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so , cameron is sorry that the state was heavily involved with targeting and ensuring assassination of those it considered problematic.
Public enquiry denied, don't want the real state methods exposed for all to see......
This is why we do not live in a so called democracy, who are the terrorists ??
Five minutes before this statement he was saying how the loyalist trouble makers of last week were no way loyal nor representative of what they claim to be loyal to and that any violence shouldn't be tolerated. (Or words to that effect).
ahhh more "I can't believe it's not terrorism". Only commie's, Muslims and Irish catholics are terrorists.
See my rant on the London Blitz thread.
davidjones15 - MemberFive minutes before this statement he was saying how the loyalist trouble makers of last week were no way loyal nor representative of what they claim to be loyal to and that any violence shouldn't be tolerated. (Or words to that effect).
Words are cheap.
The failure to hold a proper enquiry into the death of Pat Finucane is a disgrace.
This is Britain, for God's sake, not Chile under Pinochet.
Five minutes before this statement he was saying how the loyalist trouble makers of last week were no way loyal nor representative of what they claim to be loyal to and that any violence shouldn't be tolerated. (Or words to that effect).
I thought we were supposed to have moved on from all the sectarian violence. Princess Tony had a hand in it, so it must be so.
This is Britain, for God's sake, not Chile under Pinochet.
Our politicians can wish can't they?
“I once called her up to tell her that I'd had 200 trade unionists shot dead and thrown into the sea. "Gusty, dear," she replied, "Give me the resources you have and I'd create a new island of dead leftists in the South Pacific by lunchtime tomorrow." Damn, she's cold!” ~ Augusto Pinochet on Margaret Thatcher 😛
The Saville inquiry cost over £200 million, the Billy Wright one cost over £30 million, whilst clearly wrong was done and has been admitted, does it really make sense to set up yet another costly exercise?
Yes, if the state actively helped to murder someone I would hope an inquiry was bloody well made.
Failing to undertake an inquiry will only lead to more songs with the words "**** tha British Army" being played in Irish pubs and the resultant explodey things that go with that public sentiment.
The Saville inquiry cost over £200 million
hopefully not the jimmy one.
Then there was the stalker inquiry, and strangely as deputy chief constable, he ended up selling double glazing, after alledged links where made between him and alledged criminals.
mefty - MemberThe Saville inquiry cost over £200 million, the Billy Wright one cost over £30 million, whilst clearly wrong was done and has been admitted, does it really make sense to set up yet another costly exercise?
If you'd like to have the slightest bit of confidence in our country as a reasonable, honest and democratic state, accountable to it's people, yes.
If you're happy to see death squads operating with impunity, organising the murder of law abiding citizens that they simply disagree with, then I guess not.
how mealy mouthed is hiding behind 'cost' as a reason for not holding a public enquiry-- they are murderers, they did so at the behest of state organisations , in chile it was called the 'dirty war' against trade unionists and the elected govt, do not forget how pally pinochet and thatcher were !
Given that most of the loyalist and nationalist terrorists from back then were released on license as part of the end to violence, I can't see what can be achieved by constantly dragging over old news.
It's clear that certain acts were either supported, sanctioned or a blind eye turned to back then. Maybe the only way to fight an opponent waging a guerilla war is to adopt the same approach. It doesn't make it right but it happened. Time to move on.
he failure to hold a proper enquiry into the death of Pat Finucane is a disgrace.
this but with some swearing added before disgrace
We - the state- colluded with terrorists to allow them to murder him.
Finucane was shot dead at his home in Fortwilliam Drive, north Belfast, by Ken Barrett and another masked man using a Browning Hi-Power 9mm pistol and a .38 revolver respectively. He was hit 14 times.[11] The two gunmen knocked down the front door with a sledgehammer and entered the kitchen where Finucane had been having a Sunday meal with his family; they immediately opened fire and shot him twice, knocking him to the floor. Then while standing over him, the leading gunman fired 12 bullets into his face at close range.[12] His wife Geraldine was slightly wounded in the shooting attack which their three children witnessed as they hid underneath the table.
Shocking
I can't see what can be achieved by constantly dragging over old news.
I think its justice.
It's clear that certain acts were either supported, sanctioned or a blind eye turned to back then.
Indeed it is and we need to account for our behaviour as some it was poor , some of it bad and some it outright illegal and resulted in murders.
We cannot as a nation just shrug and go shit happens live with it.
Maybe the only way to fight an opponent waging a guerilla war is to adopt the same approach.
I doubt it is the only way as this did not lead to peace but talking did and that would have been illegal and the govt went to great pains to state they were not doing this.
It doesn't make it right but it happened. Time to move on
Think some folk still need justce to get closure or at least an apology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_(South_Africa)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20245311
Read the footnote
(The IRA also targeted the village of Tullyhommon, 20 miles from Enniskillen, where members of the Boys' and Girls' Brigades were holding a Remembrance Day parade. The bomb was four times the size of the Enniskillen device but it failed to detonate.)
The bomb in Enniskillen was a smaller bomb. If the bomb had gone off in Tullyhommon we'd have had the mass slaughter of children.
It seems the South Africans have a better formula.
That said I honestly thought there would never be peace in NI in my lifetime and there are children who have grown up and known nothing other than peace.
Rudeboy - having grown up in NI through the troubles and lost friends without there being a conviction or public enquiry I'd like to see all sides of the conflict held to the same degree of scrutiny.
But, the world has moved on. Suspected former terrorists on both sides holding political office trying to make the place work.
Unless an enquiry has a prospect of bringing criminal charges then I can't see what it solves. A public enquiry will not do that.
When Gerry and Martin and their chums agree to come clean about their involvement in the death of Jean McConville and the rest of the disappeared, then I'll think its fair that we hold a public enquiry into the death of Pat Finucane.
Personally, I think that a proper truth and reconciliation commission should have been constituted several years ago, with powers to ensure proper compliance!
And as for Finucane - If you sup with the devil, be sure to use a long spoon!
that depends entirely what perspective you are looking at it from, there are a number of angles.mefty - Member
The Saville inquiry cost over £200 million, the Billy Wright one cost over £30 million, whilst clearly wrong was done and has been admitted, does it really make sense to set up yet another costly exercise?
He wasn't a terrorist.
Or fighting a guerilla war.
He was a lawyer, An officer of the court.
And it wasn't
, it was a murder organised by our police and armed forces.supported, sanctioned or a blind eye turned
It doesn't make it right but it happened. Time to move on.
Would you say that about the murderers who organised the Omagh bombing?
So Z11 you think we should allow trials to go ahead with no defence lawyer?
I think he thinks that if the state colludes to have them murdered then its ok as they sup with the devil 😕
I do agree that truth and reconciliation is the way and there are tragedies and misdeeds on all sides done by all involved including our govt.
Druidh
I said a long spoon
Solicitors are supposed to be honest brokers and officers of the court, they hold a duty is to the court, but when they are working in collusion with their accused client to fabricate alibis, intimidate witnesses, make false statements etc then the solicitor is is no longer supping with that long spoon, they have become conspirators in murder in just the same way as RUC and FRU officers are being accused of today.
And before you say there is no proof of that, I'll point you towards the precise words in todays accusation of state collusion - [i]I believe, on the balance of probabilities... In the absence of any video or audio recording, or direct admissions from those involved[/i]
Still doesn't make murdering a solicitor right, where's the proof he was colluding? That's for courts to decide not guns. If we want to hold ourselves in higher esteem than the IRA then only proper IRA gunmen were legitimate targets.
Rusty
The IRA considered themselves a legitimate armed force. They targeted civilians. That's fact.
However I'm not justifying a murder but there are a few players who should be grateful that HMG didn't take a leaf from the Israeli response. That was to actively target and kill senior members of designated terrorist groups. Is that wrong? Absolutely.
The week after the Brighton bomb the Sunday Express ran an anti IRA editorial. Just below the editorial they used to print a quote of the day. On this occasion it was a quote from a famous Irish Republican called Michael Collins along the lines of "you can't put an idea against the wall and shoot it to death". Reconciliation has to crystallise at some point. That's why we should have assembled a truth and reconciliation commission long ago as these events from both sides will drag the peace process back.
Natural justice means people need to understand who, why, what and when from ALL sides. A public enquiry into this one act does not bring justice to the countless others on both sides who have lost loved ones.
However I'm not justifying a murder but there are a few players who should be grateful that HMG didn't take a leaf from the Israeli response. That was to actively target and kill senior members of designated terrorist groups. Is that wrong? Absolutely.
Except he wasn't really a senior member was he, he was associated with them but not a fully fledged member carrying out or planning ops. There would be a lot of dead lawyers if we all decided to murder them when they helped to tell porkies.
Bwaarp
It is wrong that agents of the state were involved in criminal activity, murder, It makes them criminals.
It is also wrong that by supporting the IRA and colluding to falsify evidence and alibi's to see guilty people evade justice, Finucane also facilitated the murders of countless numbers of other people
Dirty wars have dirty tactics. The reason this won't be properly investigated is because its not an isolated incident. This is how it's done.
Still doesn't justify state sponsored murder because he was a bad man, he was indirectly involved....he didn't have direct access to guns or bombs and was therefore not an immediate threat who could be dealt with by force.
Remind me again, when was the death penalty abolished. I believe it was in the 50's not 1989.
Dirty wars have dirty tactics. The reason this won't be properly investigated is because its not an isolated incident. This is how it's done.
All the more reason not to get involved and let the paddies kill each other.
Still doesn't justify state sponsored murder
When did anyone justify it?
All the more reason not to get involved and let the paddies kill each other.
If they had just kept to killing each other in shit-on-shit crimes rather than innocent bystanders and mothers of ten who they accused of touting, then I don't think we ever would have!
If they had just kept to killing each other in shit-on-shit crimes rather than innocent bystanders and mothers of ten who they accused of touting, then I don't think we ever would have!
We'd been involved since Cromwell.....if they'd kept it to military targets we still would have been. Misguided loyalty to the protestant population etc, should have done one and buried our heads in the sand and pretended to be innocent.
In the end if it had just been Ireland's problem to sort out there would have never been some genocide of protestants, they'd have just had to have got used to living in a Catholic country. The pikies weren't worth the troubles.
Yip it all leads down a murcky road that they don't want to go down.yossarian - Member
Dirty wars have dirty tactics. The reason this won't be properly investigated is because its not an isolated incident. This is how it's done.
don't want the real state methods exposed for all to see......This is why we do not live in a so called democracy
Hah.. I love it when people assume a democratic system is the same thing as fair, honest and morally upgright government. People use the word 'democracy' as a catch-all phrase for perfect government. Lolz.
true, I always remind them that hitler gained his power through democracy.People use the word 'democracy' as a catch-all phrase for perfect government. Lolz.
[i]We cannot as a nation just shrug and go shit happens live with it.[/i]
No, but we can say "we all know shit happened, we all know that both 'sides' were involved in appalling acts, now let's move on"
As has been said, the SA Truth and Reconcilation model was probably the one that should have been followed, but it's too late for that now.
Northern Ireland (and, indeed, Eire) is, for the first time in at least three generations, relatively peaceful. That has come about because parties on all sides have come out of entrenched positions. This is the only way forward, not a constant digging over of the past.
so accountability is not important anymore, govt and their agents do as they please, give it time and then declare it old hat not worth bothering with !!
find the flippant attitudes to state terrorism fairly abhorrent,but then again its to be expected from some quarters...
Its the Hypocritical bull that we are all supposed to accept as valid reasons for it that is worse.
Apparently, MI6 was instrumental in kidnap too.
look the bottom line is that when states stick their cocks into other states all kinds of nasty stuff happens. collusion, rendition, kidnap, extortion, assassination and cospiracy are the norm, not the exception.
Really dont have a problem with this, i like it that the government comes over all 'black ops' when it wants to....the Oirish shouldnt have got all uppity in the first place.
I love reading about the cloak and dagger stuff, damn near gives me wood and reminds me what a magnificent country this still is at times.
Oh and when callmedave appears on the box roundly condemning things he is guilty of the worst kind of cynicism. What he means is we are sorry it's been made public.
Perhaps we could get them to kidnap and render you - imagine how proud you would be, the excitement it would cause in your pants and perhaps the services could finish you off to round off the treat?
Why bite junkyard?
Why would they do that Junkyard?....i'm not an enemy of the state, i'm fiercely patriotic and a loyal subject.
The irish chappy made himself a target, big boys rules and all that.
Lets face it, the loyalists needed all the help they could get. It's always been plain that they were out-thought, let alone out-gunned by the Republicans. It's no wonder they needed the legally armed wing of the Orange Order to help them fight.
It's unusual that a loyalist terrorist talked of solicitors being "taboo" and that they often used Catholic solicitors themselves.
Loving Zulu's straw-men though. Usual comedy gold from our Bible-reading troll. 😆
Wonder if Jerry Adams and his mate martin will be holding any inquiries into previous terrorism how they are in government? Just wondering
Wonder on I reckon.
Fortunately sinn fein/IRA realised they were getting nowhere fast murdering innocent people. They had no choice really to give up the armed struggle and surrender as they realised it was pretty pointless. Nothing alters the fact though that the six counties are still part of the UK and that isn't going to change anytime soon.
My thoughts always go out though to the brave people who have done and continue to defend that part of the United Kingdom.
That s exactly what history will remember when explaining how we invaded the country, [planted the protestant population there] and [ignoring a few hundred years of oppression for brevity] ignored the all Ireland vote 1918 and , sent in the black and tans, partioned the country then bravely defended the state we created from the terrorists 😕
those who choose to ignore history are doomed to repeat it
Those who wish to get all jingoistic and nationalist are likely to ignore it completely and give a more fairy tale account of our brave boys.
Its a messy situation but simplistic breast beating is a little silly.
Andyruss- You can bet that if there was a truth and reconcilliation process a certain Mr Adams and a Mr Mcguiness would find some way to dodge telling the truth and how involved they were.
More comedy gold from bloodynora. 😆
The gift that keeps on, erm, giving.
Can't handle a different viewpoint deadlydarcy, no surprise really. A mick with two chips is quite amusing though 😆
when explaining how we invaded the country
Point of order - actually you'll find that we were [i]invited[/i] there to help Diarmait Mac Murchada reclaim his seat as King of Leinster, he asked for help from Henry II'nd - Funnily enough also with the support of a papal bull from the Catholic church...
All the way back to 1169, we've been trying to stop the buggers killing each other 😉
A view point is generally considered, not regurgitated...bloodynora - Member
Can't handle a different viewpoint deadlydarcy, no surprise really. A mick with two chips is quite amusing though
btw is casual racism allowed on the forum these days?
in 1169, not really all that strange.Funnily enough also with the support of a papal bull from the Catholic church...
A mick with two chips
😆
Now, in case you're struggling to understand, that's [i]at[/i] you not [i]with[/i] you. Anyway, seeing, as for once, you've hung around for the debate, which is uncharacteristic of you...let's be going on with:
sinn fein/IRA
A fan of the Reverend are we? Good man bloodynora! A better role model I couldn't find for you.
Can't handle a different viewpoint deadlydarcy
Of course I can. I'd love to debate with you all day...it's just that you never normally hang around for it. I dunno, it's like you have nothing intelligent to add apart from a few ill thought out phrases and some casual insults...I mean, that's your style isn't it? You almost sound like a bit of a loyalist or something...why don't you clarify that for us.
You always seem to conveniently ignore that there were two sides committing atrocities. Can you tell me why this is? Or do you realise it but struggle to bring yourself to write it down?
And let's just clear this up a wee bit...
A mick with two chips is quite amusing though
is pretty insulting and shows yourself up as what kind of a person you are rather than demeaning me. If it came from someone I respected on here, I'd be worried about it. But, y'know, as it's you...
this has descended into a slagfest-- but who has brought it down to that level-- the bulldog brigade , no political backbone- pure reactionary ideology bathed in the soup of royalism , the stench of hypocracy is nauseous, let me have some air before you shoot me ...
N.lrland has made great strides to move on from the troubles. The trouble withinquiries in ulster is that they would have to be on both sides. Mud slinging starts again then the killings. The Stw permanent apologist always fail to see this and want inquiry after inquiry blaming one side only ,normally the British government or army. Move on the majority of decent people who live there are trying to. Simples
The Stw permanent apologist
😆
The trouble withinquiries in ulster is that they would have to be on both sides.
How do you mean "both sides"? There wasn't an official republican armed police force or paramilitary regiment? There were terrorists on "both sides" and there was the RUC - an almost exclusively Protestant, mostly Unionist, very Orange and quite loyalist police force that encouraged and enabled a loyalist terrorist to knock off a solicitor, even though solicitors were generally no-go targets. An instrument of the state did this. The trouble with an inquiry is that it would drag up all the other collusions between the RUC and loyalist terrorists.
What inquiry into Adams and McGuinness do you want exactly? Jesus wept, even Paisley for all that is wrong with him managed to find it in his cold cold heart to shake hands. And all you can do to justify the lack of an inquiry (which I'm not too keen on either, but I suspect for different reasons to you) is bleat on about McGuinness, Adams et al "not having to answer..."
Did you really should read posts. Ulster is trying to move on. Atrocities were committed on both sides,is that to hard for you to understand. Bringing one side to justice because it suits your political believe is pointless. Sometimes our past hast to remain there for the good of the future. Gerry Adams always claimed the IRA were alegitimate army fighting a legitimate war ,so with that would they not be open to war crimes. O l forgot not in your world because there wasn't a women or child they killed who didn't deserve it right.
The above argument is yet more proof of why there will never, ever be peace in Northern Ireland.
Jeez, between yourself and bloodynora you're properly specialising in ridiculous insults and accusations.
So, erm, because Adams claimed they were a legitimate army, that opens them up to a similar level of scrutiny to a [i]police[/i] force? As part of the Good Friday Agreement, terrorists from [i]both[/i] sides were released. That is what moving on is about, not sweeping terrorist collusion by a police force under the carpet, as you'd like to do.
On another point, you're flinging around accusations to a stranger on a forum like:
O l forgot not in your world because there wasn't a women or child they killed who didn't deserve it right.
and then talking about "moving on"? Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound?
The above argument is yet more proof of why there will never, ever be peace in Northern Ireland.
Erm, Northern Ireland is comparatively [i]very[/i] peaceful these days.
Compared to what? Libya?
Mick comment out of order btw.
Compared to what? Libya?
Compared to the seventies, eighties and nineties, yes. Riots such as those over the last few weeks over flag flying wouldn't even have made the news some time ago.
DD
So, erm, because Adams claimed they were a legitimate army, that opens them up to a similar level of scrutiny to a police force?
Yes. Murder is murder.
Oh and they now hold ministerial positions.
Reconciliation demands that both sides to account, not just one.
In your argument you demean and devalue the people murdered by the IRA & PIRA which I doubt was your aim.
All parties were as bad as each other. The PIRA weren't the little terrorist group been crushed by the British government. They were a formidable force classifying themselves as an army with considerable resources care of their american fund raising. They would also run south of the border were eqaully corrupt forces would turn a blind eye to their activities in the north. Lets not mention their extensive collaberation with middle east terror groups which now draws a comparison with the Blair era.
Small minded people want their revenge either in the courts or on the streets at the expense of the general public. Have as many inquiries as you wish but it won't help the healing process out there. Instead it will just fan the flames and 20 years of progress will be flushed down the pan.
In your argument you demean and devalue the people murdered by the IRA & PIRA which I doubt was your aim.
If you could explain how?
eqaully corrupt forces would turn a blind eye to their activities in the north.
Equally? Really?!?
Put 'em away boys 😀
Finucane is dead, same as lots of people as a result of the NI "troubles". Dirtyness was done by both sides. Either one calling foul at the other is frankly ludicrous.
Let him and everyone else rest and get on with looking forward, not back.
Yes, equally. Even the US has been accused of leaking British Intelligence to PIRA
You may also wish to research the fact of the PIRA knee capping plenty of their kids because they were joy riding. Not because they stole the cars but because it brought the forces out on the streets to arrest the joyriders making harder for the PIRA to move around. Not quite the nice freedom fighters trying to unite Ireland.
Both sides had huge drugs trades financing their operations so neither side of the arguement were looking out for their own people.
In your argument you demean and devalue the people murdered by the IRA & PIRA which I doubt was your aim.
If you could explain how?
So the victims and their families of Republican violence don't deserve closure as well?
Did you bother to read my post further?
How to have a meaningful peace, reconciliation has to be all inclusive and transparent. Why would you want it any different?
The bottom line here is that Call me Dave will not be having any public inquiries into anything, ever again! No matter what happens! No matter who calls for it! Full stop!
He was bounced by public pressure into the leveson inquiry, and from the moment he announced it, the whole can of duplicitous worms spread out in all kinds of unforeseen directions, he and his friends had thought the public would never see. And then ultimately, conclusions were reached that his powerful friends find unpalatable, so he now has to go through the humiliating and politically damaging process of studiously ignoring its main points.
And you think he's going to ever announce another inquiry into a subject as potentially explosive, ever again? Dream on! He's not that stupid!
The RUC could have been executing people in the street in front of their kids, and we still wouldn't get a public inquiry. Not a chance!
So the victims and their families of Republican violence don't deserve closure as well?
While I assume that those left behind when someone is murdered by terrorists on either side probably never get "closure" in the same way that someone who has lost family due to natural or accidental death, the Good Friday Agreement went a long way towards starting the process of a peaceful endgame. Prisoners from both sides were released, power-sharing was properly put in place and cross-border initiatives were set up to include the Republic of Ireland in certain decisions.
How to have a meaningful peace, reconciliation has to be all inclusive and transparent.
I think what's happened so far has been as transparent as anyone could wish for. Yes, of course it could be better and there could be "better" peace instead of people rioting over a flag or being told where they can march, but things have come a long way.
Why would you want it any different?
I'm going to have to go for you misrepresenting my position here, not sure if intentional or unintentional. But don't worry, you're just joining the list with bloodynora, craigxxl and andyruss so you're probably in decent company from your point of view.
While I assume that those left behind when someone is murdered by terrorists on either side probably never get "closure" in the same way that someone who has lost family due to natural or accidental death, the Good Friday Agreement went a long way towards starting the process of a peaceful endgame. Prisoners from both sides were released, power-sharing was properly put in place and cross-border initiatives were set up to include the Republic of Ireland in certain decisions.
But this go far enough. IMHO. Hence the ongoing calls for public enquiries for different and legitimate reasons. The argument from HMG in this case is the floodgate argument which in itself is disturbing.
Peace has gained a valid platform at every level of society. That society is changing but there are polarised and entrenched views form both sides and extremists on both sides will seek to put their view across. It seems that neither side in this argument has the support of the wider community.
No misrepresentation intended. It was a question. My point was how can you put forward for another public enquiry (justified or not) without calling for a more inclusive forum for individuals to ask for their rights to be excessed.
The SA Truth and reconciliation commission has had it critics, replacing justice with the aim of reconciliation.
I wish i had the answer, but much better minds than mine haven't resolved this issue and there seems no justice for the unpunished. However the peace has held, the polarising of communities is diminishing and people are not being murdered simply because of their religion.
The Stw permanent apologist always fail to see this
What we fail to see that terrorists did bad things?
It would be impossible to fail to see this
Rather I feel some want to just sweep under the carpet the fact that a legitimate and democratically elected govt did bad things whilst denying they did bad things- they think it was ok and they deserved it which makes us no worse than terrorists. I am more concerned about this sort of apologist and I have seen no one defend the IRA or its tactics but there is plenty of people defending "our side" whilst accepting they wre no better or worse than the terrorists . It is inevitable that legitimate govts will be held up to standards higher than terrorists as it is obvious terrorists will do bad things to create terror. As yet we have not been honest about our collusion
Gerry Adams always claimed the IRA were a legitimate army fighting a legitimate war ,so with that would they not be open to war crimes.
I think we would have had to recognise we were at war and they were legitimate for us to do this. Adams may claim it but he is/was not right.
Stop being silly please it is an emmotive issue without this sort of stuff. You know that is BS and no one thinks like that so why bother saying it as it makes you look daft and entrenched.O l forgot not in your world because there wasn't a women or child they killed who didn't deserve it right.
All parties were as bad as each other
True but I am pretty sure we presented oursleves as better than the terrorists though - the terrorists hardly denied what they did - see point above about why a govt has to be held to a higher standards
Not quite the nice freedom fighters trying to unite Ireland.
You defeated an argument no one has presented well done 😕