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To me, it’s also kind of interesting that last week media, MPs and MSPs were talking about how significant it was that the auditors had apparently resigned amidst the police investigation, and now we’re hearing about how significant it is that they didn’t
The police investigation started in 2021, so the former is correct. I'm neither an auditor nor a policeman but I assume that the auditors would have been part of the very first line of enquiry in a fraud investigation?
I am sorry you do not understand the nature of anti scots racism
If it involves telling jokes based on traditional Scottish stereotypes then I have to admit I'm as anti-Scots racist as they come. And I was born, and live, here.
Its the negative sterotyping not the joke - as I am sure you know
Dressing the ex leader up in a victorian imaginary idea of a clan chieftain outfit to mock her is different as I am sure you realise to a self deprecating joke
The police investigation started in 2021, so the former is correct. I’m neither an auditor nor a policeman but I assume that the auditors would have been part of the very first line of enquiry in a fraud investigation?
All depends on the nature of the enquiry and I've worked for organisations that have suffered from financial frauds (including leading the internal investigation), often the only work that the external auditors will do is 'report' it in the annual report, and only then if it is 'significant' to the organisation (as a whole).
Dressing the ex leader up in a victorian imaginary idea of a clan chieftain outfit to mock her
Point of order, it wasn't "victorian imaginary idea of a clan chieftain", it was Mel Gibson's.
Which comes from the victorian imaginary idea of a clan chieftain
The cartoon showed Sturgeon with a blue painted face, that has nothing to do with Victorian imaginary.
or no auditor will touch them (which is worrying).
There has been occasional mentions in Private Eye and a few other places about financial issues for quite a while.
So I would guess most auditors would have decided to err on the side of caution and decline to bid.
Doesnt mean there is something wrong just that unless you are absolutely certain there wasnt anything wrong or the bill was really really large its unlikely to be worth the possible negative press.
Dressing the ex leader up in a victorian imaginary idea
Is this just when its used in a negative light or do you want it removed in all cases?
Point of order, it wasn’t “victorian imaginary idea of a clan chieftain”, it was Mel Gibson’s.
I lived a few doors down from the SNP's HQ in the late 90s and they were more than happy to put pictures of Mel Gibson in their window back then 🙂
I assume that the auditors would have been part of the very first line of enquiry in a fraud investigation?
Not necessarily, imnshe. The work that auditors do is very limited in scope and they rely heavily on representations by the subject of the audit. People (including clients that don't read the engagement letters...) think that because an auditor has signed off on the accounts, it means every transaction is legit. But at best it means that the accounts are materially correct at a high level, if everything the company/entity has told the auditors is true. To be fair to the auditors, it would be a massive undertaking to verify even a tenth of all transactions.
You do realise,TJ, that Sturgeon isn’t being parodied as a generic Scot? She is being lampooned as Mel Gibson/William Wallace. Hence the outfit
That’s how I seen it. Where as a wearing a tartan hat and ginger wig does fit in with the old trope.
@intheborders and @politecameraaction - thanks for the response/insight.
I see claims that the motorhome was bought as a "battle bus" for campaigning during Covid. One does wonder why the SNP would need this given that they already have a gravy train...
As for not being replaced… My understanding is their accounts need to be audited annually, but that there’s no requirement to have auditors other than that- they don’t do the accounts or oversee the accounting process, spending etc, that’s the National Treasurer’s job. They oversee the financial statements that the National Treasurer produces once a year. It’s presumably sensible to have business continuity and to have the contracts in place, and a six month gap with a new report due in 3 months or so seems amateurish maybe, but again it just seems to be allusions and implications rather than actually being wrong. They have to submit their accounts by July, still 3 months away, I think they’re basically 4 months into a 7 month window from end of accounting year to submission of accounts.
The BBC says : 'New leader Humza Yousaf confirmed on Tuesday that long-time accountants Johnston Carmichael had quit last year.
The SNP has told the Electoral Commission it is having difficulty identifying a replacement ahead of its accounts deadline'
Yeah, well, that's just the unionist media, or something...
The SNP has told the Electoral Commission it is having difficulty identifying a replacement ahead of its accounts deadline’
AKA still in procurement
Are the accountants coming on the ferry?
thisisnotaspoon
Full Member
Are the accountants coming on the ferry?
They'll probably get to the ferry before the mechanics do
There may be nothing in the resignation of the auditors for the SNP; there may be nothing in finding a replacement, it is just taking time. The problem is that when this is added onto a long list of finance issues affecting the SNP then it gives an impression of something going on.
- Where is the "missing" £667k?
- Why was the SNP treasurer not given the information necessary for him to do his job, so he resigned?
- Why has the SNP SEC not been presented with detailed financial information for them to do their job?
- Why did the then leader of the SNP (NS) tell the SNP NEC not to worry about the finances?
All of this may be perfectly normal, but..
Political parties have always been terrible at finances, Labour were always teetering on bankruptcy from a party accounts perspective, the Tories were always employing clever accountancy to try and hide where funds came from and there's always some nightmare happening.
They're only slightly better than football clubs, who also appear to struggle to get anyone to sign off their accounts most of the time with all the fudgery going on.
Labour were always teetering on bankruptcy from a party accounts perspective
How is that relevant to what the police are currently investigating the SNP for?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Branchform
The investigation is over whether £666,953 raised since 2017 specifically to campaign for independence in a proposed second Scottish independence referendum was in part improperly spent by the SNP on other activities
As someone who donated (via their membership) I've no issue with how they spent the money, as long as it was spent on activities deemed necessary/useful for the strategic objective of independence.
Therefore this currently feels like 'politics' by those wanting to maintain the Union.
Therefore this currently feels like ‘politics’ by those wanting to maintain the Union.
Wasn’t the police investigation started following a complaint by someone who had donated & was rather objected to where the money might have gone?
Yeah I'm fairly sure that Sean Clerkin doesn't want to maintain the Union.
As someone who doesn't follow Scottish politics closely even I know what Sean Clerkin's position is thanks to his widely reported nose-to-nose confrontation with Jim Murphy in 2015.
Trouble is that this is being used both by Unionists and those who would rather the SNP was brought into line with Alba. Or simply became Alba.
SNP is having to fight in every direction at the moment.
Agreed Bruce lots of bad faith actors in this.
However the SNP has many serious issues to face up to.
Let's see what Police Scotland come up with regarding the money.
Meantime the SNP has to rebuild it's internal democracy from the ground up.
Definitely.
What worries me is that Humza Yousaf doesn't seem to even be given a chance. He's been in the job for two weeks and he's already been written off. In fact, he was written off as soon as he entered the contest.
It just feels like self fulfilling prophecy.
Trouble is that this is being used both by Unionists and those who would rather the SNP was brought into line with Alba. Or simply became Alba.
SNP is having to fight in every direction at the moment.
Of course it is being used as a weapon against the SNP by its political opponents. But they didn’t create the problem. The actions of the SNP are what is providing the ammunition.
Yes but the triangulation ie attacks from all sides is pretty nasty but its what happens to the SNP. the tories were fined twice for similar offenses but much less fuss made
Edit - the SNP has to deal with a almost universally hostile press whereas the Tories do not
The actions of the SNP are what is providing the ammunition.
The actions of the SNP or the actions of Peter Murrell?
Or do you not know yet (like the rest of us) so you're saying the actions of the SNP because you want to use this issue as a weapon against them?
the tories were fined twice for similar offenses but much less fuss made
How do you know what offenses have been committed?
Did the Tory leader have an evidence tent in their garden?
Any assets seized?
I reckon this is just par for the course with politics - everyone will wade in when a political opponent is under pressure. From my uneducated point of view, the Tories seem to be unbothered when it pointed at them as they have become completely blind to what anyone is saying - far too long in power and it has bred contempt - SNP have the same issue.
Let the bun fight get going and get it over with, then hopefully the adults will get back to the tables and get a whole load of this nonsense sorted.
How do you know what offenses have been committed?
Ok - what appears to be similar offenses ie breaches of electoral law and misacounting.
I bet thats all this comes out to be.
I bet thats all this comes out to be.
What's your opinion on the evidence tent? Seems pretty strange for "run of the mill" accountancy investigations!
So that the press could not see what was being loaded into the van! That was its purpose!
Maybe I'm right. maybe I am wrong but thats my opinion.
There has been no suggestion of personal enrichment here at all. Unlike the tories.
What’s your opinion on the evidence tent? Seems pretty strange for “run of the mill” accountancy investigations!
Your evidence is the fact there was an evidence tent?
Maybe someone wanted people to start saying things like, 'No smoke without fire!' A lot of people don't like the SNP and it wouldn't surprise me if one of them had the authority to tell their underlings to put up a very suspicious looking evidence tent.
And it seems to have worked if that was the intention.
Maybe we could try waiting until the actual evidence is available instead of using the presence evidence tents as evidence?
There has been no suggestion of personal enrichment here at all.
That's not quite true. You can draw your own inference from the towing of the £100,000 RV. Also, if referendum money was used to prop up the party financially at a time when Sturgeon's husband* was taking a salary and had an unsecured £100,000 loan to the party, then were was a personal benefit - he'd have lost his job and the hundred grand if the party collapsed.
As someone who donated (via their membership) I’ve no issue with how they spent the money, as long as it was spent on activities deemed necessary/useful for the strategic objective of independence
That's great for you - but if the SNP wanted the flexibility to spend the money on anything it wanted (salaries, paying off loans, or whatever else), it shouldn't have promised to only use the money for a specific task! This is absolutely basic stuff.
I'm not as tin foil hat as that Bruce 🙂
I think that the police have attempted to do two things. Be 100% thorough if not more so so that they can not be accused of being soft on the SNP ( Unlike the met and the Tories) and also to attempt to be fair to the SNP by trying to keep as much as possible private hence the tent.
but if the SNP wanted the flexibility to spend the money on anything it wanted (salaries, paying off loans, or whatever else), it shouldn’t have promised to only use the money for a specific task! This is absolutely basic stuff.
Indeed - that appears to be the main issue and its a breach of electoral law leading to a fine for the party - similar to the two times the tories got fined for something similar
Yeah, my theory was almost as ridiculous as suggesting the presence of the evidence tent showed this was more than just an fraud investigation.
Maybe it's just standard procedure if the police reckon there are going to be a lot of people taking photos during a search.
Does anyone know if, perhaps, there were a lot of people taking photos for some unknowable reason?
Yeah, my theory was almost as ridiculous as suggesting the presence of the evidence tent showed this was more than just an fraud investigation.
I don't think it's "anything more" than just a fraud investigation. I was asking a question to why this fraud investigation needed an evidence tent. It just looks very unusual. It could be argued that the police did it to make the whole thing look even worse, not too protect them from the press!
Surely if you are seizing documents, they are already in a box or you put them in a box before you carry them out?
I really don't think that they have buried anyone under the patio.
I was asking a question to why this fraud investigation needed an evidence tent. It just looks very unusual.
I gave my best guess as an answer - so the press could not see what was being removed as the police try to be as fair as they can whilst also be zealously thorough to prevent accusations of being soft on them
Maybe it rains a bit in Scotland & the police thought it a good idea to have a tent to stop paperwork getting wet, either that or they might be digging up body parts or dinosaur bones.
I really don’t think that they have buried anyone under the patio.
I do, but then maybe that's just me imagining what I would do if I was FM.
BruceWee
Full Member
Definitely.What worries me is that Humza Yousaf doesn’t seem to even be given a chance. He’s been in the job for two weeks and he’s already been written off.
I expected there was
(A) such a big job of internal reform required and
(B) such a hostile environment in the press and in factions within the SNP and outside the SNP.
That the task is too much to be accomplished by one new party leader who ever that may be.
If the SNP is to revive it will probably be with the next leader.
So far Humza has made a mistake by not extending the olive branch to supporters Kate Forbes or Ash Regan. Let's see how he does at rebuilding party democracy.
However he will have to be excellent as FM and party leader otherwise I think continuous media assault and any sense that it is the same old faces trotting out the same old line from the SNP will lead him out of office
that appears to be the main issue and its a breach of electoral law leading to a fine for the part
As a single-issue fund raising campaign - raising funds to deliver a particular activity, rather than party funding more broadly - there might be a bit more to it than electoral law. Steve Bannon's 'build the wall' fundraising, and the resulting charges that could see up to 15 years in prison for instance. It's not necessarily the case that any individual is trousering the money for themselves (although he was in that instance) . But a little bit of well-meaning robbing Peter to pay Paul - taking funds raised for one purpose (Indi-2) and using it for another (patching shortfalls in membership income) because in your mind it'll its all really for one cause really - could mean some lines have been crossed that are about more than electoral rules.
A bit like Trump's current troubles sometimes its not what you do thats the crime, its lying about, hiding, obscuring what you've done that crosses the line.
True Maccruiskeen. Hubris. Its gets a lot of politicians in the end.
We will see when it all comes out.
We will see
whenif it all comes out
FTFY
Guardian reporting that auditors resigned 6 months ago
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/12/humza-yousaf-kate-forbes-scotland-snp-party-auditors
Guardian reporting that auditors resigned 6 months ago
that's been knowledge for the past few days
Did someone say not having auditors isn't a big deal. Seems the SNP Westminster group don't have auditors either and could lose £1M party funding if it isn't sorted by May 31st.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23453226.snp-faces-loss-1million-public-funds-auditor-chaos/
https://order-order.com/2023/04/13/snp-westminster-group-face-losing-1-million-after-auditors-quit/
that appears to be the main issue and its a breach of electoral law leading to a fine for the party – similar to the two times the tories got fined for something similar
You know, of course, that it is the Electoral Commission that investigates run-of-the-mill breaches of electoral funding law. Issues are only passed to police if "a breach involves a criminal offence, but we can’t sanction or it’s so serious that our sanctions wouldn’t be strong enough". Regulators and police are often wrong, of course, but evidently their belief at the moment is that this is not some mere bookkeeping slip-up.
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/our-enforcement-work
Ok - I still think its much less serious than many would like but we will see in time.
Ta for that
Re the Auditors quitting, as there's no muttering about breach of contract, is it that they were in fact donating their time and are no longer prepared to do it FOC, so the SNP are in fact struggling to find anyone willing to do it on the cheap, when things are a bit tight.
I think I can understand why some donators asked questions.
How exactly does a motorhome further the independence campaign?
According to the SNPs accounts, the Audit Fee for the last occurrence in 2021 (but published in August 2022) was £57,000. Is that cheap given that the previous year it was only £26,000?
How exactly does a motorhome further the independence campaign?
The claim is it was to be used as a "battle bus" for campaigning during covid or something. Its hardly been hidden has it. Still a bit weird as apparently its never been moved
Auditors quitting, as there’s no muttering about breach of contract
Why would it be a breach? Auditors get appointed for a set number of years and have to be reappointed. Contracts will allow for either party to rescind the contract with appropriate notice.
The claim is it was to be used as a “battle bus” for campaigning during covid or something. Its hardly been hidden has it. Still a bit weird as apparently its never been moved
Well it's obviously been hidden given very few people seemed to know about it until recently.
But it does beg the question, if they spent £110'000 on that, what have they spent the other money on?
The big thing for me, is any of these things on their own could possibly be explained, but everything together paints a picture of either gross incompetence/poor management, or underhand dealings.
Regardless, at the moment it appears nobody within the SNP seems to know what has gone on, what is happening, or seem to be making any moves to actively address things. They just appear to be waiting to see what is going to happen next.
"That bus was just resting on my driveway". 🤣
The way I see it SNP finances were a mess and Murrell ( and presumably Sturgeon) did not want to make it public the big loss of members / income so pushed money around from one place to another to hide this. This then becomes a spiral like a gambling addiction and there was no one to say " OI WTF are you doing"until it reached a point where it was impossible to hide anymore
someone must have signed off on the purchase of the camper van. Its a very poor way to hide money / cream it off
If you're gonna waste other people's money on dodgy vehicles, you've got a way to go until you catch up with Boris Johnson: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/19/boris-johnson-unused-water-cannon-sold-for-scrap-at-300000-loss
The claim is it was to be used as a “battle bus” for campaigning during covid or something.
Do any SNP supporters believe that?
Surely someone, somewhere, has photoshoped
"£110k for this campervan, Shouldn't we spend that on independence instead?"
onto the side of it?
Where's @Jamie when you need him?
Yeah, the camper van is a real head scratcher, it's not exactly the brexit bus, which in itself was hired for a short period at preferential rates, you'd think the SNP would go to Stagecoach for similar rather than outlay for a brand new camper. You'd also think they'd park it up at SNP offices or even parliament, it's just another case where the SNP look very incompetent.
Still think Nicola and her husband aren't guilty of anything fraudulent, just politicians now looking daft after a bright idea isn't so bright after all.
Still think Nicola and her husband aren’t guilty of anything fraudulent, just politicians now looking daft after a bright idea isn’t so bright after all.
Needs a "deliberatly" in there and I also think they maybe did the gamblers thing of chasing losses. IE make a small cock up and then try to hide it creating a larger one and with them controlling the party so tightly no one said to the "WTF are you up to?"
It's not like there was no attempt made to check on the finances..
Yeah, the camper van is a real head scratcher, it’s not exactly the brexit bus, which in itself was hired for a short period at preferential rates, you’d think the SNP would go to Stagecoach for similar rather than outlay for a brand new camper.
Especially if the justification is "COVID".
1) There was a whole touring industry on hiatus they could have hired a whole tour bus
2) Lockdown didn't stop anyone staying in a hotel
3) Lockdown did prevent public gatherings, you don't need a battle buss to host Zoom Q&A's.
1) There was a whole touring industry on hiatus they could have hired a whole tour bus
You mean like these two hired buses Nicola is promoting just after the campervan was bought?
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/7049661/nicola-sturgeon-election-battle-bus-indyref2/
The thing that gets me with the camper is is that if you wanted to hide / launder money / take money out for personal reasons there are a lot better ways of doing it that are tried and tested. Like Jackson Carlaw the tory MSP and the paintings from his bust business
We'll find out the answer in the near future, i just find it completely mental, which is why i think it's just a hugely embarrassing fiasco rather than some fraudulent activity, i'm no fan of the SNP, i have voted for them when in Scotland, but i just see them as no better than any other party, full of chancers and idiots, but i do think Sturgeon is someone who was all about the image and the message, i can't see how she'd willingly, or knowingly do anything fraudulent.
Police Scotland has confirmed officers are still investigating fraud allegations over £295,000 of taxpayers' money which was handed to the publisher of a book of Nicola Sturgeon's speeches.
https://www.insider.co.uk/news/sturgeons-book-publisher-still-being-26667659
The purchase of a campervan for campaigning is just about plausible given the vast area of some highland constituencies, I could believe that some MSPs/MPs might have wanted to use it even outwith covid times. If that was the case you would think the purchaser, might have told someone there was a very posh campervan available!
A Police Scotland spokeswoman told the Scottish Daily Express: "Information has been passed to police which is currently being assessed."
Not the same as the headline at all
That looks to me just like sour grapes
Ah yes. Nothing to see here. Incidentally does anyone defend the fact that for the last 8 years the elected leader and the chief executive of the SNP was a married couple?
The purchase of a campervan for campaigning is just about plausible given the vast area of some highland constituencies
Are you suggesting that to protect against COVID, an MSP, their researchers and press agents might want to all sleep in the same confined space while campaigning? 🤔 Exactly what problem would buying a campervan out of party funds (when they were skint) fix?
I get that to be a Scottish Nationalist after Brexit you need to have a bit of magical thinking, but this reality distortion field is just nuts.
The thing that gets me with the camper is is that if you wanted to hide / launder money / take money out for personal reasons there are a lot better ways of doing it that are tried and tested.
Evidently we are not dealing with rocket scientists.
It is not against party rules and doesn't break any electoral laws. However, I can think of many employers who have rules on such things as it could be (a} inappropriate, or (b) lead to questionable decisions. The motorhome could be a symptom of this. We know that Murrell loaned the party about £108,000 - about the cost of the motorhome. It's possible the lines between personal possessions and party possessions was getting a bit blurred. Or maybe there was some tax advantage/deal available to the party but not him?
Oh - and it's definitely not a campervan.
Maybe they were in a panic trying to chase losses, or maybe they were just felt enabled to spend party funds as they saw fit?
I don't really have an axe to grind either way, but I think this is really damaging for the SNP at a critical time.
Do you Scots feel it's bollocksed up the receding chance of independence in the foreseeable future?
I think that when the truth is finally in the public domain, that it'll prove to be at worst, a relatively minor mistake/mishap/misplacement and so will have relatively little impact.
I think for most Scots, the overall issues with the abusive, controlling relationship where Westminster treats us a colony to be sucked dry is much more important than one person's problems or mistake. There's still a very strong case to be made in support of independence.