[Closed] Stayer Cycles - Ultra Distance Scholarship

Basically please do not apply if you are white.

Hmm, tricky ground this and I get the need to 'redress the balance' within the cycling community as a whole, but I'm not convinced that a company should be allowed to specify racial identity as part of an open application process.

but I’m not convinced that a company should be allowed to specify racial identity as part of an open application process

Thats my thoughts. Id love the oppertunity to apply for something like this. Not being allowed to based on the colour of my skin has to be wrong surely?

They would of been better offering 2 places, one for BAME and one for everyone else.

no idea on the legality of it, but presumably we'd all be ok with a company allowing a restricted set of people to try for a women's bike team?

I imagine there are circumstances where this is allowable. See Chineke! Orchestra for example.

I'm all in favour of encouraging participation in all sorts of activities for those groups who perhaps for some reason feel it's not for them - largely I suspect because they are perceived as the preserve of white, middle class, etc. and not for them. For instance I'm pleased to see far more "non-white" faces out in the hills, walking, riding, climbing, than there were only a few years ago.

That may mean making special provision to attract these groups, but shouldn't mean continued segregation. I'm sure that's not the aim.

In an ideal world we wouldn't have international woman's day, black history month, pride, men wouldn't get paid a 3rd more to do the same job as woman, but this world isn't ideal so we do. That also means we need stuff like this to address the balance and increase diversity in cycling. If they opened this to all they would be swamped with applications from white people (most likely blokes) which makes it less likely that a BAME person would get selected which would continue the diversity problem in cycling.

In an ideal world we wouldn’t have international woman’s day, black history month, pride, men wouldn’t get paid a 3rd more to do the same job as woman, but this world isn’t ideal so we do. That also means we need stuff like this to address the balance and increase diversity in cycling. If they opened this to all they would be swamped with applications from white people (most likely blokes) which makes it less likely that a BAME person would get selected which would continue the diversity problem in cycling.

Yeah, everything you have said there is fairly obvious. The difference between this and say women's day or black history month is that this is an opportunity that is only being offered to a group of people based on their race. If they were organising a group ride (open to all) and calling it "Ride for BAME" or whatever then you could compare with pride or womens day.

The difference between this and say women’s day or black history month is that this is an opportunity that is only being offered to a group of people based on their race.

Do you not think plenty of opportunities are only offered to white people (specifically males) due to the colour of their skin?

Personally I think there is a good thing until the diversity balance in cycling is addressed more needs to be done to get woman and BAME people into the sport.

Imagine joining a team and being the only white guy there and surrounded by a group of people who throughout your life have made your life harder bet it wouldn't be a very welcome feeling.

Do you not think plenty of opportunities are only offered to white people (specifically males) due to the colour of their skin?

NO. If you can give any examples i would be totally shocked. There would be outrage if such a thing existed.

Personally I think there is a good thing until the diversity balance in cycling is addressed more needs to be done to get woman and BAME people into the sport.

Couldn't agree more, but not at the expense of opportunity for other groups.

Imagine joining a team and being the only white guy there and surrounded by a group of people who throughout your life have made your life harder bet it wouldn’t be a very welcome feeling.

Do you really think BAME people have spent thier whole lives being oppressed by the white man? C`mon, that really does not happen does it?

The scholarship is hurting no-one and is going to benefit three folk directly, and might encourage quite a few more. Trailwagger, if you want to do GBDuro just sort your own entry and training plan out.

Given your responses Trailwagger im like sorta sure your basically trolling there is no way you can be this unaware of structural racism and an unconscious bias.

Given your responses Trailwagger im like sorta sure your basically trolling there is no way you can be this unaware of structural racism and an unconscious bias

Are you for real? No I'm not trolling. This scholarship popped on a news feed. When I first read it my initial reaction was "should you be trying to improve inclusivity by excluding certain groups?" And given that the exclusion is based on race, doesn't that just equate to racism under the guise of being woke?
There is no way I can be this unaware of the structural racism and unconscious bias. Are you saying that there is structural racism within cycling that is preventing ethnic minorities from participating? Where is your evidence for this?
A sustrans report on diversity in cycling says that the majority on ethnic minorty people questioned said that infrastructure, cost and security were the main factors for non participation, not structural racism or even a lack of role models.

Given your responses Trailwagger im like sorta sure your basically trolling there is no way you can be this unaware of structural racism and an unconscious bias.

I'm also sure your trolling to be fair because you completely miss the point of his post to try and force your nail through the turnip

Fwiw I see/appreciate what the companies trying to do I just think it's implemented badly.

Fwiw I see/appreciate what the companies trying to do I just think it’s implemented badly.

Me too. That's why I posted about it on here. I wanted to know if it was just me or if other people thought that this was a good idea done badly.

Are you for real? No I’m not trolling. This scholarship popped on a news feed. When I first read it my initial reaction was “should you be trying to improve inclusivity by excluding certain groups?”

Honestly your view is just so far outside of my social circle I sorta assumed so. I think this is the second year strayer have run it or last year they did something similar with wizard works. I honestly see this nothing but an amazing step at trying to increase the diversity within cycle. And don't see it as racist or discrimination at all. It's similar to what the likes of bcn, velociposse and new forest off road club are doing to a degree.
Cycling is basically full of white males and until we have a more even playing field in terms of participation stuff like this needs to happen.

I didn't mean to cause you any offense it's just so far away from any conversation I have had about this.

I didn’t mean to cause you any offense it’s just so far away from any conversation I have had about this.

No offense taken. It was a genuine post to see what other peoples opinions on it were, so thank you for yours. I dont think anyone would object to an effort to increase diversity in any given situation. However i think that offering amazing opportunities like this and stating its only open to certain groups is not a good way of going about it. Like i said before, hold a mass participation event that everyone can get involved in and call it "Ride for Diversity". Thats a better idea in my mind than saying heres this fantastic scholarship where you get given loads of free stuff and get coached by an expert for 6 months oh but all you white folk arent invited.

this approach is in no way new. Plenty of jobs, politic roles and other areas have women-only or minority-only shortlists

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-women_shortlist

If nothing else, it's good for outing the 'I'm not racist but...' types.

One of the downsides of being a white male is you're going to be excluded from schemes that attempt to increase diversity. It's a hard life, I know.

But yeah sure, let's get a big group of white people and Eliot Jackson to go out on our bikes and call it a Ride for Diversity instead. I'm sure that'll increase participation amongst minorities.

People who complain about this kind of thing, if they aren't already racist, are flirting with it. See also, people who say Gammon is a racist term.

this approach is in no way new. Plenty of jobs, politic roles and other areas have women-only or minority-only shortlists

Thats interesting and something i never knew about. I have the same feelings with this, its the forced manipulation of the selection to create an artificial equity. There are no barriers that mean its harder for a woman to be elected as an MP, there is already equality of opportunity. Trying to force equity of outcome by restricting the equality of opportunity for certain groups is not right imho.

There are no barriers that mean its harder for a woman to be elected as an MP, there is already equality of opportunity.

Seriously!?

One of the downsides of being a white male is you’re going to be excluded from schemes that attempt to increase diversity. It’s a hard life, I know.

Well diversity has its place. But there are places where diversity shouldn't be forced. Imagine you were looking for a job. You have been out of work for a while and money is starting to run out. You have a mortgage to pay and a family to feed. An opportunity is advertised and it is your dream job. You are highly qualified and meet all of the person and job spec criteria. When you click on apply the website says "We are only accepting applications from ethnic minority groups" would you be upset? do you think that's fair?

Inferring that I am a racist has no basis at all, so I assume you are just saying that as you have no argument against my point of view. Therefore shutting down the discussion with slurs on my character is the best way to go for you. Stay classy.

They tried something for one of the national orchestras I seem to remember to encourage 'non-white' participation in classical music and then got lots of applications from Chinese musicians who are already well represented because they specified "Non-White" instead of "Under Represented"

I think it might be better to say if you identify with "Under Represented" you can apply and explain why you feel under represented.

It would also give valuable insight into how different people feel excluded from the subject.

Inferring that I am a racist has no basis at all, so I assume you are just saying that as you have no argument against my point of view. Therefore shutting down the discussion with slurs on my character is the best way to go for you. Stay classy.

Yeah, I'm kind of over the whole being patient with people who are still so willfully ignorant of structural racism they can make up stories about a poor guy whose kids don't have food and compare that to an attempt to increase diversity in cycling. I can't really be bothered beating around the bush anymore.

But sure, I feel bad for the middle aged unemployed white guy who saw the advert for this ultra distance scholarship and for a moment thought it was his opportunity to keep a roof over his family's head only to find that he wasn't eligible because he was white. If he starts a GoFundMe so he can compete in the GBDURO I might even contribute.

For what it's worth, I think it's difficult to say if someone is racist or not. However, I think it's much easier to say if someone is saying something racist or not.

You are saying things that are flirting with racism. You are attempting to deny structural racism exists and while simultaneously coming up with 'solutions' that you know for a fact will make absolutely no difference.

If you don't want to take a long hard look at yourself and ask yourself if the reason you're upset about this is because you might harbour some prejudices then that's fine. Nothing I say is going to change your mind so I might as well just say what I see and move on.

Yeah, I’m kind of over the whole being patient with people who are still so willfully ignorant of structural racism they can make up stories about a poor guy whose kids don’t have food and compare that to an attempt to increase diversity in cycling. I can’t really be bothered beating around the bush anymore.

Can you give me any examples of structural racism in cycling?

You are saying things that are flirting with racism.

Really? Where?

If you don’t want to take a long hard look at yourself and ask yourself if the reason you’re upset about this is because you might harbour some prejudices then that’s fine. Nothing I say is going to change your mind so I might as well just say what I see and move on.

Im not "upset" about it. I am questioning if its the correct way to increase diversity in cycling. I think its an amazing opportunity and one that would appeal to a huge number of cyclists who may not have the chance to do something like this otherwise (me included) So yes, its a shame that I cannot apply and have a chance to win this amazing experience.

Really? Where?

Well I'll take my opportunity to distance my self from this

There are no barriers that mean its harder for a woman to be elected as an MP, there is already equality of opportunity.

to say that minority's do not have a tougher time getting appointed is wrong.

NO. If you can give any examples i would be totally shocked. There would be outrage if such a thing existed.

This is a racist thing to say. You are denying that white males have an advantage over others.

Do you really think BAME people have spent thier whole lives being oppressed by the white man? C`mon, that really does not happen does it?

Denying Structural racism.

And given that the exclusion is based on race, doesn’t that just equate to racism under the guise of being woke?

Woke means you are aware of the problems of structural racism. It's not a bad thing.

Are you saying that there is structural racism within cycling that is preventing ethnic minorities from participating?

You're saying there's not. Really? Just the fact that there are very few minorities cycling is a barrier to involvement.

Well diversity has its place. But there are places where diversity shouldn’t be forced.

Yes, racism is bad. However, we shouldn't do anything about it because reasons.

I have not looked into it but there is a fair chance that the money is coming from a grant to expand opportunities for black people hence no white people.

Also, get over yourself.

Racism doesn't have to be blatant, or even acknowledged, to be structural.

There is a [b]huge[/b] problem with cycling being a white man's sport, especially at a competitive / professional level. And consequently Black / BAME / any other under-represented people may not be specifically discriminated against - in fact in many places they're often welcomed - but if they turn up and don't see any people like them, and all the non-sport chat is stuff they culturally can't relate to, then the "structure" of the thing they're doing has a racist bias in that it's exclusive - even if it's unintentionally exclusive.

I live and work in South East London. Round here there's a brilliantly diverse ethnic and cultural mixture of people. Walk down Rye Lane in Peckham and you'll see and hear people from at least 20 or 30 different countries and cultures in a single minute.

But most local clubs are concerned that their membership is predominantly white men; I was at Herne Hill Velodrome last night for the last night of their track league, and I'd estimate around 1% of the racers and spectators would describe themselves as BAME. And that is massively at odds with the surrounding population, to the extent that even though many clubs are actively working on outreach to non-white-male people, just turning up and not seeing people like yourself can be off-putting to new members.

So I'd argue there are more than enough straight white men in the sport, they've had plenty of opportunities so far, and I'd definitely approve of any initiative to actively increase diversity and inclusivity, at any level.

There is a huge problem with cycling being a white man’s sport, especially at a competitive / professional level. And consequently Black / BAME / any other under-represented people may not be specifically discriminated against – in fact in many places they’re often welcomed – but if they turn up and don’t see any people like them, and all the non-sport chat is stuff they culturally can’t relate to, then the “structure” of the thing they’re doing has a racist bias in that it’s exclusive – even if it’s unintentionally exclusive.

Wow, i really have heard it all now. Chatting about stuff that other cultures cant relate to is racist?

Think it over trailwagger… it took me years to make the shift myself… racial bias and exclusion can become embedded in any aspect of society, or in any organisation, or institution, or sport, or past time, or employer, or art, or forum without a single person having racist intentions.

No, trailwagger, you're either being deliberately difficult here or misunderstanding how racism is felt. That's not what I said.

If you turn up somewhere because you want to take part in something, and none of the people there look like you, or maybe talk like you, or culturally have a lot in common with you, you're not going to feel like you fit in. So you're less likely to want to take part than if you turned up and immediately identified with the people there.

And that is where race, or gender, or whatever, plays a part. And if we want our sport to reflect the diversity in our society then we sometimes need to do things to deliberately encourage people who wouldn't normally feel like they fit in, to join in - and then the next step is to encourage them to be visibly involved in the leadership of the sport so that others like them will feel more welcome too.

Think it over trailwagger… it took me years to make the shift myself…

I think many of us have thought the same way at some point. I know I did.

However, ignorance is no longer an excuse. Ignorance of structural racism today can only be willful unless you've been living on a desert island for the last five years.

I have absolutely no patience for the willfully ignorant anymore.

Think it over trailwagger… it took me years to make the shift myself… racial bias and exclusion can become embedded in any aspect of society, or in any organisation, or institution, or sport, or past time, or employer, or art, or forum without a single person having racist intentions.

Yeah i get that it could be a thing where people are making choices, such as job applications. But as a barrier to becoming a cyclist? I think not. You can buy a bike if you want, no-one is going to stop you. You can join a club if you want, no-one is going to stop you. You can sign up for a race or sportive if you want, no-one is going to stop you. Where is the BIAS there exactly?

I think this issue needs to be split up though. There a several types of cyclists.

1. Those that use bicycles as transport.

2. Those that use bicycles for fitness and leisure

3. Professional cyclist

1 and 2 are free choice. 3 has an element of selection to it so i agree there could be some bias there.

You can join a club if you want, no-one is going to stop you.
...
2. Those that use bicycles for fitness and leisure

Why would you WANT to join a club that has nobody like you in it?

You can buy a bike if you want, no-one is going to stop you.

Someone may stop you from getting a job that gives you enough disposable income for a bike though.

Why would you WANT to join a club that has nobody like you in it?

But there ARE people like me in it, cyclists. Thats kinda what clubs are, they are places where people share a common interest.

Someone may stop you from getting a job that gives you enough disposable income for a bike though.

and that has absolutley nothing to do with cycling and everything to do with that individual and or company. It does not make the cycling community racist or biased.

It’s a societal problem. That’s the point. Stayer are trying to redress the balance.

and that has absolutley nothing to do with cycling and everything to do with that individual and or company. It does not make the cycling community racist or biased.

Just do a quick google on "cinelli racism" and tell me cycling doesn't have a race/gender problem.

https://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/5-reasons-to-listen-the-downtime-podcast-on-racism-in-mtb/

Trailwagger - did you listen to this when it was first promoted on here? If this doesn't answer your questions I know I can't.

Worth your time, I think your points will be addressed.