive flashing' of headlights.

TJ, you seem to conveniently ignore comments/questions that mess up your 'i am right, holier than thou' opinion.

Please answer this (I asked it in the other thread and you ignored it there): you are driving on the A1 from the M25 all the way to Sheffield in the early hours of the morning. You catch up with someone doing 50mph in the outside lane just south of the Hatfield tunnel). This car refuses to move over at all and remains in the outside lane.
Do you:
[b]a)[/b] slow down to match the other cars speed and sit quite contently in the inside lane, even though you are now doing 20mph slower than you ideally be doing & have a long journey ahead of you?
[b]b)[/b] wait a while and then undertake the car using as much care and concentration you can muster, along with a hefty does of right foot to get past as quickly as you can
[b]c)[/b] reply stating you would do "a" when really you would do "b" as it would mess up your flawed 'holier than thou' arguement?

For once I agree with TJ, too many idiots on the road.

Maybe it's just too many cars and the probability of seeing a moron is likely?

Defend stupid driving? no way.

Just take out legal cover and sue their butts. I'm already suing a guy driving to close, on his mobile and went into the back of my car injuring me and writing my car off.

Idiot!

Stumpy. I would do A - as I know that driving safely only will cost yo a few seconds.

Al - its not my interpretation of safe driving - its the law. Undertaking is never right and yo must know that.

"yo"?

You ain't gonna confuse me wid ya street jive, honkie!

Stumpy. I would do A - as I know that driving safely only will cost yo a few seconds.

TJ, would you... really? In theory it would actually cost you more like an hour in total travel time if the scenario played out for the entire journey. It's a 150+ mile journey, you are clearly arguing for the sake of it here.

mrmo - Member

thinking, if your doing 70 and the car outside of you is doing 60 are you undertaking or are you making progress?

rule 163 highway code

stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left

how many cars is a queue? and how slowly is slow?

I asked this very question of one of the Senior Observers during my IAM training.

He said that if the driver in the overtaking lane was doing 60 or less, he would perform an undertake if it was safe to do so. He would also give a toot on the horn and a single flash of the lights to alert the other driver of his presence.

Al - its not my interpretation of safe driving - its the law. Undertaking is never right and yo must know that.

It's not the law, you're wrong.

you are clearly arguing for the sake of it here.

And in that scenario, what would happen if a third driver came up behind them? It would end up a rolling roadblock 🙂

TJ, would you... really? In theory it would actually cost you more like an hour in total travel time if the scenario played out for the entire journey. It's a 150+ mile journey, you are clearly arguing for the sake of it here.

TJ arguing for the sake of it? Well I never... 🙄

EDIT: beaten to it by 7 seconds...

TJ arguing for the sake of it?

Normally he has a point, this is just ridiculous.

[s]Normally[/s] Occasionally he has a point, this is just ridiculous.

There, fixed it for you 😉

We all have a point occasionally. It's just that sometimes not everyone agrees with the point being made. I don't recall TJ having a point more regularly than most other forum users 😉

The southern yeti - yes I would. it never cost more than a few seconds and rarely that. I have seen accidents caused by tailgating.

I have come up behind a slow car in the outside lane and watched in my mirrors a long line of cars building up behind me. I have dropped into the middle lane and let the queue clear. Within 5 miles I was back infront of the same car I was in front of when I dropped into the middle lane so that cost me no time at all.

I have also had a very near miss in this situation. On my motorbike I was in a queue in the outside lane and all the cars were far too close together. I dropped into the middle lane. Near the front of the line someone hit the brakes. the car that was behind me hit the car infront as they concertinaed together.

My safety comes first. NO undertaking, no getting tangled up in lines of cars too close together. Relax and let it flow. It costs youno time.

Coffeeking - undertaking on the motorway is always illegal unless its a traffic jam and you will be prosecuted for reckless if not dangerous driving.

Don't you live in Scotlandshire TJ? The only place I've ever seen those very sensible signs telling you to watch your mirrors and pull over to allow queues to clear as impatience causes accidents is on the A9. Presumably the people who put those signs there agree with the laws of physics that if you travel at a slower speed, it will take you longer to get somewhere too...

TJ you like a debate, accept the theoretical situation proposed.

150 mile journey, 3 in the morning very little other traffic.

Person in outside lane doing 50 mph will take 3 hrs to get there.

You (well me) prepared to bend the law wants to do 75mph, I'll get there in 2 hrs.

A few seconds? Or an hour?

Honestly, there seem to be a few (well more than a few) TJ haters on here, but I normally think you've got a point. Here you're alternative view based on knowledge of your own experience is just utter nonsense.

You like every other sensible person, would move to the inside lane and undertake, you would, surely.

No I wouldn't - because I know that that person will not be there for the whole journey. Thats my experience. They will get out of the outside lane eventually or someone else will come along and bully them out of the way.

Seriously - I just missed being involved in a serious accident in that sort of situation and it scared me. I will not sit in lines of cars too close together and I will not undertake

Tailgating is 100% stupid. Undertaking has its place it's a calculated risk that [u]most[/u] drivers are more than competent enough to take.

TJ - Do you ever overtake on A or B roads? Or do you worry that the person in front who has been consistantly staying on the same side of the road will suddenly swerve into the oncoming lane that you are about to use?

Why am I even trying to reason with you??

I have also had a very near miss in this situation. On my motorbike I was in a queue in the outside lane and all the cars were far too close together. I dropped into the middle lane. Near the front of the line someone hit the brakes. the car that was behind me hit the car infront as they concertinaed together.

Sometimes TSY yes. I am less anxious about it than I used to be having realised how little time it saves and as I don't drive a lot these days I am a bit rusty so I tend to try to work out if there is much point. If the road is busy I tend not to bother because I know thqat I'll just end up behind another car a mile or two up the road.

Mind you some of the motorcycling speeding got a bit silly. 300 a road miles in under 4 hrs, 240 mixed motorway and A road miles in 3 hrs etc etc.

From teh highway code: Note the wording has changed and this clearly says that the undertake of a car in the outside lane is wrong

# only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
# stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left

"Should", not "Must", so not illegal. In any case it's nonsensical to think the second rule means that because you're in a queue in the right lane you can't change lanes into an empty one to your left. Once you're there it's just an interpretation of what "queue" and "slowly" means. I guess you'd be pushing it to suggest one car is a queue, but 60 is certainly "slow" for the right lane in a 70 limit. As soon as they have another behind them, that's a queue and you can overtake them on the left without breaking that rule.

where is the "should?"

163

Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You [b]should[/b]

* not get too close to the vehicle you intend to overtake
* use your mirrors, signal when it is safe to do so, take a quick sideways glance if necessary into the blind spot area and then start to move out
* not assume that you can simply follow a vehicle ahead which is overtaking; there may only be enough room for one vehicle
* move quickly past the vehicle you are overtaking, once you have started to overtake. Allow plenty of room. Move back to the left as soon as you can but do not cut in

Give vulnerable road users at least as much space as you would a car

* take extra care at night and in poor visibility when it is harder to judge speed and distance
* give way to oncoming vehicles before passing parked vehicles or other obstructions on your side of the road
* only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
* stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. [b]If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left[/b]
* give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car (see Rules 211-215)

taken from here: [url] http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070314 [/url]

Sorry TJ, but on this occasion you are not correct.

There is no queue on the right - it is a single car.

You are clutching at straws. The police prosecute for undertaking on motorways - usually for reckless driving sometimes dangerous.

But if you are behind it, it is no longer a single car, it is a queue. 😀

By the way. Have you taken any further driver training since passing your test?

You are clutching at straws. The police prosecute for undertaking on motorways - usually for reckless driving sometimes dangerous.

The only time I've been banned on STW was when I expressed a wish that the owner of a Focus ST/driving god killed himself at the wheel before killing anyone else with it.

Most of the contributors here are motorists first and cyclists second.

freddyg - Member
163

Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should

* not get too close to the vehicle you intend to overtake
* use your mirrors, signal when it is safe to do so, take a quick sideways glance if necessary into the blind spot area and then start to move out
* not assume that you can simply follow a vehicle ahead which is overtaking; there may only be enough room for one vehicle
* move quickly past the vehicle you are overtaking, once you have started to overtake. Allow plenty of room. Move back to the left as soon as you can but do not cut in

Give vulnerable road users at least as much space as you would a car

* take extra care at night and in poor visibility when it is harder to judge speed and distance
* give way to oncoming vehicles before passing parked vehicles or other obstructions on your side of the road
* only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
* stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left
* give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car (see Rules 211-215)

taken from here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070314

Sorry TJ, but on this occasion you are not correct.

As already said Rule 163 applies only when the traffic is moving slowly in queues. Slowly has been tested in the courts and in the case of NSL on a motorway / DC you need to be doing less than half the speed limit.

'Undertaking' in the case renton described is not a specific offence but it would immediately attract a pull and a minimum of a FPN for 'without due care'. In the case renton described quite possibly a summons for 'dangerous' especially if he had been clocked doing 100.

For the record, there are rare occasions when someone will deliberately sit out in Lane 3 at say 50 in free-flowing traffic - they too will get pulled and if they are doing it to deliberately hold people up also get a FPN for 'without due care and consideration', perhaps 'dangerous' even if they have for example deliberately slowed or 'brake checked' the one behind them.

Anyhow, back to the TJs original point, yes it's disappointing that these 'motoring' related threads do seem to degenerate into a flood of examples and supposed justification for bad driving.

It seems to be a more of a mountain biker trait, less so amongst people who ride the road regularly, even less so amongst commuters - I generalise of course.

Educator / analogue andy - thats what I don't understand why a cyclists forum is so full of petrol heads that will try to defend bad diving.

I just find this quite astonishing on here that bad driving is lauded and considered to be normal

I have seen (today) flashing headlights to move someone out of the way and undertaking defended. In the past speeding and using of mobile phones as well as an unwillingness to compromise car driving to get a better deal for cyclists and public transport users.

I just cannot understand the attitude from what is supposed to be a bunch of cyclists

I often ride to localish MTB events. The driving standards of the drivers of the 4X4 pickups with MTBs in the back is lousy. We were quite literally run off the road by a fellow MTBer on one occasion.

TandemJeremy - Member
...thats what I don't understand why a cyclists forum is so full of petrol heads that will try to defend bad diving.

(Joke, honest, I wouldn't make fun of fat boys who have to push their bikes up hills) 😆

push their bikes up hills

Push?... Push?.. Are you out of your fu(king mind?!! What the hell are uplift days for? Push, what a pr1ck!

havnt got time to answer , im road testing a toyota prius, so cant stop now to chat.

i love driving...so i drive way to fast often...but i do keep an eye out for cyclists...and give them a wide birth...treat them like horses

TandemJeremy - Member
Educator / analogue andy - thats what I don't understand why a cyclists forum is so full of petrol heads that will try to defend bad diving.

I just find this quite astonishing on here that bad driving is lauded and considered to be normal

I just cannot understand the attitude from what is supposed to be a bunch of cyclists

I'm astonished that you're astonished. It seems that you expect STW forumites to be different to any other part of the population. Remember, lots of folk on here view cycling as an activity that takes place away from the public road.

Its not that they are drivers - its the petrol head / clarkson tendency. I think they are more so than the general population and I expected less petrol head tendencies on a cyclist forum.

TandemJeremy - Member
Its not that they are drivers - its the petrol head / clarkson tendency. I think they are more so than the general population

Look at the demographics. Average for STW is 36, male.......

I expected less petrol head tendencies on a cyclist forum.

As above

TandemJeremy

but undertaking on the motorway - never acceptable

The usual absolute pish from you.

Tonight, driving home on a 3 lane motorway with a 70mph limit. I'm in the inside lane doing 60. In the middle lane up ahead there are 3 cars going about 50mph.

There's no way I'm swinging out from the inside lane across to the 3rd/ outside lane just to overtake these retards.

I'll just continue along safely undertaking them.

Have a read of analogue andys posts on the other thread

Undertaking is never acceptable. You would be done if he saw you.

Numpty

Edit
Infact see as you are hard of thinking here it is

AnalogueAndy - Member

"TandemJeremy - Member

Is undertaking justified then? "

Would take too long to explain the rare circumstances when overtaking on the left is permitted, with care, but no, 'undertaking' is not.

'Undertaking' is a very apt name for it. People don't expect to be passed on the inside and, if they do pull across, the 'undertaker' is at fault.

Far better as I already said, to hang back for a few seconds, avoid the conflict and invariably it sorts itself out.

I'll just continue along [s]safely[/s] [i][b]chancing my arm[/b][/i] undertaking them.

There, fixed it for you.

Undertaking is never "safe". You might get away with it (god knows, when I was a god of the road, I chanced it a few times, and thankfully got away with it), but it's not safe.

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