[Closed] Stoicism - out of fashion?

Well, if Stoicism is now out of fashion I guess we will just have to accept it.

I think Coticism is more fashionable round here.

^lol.

I would say the opposite. More of a resurgence

I would say that this place is very unstoic and lacking when it comes to the socratic method of debate (as I understand it anyway)

Because bottling up what might at first seem a fairly trivial issue can lead to bigger mental health problems. Manning up, as it used to be known, is not a good thing.

Just ignore the threads you feel uncomfortable with and let the modern blokes do the helpful, compassionate stuff.

Hard times create strong men.
Strong men create good times.
Good times create weak men.
Weak men create hard times.

How about a bit of stiff upper lip or perhaps just keeping things to yourself?

sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't, it's a good thing that these days people don't feel they don't have options

thats a lot of negativity, u ok hun?

I read a Derren Brown book about happiness and he strongly promoted stoicism, which made a lot of sense to me.

Because bottling up what might at first seem a fairly trivial issue can lead to bigger mental health problems.

Which is not what stoicism is about at all.

Big S or little s?

It certainly seems out of fashion in politics given that the 4 virtues of stoicism are wisdom, justice, courage, and moderation.

They sound like the really dull dwarves 🙂

It has its place - learning to accept what we cannot change etc.

But a bit of an open discussion to get to that point is fine.

(Be careful with "you OK hun?" A mate messaged me in the summer to see if I was free for him to ring me. I said "yes, you OK hun?" - he was ringing to say he was splitting up with his wife.....🤦‍♂️ )

Which is not what stoicism is about at all.

Do you think the OP really understands what stoicism is about?

Something to do with barrels and dogs IIRC?

https://stephenbaines.medium.com/9-principles-of-stoicism-which-will-improve-your-life-6ca089c8eb37

Hard times create strong men.
Strong men create good times.
Good times create weak men.
Weak men create hard times.

Trite bollocks.

Are we talking about actual stoicism or 'stiff upper lip'.cos they aren't really the same thing.

Do you think the OP really understands what stoicism is about?

Good point, I was more reading the stoicism part.

Something to do with barrels and dogs IIRC?

And ****ing in public, don't forget ****ing in public (^for that fellow at least).

Edit: I am not sure if Diogenes was a stoic or not?

I thought the 3 virtues of stoicism;  wisdom, justice and courage were gained through alcohol

I should have known better 🤦‍♂️

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/stoicism?q=stoicism

and

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/stoicism

Apologies to you clever folk that interpreted it as something else

​the fact of not complaining or showing what you are feeling when you are suffering

Aye, that version of Stocism can get in the sea. Does no good to bottle up your emotions.

The other sort of Stocism, the Epicurean sort is on the other hand of great value.

I had forgotten the ****ing in public actually.

Do we want more of that or not?

I think sometimes openess about all your problems, or overly analysing how you're feeling about them, can tend into a bit of a victim mentality. Which is very un-Stoic.

But then understanding how and why you're feeling things is very Stoic, so far as you then act appropriately on it.

I did enjoy this...

Hard times create strong men.
Strong men create good times.
Good times create weak men.
Weak men create hard times.

It doesn't even survive contact with milliseconds of critical thought. The 1st world war - that would seem fairly hard times. Those men created a great depression (shite) and then started the 2nd world war (shitest).

Apologies to you clever folk that interpreted it as something else

🙂

Edit: I am not sure if Diogenes was a stoic or not?

I looked at the pic and wasn't sure whether it WAS Dodgyknees or not. The barrel is there, but I don't know his story well enough to know what it is with the dogs and lighting a lantern in daytime?

Need more Stackovites....

Dig for Victory comrades.

I looked at the pic and wasn’t sure whether it WAS Dodgyknees or not. The barrel is there, but I don’t know his story well enough to know what it is with the dogs

I don't remember the dogs either, maybe the painter just liked dogs?

"things were better in the olden days, we just got on with it!"

SHARE IF YOU AGREE

I find when something upsets me that talking it over or trying to sort it out in my mind only gets me more agitated. I have to walk away from situations and force myself to calm down and think about other things. On here for example, I find it much better to light the blue touch paper and run away rather than stand my ground and argue with all you clever clogs . 🙂

^^😅😅 shared (not)

Seems like lots of folk have to wear their heart on their sleeve and tell others how they are feeling at all times.
How about a bit of stiff upper lip or perhaps just keeping things to yourself?

I’ve spent my entire life doing that. The last nine months have put me into such a dark emotional place that it’s proved impossible to just bottle it up, and as someone has said, to do so isn’t a good thing to do.

I did once see a sign on a door that said ‘This door is alarmed’, underneath was written ’but stoic’, which really made me chuckle.

I don’t remember the dogs either, maybe the painter just liked dogs?

Did he not live with stray dogs?

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/stoicism?q=stoicism

and

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/stoicism

Apologies to you clever folk that interpreted it as something else

Those are definitions of the word, not the teachings of the philosophy.

Here’s a reading list for you

Seneca - Letters from a Stoic

Epictetus - Discourses, Fragments, Handbook

Marcus Aurelius - Meditations

Have a read, and you’ll realise a “stiff upper lip” is bugger all to do with Stoicism.

I was hoping this was a spin-off from How to Train a Dragon...obviously not.

I just mix it all in.

I find when something upsets me that talking it over or trying to sort it out in my mind only gets me more agitated. I have to walk away from situations and force myself to calm down and think about other things

That is my natural instinct but it's not always the best approach there are techniques though. Talking and walking side by side, sitting next to and talking to someone but not directly etc help massively. The storming out I have realised just means I missed my window to actually deal with stuff and it's got on top of me.

Apologies to you clever folk that interpreted it as something else

Apologies for knowing what stoicism actually is and making you feel bad.

Apologies for knowing what stoicism actually is and making you feel bad.

Don’t worry, you didn’t 😀

Hard times create strong men.
Strong men create good times.
Good times create weak men.
Weak men create hard times.

Complete codswallop.

Apologies for knowing what stoicism actually is and making you feel bad.

He'll think about it and get over it.

😉

So the dog guy in the barrel.... ****ing in public. Just trying to work out what that could be. What's wrong with adjusting your lantern in public? Or is he playing with his wick? Cockney rhyming slang... in 1860? Apparently Diogenes was "Reproached for behaving indecently in public, he lamented only that he wished it were as easy to relieve hunger by rubbing one's stomach".

Did he not live with stray dogs?

Look, it was almost 30 years ago I was at university. I just remembered the barrel and him asking someone to get out of his sunlight.

Remembers to pick up the 'Philosophize this!' podcast from where I left it

Hard times create hard men
Hard men are emotionally damaged
Which creates problems for their children
Best to avoid hard times if possible

^^ 👍

I guess if you've money, privilege and slaves to do all the tedious drudgery for you, then devoting your time to the attainment of virtue fills the time...Mind you having said that, do you want to take advice from some-one who went through life consulting the oracle for all major life decisions, and it advised him once to take on the "complexion of the dead".

Look, it was almost 30 years ago I was at university. I just remembered the barrel and him asking someone to get out of his sunlight.

Good grief, it must be gloomy in Greece if you need to light a lantern when someone stands in the sun putting you in the shadow. Almost like Swansea today, I'm thinking.. 😀

https://stephenbaines.medium.com/9-principles-of-stoicism-which-will-improve-your-life-6ca089c8eb37/blockquote >
I used to work with Stephen. He'll be pleased he's being linked on a mountain bike forum.

On the broader point, it seems we are agreed that stiff upper lips are bad and out of fashion, but Stoicism would be good.

 

Good grief, it must be gloomy in Greece if you need to light a lantern when someone stands in the sun putting you in the shadow. Almost like Swansea today, I’m thinking.

I'm sure a stoic mindset is a benefit in Swansea at this time of year.

I don't know what stoicism is and can't be arsed to look it up as it seems multiple people here think it means different things.

I do however know that toxic masculinity is a thing. Man up. Big boys don't cry. Are you a man or a mouse? And a supporting cast of thousands of others. And **** that, we're not robots.

In wholly unrelated news, three quarters of all UK suicides are male. Which, obviously, we're not allowed to talk about.

Funny enough I was talking to my Counsellor yesterday about Stoicism.

All that 'stiff upper lip' stuff... that's not Stoicism, in fact, most of that thinking comes from post-war propaganda, it lead to a lot of Boomers trying to live to a how they thought their hero fathers lived, at least the hollywood version of it. If you want to try to live your life hiding all emotion, bad or good, that's up to you. If you think it'll make you seem like that Actor in an old War film who stands to attention as his ship goes down, it won't, you'll just end up like that moody bloke down the pub who can only express himself with anger.

As it was explained to me at least, it's accepting that things can, and will go wrong, that you can be sad, angry or whatever, but it's not the end of the world and we can all, usually, dust ourselves off and carry on.

IME People who are annoyed by others showing their emotions, or "whining all the time" etc are the most repressed themselves, as if witnessing someone else's emotions be the final straw that will cause them to lose control of their own.

If you think it’ll make you seem like that Actor in an old War film who stands to attention as his ship goes down, it won’t, you’ll just end up like that moody bloke down the pub who can only express himself with anger.

Also, you'll drown.

I don’t know what stoicism is and can’t be arsed to look it up as it seems multiple people here think it means different things

It is a school of philosophy espoused by some of the ancients. If you decide you can be arsed, Meditations by Marcus Aurelius (as seen in Gladiator) is an easy and rewarding read.

The start of this thread coincided with the one I started about my Dad. If it's that which prompted your feelings on this then I'm sorry. I've always seen this place as somewhere people can let others know how they are feeling, more so than in real life, and get some genuine good advice.

I've done bottling it up and not letting people know what was going on and it nearly broke me

I can't speak for everyone of course, but I don't see as you have anything to apologise for. If it makes people think then quite the opposite in fact.

@spin - cheers, I have a "to read" list that's almost as embarrassing as my Steam Library shelf of shame but if you recommend it then I'll stick it on the list.

Need more Stackovites….

Dig for Victory comrades.

Stakhanovite.. try to get it right... 🙂

Great thread.

Stoicism is very attractive as it lends itself very easily yo practical everyday application. However, I wonder if you would end up appearing very emotionally dead as a result?

Going back to OP's original point I often wonder if the rise in emotional outpouring is linked to the rise of populism? Unreason and reliance on visceral passions has always been a tool of the right. Nietzsche would have hated stoicism.

It's very applicable to cycling as well.

Oh it's raining, well I'll just get wet and not complain. I've done it before and I know it works out OK in the end.

Unless it's that windy rain that hits you in the face and really stings. Then it can **** right off.

If anyone's on Instagram, 'Daily Stoic' is a good follow.

cheers, I have a “to read” list that’s almost as embarrassing as my Steam Library shelf of shame but if you recommend it then I’ll stick it on the list

For free: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2680

It's the sort of thing you can dip into or read in its entirety. One of the central ideas is that although we have no control over what life throws at us we do have control over how we respond. Obviously that's a bit simplistic because a lot of mental illness involves people not feeling in control of their responses but I still think it's a really powerful and empowering idea.

hat windy rain that hits you in the face and really stings. Then it can **** right off

i hear you brother

Since toxic masculinity has been mentioned and as it's my birthday (in April) I thought I'd mention toxic femininity. You know, the one where a woman posts on Facebook That she's just climbed the Eiger Nordwand in winter and 90% of the comments from women are on the lines of "how beautiful you look". It starts when girls are still in their cots that folk, usually women, tell them how beautiful they look and it goes downhill from there.
Have lit the blue touch paper, now I'm off...merry christmas everyone! 🙂

has always been a tool of the right. Nietzsche would have hated stoicism

@shooterman Nietzsche wasn't right wing. That came from his sister taking over his writing after he died.

Not so sure. Interesting listen:

Have you read any of his work? I didn't get right wing at all, and certainly not antisemitic from Beyond Good and Evil. In fact, he was rather complimentary towards Judaism. Not quite a strong Nazi vibe at all.

His sister, Elizabeth, was apparently ultra-nationalist. Took over his manuscripts after his death. Followers of his work fought to get the nationalism removed.

I'd rather read the author's work and make a decision rather than listen to a book based on likely historical inaccuracies.

It is a school of philosophy espoused by some of the ancients.

and it can also mean to show no pain or complaint during hardship. It's OK for a word to have two meanings.

@swdan no, it's a coincidence - I hope things go as well as they can for you.

It’s OK for a word to have two meanings.

Indeed, even more than 2. And it's also ok to discuss one of the meanings without referring to the others.

Hard times create strong men.
Strong men create good times.
Good times create weak men.
Weak men create the Dark Side.

Fixed.

Also, if not being stoic means that people don't bottle stuff up then that can only be a good thing.

It doesn’t even survive contact with milliseconds of critical thought. The 1st world war – that would seem fairly hard times. Those men created a great depression (shite) and then started the 2nd world war (shitest).

Or

WW1
Roaring 20s
Depression+WW2
Boomers
Thatcher
90s, North sea oil, property, dot.com booms
Current shitshow.

Bacchus was a bit more up my street.

Nietzsche would have hated stoicism.

How so? Or are you referring to Nietzsche being horrifically miss used by the Nazis? There is a good book "Nietzsche and the Nazis" that is on YouTube as an audiobook.

Edit: I see it's linked above.

On the two meanings for one word it's interesting. It seems from the definition linked to by the op that it's one of those cases where an incorrect definition has (for some reason maybe cultural) occurred and then become the more commonly known definition. This then means it is correct within "normal" conversation for many so can be correct in its usage in a set context in a particular conversion even though the actual definition is incorrect.

So it may be correct to say that "John is reacting in a stoic manner", to say he is bottling things up in a conversion maybe about someone dealing with grief. As it is using a common definition of the word stoic or stoicism.

However it is not correct to say stoicism is about bottling things up, as this this trying to define stoicism incorrectly, rather than the word I a particular common context.

Loads of other things end up having this right but ring definition. I personally didn't know about the definition linked to so it's good to know that many think this is the definition so that I can interpret a conversation correctly. This is obviously important and a big part of conversation is the implicit assumption of a shared definition of terms, words, phrases etc.

I’d rather read the author’s work and make a decision rather than listen to a book based on likely historical inaccuracies.

The book linked actually does a good job of showing how far off the Nazis where from his writings and how they missed them.

(Not an expert in this by any means just my interpretation / readings).

swdan
Free Member
The start of this thread coincided with the one I started about my Dad. If it’s that which prompted your feelings on this then I’m sorry.

I can't speak for the op but I doubt your completely understandable and heartfelt thread was in his head when he started this.

As cougar said, you have nothing,zero at all to apologise for matey.

On the two meanings for one word it’s interesting.

With stoicism, I think it's mostly the difference between technical usage and colloquial usage, made more confusing by the fact that the colloquial usage is related to the technical term.

The word philosophical gets used in a similar way. When we describe someone as being philosophical about something we usually mean resigned to it not that they've undertaken some in depth analysis of it!

Context innit?

@spin definitely, like most things contex and perspective.

Which tenously links round to...

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth

I'm not so sure about that, I'd like to maintain that there is such a thing objective truth in some matters but I'm also immediately wary of anything that's claimed as such! Also, many of the most interesting and useful things we can say certainly aren't amenable to outright proof or wouldn't meet most people's standards for objective truth.