[Closed] State of our roadside verges!!!!

I cover hundreds of miles a week, mostly around the south-west peninsula of England, but also up into the midlands, London, South Wales, etc, and I never fail to be amazed at the trash that litters the roads. One thing in particular, the outer tread of tyres - usually lying in the central reservation of motorways and dual-carriageways, but in other places as well, then there’s the hi-viz vests, dead pheasants and badgers, lumps of wood, eight-foot alloy ladders in the outside lane, empty bottles...

Aye, just reading the recycling thread re the subject of returning plastic bottles!!!! Could make a fortune from Gretna to Stranraer........

I guess the increase in HGV traffic, the increase in HGV weight limits = more tyre debris?? However you would expect tyre technology to catch/keep up??? We have the “Euro-route” from Stranraer to Gretna so lots of tyre debris and lorries falling off the road etc.....

https://www.dgwgo.com/dumfries-galloway-news/2018-action-not-words-a75/

Pheasants, Badgers, Deer, you name it are normal road kill in D&G....

whats it like around your part of the country???

Just as dreadful.

Is there an answer???

CCTV and automatic fines. It's expensive but can be used at hotspots.

Heard on the news a £150 fine is to be introduced(proposed?)

Have you ever witnessed someone chucking their KFC/Costa/BigMac/Subway/bottle full of urine etc waste out of their car/truck/van window????

Yes, it’s disgusting.

I drive in a lot in Europe and you don’t see it at all, along with no middle lane hoggers.

You come back into Dover for the next 300 miles home there’s crap everywhere.

The EU is well rid of us.

As an auld guy it’s easy for me to blame the “youth” of today but so many people of my generation have such bad attitude towards society, Law, authority etc I do wonder if it is “us” to “blame”

It's not the youth, it's people of all ages and backgrounds. A selection of knobs from across all society. I've seen it from lorry drivers, business people, mothers and tourists dropping litter from their car when at traffic lights, roundabouts and junctions. I've even seen litter dropped from the passanger side of a police van. Anywhere you have stationary or slow moving traffic on a regular basis will be covered in litter. There was a timelapse from Highways England a while ago showing them de-littering a junction then it quickly becoming littered again in the space of a few days. It's constant. It's so bad that they can't even cut back the vegetation on the verges before doing a litter pick first due to the bottles of pish, soiled nappies and god knows what else that becomes a biohazard when hit with a brush cutter or flail. It's not even unique to our roadside verges, it's flippin' everywhere.

The amount of litter on my commute is disgusting. I ride between Northampton and Milton Keynes which is a shade over 20 miles. If there was a 5p deposit on drinks cans there would be enough scrap to pay for a decent new bike. The amount of empty beer and cider cans is staggering.

Is there an answer???

Why yes! Mass extinction.

I get depressed by this as I see rubbish pretty much everywhere around the roads of the UK. I now find myself scouring the roads by sight as I drive along and am continually made sad.

I suspect it reflect society's attitudes to responsibility, each other and - to some extent - the concept of authority. I.e. the problem is deeper.

It's time for some kind of civic action, be it a media campaign or government action.

I saw rubbish being thrown out of the window of a passing car recently and pulled alongside on my bike to speak to the culprit. As I began to let them know of my disgust, the door opened and I was surprised to see a circa 8-year-old girl emerge - presumably being dropped off by a parent. I think they were as shocked as me...

Really bad around Brighton. I find it so depressing. Fines and a TV campaign are required.

Its everywhere.

i was at a tiny, book able Forestry Comission wild campsite in Trossachs National Park yesterday. We picked up four bin bags of litter in ten minutes or so. This having been there in November and having done similar.

The UK just seems in general to be disconnected from the natural world, from personal responsibility and from citizenship. Seems greed, DILIGAF and active selfishness is the order of the day for many folk.

Yep, you're right there myti...we went down to the Cuckmere Haven on Saturday and the roadsides on the A roads were just incredible for the amount of litter 🙁

I think as well as all the cockwombles who throw litter, the main culprit is recycling boxes in our area. People put their waste out the night before collection is due and the wind then blows the contents out of the boxes and all over the road. Putting a lid on the box seems to be beyond the capability of most people.

I'd happily ban takeaway completely.

Education. Tackling excessive packaging. Stop seeing everything in terms of ££. Cleaning the verges isn’t economic - find a way to make it so. On a side note - where does worn tyre rubber go? It must wear, then blow/get washed away. Does it biodegrade?

Maybe they should make it compulsory to print your name and car reg on drive through takeaway packaging.  Fine doubles everytime for repeat offenders..

Or get caught twice and you get 100 hrs community service of roadside litter picking.

Maybe they should make it compulsory to print your name and car reg on drive through takeaway packaging.

^^ this

Maybe they should make it compulsory to print your name and car reg on drive through takeaway packaging.  Fine doubles everytime for repeat offenders..

What a great idea.

Aye, cos all the wee kebab shops all over the land will gladly print boxes, it's not all McDs and KFC you know, I see more of those white polyfoam boxes than anything else.

Just make it sit in only, or home delivery in refundable containers, sounds ridiculous, I know, but radical change needs to happen, education doesn't work.

And ban ****in bottled water while we're at it.

Was back in the UK in February for the first time in since moving to France .

No bike so went for a 20km run .

Area between Dartford and swanley in north kent . It was disgusting , rubbish everywhere .

I guess I was used to it when living in the uk , but that was shocking .

Have you ever witnessed someone chucking their KFC/Costa/BigMac/Subway/bottle full of urine etc waste out of their car/truck/van window????

yep the driver of a council mini road cleaner hurled an empty bottle into the hedge as I was walking past. I handed it back to him the look on his face was priceless.

Going to get worse in Norfolk.

Yesterday, 'Pay to tip' at recycling centres started (not April fools joke either).

Pay to take DIY waste, glass, wood etc.

The title 'Fly Tipping County of the Year' awaits!!

I would like to see community payback teams clearing litter. They use them in my local park so why not extend it around town and beyond?

To counter it doesn't seem to be any worse than its always been around here. Any litter is too much litter though. What I find unacceptable is the excessive use of the question mark 😉

currently in singapore, the place is spotless, people are polite. Must be a cultural thing not looking forward to my return to UK tomorrow.😕

we're a filthy country for being so "developed", I really noticed it after living in Australia for a few months and coming back to the UK, litter everywhere here, people not even bothering to walk to layby bins. Brits expect everything do be done for them by someone else, including picking up their own waste. A kiwi mate says the UK is filthy compared to NZ too though I've not been there.

We are a nation of slobs.

Just get used to it and join in in not GAS..

Stoner Jrs and I every few months do a litter pick along the verges of the main road across the common near us.

We were out a week ago and filled two bin bags in 1km.

I mumbled to myself that it doesnt matter how "Pure" your water, or "Organic" your crisps, or "Healthy" your Kronenbourg 1664, once it's packed up in a plastic wrapping it's an eyesore and hazard to livestock when you chuck it out the car window.

I drove past the next day and said to myself: "Well that ******** Stella can wasn't there yesterday"

I don’t understand why people can’t stand to have litter in their car until they find a bin but are happy for their environment to be strewn with it forever. I was out on my bike yesterday and on one particular road the hedges and verges were full of cans, plastic bottles, kfc and Macdonalds rubbish. It’s been there a very long time judging by how weather worn the cans were.

What do you expect?

Massive cuts to public services, so no one to clear them and up and no one to enforce the rules.

The stuff I see daily with regards to people and their driving makes me think that, basically, anything ‘lesser’ than rape or murder means you will pretty much get away with it.

More scumbags, less coppers, inevitable results.

The title ‘Fly Tipping County of the Year’ awaits!!

Or maybe the land-fill will fill more quickly as everyone breaks it up and puts its in the putrescibles wheelie bin. Friend (yes really) did that with a concrete corrugated garage roof. It took 4 months to avoid overloading the bin and triggering the sensor on the wagon but it all went to landfill.

Well done Ipswich BC and Suffolk CC for introducing a charge for hardcore tipping at the waste centres.

What do I expect? There shouldn’t have to be people paid to clear up litter. I expect folk not hurl litter out of cars in the first place. Surely not too much to ask?

What do I expect? There shouldn’t have to be people paid to clear up litter. I expect folk not hurl litter out of cars in the first place. Surely not too much to ask?

This

Last year there was a spiritual/earth/hippy festival up the road from me called Finding the Light or something. There was a poster for it near my place banging on about saving the planet, taking responsibility for our actions and considering others. Good stuff, common sense, very commendable etc.

You should have seen the amount of litter all over the field after it finished! Even now there's still some stuck in the hedges. And none of the organisers bothered collecting any of those oil-product-plastic-laminated posters held up with dolphin garroting cable ties..

If a bunch of sanctimonious tree huggers don't care about littering then it probably doesn't even cross the minds of most people.

Totally agree with everything here. It's pretty terrible around where I live (NW Durham) and even worse in the lanes around Gateshead. Durham County Council has an online reporting system and I end up reporting entire lengths of roads. I get automated emails back saying they have "added it to our programme of works" but how long that list is and how long it takes for one at the bottom to reach the top Lord only knows. I suspect the council is simply spending nothing on the problem for a year or two to make savings.

Solutions:

Deposit schemes

Ban drive-through restaurants

Microchip everything from coffee cups to car tyres. If we can put them in our pets it can't be too difficult to do this.

Education

Enforcement

Kill them.

Do away with all packaging. Food and beverages carried by hand. Yes, some will moan about first degree burns from having a hot vanilla latte poured directly in to their cupped hands, but those types will always find something to whine about.

Came back from the states at the beginning of March and the comparison is staggering. For a nation who are apparently so "proud" of ourselves, we sure shame ourselves by not looking after the landscape. Disgustingly filthy, selfish assholes. In Florida they have signs along the freeways saying that there are fines for littering of $75 or something. We need that here, even though most people know they shouldn't litter, I rarely see any notices which may dissuade idiots from doing so.

Deposit schemes will go a long way to preventing and clearing up much of it - bottles and cans will become valuable. But there is so much else - wrappers, food containers, kids toys I've seen a lot of.

It's horrendous round this way in Midlothian. My commute saddens me - recently, this time of year, no overgrowth and it's all too apparent.

I used to organise litter picks but it's gone beyond that now. The best I can think of is the fast food restaurants offering free food for bags full of returned rubbish.

We need that here, even though most people know they shouldn’t litter, I rarely see any notices which may dissuade idiots from doing so.

Plenty of signs up in laybys - just that there's no CCTV, no-one there to enforce it and therefore no chance of being caught. People park up for whatever reason - check the map / their phone, let the kid go to the loo, have a quick sandwich or even park there to go for a walk (cos it's free unlike the local village car park) and when they come back the litter goes out the car window and they drive off.

I'm unsure with cyclist litter (gel and bar wrappers mostly) how much is intentional and how much is accidental from putting a wrapper into the pocket and as you pull your hand out the wrapper comes with it. Or reaching in later to get a second bar and the first wrapper comes flying out.

But yes, as soon as you actually start looking for it, it's everywhere in the verges. Just disgusting.

I saw a teenager/early 20s guy throw a metal bottle lid off onto the verge as he and his friends walked along.

"Oi, don't do that."

"Well I don't see any bins, do you?"

"Just put it in your pocket you ****ing moron."

- threats of violence

- carry on riding making "yappy mouth" sign with my hand

The real answer is probably death squads.

I approached the local council about the amount of litter in the local verges & hedges. They simply don't have the manpower or funding to keep them clean all the time. They offered me a set of grabbers and half a dozen big poly bags. So one morning every six months or so I go litter picking about quarter of a mile either side of my house. The council come out the same day and remove the full bags.

Funny thing's happened though. Now the verges are clean they don't get littered with anything like the frequency they did before. There the odd bit of rubbish but a lot less than there used to be.

#Winner

Plenty of it round here in rural Devon ☹️ definitely seems to have got worse recently.

What really annoys me is less the rubbish by the roadside, but when you find crap that someone has obviously carried into the middle of nowhere and then dropped.

I was in the middle of some local common land on Saturday, probably 1km from the carpark, only accessible on foot or by bike, and found 3 Costa cups and lids scattered in the middle of the path.

So some ****s have walked there sipping their crap coffee and just dropped the cups when done. ****s.

*Edit* I picked the cups/lids up btw and took them home. Endura short pockets are just the right size 😉

I’d happily ban takeaway completely.

I'd happily ban McDonalds & Costa that's for sure. Round here those two are the stuff I see the most of, & there's neither outlets within 10 miles!

I agree with the reg printing idea as well, fair enough your local kebab shop might struggle but they aren't the big suppliers, It's McD's, KFC, Costa etc & their crap is what I see the most of.

If you chuck shite out of your motor your'e just a scruffy tramp. Fact.

Sod £150 … it's time for proper high fines, to fund some real enforcerment. I'm talking life changing amounts of money, as a real deterrent.

(and points on driving licence for drivers that allow rubbish to be thrown from cars)

(as for fly tippers … not sure any financial penalty is enough … loss of driving licence and/or community service)

to combat this there will come a day when we are all chipped and everything we buy will be tagged with our chip id so the person responsible for litter can be traced. The morons/scum of this world are going to make life intolerable for the rest.

Have you ever witnessed someone chucking their KFC/Costa/BigMac/Subway/bottle full of urine etc waste out of their car/truck/van window????

Yes, some time ago I was riding along a lane somewhere south of Bath, and a car passed me, the passenger lobbed a half-full can of coke out of his window, I think intended for me. I picked it up a took off after them, fortunately they got held up by a tractor. The passenger still had his window open, so I said, “ here, I think you dropped this” and lobbed it back, into his lap. Did I mention it was still around half-full? Anyway, as I rode off I heard a yelp and a lot of cussing, but I turned off down a very narrow lane and left them to sort out the sticky mess I’d made... 🤣

Mountain bikers are just as bad - I went to a trail centre in Wales and was shocked at the numbers of plastic drink bottles thrown by the trail for the first couple of miles riding away from the trail centre. There were no footpaths so it can only have been people on bikes.

40mile road ride in Denmark today, 1 plastic bag in verge was the only rubbish I saw all ride. And only one pothole. 10meters on the average UK road will trump both of those.

I don't know if its because of the wet winter but the verges are also more churned up by vehicles going on them than I've ever seen before.

It's so bad round here also, what has caused this spike? more people with access to cars now than there ever was before? A me me me attitude that has spiralled within the last 10 years?  Council cuts ,not using the resources for refuse collection?

There is a few that have took it upon themselves to tackle the problem. A local community gathers a stretch of road every month or bi monthly and gathers heaps of black bags full of rubbish. There is 2 or 3 local folk that have a whip around and gather up a bag or 2. Without these few people alone i can't image the state.

Mountain bikers are just as bad – I went to a trail centre in Wales and was shocked at the numbers of plastic drink bottles thrown by the trail for the first couple of miles riding away from the trail centre. There were no footpaths so it can only have been people on bikes.

Hear hear

Can we not have all the community payback criminals clearing this all up?

Can we not have all the community payback criminals clearing this all up?

It will affect their safe space and beliefs. That's what's wrong with things. Years back this would have been the solution , but we are slowly devolving  ourselves.

it can only have been people on bikes

People on bikes and people in cars can be the same people… how did those people on bikes get to that trail centre? The problem here is people… not cars, or bikes, or whatever… but enforcement of behaviour in cars, and use of penalties available for other behaviour in cars, is a practicall step that can be made.

So, I'm currently in the process of designing and engineering a drone system that will perform a long distance analysis of materials which are deemed to be litter and collect it. This analysis system involves a highly complex algorithm but it will determine the merchandiser of the litter by analysing the remaining contents, the culprit by analysing DNA samples and, the material that it's made from. Most rubbish isn't around a person so, to prevent it from concluding that a cup that is being carried by a person is a piece of litter, it will perform thermal detection analysis to ensure there isn't a human using it. It'll be a very powerful and intelligent drone that can perform sample analysis in micro-milli-milli seconds (which is like really quick) and this drone will scope out an area and assess how much litter there is and how many Litter Picker Drones (members of the DCS, that's the Detritus Collection Squadron) should be assigned to that particular area.

Then, three teams of Litter Drones will be dispatched one team formed of a number of large Mega Bucket Drones, each with a great big bucket mounted above the propellers, they will land in the optimum location amongst the rubbish. Then, team two will consist of a larger number of drones that'll be fast and have intermediate sized buckets mounted above their propellers. Then, the third team will be a very large number of Litter Picker Drones that are highly manoeuvrable, each with about eight robot arms and claws that'll collect the litter and place it on the intermediate Bucket Drones. These intermediate drones will then speed off to one of the Mega Bucket Drones to dispatch their load.

There will be this conveyor system of drones to make light and easy work of all the litter in our great country. I'll also invent the Taser Drone. It will zap anyone that litters with 1,000 volts to act as a deterrent.

So yeah, I'm a little busy at the moment.

Just back from 3 days in Skye, verges looked much more litter-free, cleaner and tidier - in a lot of cases, the roadside was a cliff to the sea, the drive back down the road did seem to be 'ok' until around Inverness and the A9 has a few spots, getting into central Scotland and it is just soul destroying...ignorant idiots.

A very sad state of affairs.

There are signs around here (Redditch) threatening fines but, as pointed out above, no-one to enforce it. Lots of litter especially cans.

Litter in hedges is more visible at this time of year - snow cover has gone but foliage hasn't grown just yet.

I am a teacher so I am not going to "blame schools" but primary schools are under such pressure to achieve academically these days that seems to be less time to teach basic manners, table manners, the green cross code, keep Britain tidy etc.

I suppose there are other issues which are considered more important - mental health, self harm, sexting etc.

Coming back from Fort William last year in my work van, I had to stop at some temporary traffic lights. There was a newish red T5 camper 2 vehicles ahead of me , as the lights changed to green & the vehicles started moving the T5 passenger chucks a full carrier bag of rubbish out the window. Unbelievable as we were just about a mile past a layby with a bin. As I overtook them on the straight at Laggan I got a look at the occupants, a man driving & woman in the passenger seat approx  50 ish years of age. I'm guessing they had no idea why they got the finger but it was a better option than the pit manouvere.

Yes I know I'm a bellend also.

Our Green and Pleasant Land 🙁

[i]bigblackheinoustoe wrote:[/i]

So yeah, I’m a little busy at the moment.

Would explain why you're a day late 😉

Its not so bad where I am, but on the other hand the roads are so bad it's hard to tell where the road ends and the verge starts

Homo Sapiens- just smart enough to cause trouble.

We're a virus with shoes.

I used to cut grass for the council but I also used to go out with the litter picking squad.

The bulk of litter we found around roadsides was from the big takeaway providers and also cans and plastic bottles.

However by far the worst places were anywhere around a high school, you could do the area round a school and it would be just the same again the next day.

It was a soul destroying job.

Horrific isn't it. Peoples should be ashamed. I ride past this crap every week.

I don't do anything though which is just as shameful, one day I'll grow a pair and either challenge people littering or clean it up myself.

We all know that's horseshit though. What have I become.

However by far the worst places were anywhere around a high school, you could do the area round a school and it would be just the same again the next day

I find it amazing that I can visit so many schools that fly a green Eco flag....and are surrounded by litter until the day they are assessed. Education failure right there.

Having spent the last few years holed up in rural Broadland Norfolk, where roadside litter is noticeable, we drove up to the Lake District this last weekend and have been truly shocked at the sheer amount of rubbish/ litter that lined all of  the roads on our way up here.

I find it very sad that the relevant authorities are not taking steps to both educate and collect the crap that's discarded. With continual reductions in budgets, clearly the environment and looking after it is quite low down on the lists of priorities.

Personally, I'd be using community service, prisons and JSA claimants to perform the clearing up, along with those spotted doing the littering. But, I suppose that might be infringing upon their multi-various human rights. Roll eyes emoji.

Between my house in Guaso and Ainsa, which is about 5.5km away by road, I see there is one beer can by the side of the road. It's been there for a week! I keep seeing it and keep meaning to pick it up. Today I will do so.

Where we are in Sapin I have never ever seen crews cleaning the verges and I have never seen people throwing stuff from their cars. It just seems to be clean and stay clean. I appreciate that other parts of Spain will be different.

Our Green and Pleasant Land

Funnily enough, when I've been touring in the Highlands and Islands looking at the number of bottles and cans in roadside verges, this is the phrase that goes ironically through my mind.

We counted just the red bull cans on about a 2/3 mile stretch in Uist once - didn't take long to hit 100. Our lunchtime analysis concluded it must be locals who buy a can every morning, seemingly have no respect for the beauty of where they live and out it goes.

Boils my piss. That's right, I said it.

Because of the pace we travel at, our close proximity to nature and our surroundings cyclists will always have a better feeling of how severe the problem is than anyone who speeds by in a motor vehicle. We are perfectly placed to stop and take a couple of minutes rest to do our part.

It's one thing we can do that has a tangible benefit to the environment. I routinely take pictures and then log a flytipping incident on the Fixmystreet app. It uses geolocation so gives the council a good idea of where the incident's located.

I don't really care if I'm flooding the council with extra work. The point is these incidents are being logged within a database and eventually the councils and government can draw an analysis of the problem and assess exactly how much this problem actually costs everyone. They can see particular problem areas and then target these areas. I've found my local council have been responsive to the incidents I have logged. I do take a good photo though and always with GPS turned on. The photo will show how much rubbish there is so they know what resources have to be allocated to the job.

One beer can wouldn't get logged. That's something I could pick up and put in a bin myself. A verge strewn with rubbish would be logged, especially flytipping incidents.

In short, help by taking a good photo to show the extent, get an accurate location and use the fixmystreet app.

Litter on the verges is evidence of how a significant number (52%) of people in this country are brain dead.

It's always really noticeable on my commute - in the summer the bushes and grass along the verges are long and hide it.. come the winter SHITE everywhere. Lines the whole road. Doesn't surprise me though cos people are scum.

Can we not have all the community payback criminals clearing this all up?

Council’s do use them for that, but don’t be thinking this is a free source of labour.  Whilst the individuals will not be paid the supervising council staff are.  As we all know drivers aren’t all as conscientious as we’d like and some of the stuff that is dumped is nasty so there are genuine safety issues to deal with too.

Plenty of signs up in laybys – just that there’s no CCTV

Interestingly the uptake of dash cams potentially changes that?

Sod £150 … it’s time for proper high fines, to fund some real enforcerment. I’m talking life changing amounts of money, as a real deterrent.

150 is the (proposed) fixed penalty which avoids going to court.  If you put the fine up you will increase the number of people who can’t pay within 28days or who believe it’s worth arguing to avoid the fine.  If the fine is truly life changing, you’ll be funding legal aid for people and then paying for prosecution and court services to handle a trial, tying up the witnesses in court rather than out on the street enforcing, and ultimately if convicted the offender may not be able to pay so gets to pay over a prolonged period or in the worst cases gets a community payback order or even custodial sentence which costs the country more!  The economics of setting fixed penalties is far from trivial.

you are probably right that points on license would be a greater deterrent.  Interestingly magistrates already have the power to disqualify drivers who use a vehicle to enable any offence so fly tippers could quite easily be disqualified although it’s unlikely to be top of mind.

Travelled through mid Wales to Liverpool a month ago. Verges were ok until you got towards Wrexham, just so difficult to understand the selfish mentality of some people.

What do I expect? There shouldn’t have to be people paid to clear up litter. I expect folk not hurl litter out of cars in the first place. Surely not too much to ask?

There's 'expect' and 'expect' though, isn't there?

Nelson 'expected' every Englishman to do his duty - didn't actually mean that given half the chance some wouldn't try to park their boat behind the nearest island and hope no one noticed.

Have you ever met the 'great' british public? There are an awful lot of total morons out there, you know.

A sizeable minority (or maybe even a narrow majority) of people think that the only reason they shouldn't do bad things is because "they might get caught". Not that their actions are just plain wrong. Take away the ability to monitor and discipline these perma-toddlers and soon the litter starts piling up.

My 'expectation' is based on my utter contempt for a large portion of our populace 🙂

Don’t get me started! Complained to the council this morning. Stumbled across two blokes in a van dumping the remnants of some cannabis plants and the pots they grew the stuff in last night. They sped off before I realised what they were doing. Dumped remains of cannabis set ups is quite common in South Yorkshire it seems.

 so many people of my generation have such bad attitude towards society, Law, authority etc I do wonder if it is “us” to “blame”

Ironically (with a partial exception of 'society') it's not respect for the law/authority that makes me so vehemently anti-litter but a real regard for the environment as a whole, and my part in it.  You may have hit the nail on the head though.  If people only regard litter as a legal/authority issue then I could see how chucking shit out of their car (with a quick mirror-check for roaming rozzers) is the same thing in their mind as sticking it to the 'do-gooders' by having a crafty smoke on the bus because the driver/authority figure has a blind-spot.   Anything's better than being a 'do-gooder' innit?  I think the contemporary term is 'virtue-signaller'.  Seems to me to be psychological projection on the grand scale and a detachment from the environment/core issues.   They file it under  'victimless crime'?

*edit - reading back, I agree with dannyh, who stated basically the same thing.