You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Màiri McAllan impressed me with how she dealt with very hostile attacks in committee from pro hunting shills which included Fergus Ewing
Of the candidates I know anything about she seems the best but my knowledge is thin
Also for balance re TJ and The Scotsman and cobblers – The National is the deranged unthinking Yes Scotland equivalent!
Oh I agree - hence the comment "the scotsman makes the National look unbiased"
Herald is probably the most balanced of the Scots press but the Scotsman is awful
To be fair, The National doesn't try to pretend it's neutral on the subject.
Back on the subject of the next leader, I hope that whoever they are can move the debate away from the mechanisms of independence and back to the subject of independence.
By that I mean, decide on a strategy and then stop debating the strategy. Instead, focus on the benefits of independence and keep party discipline to avoid getting into debates with Unionists about how we're going to get there.
I think that would leave the door open to another independence party, either one that is more extreme or one that is more gradualist depending on where the SNP land but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. A pro-indy vote is a pro-indy vote and I don't like it when a single party is dominant on any subject.
I hope the SNP decides on an aggressive strategy and a new gradualist party emerges. Hopefully Alba will then disappear and Salmond can go back to RT.
I think that the subject of the mechanism should be a debate for Yes supporters while debates with No voters should stick to the pros and cons of independence.
Anyone else hear the one-time playing of Ruth the Mooth's statement on BBC radio yesterday around lunchtime?
It was, as far as I can recall, wholly positive and complimentary. I nearly fell off my perch.
No doubt this positive perspective is the reason why no further quotes or plays of the statement will be tolerated by our almost entirely biased media!
Anyone else hear the one-time playing of Ruth the Mooth’s statement on BBC radio yesterday around lunchtime?
It was, as far as I can recall, wholly positive and complimentary. I nearly fell off my perch.
I missed it but it doesn't surprise me. Ruth is just not a good fit for the current incarnation of the Tory party.
Can I also suggest that D Ross is at best an "average" linesman.
Ruth was very complimentary about Nicola Sturgeon.
Maybe currently being on holiday in Tenerife had mellowed her out a bit?
Its a little absurd how the BBC use the Scots in Westminster as if they are in charge - just because they are available that decision is not Flynns to make
Can I also suggest that D Ross is at best an “average” linesman.
Unless you're a rangers supporter, then he's one of the best.
There's no satisfaction in this for me.
I think we missed the best chance to have a second indyref. I am not satisfied with any of the suggestions put forward now. I wish the SNPs internal democracy was stronger, but imperfect as it is there's a chance to examine them all thoroughly, to pick the least worst option and importantly the new leadership will have to endorse conferences choice so there will be no squirming and claiming "this policy was adopted before I became leader"
Fundamentally we need to persuade more people, and the unionists need to accept that roughly 50% of Scots are to put it mildly unhappy with the constitutional status quo
I always loved it when Ian Blackford stood up in Westminster to question the PM. And judging from the reaction in the house so did a great deal of others.
It always felt like the PM was the naughty pupil up in front of the headmaster, and trying to talk his way out of a beating 😆
it needs to be someone from lower down the ranks and preferably not a “pale, male and stale”.
Scotland is 96% pale, 50% male, and ageing...
https://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/census-results/at-a-glance/
There’s no satisfaction in this for me.
I think we missed the best chance to have a second indyref. I am not satisfied with any of the suggestions put forward now. I wish the SNPs internal democracy was stronger, but imperfect as it is there’s a chance to examine them all thoroughly, to pick the least worst option and importantly the new leadership will have to endorse conferences choice so there will be no squirming and claiming “this policy was adopted before I became leader”
Fundamentally we need to persuade more people, and the unionists need to accept that roughly 50% of Scots are to put it mildly unhappy with the constitutional status quo
Fully agree. The circumstances that strengthened the cause of independence; Brexit, Sturgeon, endless tory corruption, will diminish once Starmer takes over. His current 'make Brexit work' stance will change once in. A centre left UK Government with public sector sympathies and closer EU ties, coupled with a less dynamic SNP leader will set support for the next indyref back by years. That ship has sailed and the next one hasn't been built yet.
I find it difficult to see Labour under Starmer as anything other than Tory light.
Also the SNP and the independence campaign are not one and the same so that ship is still there. It maybe needs a new captain or captains who might be politicians or might be from outside politics completely.
For avoidance of any doubt I mean peaceful protest organisations
Fully agree. The circumstances that strengthened the cause of independence; Brexit, Sturgeon, endless tory corruption, will diminish once Starmer takes over. His current ‘make Brexit work’ stance will change once in. A centre left UK Government with public sector sympathies and closer EU ties, coupled with a less dynamic SNP leader will set support for the next indyref back by years. That ship has sailed and the next one hasn’t been built yet.
I don’t see that - I don’t think Starmer will be good for Scotland tbh. When he was on “the rest is politics” podcast a few months ago - he ruled flat out talking with or working with the SNP elected mps on any matter. He was quite clear his intentions to ignore any elected representative from Scotland that weren’t Labour.
He is continuing the Tory approach of Scotland can send / elect anyone they want, but they’ll have no say in Westminster and be roundly ignored.
Starmer is hoping that just like Johnson/Truss/Sunak it doesn't matter who Scotland elect - he won't need 'our' votes/MP's...
When he was on “the rest is politics” podcast a few months ago – he ruled flat out talking with or working with the SNP
Isn't he just trying to avoid Tory 'In the SNP's pocket' campaign tactics?
Pretty obviously.
I find it difficult to see Labour under Starmer as anything other than Tory light.
Well most people won't, they will be seen as a sane alternative to the head bangers we have in charge at the moment.
I think the independence band wagon has sailed (and to mix metaphors hopefully sinks). A lot of the drivers have changed, a less obviously corrupt and self serving Westminster coming for one and the total shit show of Brexit for another. Anyone campaigning for independence who isn't slightly uneasy about how Brexit has gone should be having a quiet word with themselves, campaigning on sunlit uplands and faith in the future has a nasty habit of collapsing around your ears.
Starmer is little more than a political equivalent of chatgpt, on first glance it looks valid, sensible and informative yet on further examination it’s all a veneer.
So when Labour and Tories lied to us with "The Vow"
We were meant to believe it.
Now Labour is lieing
Isn’t he just trying to avoid Tory ‘In the SNP’s pocket’ campaign tactics
The Tories are meant to believe it in England but up here in Scotland we're to believe it's all one amazingly clever charade and socialist Sir Keir will be free with a mighty leap.
Aye Right
The Tories are meant to believe it in England but up here in Scotland we’re to believe it’s all one amazingly clever charade and socialist Sir Keir will be free with a mighty leap.
Aye Right
Agreed.
We’re in the position where in England it’s deemed a vote winner to tell the populous that any Westminster MP’s Scotland votes for should be and will be ignored.
It’s a fairly dispiriting situation
he ruled flat out talking with or working with the SNP elected mps on any matter. He was quite clear his intentions to ignore any elected representative from Scotland that weren’t Labour.
He is continuing the Tory approach of Scotland can send / elect anyone they want, but they’ll have no say in Westminster and be roundly ignored.
You never go into a campaign saying you'll collaborate or form a coalition with one of your competitors.
Scot Nats have got a weird idea that Scotland ought to be treated like some kind of equal partner to rUK, and anything less than that is being ignored and oppressed. Thats not the case. Scotland has about 1/10 of the population of the UK. It has smaller constituencies (ie more MPs per cap) than England and Northern Ireland. The SNP has 76% of the Westminster seats for Scotland and 45% of the votes. Devolved matters are already determined by Scottish legislators. Why should a UK PM put Scottish MPs from other parties at the head of the queue any more than they'd do it for MPs from the Midlands or rural constituencies?
campaigning on sunlit uplands and faith in the future has a nasty habit of collapsing around your ears.
Yep. Just ask the Better Together campaigners.
Scot Nats have got a weird idea that Scotland ought to be treated like some kind of equal partner to rUK, and anything less than that is being ignored and oppressed. Thats not the case. Scotland has about 1/10 of the population of the UK. It has smaller constituencies (ie more MPs per cap) than England and Northern Ireland. The SNP has 76% of the Westminster seats for Scotland and 45% of the votes. Devolved matters are already determined by Scottish legislators. Why should a UK PM put Scottish MPs from other parties at the head of the queue any more than they’d do it for MPs from the Midlands or rural constituencies?
Scotland, just another English region.
No, Scotland - just another part of the UK.
The Better Together campaign didn’t promise sunlit uplands at all. There were no big promises about anything - it was "more of the same". And the majority wanted that!
No, Scotland – just another part of the UK.
As you said, the vast majority of the UK is England.
Sounds like everyone, including you, would be happier if Scotland left. No more uppity Scots thinking they're more than they are.
it was “more of the same”. And the majority wanted that!
Yes, and then two years later England and Wales decided that more of the same was being taken off the table.
Gave up because the editing function of this forum is rubbish since we lost preview…
Sounds like everyone, including you, would be happier if Scotland left. No more uppity Scots thinking they’re more than they are
The problem is not with Scots (of which I am one, by the way). It's with a minority of Scot Nats that start from the premise that the UK is some kind of federation, and then demand their 5.4 million residents are given 25% of the vote. It's just nuts.
two years later England and Wales decided that more of the same was being taken off the table.
Or, old people decided that more of the same was being taken off the table. Or, rural areas decided that more of the same was being taken off the table.
Scottish voters got the same single vote as everyone else in the UK. Brexit won, which was stupid. Scottish independence, putting a customs barrier between it and its only land neighbour, creating a new currency or relying on a foreign currency, and all the other shit would be twice as stupid as Brexit now.
The problem is not with Scots (of which I am one, by the way). It’s with a minority of Scot Nats that start from the premise that the UK is some kind of federation, and then demand their 5.4 million residents are given 25% of the vote. It’s just nuts.
Depends on whether you feel that Scotland is fundamentally culturally and politically different from England. I do. I suspect you do too but you just prefer the cultural and political preferences of the English to your fellow Scottish citizens.
Scottish independence, putting a customs barrier between it and its only land neighbour, creating a new currency or relying on a foreign currency, and all the other shit would be twice as stupid as Brexit now.
Nothing would be twice as stupid as Brexit. Or rather, nothing you've listed would be twice as stupid as Brexit.
Sticking with the status quo and expecting the British Nationalist xenophobic temper tantrum we're all experiencing right now to end any time soon would be twice as stupid as Brexit.
Depends on whether you feel that Scotland is fundamentally culturally and politically different from England. I do. I suspect you do too but you just prefer the cultural and political preferences of the English to your fellow Scottish citizens.
Not really noticed a huge cultural difference in my time, have lived half my life in Scotland and half in England, yes you have the difference up in the Highlands, but that's just as much a cultural shift from the central belt or lower than it is to England.
Politically, well that can change in no time at all, i know that threads on here have Scotland as some left wing utopia politically, but there's also a good percentage of loyalists and nutters, just go to Glasgow on a rangers match day, or wander along with one of the many orange walks they have, or visit Ayrshire (if you dare!).
Politically, well that can change in no time at all,
Really? In which election in the last 40 years has Scotland voted in line with England?
The closest I can think of is when Labour won. In some of those elections, if the Scottish result had been repeated across the UK, the Tories would have 0 seats.
It can change but it's not been the same as England for decades, if it ever was.
@argee I'm from Ayr born and bred in Ayr actually. My family have strong connections to Highlands and Islands I don't think that's unusual. My mum is Catholic and a townie and my dad protestant and was brought up on a farm in the south of Ayrshire where his family had to cut peat for heating.
I know all this is anecdotal but.. I do find it hard to believe that there are not strong connections between southwest Scotland and the Highlands. Though these connections were not always peaceful.
I do find it hard to believe that there are not strong connections between southwest Scotland and the Highlands.
All i mean is it's no different to most of the UK, folk trying to make out Scotland is a completely different country is just not what i've seen, bar a few enclosures, but that's the same as across the UK again, you have areas that are insular in all four countries.
All i mean is it’s no different to most of the UK, folk trying to make out Scotland is a completely different country is just not what i’ve seen, bar a few enclosures, but that’s the same as across the UK again, you have areas that are insular in all four countries.
Having lived in Scotland, England, and Norway, I would say Scotland is far closer to the Nordic countries than to England. The Nordic countries and Scotland share a sense of collectivism and common weal that I just didn't find in England.
Saying that, arguing about cultural differences is probably pretty pointless. It's impossible to measure so all it will be is us talking about our general feelings. Not to be disregarded but impossible to measure or prove.
What can be shown empirically is the radically different voting patterns in Scotland and England over the last half century that are only diverging further the more elections we have.
Scotland tells itself a lot of things about itself some of these things have a big effect on Scotland but they are not always true. 😉
Tom Devine is a clever fella though.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/14/history-turned-on-tory-voting-scotland-thatcher-1980s
intheborders
Free Member
I reckon she’s just had enough – 8 years of taking a beating from the entire UK Govt & Establishment.
From the outside looking in, yeah, it doesn't seem like a fun job currently especially when you've just had the UK Gov' flex their muscles to back up a wizarding billionaire and some transphobes. It's got to be a dispiriting situation.
I quite liked her. I also like the SNP. But I am now hoping this allows Labour to gain a bit more ground in Scotland and thus have a better chance of taking control of the UK.
If the SNP do implode in the next couple of years Scottish Labour need to capitalise, it could be the difference between a Labour win and a big Labour majority down in Westminster. But that would definitely push Scottish independence off the agenda for another generation...
If Scottish Labour are going to have a chance, they’ll need to stop their electoral pacts with the Tories, standing members of the Orange Lodge as candidates and demonstrate they’re not a distant branch office of Islington. Until they get rid of the lies and stink perpetuated by the Better Together campaign, enough folks aren’t going to hold their noses long enough as they watch another round of Westminster-imposed spending cuts to the fabric of their communities
The Better Together campaign didn’t promise sunlit uplands at all. There were no big promises about anything – it was “more of the same
No, but there was the fear mongering about an independent Scotland being kicked out of the EU...
Scotland tells itself a lot of things about itself some of these things have a big effect on Scotland but they are not always true. 😉
Tom Devine is a clever fella though.
Yeah, interesting from the first vote, it would be interesting that the change occurred after that anit-Irish immigration vote, my dad was an Irish Catholic who arrived in Scotland in the late 60s and it wasn't a friendly place for immigrants by all accounts, i just see the changes due to the SNP and Greens option, down south there is no English Party, there are of course the mental right winger ones, but they take the dafties votes.
I just have never seen much of a difference between the countries, i was brought up around Perth, back in the 80s they were a tory area, you'd see Nicholas Fairbairn on his horse driven coach out seeing the public, then moved down to Glasgow for a while, never enjoyed living there, would definitely say it was not a socialist paradise there! Moved out to the central belt and it was pretty normal again, but been down south in Somerset, Wiltshire and Bristol on and off over the last 20 years, probably don't see much of a difference as down this area, especially Bristol it is different.
fear mongering about an independent Scotland being kicked out of the EU…
See it's stupid and misleading statements like that which highlight the desperation of the leave campaign. An independent Scotland wouldn't have been kicked out of the EU, it would never have been a member, regardless of whether the UK was or not. It would have to apply to join and even a quick joining would probably take a decade, it was claims like these from the leave campaign that were wildly optimistic at best, bit like leave in the Brexit debate. All sunlit uplands and jam tomorrow based on little more than jingoistic fervour and misinformation.
I just have never seen much of a difference between the countries, i was brought up around Perth, back in the 80s they were a tory area, you’d see Nicholas Fairbairn on his horse driven coach out seeing the public, then moved down to Glasgow for a while, never enjoyed living there, would definitely say it was not a socialist paradise there!
Funnily enough, I hated Perth. Glasgow is where I'd really like to be again. For me, Glasgow is where I've always felt the strongest sense of community.
Perth reminded me more of being in England in terms of attitudes. For reference, when I was in England I was living in Surrey.
On a Scottish Labour renaissance, remember when Theresa May scraped a GE win by the skin of her teeth, helped by the sudden uptick of Scottish Tory candidates being elected, then recall how Scottish Labour encouraged it’s supporters to “vote Tory to keep the SNP out” - their visceral, irrational hatred of the SNP essentially blew up the change for success in the General Election. Imagine how different the UK might have been, if the Tories hadn’t been in power, beholden to the DUP and the ERG headbangers.
Speaking as someone who voted Labour in Scotland for a big chunk of my adult life, I can’t see anything about them that would draw me back.
Prior to the 2014 referendum, my preferred option would have been to expand devolution; very much a gradualist approach to self-determination for Scotland. The decision to take a confrontational, all or nothing approach by David Cameron, and the Better Together campaign, hardened my attitude, and the ensuing descent of UK politics into a hard-right clown show has only hardened that resolve. With the prevailing attitudes in England, I can’t see Keir Starmer being anything other than a one term government, before we’re back to The Brexit Tories, and a devolved Scottish parliament, of any flavour, is only ever going to be able to mitigate the social and economic impacts in a very limited way. Brexit has rendered the breakup of the UK inevitable.
Anyway, of the potential replacements, I can't recall any of them being particularly vociferous about progressing independence these past few years. That will mostly be down to the tight control exerted by the party leader and its CEO. With an accelerated leadership election process having been conjured up I doubt we'll have much of an opportunity to hear what the candidates have to say either. I expect we'll not have much change from the current work with the UK Govt/present them with an undeniable mandate line so there will be little to differentiate them.
I think I'd rather be based in or near Perth any day rather than Glasgow but then I don't really know the place, too much bigotry for me and it rains a lot. I like the architecture but quite a bit looking like it needs tlc
My daughter thought the place was great when at uni with her friends many from the same school but Edinburgh and the East for me
Fairbairn was a dodgy solicitor and there seem to have been many in that "trusted" profession over the years and probably currently, live in Fordell castle a few miles up from the Forth bridge in Fife
For reference, when I was in England I was living in Surrey.
If that's what you think all of England is like then that does explain a lot of your posts. I believe another poster referenced living in the home counties too.
I'm still a member of the SNP more of the same cold porridge isn't an attractive option for me
See it’s stupid and misleading statements like that which highlight the desperation of the leave campaign. An independent Scotland wouldn’t have been kicked out of the EU, it would never have been a member, regardless of whether the UK was or not. It would have to apply to join and even a quick joining would probably take a decade, it was claims like these from the leave campaign that were wildly optimistic at best, bit like leave in the Brexit debate. All sunlit uplands and jam tomorrow based on little more than jingoistic fervour and misinformation.
So a country proven to have followed the 'rules' for decades wouldn't have been fast-tracked in - sure mate, sure.
If that’s what you think all of England is like then that does explain a lot of your posts. I believe another poster referenced living in the home counties too.
I'm very much aware that attitudes and culture vary massively in England (as you'd expect in a country of 55 million). A country of 5 million has far less variation although some pretty big differences.
I've had conversations with people from the North of England who are very much against Scotland going independent. When I ask, 'What if we took the North of England with us?' they normally have to have a long think before they answer.
I've said several times I'm not independence at all costs. If the UK met some conditions (which they are showing zero sign of even moving towards) then I'd definitely reconsider. They are, in order:
1. Get rid of FPTP
2. Rejoin the EU
3. Written constitution
4. Become more like Germany with a strong federal element of government
If there was any sign of any of those things happening I'd reconsider. However, even option 4 is just having lip service paid to it. There is no reasonable route to any of those things so independence is the only option for now.
A federal UK, in the EU, is the “answer”… but that is never happening. There are some baby steps towards devolving more power in Labour’s proposed “take back control” bill, but the truth is that moving towards anything like a federal system in steps that’ll take 40+ years is just a fantasy proposition, because those steps will be undone by future UK governments. This reality has become clear to most people since 2014, and moved many people to be more favourable towards the independence idea, even if they’re not there yet. People who were once incremental devolutionists can now see how temporary and limited devolved powers are when they are handed down from above with unilateral power, rather than truly built in at the lower level and lent upwards when mutually agreed and beneficial.
A federal UK, in the EU, is the “answer”… but that is never happening.
It's an accusation that is often leveled at indy supporters that we would support independence no matter what.
To that I tell them, 'That's not true' and list what it would take for me to support the Union. To which they normally reply, 'But that will never happen!'
To which I say, 'Exactly, hence independence. Now, what would it take for you to vote Yes?'
Normally I don't get an answer to that question, which makes me wonder how many Unionists has actually thought through their position and aren't just defaulting to the status quo.
I’m afraid you are right. Nothing has happened since 2014 to reassure people (however they voted) that there is any progression towards deeper or less precarious devolution. I don’t want Scotland to separate from the UK… but any talk about how the union can be made to work looks more and more like hot air in the face of the reality of UK wide politics. It feels like the referendum was a “you’ve made your choice, now shut up and live with the union exactly how a UK government wants it, no compromise” moment, when so much more was offered to win that vote. And then Brexit…
That was always the fear of what would happen if the vote was lost in 2014 and, I suspect, one of the reasons that Nicola Sturgeon has never pressed for a rerun.
wouldn’t have been fast-tracked in – sure mate, sure.
10 years would be the fast track. The process won't start until the uncoupling from rUK is complete and based on how well Brexit is going that won't be a quick or easy process either (Scotland will have to deal with rUK government for a start). The EU can't bring Scotland in until things like borders are sorted, is it going to be a hard border (with Scotland's biggest trading partner) or a soft border so that goods and people can move relatively freely. If the latter (former would be suicide for Scotland) then the EU will want all sorts of things in place, look how difficult it's proving in Northern Ireland.
I don't know whether the ridiculous levels of optimism shown by leavers is wild naivety or wanton misdirection.
Bit of both
See it’s stupid and misleading statements like that which highlight the desperation of the leave campaign. An independent Scotland wouldn’t have been kicked out of the EU, it would never have been a member, regardless of whether the UK was or not. It would have to apply to join and even a quick joining would probably take a decade, it was claims like these from the leave campaign that were wildly optimistic at best, bit like leave in the Brexit debate. All sunlit uplands and jam tomorrow based on little more than jingoistic fervour and misinformation.
Meanwhile, voting to stay got us where exactly?
@stumpyjon just out of interest, what would have to happen in the UK to make you switch from No to Yes?
Meanwhile, voting to stay got us where exactly?
In a less worse position than if you had voted to leave.
@BruceWee I live south of the border so my opinion doesn't count, even though it has huge significance for the country I live in. I don't think there is anything that would change my mind. As I grew up the world seemed to be slowly coming together, in the West at any rate. All I've seen over the last decade or so is fragmentation into smaller and smaller groups, more and more small minded nationalism and it's toxic and counter productive. If Scotland was independent I don't think the additional freedom from Westminster would really be used to make the lives of people in Scotland better, even if there was a significant loss in income for the country which I believe will happen.
Yes Westminster politicians are a disgrace but many in Engalnd and Wales think the same thing and also feel powerless. It's not just here either, many Europeans aren't happy with the current state of things either.
I think Scottish independance is a quirk of geography used by career hungry politicians to make themselves important whilst avoiding the real issues facing most of us. We need to grow up and work together, not just get huffy when we don't get our own way and pretend we're special when we're not.
I don't get that many Scottish nationalists can't see the similarities between their behaviiur and messages and the Brexiteers across the UK. It's all some blind belief that if 'we' could somehow regain our sovereignty we could do so much better. I don't believe the politicians would be any better on a more local level and the concept of sovereignty for all but maybe China and the USA is a myth, the world is global, national politicians don't have the freedom to do what they want, Liz Truss tried, look where that led.
There will be no revolution that suddenly makes things better, theynusualky make things a lot worse, society will continue to evolve and improve but it happens organically and can't be forced.
I don’t get that many Scottish nationalists can’t see the similarities between their behaviiur and messages and the Brexiteers across the UK.
Yeah, we don't get how, despite having explained it on this and multiple other threads many many times using smaller and smaller words until we're basically just grunting and using sign language, you still don't get that they are completely different.
English-centric world view, I guess.
I don’t think there is anything that would change my mind.
So you're a true blue British Nationalist? The British government simply could not do anything so terrible that you could be made to admit Scotland might be better off as an independent country?
Good to know.
If Scotland was independent I don’t think the additional freedom from Westminster would really be used to make the lives of people in Scotland better, even if there was a significant loss in income for the country which I believe will happen.
Living in Scotland that’s as far as I need to read.
Ah yes, the old “if you vote for independence, you’ll lose your place in the EU, the economy will tank, and you’ll be worse off financially” strategem.
That aged well…
@stumpyjon Wouldn't there be a different working relationship with the EU. One country wishing to join and willing to meet EU regulations An other country wishing to leave, sometimes refusing to negotiate at all, untrustworthy when it did negotiate etc.
That's at least two in the running then.<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> </span>
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">I see Humza Yousaf as the continuity candidate. Will questions be asked about his faith? Ash Regan would mix things up a bit and might see the end of the SNP/Green alliance </span>
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">I'm still expecting Angus Robertson to put his name forward and he would likely have the support of Nicola Sturgeon and Peter Murrell.</span>
Shame the NEC have ignored the Party Constitution with this accelerated leadership election though as I suspect we'll not have a chance to hear much from any of the candidates.
PLEASE FIX THE BLOODY EDITOR
PLEASE FIX THE BLOODY EDITOR
Just switch it off in preferences
@BruceWee of course their are scenarios where Scotland would be better off, if Westminster went full North Korea for example, but that's extremely unlikely so I didn't really count it as realistic.
So you’re a true blue British Nationalist?
You make that sound like an insult, but no I wouldn't describe myself that way, I genuinely believe rUK is better off in a union with Scotland and that Scotland would not do well as a small independent nation with it's access to Europe through another nation it has limited influence over.
Ah yes, the old “if you vote for independence, you’ll lose your place in the EU, the economy will tank, and you’ll be worse off financially” strategem.
That aged well…
Well you would need to re-join the EU which will take significant time, I absolutely agree that being in the EU is both socially and economically beneficial to its members. Your economy will tank in the meantime, you'll have a currency you have no control over (sterling or Euro), the cost of separation will be massive, it'll cause business uncertainty for years, revenue from fossil fuels is going to drop dramatically (assuming Scotland wins the battle over who gets what in the North Sea) and Scotland is currently a net recipient from rUK.
I'm not pro rUK or a little Englander, I genuinely believe Scotland would be in an awful state in the short to medium term (a generation at least) if it became independent. It would to a lesser extent also be detrimental to rUK to have to go through he costs and complexity of separation, time and resources that could actually be used to make life better both sides of the border when the Tories are gone.
Living in Scotland that’s as far as I need to read.
and that sums up much of the independence movement for me, I don't like what you're saying, I'm not engaging, exactly like the Brexiteers, no clear arguments as to why things will be better, project fear, play to emotion not reason. Scottish independence is exactly like Brexit, vague hopes it'll all be better if we can just get rid of the foreigners dragging us down. Well if you need an example of why fragmentation is bad look at Brexit, it's real now, it wasn't project fear, it was project reality.
@gordimhor of course but the EU is a large bureaucratic organisation that requires 26 countries to agree (and sometimes countries do things for completely unrelated reasons). Plus there will be negotiation, Scotland won't be happy with everything on offer. And this process can only start after the EU is clear what an independent Scotland looks like. Until borders which will be key for EU discussions are resolved the EU can't negotiate properly. Unfortunately whether you like it or not rUK will in someway be involved in the Scottish EU joining process and we've all seen how useless they've been at been at negotiating Brexit.
Anyway I know I'm not going to win any arguments with the true believers and as I'm south of the border I couldn't possibly understand how different you are north of it and anyway because I live in England I must be a Tory supporting little Englander harking back to the good old days of the empire so my views don't count. For what it's worth I'm deeply embarrassed by my nation and furious with our politicians, I just don't think throwing the baby out with the bath water is the answer. I'm off to ride my bike.
and that sums up much of the independence movement for me, I don’t like what you’re saying, I’m not engaging, exactly like the Brexiteers, no clear arguments as to why things will be better, project fear, play to emotion not reason.
Your points have all been refuted numerous times on this and many other threads over the years. Either you are new to this debate or you refuse to read the points that contradict yours.
You have your beliefs and, short of the UK becoming North Korea, you have said you are not going to change your mind.
I and others have laid out exactly what it would take for us to move from Yes to No. Not pie in the sky utopia but just the same basic democracy enjoyed in many other large European countries.
If anyone is a True Believer it's you, I'm afraid.
In a less worse position than if you had voted to leave.
Glad you think so, last I checked we're out with no prospect of getting back in. Had we left we'd still be out but already working towards getting back in.
We need to grow up and work together, not just get huffy when we don’t get our own way and pretend we’re special when we’re not.
That's the thing though, we DO want to work together with the 26 countries on our doorstep*, unfortunately that decision was taken away from us.
*obviously that includes the rUK but since "they" only want to play with countries with a cricket team I guess that's on them.
Scotland would not do well as a small independent nation with it’s access to Europe through another nation it has limited influence over.
How's the Republic of Ireland doing these days?
The ROI was formed in 1937. Anything leave has got is emotional arguments and speculation. The 'you must be new to this' or 'we've explained in small words' is nicely insulting. Way to frame an argument. You just don't know what an independent Scotland will look like, you'll be placing a hard border across which 75% of your trade must cross, and you seem positively unwilling to learn anything from brexit. Here we are 7 years later and still haven't got it sorted.
On the other hand you can see what happens with labour. Realigning with the rest of the EU will take time.
I don't want you to go for my own selfish reasons but if go you must I'll wish you luck. You'll need it because you'll be negotiating with Westminster. It's going to be extremely expensive.
See it’s stupid and misleading statements like that which highlight the desperation of the leave campaign. An independent Scotland wouldn’t have been kicked out of the EU, it would never have been a member, regardless of whether the UK was or not
What a load of deceitful crap you've posted. We're all aware of the situation, which was that Scotland was part of an EU member state, and would not have been in the event of independence. That argument was advanced repeatedly as a reason to vote for the union. Of course, Scotland is now worse off as it can't apply to join.
You just don’t know what an independent Scotland will look like, you’ll be placing a hard border across which 75% of your trade must cross, and you seem positively unwilling to learn anything from brexit. Here we are 7 years later and still haven’t got it sorted.
Yes, it's been explained many times (if it sounds insulting, sorry, but it's frustrating to make the same points over and over again, only for someone new* to come along and make the same point as if it is something no one has thought of before).
No, we can't map out what iS is going to look like. Mostly because any plan will be multi-step and step 2 is going to rely on the result of step 1. You can have general goals that you're aiming for but you're saying unless we can tell you exactly what going to happen during step 17 then independence is an invalid choice.
The fact is, you can't tell us what the UK is going to look like next year. There are no precedents for a country like the UK leaving the EU. It's a very uncertain situation that is constantly evolving and the contradicting positions are impossible to resolve.
On the other hand, we have loads of examples of small countries either in the EU or immediately adjacent to it in the EFTA. Admittedly, apart from Ireland, none of them share a border with a former Empire having a xenophobic temper tantrum so there's that, but overall it's still far less of a leap into the unknown than sticking with Brexit Britain.
*often that someone new is someone who has made the same point, had it answered, and then disappeared for a couple of weeks only to pop up and ask the same question again.
The ROI was formed in 1937.
But only recently "had" to begin transhipping goods through a non-EU state. Except they didn't because they just shipped direct to France by sea.
you’ll be placing a hard border across which 75% of your trade must cross
Again, no it doesn't. We have ports on both coasts capable of shipping to the wider EU with other possible sites if we needed them.
Yes, I get that a high proportion of trade is with the wider UK and that certain commodities would likely come from there but framing a land border as cutting us off is just daft.
You can have general goals that you’re aiming for but you’re saying unless we can tell you exactly what going to happen during step 17 then independence is an invalid choice
In no way am I saying it's an invalid choice. However it's common for the proponents to wave away the difficulties and sell certainties where none exist. It's an immensely difficult task and I can't help but reflect on the surprise a certain poster here greeted the news that it was commonly thought that sorting everything out and joining the EU might take 10-15 years.
Yes, there are several examples of small countries aligning closely with or being members of the EU but they were (forgive my slight) 'whole' countries in their own right when they signed up. By which I mean they had established customs borders, fully formed governmental departments and administrations, their own currency etc.
You're correct in asserting that no-one can say what the UK looks like to a large extent in a year's time of course but it's a relatively large economy where shall changes won't alter it's course dramatically (truss aside!). You've a comparatively small economy and small changes will be comparatively more significant. Also, we're 7 years down the line separating from our nearest large trade partners. Hopefully getting closer again after the next election. 👍
We have ports on both coasts capable of shipping to the wider EU with other possible sites if we needed them
No dispute there but 75% of Scotland's trade is with the rest of the UK. Using coastal ports won't help mitigate the issues.
You said this,
However it’s common for the proponents to wave away the difficulties and sell certainties where none exist.
and this,
Hopefully getting closer again after the next election. 👍
To me, this is a clear example of waving away difficulties. SKS has come out and ruled out the Simgle Market, the Customs Union, and any return to freedom of movement which rules out any kind of Swiss type arrangement.
There really isn't much left he can actually do once he's ruled all this out.
When it comes down to it, Labour's position on Europe is the same as the Tories. Possibly just a bit more competent and a bit less evil, but fundamentally the same.
He's left himself no avenue to move closer to Europe in any meaningful way, which is what Scotland and to a slightly lesser extent rUK need. I understand why he's saying it, but it does us absolutely no good.
Labour's policy of 'Make Brexit Work' is the definition of waving a major difficulty away and selling certainties where none exist.
Given the choice, I think Scotland should choose the option that is actually realistic rather than Labour's vague have cake and eat it nonsense or whatever insanity the Tories are selling this week.
The independence argument is still to be done, everything that is discussed these days are all hypothetical, and can be argued by either side, EU membership will bring Scotland wealth, or it'll increase costs with rUK, etc, etc, etc. Reality is, if IndyRef2 happens, then that's the time where facts, figures or estimates will come into play to sell either sides arguments.
As for Labours position just now, i doubt they're arguing against reducing the impact of Brexit, but personally i feel that the UK has no chance of getting back in the EU any time soon, the Brexiteers made sure it was as painful as possible to leave, and even more painful to try and rejoin, then you add the likes of France and their opinion of having the UK in the EU, and it gets harder, hypothetically the likes of Spain, Italy, Ireland, Greece, etc to have a reduced benefit if the UK came back in, as they benefited with our exit.
Anyway, back to the leadership battle, looks pretty depressing so far, lots of whispers that Kate Forbes is the favourite and will be well backed to throw her hat in the ring, even worse, Alex Salmond is starting to get back on the airwaves and TV!
looks pretty depressing so far,
I agree.
Labour’s policy of ‘Make Brexit Work’
It's not a policy, it's a slogan. Significant difference.