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Like many of you I got an email from Strava the other day. Something about my data and what could be done with it. I didn't pay much attention. But it appears that
a) it's probably quite a big deal, and
b) it's probably a bit of a dick move from Strava
DC Rainmaker explains: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2024/11/stravas-changes-to-kill-off-apps.html
the enshittification will continue until profits improve
Hmmm. I think I can see why that would bother some people, but I only view my Strava data on Strava, so I don't think it affects me at all.
Strava data? Mine is nearly all Garmin data, and if Strava’s claim holds then it’s Garmin’s Ts & Cs that need to be honoured since that’s the API it was pulled from by Strava. Clowns.
Good point. It would be interesting if all the app's that feed into Strava removed that function.
Strava data? Mine is nearly all Garmin data, and if Strava’s claim holds then it’s Garmin’s Ts & Cs that need to be honoured since that’s the API it was pulled from by Strava. Clowns.
Would you not be agreeing to the data shared to Strava, then becoming Strava data at that point. And the original data still in Garmin then being a separate copy? So you have Garmin T&Cs for one copy, and Strava T&Cs for the second copy?
*I dont actually know, I've just assumed we agree to that when sharing.
Just read the DC rainmaker article, this is going to wreck Veloviewer unless they can reconfigure the app to pull data straight from Garmin/wahoo/whoever definitely not an achievable ask.
To be clear, before people start bleating about 'supporting' Strava, this is an anticompetitive move, they're trying to kill all the "little guys" in order to prop up their own subscription offerings...
Assuming this will make life difficult for Ian at crickles which would be a real shame.
There's a long thread on TrainerRoad too, fine if you use their app to run your indoor sessions, but it relies on strava to upload any outdoor sessions.
Feels like there needs to be a universal file format (is that .fit or .tcx) that allows you to download from garmin, polar, whoever, and share with the app of your choice. Strava are just the interlocutor of that data sharing at the moment, and don't actually generate anything useful other than the socials. Any detailed fitness analytics get done by other apps.
And those app developers seem to have been part of a strava family in as much as veloviewer guy used to go to strava development days etc. So strava really messing with the community goodwill they had
Suspect that in the same way there are suddenly lots of competitors to Zwift, there will be some data aggregator competitors to strava springing up to fill this gap
I suspect that Strava didn't really think through the outcomes of these changes very well, they clearly haven't been communicating with developers or 3rd parties as this has come as a surprise for everyone. I wonder if the management even read what the lawyers were writing? No one reads user-agreement updates after all!
Hmmm. I think I can see why that would bother some people, but I only view my Strava data on Strava, so I don’t think it affects me at all.
Doesn't affect me either, but it does smack of bullying the smaller apps. Maybe Garmin and Wahoo could step up their offerings to compete with Strava?
Ugh. What a stupid decision. I can't even see how it strengthens stravas position in the market. Just means my experience with trainer road will be that much shitter since won't be able to take my runs into account (presumably they'll pivot to Garmin). ****s (and I say that as a paid subscriber to Strava for 10+ years).
This and the dismal FatMap buyout has mostly removed any "want" I had for a subscription. Its basically just a Heat Map now as Polar Flow offers everything else and I dont use Strava socially.
Edit, Zwift, which I'm not currently using. And heatmap are the only things I use and I'm not sure if either of those need a sub.
Am I missing something, but isn't is as simple as if a User wants their data to go to a 3rd Party then record the data using a different solution to 'Strava' and the 3rd Party can then use the original feed for the data?
Personally I use Garmin to record and then upload to Strava.
Commercially it's Strava's choice, so if unhappy move elsewhere - out of interest, how many folk who are unhappy actually subscribe?
Also, do Strava Users know that they can download all their data? I do it at the end of every year and drop it into Excel.
I subscribe but if they persist with this idea I'll be cancelling on the day they enforce it. I'm happy to pay for stuff I use but I'm not going to pay if I can't then use it how I want/have been using. As above all my data comes from elsewhere.
I actually use intervals.icu for looking at the data so I've started looking for alternative ways to get my data from the various sources to intervals.
Suunto->intervals is supported directly.
Zwift will need to via one of the other services, wahoo probably as already have an account there.
Lezyne is the difficult one as they do not have many integrations. I could record these via suunto watch as well.
I'm not surprised by this decision from Strava.
They have developed a system whereby all fitness data is in one place (regardless of the deice used to collect it initially) and yet thousands of other companies are making a living off the back of it.
Personally I've just gone back to using free Strava because I can use intervals.icu to do the fitness analysis on my cycling data for a donation of £3 a month and while I miss the Strava leaderboards a little it isn't enough to make me pay the much higher monthly Strava fee (and the intervals.icu analysis is better IMO)
From Strava's point of view, why should they spend all their effort gathering together the data only to allow users (including me) to pay a 3rd-party instead of paying Strava? That's not a profitable business model and they needed to do something to try to retain more of the revenue within their own product.
Maybe there's another step where they charge 3rd parties for access to their API though I imagine they would want to continue with their direct consumer relationship also.
I don't think it's an easy job for any other company to quickly replicate what Strava does and replace them. The bigger players like Garmin would somehow have to allow access to their data by their direct device competitors which would be a stumbling block I imagine.
Your point won't make sense if it was free users being cut off but it appears to be a blanket cut off. As a subscriber I expect to be able to access my data via the API as I wish.
I think you are missing the point though @nixie - you are just part of the data feed that Strava then collects and 'owns'...they have very little interest in what you want to do or get out of that data from a 3rd party solution. Once your data has been uploaded to Strava it is fed into their data machine and becomes part of it all. You agreed to the Strava T&Cs an again, they are changing again...(I'm not in support of this, but it is their ball, so their rules).
If you want your data in other apps, you need to find a way to get that data into those apps. If you use a Garmin, Suunto, Wahoo or Polar device, their app should have an integration to other 3rd party sites (maybe not all of them, but there may be a way to get the 3rd party apps to sync between themselves).
I use Trailforks, Strava and Intervals.icu and they all get an upload from Garmin. When I kill my Strava account, the otehr 2 will keep working as my data connection gets done from Garmin.
This Strava change isn't going to impact me directly as I've nothing getting the Strava feed other than Strava.
True @nixie. I wonder if they are seeing an exodus of paid users downgrading to free and just want to stop the paid users discovering other platforms.
Personally I’ve just gone back to using free Strava because I can use intervals.icu to do the fitness analysis on my cycling data for a donation of £3 a month and while I miss the Strava leaderboards a little it isn’t enough to make me pay the much higher monthly Strava fee (and the intervals.icu analysis is better IMO)
Exactly the same here. I don't see any benefit to the leaderboards any more either; bike ones are all contaminated by e-bikes, and the running ones are screwed by people who used bikes and the wrong activity profile.
It's like they're trying to out-evil Zwift.
Edit: and as an aside, it's not Strava's data to do as they please with, under GDPR it's *your* data.
I get they own it once it's in Strava but my point was they also want you to subscribe. If I can't use the data one I've paid them then why would pay them. This change will mean they lose the subscription income and the data. I get one use is irrelevant in the grand scheme but I'll not be the only one making that change.
Sadly makes my lezyne gps less useful.
From Strava’s point of view, why should they spend all their effort gathering together the data only to allow users (including me) to pay a 3rd-party instead of paying Strava? That’s not a profitable business model and they needed to do something to try to retain more of the revenue within their own product.
I'd have expected them to try to make some money from of their position as No.1 point of data collation from any device/app. This move doesn't appear to do that so far as I can see, to me it appears to diminish their appeal to subscribers like me.
I unsubscribed when the leaderboards had lost their value and the price went up. Resubscribed when they bought FatMap and OS mapping was available but they had already lost me again when the OS maps went so I guess my opinion on this is irrelevant. Garmin Connect does all I actually use but I may not always want to be tied to Garmin
Exactly - they must be working out how to further monetise the data themselves rather than letting others do it. Currently they are just taking their ball home in a huff and not letting others play with it.
Meanwhile Zwift have announced an API integration with JOIN, and they announced Xert recently too.
I subscribe but if they persist with this idea I’ll be cancelling on the day they enforce it. I’m happy to pay for stuff I use but I’m not going to pay if I can’t then use it how I want/have been using. As above all my data comes from elsewhere.
I actually use intervals.icu for looking at the data so I’ve started looking for alternative ways to get my data from the various sources to intervals.
Think you're fine if it's just you looking at the data on intervals? The changes impact sharing the data (eg with a coach which is commonly done on that platform), in which case it's a problem.
Every user of an API connected app has one more reason to keep their Strava subscription. Open APIs increase footprint and stickyness. Seems a shortsighted at best, some would say greedy. Strava is making a profit now right? Piss off enough people then they will walk.
I guess their thinking is they feel they can get big value from data through analytics, ai, and all the rest of that crap. So from that perspective why should they enable someone else to do the same thing? However these terms and conditions read rather wide. It's a clumsy way to do it, and treads on the likes of Veloviewer who are only really filling niche gaps that Strava aren't interested in.
At the very least they need to have along talk to their comms team. Second **** up in a year?
Happy to pay for Strava (or similar) by the way, this shit costs money to make and run, probably more than most of you think. Got to pay in some way or another. Subscription is at least transparent.
I already use the Garmin feed into intervals.icu and I've emailed Ian at VeloViewer to see if he has considered that as an option too. If not, I'll not be renewing my VV subscription next month as there will literally be nothing to see on it.
Ian has sent an update out today saying he's in discussion with Strava though, so I await the outcome of that.
Given that Garmin don't charge for Connect, I can't see them opening it up to other hardware suppliers (though there are ways to get other data into Connect with a bit of FIT File editing.)
@Garry_Lager watch the DCR video. He says that all data aggregation and analysis is affected.
Doesn't directly address all the 3rd party apps, but TrainingPeaks getting their response out nice and early......tho not sure this works both ways with TrainerRoad as doesn't import activity from TP
Strava are going to have to make a better response. Saw the strava response that eckinspain mentions, but DC rainmaker reckons that they aren't being transparent enough in what that response actually means
I purely use Strava to accumulate my data from a number of sources, I use a Wahoo turbo trainer and bike computer and a Garmin watch for running and swimming, so it has been handy for that, seemingly reading the DC Rainmaker article, Strava and Garmin are too dependent on each other, but Wahoo, Fitbit etc, may not play nicely after the updates?
I'm not renewing as the route export function is clunky with Wahoo devices, back to RidewithGPS as it is a better experience for my needs.
Happy to pay for Strava (or similar) by the way, this shit costs money to make and run, probably more than most of you think. Got to pay in some way or another. Subscription is at least transparent.
Yea, but subscription fatigue is a thing.
How many app subs does a cyclists "need" theses days?
Zwift
Strava
Training Peaks / SYSTM / Trainerrroad other workout / plan / coaching creator
Komoot / RidewithGPS
Chuck in a magazine sub and club membership and you're looking at the cost of a mid-range bike each year!
Feels like the industry needs some more mergers.
To me it sounds like Strava are asserting sole commercial rights to the user data that is on their site even wherever it is, if it is also on strava you lose your rights to ownership of that data, while trying to not directly say what they are doing.
I am going to close my account, to be honest I rarely log on these days, they have always ignored the user base and recent years have fully joined up to the social media internet shitification protocols. I don't want any stupid restriction placed on my data that prevents me from using it for my benefit however I feel fit to do so, these as rules look to make strava the owner of my data so I am out.
I'm not a huge user of the actual fitness functionality of Strava, Garmin is far better for that.
But whilst i don't "live for the Kudos", it has been good being part of clubs on there, such as messaging and giving kudos to a group of fellow diabetics on there, none of us have met in real life, but comment on each others posts etc to spur each other on. That would be one thing i missed.
I does seem like they are shooting themselves in the foot really, are they not monetising this data they collect? And how many of their subscribers actually use Strava itself to gather the data, they make no turbo trainers, watches, bike computers etc? I realise that you can use the app on phone or some watches, but I bet a lot more than 70% is gathered by third party applications?
And giving a kicking to a company like Velo Viewer, a company that is now a prerequisite in every cycling DS team car, doesn't look good?
For me, as a current Strava paid up user their decision does not currently make sense.
I pay Strava not just for the in-Strava benefits but also because of the connected benefits.
Loosing those means a big loss to any benefit in using Strava, for me and clearly many more. On top of that I am really miffed at loosing fatmap. For me that is a far bigger issue and I am minded to cancel my subscription
And giving a kicking to a company like Velo Viewer, a company that is now a prerequisite in every cycling DS team car, doesn’t look good?
Well, if only the original user is allowed to see their own data, that just went out the (sticky-bottle) window.
I remember when all this was just Avocet 30s.
I stopped subscribing when the subscription more than doubled last year(?) and I honestly couldn't see the VFM in it anymore. (Ring subs went the same way...).
I haven't missed any of the paid-for elements since.
It looks like they've worsened their offering by this move and paying for it makes even less sense now....are they in trouble?
are they in trouble?
I don't think so, IMO they are just looking at ways to monetize their users data in the future, and other companies who are more agile and innovative are better at it than strava, so they want to put up barriers to them using the same data. To me my data is mine not theirs, I share it with them and others so they can do innovative things to aid everyone's active lives. Now they are saying if I upload it to them it is theirs and no one else can use that data for anything.
But they're now giving you really valuable AI insights into your performance now.
Looks like you crushed your roll out of an ill thought out policy. Whilst your subscriber numbers are lower than your recent levels you're mentions in social media are higher than normal.
the enshittification will continue until profits improve
the other way to look at this is - they've been far, far too generous for too long. How many other companies would allow a 3rd party, for-profit company, access to all their data, for nothing, forever?
There must obviously be some middle-ground whereby rather than just providing it all for free, or flat-out banning it, API access is available (for a fee) for said 3rd party companies, which is fair enough IMO.
other way to look at this is – they’ve been far, far too generous for too long. How many other companies would allow a 3rd party, for-profit company, access to all their data, for nothing, forever?
2 problems with this firstly it's not their data, I know you sign over rights but GDPR would suggest that they would be on shaky grounds trying to enforce that, and secondly they are doing this across the board as opposed to just for non-paying accounts.
There is no paid API option currently.
As a free loader who only really uses it to track coaching rides, I've downloaded my data and deleted my account. I get everything I need (and then some from the Garmin system as I record all my stuff on Garmin devices.
Other than the social side, Strava didn't give me anything I wasn't getting elsewhere...and the social stuff was giving kudos to a few people or adding ridiculously hilarious comments (never been confirmed!) on other people's activities.
No loss to me and without doubt zero loss to Strava.
I don't have many connected apps, so it isn't a huge loss to me, but I suspect this is going to mean this data gets monetised - and I'm pretty certain I won't be getting any payment for the data I'm syncing to Strava. I never used heatmaps or segment finders, so I'm not missing anything.
Hopefully those 3rd parties are able to connect to other sources like Garmin, wahoo, Lezyne, polar, suunto, etc so they can still prove very useful.
2 problems with this firstly it’s not their data,
its not your data they are preventing access to - you can still manually download it and forward it to whoever you like. It's their API's which are a bit like a delivery network for computers. And costs money to run. Pretty easy for a MBA to point at it on a spreadsheet and say 'nah'.
I don’t think an argument that personal data isn’t personal data if accessed via a programmatic API is really going to fly. The sensible move for Stave would have been to start restricting API endpoints for free users, but it sounds like they’ve **** the bed instead. Veloviewer access is likely a non-negotiable for me as a Strava subscriber. I really don’t care enough about bespoke activity names or AI cheerleading or whatever other nonsense to keep my data on Strava if they’re going to start being officious about what I can do with it via their API endpoints.
I've put this on the other Strava thread but if anyone's not seen it:
There's an option using fitfiletools.com to hack any fit file to change the device type. Anyone so interested could mimic a Garmin Edge 540 (for instance) and then upload said fit file to Garmin to get all the Garmin stats they want.
It's not automatic though so a PITA unless you're dedicated...
firstly it’s not their data
It's their data platform.
I expect the biggest cost Strava incur as a business is ensuring their APIs and underlying infrastructure are scaled to a point that allows them to service all the API requests they currently get.
So not only are they letting other companies profit from their data platform, they are spending a pretty big wad of cash to allow other companies to profit from their data platform.
While I think they way they have gone about it is poor, I am not at all surprised by this.
@vlad_the_invader Yeah not sure I cba to go through all that each time, the training load is only a passing interest as I use TP/WKO for that level of info.
Just that I had a nice chain going back several years (I know only 90 days really counts) and I’m in the process of switching from Zwift to TP so that will be broken.
Strava I’m caring less and less about, it’s just a way to stay in touch…
Is this going to bugger up Probikegarage which uses ride durations and lengths to provide servicing reminders?
They use Strava, so I push my Garmin data there so it can get through to the app.
I don’t think an argument that personal data isn’t personal data if accessed via a programmatic API is really going to fly
Thats not whats being said, its still your data, they just dont feel like its good business to be providing easy access to it for your friends.
If you pay a library to look after your books, they are still your books. Doesnt mean the library has to front the cost of copying your books and posting them to your friends. Kinda douchy if they have been doing so for years, but thats late state tech capitalism for you!
I can see a situation whereby Strava charge those 3rd party apps for using the API, and they in turn have to recoup the cost from their users. If they'd announced that was coming in a few months and given everyone a chance to react, that would have been sensible and equitable. However, they've just shit the bed completely. My VeloViewer subscription is due in a few weeks. It looks daft to renew it if there will be no data for it (and remember any use of historical data is forbidden too).
Never heard of velo viewer so just looked it up, if they are charging a fee to the user and essentially piggybacking off Strava for free then I don’t see a problem with what Strava are doing
Is this going to bugger up Probikegarage which uses ride durations and lengths to provide servicing reminders?
This question was asked in the PBG strava club chat and the developer doesn't think it's an issue.
piggybacking off Strava for free then I don’t see a problem with what Strava are doing
Strava are piggybacking off others, now they are claiming ownership of the data and not allowing those same others they are harvesting data from to use the data. Frankly everyone else should just apply the same conditions to strava, and then watch as strava collapses within days.
https://intervals.icu/ is apparently close to being ready for direct Zwift uploads.
In some ways I hope this kills off Strava and the likes of https://connect.garmin.com/modern/home or something new picks up the pieces, they plotted their own downfall over recent years.
Strava are piggybacking off others, now they are claiming ownership of the data and not allowing those same others they are harvesting data from to use the data.
I don't think that's quite accurate - Strava aren't (and can't) prevent a company like intervals.icu having access to your data as long as you can get your data direct to intervals. Currently people are using Strava as the way to bring together, store and share their data from multiple sources and I guess they have plans to monetise that.
Currently people are using Strava as the way to bring together, store and share their data from multiple sources and I guess they have plans to monetise that
Ideally monetise that - but it's costing them huge sums of money to support right now so stopping it is probably their main priority.
The fact it is being done so fast suggests to me they may be having some mild financial woes
Ideally monetise that – but it’s costing them huge sums of money to support right now so stopping it is probably their main priority.
I think they built the whole business around being the kind of community place to share your rides - and encouraging the third party apps etc. Veloviewer and all of those have attended Strava hackathons etc. And many of us who are subscribers have done that on the basis of them providing that sharing. So this is a bit of a pain they've changed their minds.
I get that they have built a big portal for data - but that was kind of what we were all buying into. People getting data out of that portal are using the portal but i don't think strava are doing anything to make individual data better (some 3rd parties seem to say that the Stravva data is degraded than Garmin data if you compare like to like)
I wonder if their main concern is 3rd parties downloading huge amounts of data to compile the heatmap kind of story that Strava are selling to local transport planning
I wonder if their main concern is 3rd parties downloading huge amounts of data to compile the heatmap kind of story that Strava are selling
This sounds a plausible explanation for their new stance.
All of this happened before...
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/07/strava-platform-dispute.html
Strava basically closed access to the Relive app that provided 3D fly-throughs post-ride.
And then introduced their own 3D fly-throughs post-ride.
The fact it is being done so fast suggests to me they may be having some mild financial woes
Or someone just did an 'audit' and thought, ooft.
How many of us would work for free so others can profit?
Post on Facebook from Veloviewer.
From David at intervals.icu, earlier today...
This is looking like one of those instances where the written T&Cs are more restricted than the company is communicating. Of course, the danger of that is that they later fall back to the T&Cs without warning.
I think they built the whole business around being the kind of community place to share your rides – and encouraging the third party apps etc. Veloviewer and all of those have attended Strava hackathons etc. And many of us who are subscribers have done that on the basis of them providing that sharing. So this is a bit of a pain they’ve changed their minds.
Yea, I think it is going to be some of these genuine use cases that are going to get hit hardest and that makes me a bit sad too. I was actually getting on well with an ai coach that pulled data from strava. This change will pull the rug from that so I need to come up with a workaround.
I get that they have built a big portal for data – but that was kind of what we were all buying into. People getting data out of that portal are using the portal but i don’t think strava are doing anything to make individual data better (some 3rd parties seem to say that the Stravva data is degraded than Garmin data if you compare like to like)
I think this is the real crux of the issue and why I think the needed to take a slightly more pragmatic approach than they have. A lot of strava users are not active users because of the features that strava offer, but because of all the interfaces Strava has with other apps. Pretty much every device can sync with Strava and pretty much every app can pull data off the strava API. This is of course because the strava api has historically been very easy to work with and strava connects with all the big players already. The side effect of this is you get people who are passive strava users but use the strava data service as a postman to get their activity data from their device to whatever apps they want.
The sheer volume of data that is getting flung around from potentially millions of people who have not even logged into strava for years is probably huge. Probably being the word here, because they are not being even slightly transparent.
They could easily have made this a subscription feature or even an add on.
I wonder if their main concern is 3rd parties downloading huge amounts of data to compile the heatmap kind of story that Strava are selling to local transport planning
This is another very good point. Although I think they still need to have user permission to connect and get the data from strava - although the big players with a lot of users could easily obtain enough data to make a heatmap viable.
Not sure how this is going to affect zwift racing and ZRL stuff but that is how I understand it works. Everyone uploads to strava purely as a database of information to then figure out the race results. Zwift and ZRL don't have the capacity to do this themselves.
the enshittification will continue until profits improve
Companies need profit though. Were you not aware of this?
Companies need profit though. Were you not aware of this?
Of course, I do run a technology company for the day job.
An update from VeloViewer
In summary, you'll just have to occasionally confirm that your OK sharing your data with folk you've already agreed to share it with.
Looks like Strava have rolled back on the tackity-bits approach.
Well, that's one fewer analysis platform now available. I know a few folk on here have used crickles. They're now prevented from using any Strava user data in their heart health analysis. This is genuine medical research being stymied by Stravas new T&Cs.
https://crickles.casa/2024/12/10/crickles-after-strava/
That is very sad to hear.
That sucks, hopefully Crickles can get access to Intervals data.
Trailforks also being badly affected. Sad as it is the 1 app which has made a huge difference to my riding experience.
Can I get Garmin to upload to Trailforks directly?
Yes, you got to your trailforks profile and then connect the Garmin Connect app.
They are working on a way to bulk upload Garmin ridelogs to Trailforks so any that were done device - Strava - Trailforks can be replaced with the bulk upload using Garmin connect.
Is there anyway to connect the Bosch Flow app directly to Trailforks?
You'd need to check the Bosch app or website and the Trailforks website and see if they connect...I can't check my Trailforks as it keeps opening the app and I can't find a connect option on there, so I'm assuming it must be on the website.
Can't see Bosch on the list of connections -
Mapmyfitness, Fitbit, wahoo, polar, trainingpeaks, suunto, whoop, coros, hammerhead Karoo, Komoot, ridewithgps, xert, bryton sport, xoss, zwift, peleton, zepp, mapmyrun, mapmyride and mapmywalk