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AA has it right, anyone calling for Lancaster to go needs to remember where England were under MArtin Johnson.......
We had a slightly better win ratio and won a sx nations if I remember rightly? Not sure what SL and the league forward who's now in charge of our backs have yet managed to win?
the league forward who's now in charge of our backs
I was at the match with a school friend of Mike Catt's (fellow South African 😉 ) and I was asking him how it was we had a league forward with a poor record in Union on the senior coaching staff why Catt had a more junior role. I was no admirer of Catt as an international fly half but when he moved to centre he was more in his element and his creativity and passing where excellent
. I was no admirer of Catt as an international fly half but when he moved to centre he was more in his element and his creativity and passing where excellent
I must have missed that game.
I must have missed that game.
He played well at full back too.
I was at the match with a school friend of Mike Catt's (fellow South African ) and I was asking him how it was we had a league forward with a poor record in Union on the senior coaching staff why Catt had a more junior role
Did he furnish you with an answer?
Cirpiani is where he should be, in the wilderness. He is a talented player, was given a great chance was wasn't as good as he thought (found out against Boks in particular). Was unlucky with nasty injury but showed poor application generally and no discipline off the field. IMO not right in the head so that's it he's gone. He failed to grasp what was required at international level off the field in terms of preparation so he's had his chance, that ship has sailed.
Mostly true but he's matured and knuckled down the last couple of seasons and is still what? 26? He was poorly handled by MJ.
He went on the tour to NZ and acquitted himself well and has played some blinders for Sale this season. Not good enough it seems. After the RWC he'll be off to France, if he has any sense.
He's still the only English FH who can do this:
Edwards has never played union but is an excellent coach. I dont think it matters.
I dont think it matters.
You're right - it doesn't matter that Farrell came from league. It does matter that he is NOT an excellent coach.
BTW the best game of rugby I watched over the weekend was the NZ/Aus Rugby League 4 Nations final. Brilliant match.
He's still the only English FH who can do this:
George Ford not only can, but regularly does. Didn't rate him at Leicester, but damn good at Bath.
You're right - it doesn't matter that Farrell came from league. It does matter that he is NOT an excellent coach.
Agreed, however I just couldn't see how, with watching Saracens play a defensive, forwards only game while he coached there, that anyone could possibly think he would do any different for England. Rightly enough, with all the fire power available, England back line hasn't looked like a threat for the last few years. the players are there. They do it for there clubs. What is so wrong with the England set up that it prevents any playing of what's there and results in a game by numbers?
What is so wrong with the England set up that it prevents any playing of what's there and results in a game by numbers?
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They do it for there clubs. What is so wrong with the England set up that it prevents any playing of what's there and results in a game by numbers?
'puters. How else can you explain that, and despite the positive comments re Mike Catt, you rarely see the England 3/4 do anything other than pass down the line and fail to follow [s]ball carrier[/s] Mike Brown?
What is so wrong with the England set up that it prevents any playing of what's there and results in a game by numbers?
all teams play by the numbers.........or to a plan ...otherwise we would all be watching Fiji who are wonderful players but need a plan see Wales at the weekend.
Would any of the england back line get into the AB's or Boks? Brown maybe but that is it. You may have to face up to the fact that they aren't that good? I think any spontineity they have is coached and drilled out of them from an early age.
It's hard to see much from that Youtube vid, but I recon that try is as much to do with bad defending as any great play on Cipriani's. International defence's aren't going to make those mistakes on a regular basis.
Would any of the england back line get into the AB's or Boks?
Good question. I can see Tuilagi in there, maybe Brown but other than that, no I can't. Having said that, I can't help but think that Burrel, 12Trees, Ford, Cipriani, Yard, Wade, Strettle etc would actually be very good players if they were allowed to play an attacking game every so often and had the ability to try something that if didn't work out, didn't result in a potential team demotion. All the exciting players are allowed to play, look at the super 12/14/15 (whatever they are this week) and how ome of the Irish / Welsh boys have gone off the boil now that they are in the Top 14.
There's no doubt in my mind that the weekly grind of playing conservative rugby slowly strips a player of the ability to play a game that challanges those that do.
However, I've also watched players who are absolutely on fire for Leicester, go away to England training and come back with terrible facets to there paying. The step and pass scrum half is the most telling of these, something I noticed Care starting to do as well at the weekend. It's certainly something Harry Ellis and Ben Youngs picked up on international duty.
its tic tactical, draw defenders in for the pop pass to an oncoming forward (or Jamie Roberts if your Welsh).
put Ford, 12trees, Yarde and Wade in the England backline and every decent team will steamroller them
spontaneity doesnt help at that level the All Blacks are the least spontaneous team in world rugby, they create gaps and then exploit it, its all planned. England create gaps but often lack the basic skills to draw a man and pass to players in space.
case in point, fast forward to about 1hour 30 mins, last play look at where 1/2p starts near the ruck its flung wide and no one straightens so 1/2p can make the tackle. Awful play by pro players
Tuilagi no chance, a one trick bish bash bosh pony, Brown was exceptional last year but so far this year hasn't shone. It is the way england won the world cup, monster pack suck in all the defenders throw it out wide or rely on saint jonny to kick the inevitable penalties. england have never been a flair team. It is just the way they play.
Edwards has never played union but is an excellent coach. I don't think it matters.
@aa this is true, no doubt. But he started in club rugby learning his trade and if I correct focused on defense initially for England before making the move to Wales.
Brown (first choice) and Tuilagi (sub) would make AB/Boks backline IMO, so agree with those above.
Who would Brown replace????
Ha ha preface hits the jackpot, who indeed.
Who the hell is Preface 😆
The bloke who posted just before I did 🙂
Brown is a good player who had an exceptional season last year and is now showing that he's merely a good player again.
Foden is a far more talented player and it's another huge mistake leaving him out. Delon Armitage is up there too although he fails the d***head test.
No-one from the England back line would make the ABs. Tuilagi over Conrad Smith? You must be joking? OK Smith got burned by May but look at his other 83 tests where he was nigh on the perfect centre.
@Pigface - Dagg or le Roux, Brown would play 15. that's my unbiased opinion 😉
Delon Armitage is up there too although he fails the d***head test.
He must be really bad if both Brown and Hartley passed the aforementioned test.
its flung wide and no one straightens so 1/2p can make the tackle. Awful play by pro players
Perfect example. Brown demonstrates exactly how NOT to draw a man and give a pass.
1/2p is one out from the ruck when the ball comes out but still is able to knock himself out on Strettle. The long pass and players just shunting it wide ruined a stone cold chance.
Talking of rucks this is an interesting article on all the breakdowns in the Ireland SA game from last week. Its a bit technical but very interesting reading
Did I mention we are ranked 3rd in the world 😀
The long pass and players just shunting it wide ruined a stone cold chance.
That sentence could've been included in every England match report since 2004...........
Would any of the england back line get into the AB's or Boks?
Nope. But lets get this straight; NO players from the NH would break into the AB or Boks back line. Not a single one.
North and one of the welsh centres would be thereabouts for SA.
Oh and Fofana wouldnt look out of place for the all blacks imo.
NO players from the NH would break into the AB or Boks back line. Not a single one.
I would suggest when fit
Jonathon Sexton
wesley fofana
George north
1/2p
anagallis_arvensis - Member
North and one of the welsh centres would be thereabouts for SA.
Ha Ha Ha very good...
@aa Fofana looked great against the ABs last year and I was expecting him to shine in the 6 nations yet he did very little
Jonathon Sexton
Wouldn't even make the AB bench. May make the bok bench.
wesley fofana
He really wouldn't
George north
Perhaps the only exception (for the boks)
1/2p
No chance whatsoever.
Neither welsh centres would make the bench of either team.
put Ford, 12trees, Yarde and Wade in the England backline and every decent team will steamroller them
And a bunch of quotes from later posts:
You're missing the point I was making. The players themselves have all the natural ability required. However - there is something in club level, and this seems to get worse at international level, that stops these players from becoming who they could be.
AA when I say 'playing what's in front', I'm not talking about spontaneity, I'm saying that you do the things coached because of the players against you lining up, and by doing them, you create the opportunities. However, you watch England and you'll see players doing things that make no sense whatsoever just because they've been told to, and the opponents are somewhere else, so they make bugger all sense! Reading Martin Johnson's autobiography, he talks about this and how ridiculous most of the set moves they used to teach are. I can't help but think there's a level of this still going on.
Jonathon Sexton
Wouldn't even make the AB bench. May make the bok bench.
wesley fofana
He really wouldn't
George north
Perhaps the only exception (for the boks)
1/2p
No chance whatsoever.
Neither welsh centres would make the bench of either team.
I fundamentally think all would have played against Scotland for the AB on Saturday.
Sexton really was outstanding against the Boks and is in the shortlist for world player of the year on form Carter is nowhere near form amd cruden missed some chances.
De Villiars has done nothing for a few years now, Roberts and/or Davies would do better jobs and would both suit the "style". I'd have North over either Pieterson or the current Habana
Fofana looked great against the ABs last year and I was expecting him to shine in the 6 nations yet he did very little
did any french player?
De Villiars has done nothing for a few years now, Roberts and/or Davies would do better jobs and would both suit the "style".
To be honest, Roberts hasn't done anything for just as long and Davies sparkled for the Lions but has never looked that good before or since. I can see a valid argument for North.
It's not a swipe; the ABs and the boks are the two best teams on the planet.
I fundamentally think all would have played against Scotland for the AB on Saturday.
Well they might well get into the 2nd XV.....
Roberts hasn't done anything for just as long and Davies sparkled for the Lions but has never looked that good before or since.
You must only watch England games then or only want a centre who scores tries.
1/2p is a fantastic player and just what Wales & Lions need but if you've got a reliable 10 to kick goals as ABs and Boks have then you don't need his kicking and of recent his carrying hasn't been great. Not only would he not get in their squads Williams would be pushing him for his spot in the Welsh squad if Biggar or Priestland were any use.
and of recent his carrying hasn't been great.
Hasnt played much more than 4 games since the last six nations.
All blacks goal kicking wasnt very reliable against England though. Carter is very good but Barett and Cruden are not that great.
Not only would he not get in their squads Williams would be pushing him for his spot in the Welsh squad if Biggar or Priestland were any use.
Biggar is a decent 10 and a very very good goal kicker, Williams is not anywhere near 1/2p's standard.
The reason 1/2p doesnt counter attack much for Wales is that the lack of kicking options from the wings means he has to stay back much more than a lot of fullbacks to cover kicks. He's not as good as any number of all black options or SA and Aus for that matter though.
Williams carries the ball better and just seems to ride challenges, his tackling is improved and he's got decent distance on his kick, he's not as reliable as 1/2p under a kick and he's not a place kicker. They're different players for the same position but if you've got a good 10 some of 1/2p's benefit is lost.
Williams carries the ball better and just seems to ride challenges, his tackling is improved and he's got decent distance on his kick, he's not as reliable as 1/2p under a kick and he's not a place kicker.
Williams is excellent under the high ball really brave, its what comes of being utterly mental but he is a brainless numpty, he looks good for Scarlets and he looked good against Fiji but he does nothing against better opposition. Halfpenny is a class fullback who has done it at the top level. Much as Williams is an abrasive nasty horrible lovable bandy legged rogue his top two inches are lacking.
Nowt wrong with that 😳
Steve Walsh is still an asshat 😀
You must only watch England games then or only want a centre who scores tries.
Forgive me for having an opinion. If Manu and Burrell were fit, I wouldn't take either of the welsh centres for England. I'd have north though. Please.
Personally I'd have North and Savea as the two best wingers in the world. On last years form, I'd have had Brown as the best 15 in the world....this year, I'd say he's not even been the best in England. On current form, I'd guess that Sexton is probably the best 10 in the world? 1/2p is probably the best place kicker. Dan Carter in any kind of form is quite simply the best 10 ever for me. Centre's, leaving aside Brad Barritt as being in a league of his own 🙂 I'd struggle to see any NH centre getting into either the Boks or AB sides....Fofana can make the bench possibly.
World xv anyone?
World 15
Folou
Savea
Not sure Conrad Smith has dipped
Gavin Henson
North
Cooper/an on form Carter
Dont know
Some big angry Saffa
Kaino
Warburton
Whitelock
Elsbeth
Fat lad 1
Fat lad 2
Fat lad 3
pretty good I'm sure you'll agree!
North is the only one that would add something to any other side, whether he is better than what that team has might be in question, but he is a very very good player and destined to be one of the all time greats.
Manu and Burrell were fit, I wouldn't take either of the welsh centres for England.
Good we werent offering them anyway!! England should stick to poaching saffas, kiwi's and those lovely Vunipola lads they're welsh.
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AA, your list sucks, it needs Kieran Read and Richie McCaw for a start. You can keep Kaino and Whitelock in.
That picture always makes me smile....the fact that he's a year older than the others as well as looking monumentally pissed off is a beautiful combination 🙂
Can't see much wrong with your world xv, Hovis is a world ahead of Maccaw at 7.....I've no idea why people call you one eyed at all 😆
Didnt pick Read as he's injured isnt he?
Would have Kuridrani at 13.
Warbutton? 😆
Folau
Talebula
C Smith
SBW
Savea
Sexton
A Smith
Read
McCaw
Kaino
Lawes
Attwood
Wilson
Hartley
Marler
Hartley 😯
Hartley
Well you gotta give the opposition a chance by going down to 14 men now and again.
TBH there are better individuals in the tight five from other sides but England's unit seems second to none. That and I couldn't be bothered picking any more....
Folou
Savea
Smith
SBW
North
Sexton/an on form Carter
Dunno, Care? That New Zealand bloke
Read
McCaw
Kaino/Wood
Whitelock
Etzbeth
Dunno
Mealamu
Woodcock/Corbs when fit
Folou
Savea
Smith
SBW
North
Sexton/an on form Carter
Dunno, Care? That New Zealand bloke
Read
McCaw
Kaino/Wood
Whitelock
Etzbeth
Dunno
Mealamu
Woodcock/Corbs when fit
Not bad, I could go with that, although I dont think Mealamu is that great anymore, Kaino is way better than Wood (who is a damn good player) but Kaino does defence like Lydiate and carries in open play like Tipuric whilst still able to make hard yards up the guts. oh and Care wouldnt be my choice at 9.
Obviously SBW stands for Sexy Boyo from Wales ie Gav!
Lawes
Attwood
Wilson
Hartley
Marler
a good number of those arent even the best in England let alone the world. Does anyone else think Lawes goes AWOL against good teams?
Lambs to the slaughter:
WALES TEAMLeigh Halfpenny (Toulon), Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Jonathan Davies (Clermont Auvergne), Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro), George North (Northampton Saints), Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Rhys Webb (Ospreys); Paul James (Bath), Richard Hibbard (Gloucester), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Jake Ball (Scarlets), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Dan Lydiate (unattached), Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues, capt), Taulupe Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons).
Replacements: Scott Baldwin (Ospreys), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Rhodri Jones (Scarlets), Luke Charteris (Racing Metro), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Mike Phillips (Racing Metro), James Hook (Gloucester), Liam Williams (Scarlets).
Hope Davies is fit, about as good as we can do, I would have started Phillips. Seems Priestland may have played himself out of contention, although Hook is covering 10,12,13 I suppose. No Gethin but then James will not be available for the SA game so Gethin likely to start that I suppose.
Well. Haskell for Vunipola, wiggles worth for Care, and Twelvetrees for the small bloke. ForReal? still 10.
Hardley lights my fire.... Haskell might go well but the fact he replaces 8 shows Lancaster is scared to move Robshaw IMO.
Does anyone else think Lawes goes AWOL against good teams?
I think Lawes was targetted by the ABs hence going off with concussion. I do take your point though, he's OK worth his place but doesn't stand out at the top level.
BTW love the world side featuring Cooper and Henson, made me smile 🙂
Haskell might go well but the fact he replaces 8 shows Lancaster is scared to move Robshaw IMO.
Disagree, I think wood is very lucky to retain his place on recent performances. Very surprised that Morgan isn't starting, bit unfair on him IMHO.
Cooper can be beyond brilliant, I love watching him play.
I'm very happy for him to be playing against England, he's too erratic.
To be fair I haven't been watching Wood. What's been wrong?
These guys are in the 23 that starting line up isn't announced yet. But I'm hoping Morgan will start with Haskell as replacement for Morgan I guess, with Burrel back to the club and Eastmond injured twelvetrees will be in. I reckon Yarde will be in for May as well.
I think that announces England attention to attack Samoa technically and clear the ball (hopefull) from defense.
He's been giving away a lot of penalties in areas he really shouldn't. The hask(tm) is a 6 in my eyes.
Bloody hell the cupboards really are bare at 12 aren't they? It's an embarrassment to english rugby that 36 is even considered.
Burrel is now fit and plays 12 in a very good attacking team. Anthony Allen at Leicester, Jonathan Joseph at Bath etc, all good players.
I'm fairly certain that Farrell will play at inside centre (as predicted a few pages ago). Lancaster (I think) had them there at age group rugby however it really says all that needs to be said that due to poor form, Farrell is looking likely to be moved out of position instead of being dropped.... unbloodybelievable!
Farrell is looking likely to be moved out of position instead of being dropped.... unbloodybelievable!
Indeed 😯
Dont worry you will put a hatfull on Samoa and the press will be happy again, it will all be sweetness and light and england will be world beaters again 😆
You're probably right pigface, however I despair. How can the largest pool of players produce this carp?
@tiny - because we have the wrong player in one very important position
How can the largest pool of players produce this carp?
Well I think its due to the relentless drudge of the Premiership, look at France the Top 14 compares to the prem and they are under performing too.
What we need is a world based season with time for domestic competitions and time for international competitions and have them separated in the way they do in NZ and SA etc.
@tiny - because we have the wrong player in one very important position
but the only other option is Ford and he aint proven