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A lot of workplaces now just have a basket of sanitary towels / tampons in the women’s toilets. That means they are in the most useful place, and if someone is feeling too short of cash to be able to afford their own, then it’s less obvious than having to go to a box in the office each time.
Safety pins and sewing kit, maybe. Paracetamol / ibuprofen I’d be less sure about. I’ve worked with supposedly intelligent people who had no idea that Lemsip had paracetamol in, so they were alternating the two every couple of hours.
Some sort of charging station would probably be handy - but what happens when 2 people both want to charge their iPhones at the same time?
The liability is that by supplying drugs especially if you are the first aider you are professing to have knowledge above that of the lay person without actually having that knowledge. “You have pain, here take this pill it will help”
Read what I wrote again where I said just this.
Having the drugs available for people to request themselves is ok and always has been.
What am I missing please?
covid test kits
Sandwich
I think your basic point is fine up untill the employer provides the pills. So getting some of a co worker is fine. From your employer not ok.
Maybe I’m just in a bad mood today – but I’d find this incredibly patronizing/infantilizing. “shat your pants at work again? Poor you! Come and see Janet who’ll give you a wet wipe and a change of undies”
To be fair, I once celebrated a successful month end in an otherwise unsuccessful Recruitment Consultant career by hitting the Guinness hard. I sharted at work the next day and had to go out to buy wet wipes and pants.
The liability is that by supplying drugs especially if you are the first aider you are professing to have knowledge above that of the lay person without actually having that knowledge. “You have pain, here take this pill it will help”
But that's precisely what this is not. Its not a first aid kit or first aider providing something in response to a symptom, its an office full of adults saying "there's a bunch of stuff over there which they sell in the co-op round the corner but to save you popping out to the shop we've made it available for your convenience". So if you have pain and think, I wonder if I can get some over-the-counter analgesics you can make your own decision; if you need someone else to tell you what to take you probably need to go home!
This is basic negligence stuff.
You can keep saying its a liability issue and basic negligence stuff but a quick google will tell you that first aid at work trainers seem to be "quoting" the HSE as saying words to the effect of no drugs except aspirin in the first aid kit but they recognise that having a way to access household medications in the workplace may be useful, make sure they are in their original packaging and the general public don't have access. And nobody has cited any case of a "friend" being liable for dishing out pills from their personal supply never mind making the box, instructions etc clear for all to access.
Negligence requires a duty of care, a breach of that duty, damage caused by the breach, foreseeability of the damage. Employers have a duty of care to their employees, but beyond that, I think you are into hypothetical whataboutery. I think if there's forseeability that a colleague may dispense their own medication (there is - anyone who's ever worked in an office will have seen that happen) in lieu of any company provision then providing a proper solution - properly packed OTC drugs on a self service basis, is actually a risk reduction.
No workplace i have ever been in would supply drugs because we understand the law of negligence and of supply of drugs
But your workplaces have all been "clinical" type settings where (1) Having self-sevice medication would be a confusing issue; (2) there were loads of drugs and professionals around to tap in to - or are you saying when you were working on the ward and someone had a headache nobody ever got any drugs from a colleague? I find that hard to believe, especially since "nipping off to the shop" is not really encouraged when you are supposed to care for patients. FWIW I don't actually think clinicians do understand the law of negligence very well - you might know the rules about drug supply but I'll hazzard a guess that other than the Pharmacists in your institution very few have ever read the Medicine's Act or know the rules about GSL drugs because it is not part of your job (without looking it up, can you tell me if the law says the 2x16 rule is law or guidance? does it say that 2x 16 paracetemol and 1x 16 ibuprofen is against the rules etc?).
The reason i find the whole concept patronising is its someone who does not know me has made an assessment of my needs
No it's someone who doesn't know you making a judgment on the sort of things that crop up in office environments that cause inconvenience, embarrassment, hassle and providing some things that might be useful. The original questionner rather than presuming their previous needs are others has done a sensible thing and asked a wider audience. Now, if in 6 weeks time someone in his office says, you know it would be really helpful if we had "shoelaces" in there I'm sure it can be added - this isn't the NHS where once a rule has been created it must stay like that forever.
without any idea what they are and has spent money in stuff that is at best useless to me.
You get to be smug then about how organised you are and never need such things... right up until the moment you burst your trousers and need a needle and thread, or have a puncture on your bike and discover you didn't pack your puncture repair kit etc.
Its all about being able to say what a great employer you are not about the staff at all
Some people will see it like that. Some will see it as keeping people at their desks rather than wandering off looking for stuff. Probably if you are a "newbie" in a strange office, particularly if you are relatively young and not used to just solving some of the world's problems this is a good thing - it means you don't need to go grovelling to the office matriarch to get help.
someone who does not know me has made an assessment of my needs without any idea what they are and has spent money in stuff that is at best useless to me
Do you get this upity about wheelchair ramps?
Not all nice things have to be of benefit to everyone.
I work in an office that doesn't even provide tea, coffee and biscuits. So I think it's great if other employers manage to care slightly more about not being the bare minimum 🤣
Right or wrong, the notion that it's perfectly fine to give a colleague a couple of paracetamol unless you've been first aid trained in which case it's forbidden beggars any sort of common sense.
I think there's a lot of confusion about things like paracetamol at work. You can have them in the office and you can even make some-one responsible for them (Its best practice if you do that to note the dose and time in the accident book) It's not best practice to have medicines or tablets in the FAK. The HSE are completely fine with employers making them available in vending machines or handed out by the responsible person as long as public can't get at them, and there' measures in place to prevent overdoses.
“Hey! Everyone. There’s some welfare boxes in the toilets, staff room and other convenient areas for people to use as is, we’ve put various things in that people may need.”
TJ “How patronising to offer little things that people may need without asking every individual.”
A couple of cans of Super Tennant's for those days when the hipster coffee just isn't enough to get you through the day.
covid test kits
In the later days of the pandemic (June 2022) we actually did this.
The problem was that as the tests were hidden away in the production secretary's drawer, no one took one because ...... reasons.
Cue an outbreak of COVID and 8 of us get sent home, production almost has to shut down. Putting the tests on the table with food, drinks, etc meant we all got to take one whenever we had the slightest cough and we avoided any more shutdowns.
All these things mentioned
And some more money
How about some proper soft loo roll for those wasted hours on singletrack.
Or if no phone signal a selection of Calvin and Hobbes
I thought tj's last post was suggesting putting sandwiches in the box.
I thought it had merit.
Its not trolling its a different outlook. Couple of folk understand it. Most of you are willfully distorting what i have said ti justify your own position. Disagree with me fine. Distort what i am saying to slag me off is odd but par for the course.
Think on the actual meaning of patronising.
As for the negligence/ liability issue. This is basic and simple stuff covered in the foundation lectores for the honours couse in law and ethics I have done.
Yeah TJ I wasn’t referring to you.
Ah. Apologies. Early morning here after a late night😜
LSD and crisps
Along with ayahuasca, DMT, peyote, and magic mushrooms, you know, for OPTIONS.
Surprised no one on here has said a covid test
covid test kits
why? I work for the NHS and even we aren't testing for Covid, got covid symptoms and feel too ill to come to work don't come, got symptoms but feel well enough to work? then we're expected to turn up. I don't agree with it but I dunnae make the rules.
Six pack of beers and a bottle of malt. Wont help with any problems but it'll be fun till it runs out
Ah. Apologies. Early morning here after a late night
Do you need any paracetamol?
Clean Star Wars T shirt
Chopsticks
How to post pictures on stw guide sheet
A few gms of coke
Chubba chups
I think your basic point is fine up untill the employer provides the pills. So getting some of a co worker is fine. From your employer not ok.
What is the difference between picking up a free packet in the office Vs buying from the corner shop then?
(Genuine question)
Unless they are hiring a disprortionate number of recent school leavers/graduates that might have trouble managing their own basic needs/personal administration, feels more like something that somebody wants to do, rather than something useful.
We hire incredibly highly educated and well paid IT professionals. But it’s amazing how many of them can’t piss in the bowl and/or wash their hands afterwards.
I’d have a card in the box with “**** this, I’m having the afternoon off” which gets you the afternoon off plus some guidance on stress and depression management.
Matt.
Liability. If your employer provides medicines they carry the liability if something goes wrong as the person taking the pills can cliam that the employer dispensing them was in effect saying that thise pills were ok to take
Its the aspect of negligence around the standards by which actions are judged. In a first aid situation i as a nurse would be held to a higher standard than a lay person as i am a nurse. Drac to a higher standard again as he should have greater skills.
Employer providing meds will be held to a higher standard than a lay person as they are professing to have that greater knowledge simply by dispensing them even tho its highky unlikely they have that knowledge
Abit like someone in your world who does not have winter mountain leader qualifications but as an employee of an outdoor centre takes a group out in winter. They are acting beyond the skills they have butcas an employee of the cetre would be judged as if they did have
I dont think thats a very clear explanation but hopefully you get the gist
the notion that it’s perfectly fine to give a colleague a couple of paracetamol unless you’ve been first aid trained in which case it’s forbidden beggars any sort of common sense.
OK, agreed. Had anyone ever heard that notion in the real world?
Liability. If your employer provides medicines they carry the liability if something goes wrong as the person taking the pills can cliam that the employer dispensing them was in effect saying that thise pills were ok to take
So does the shop have the same liability? Anything they sell is thier liability?
And yet an employer can require you to undertake a simple task such as driving a car - which comes with lethal liability - and that's OK?
Again, I'm being genuine and trying to figure out the real law and case law around this.
Yes. Very basic negligence law. A trained first aider is professing to have knowledge above that of a layperson .
" fred said take paracetamol and he is the first aider so it must be ok"
This is really very basic stuff. Covered in the early lectures i had on medical law and ethics
As for paracetamol etc, I'd happily share what I have with colleagues. They're mine, not the companies.
Matt. Think about liability in your world.
The first aider dishing up pills is like someone with only a basic outdoors qualification but emplyed by an outdoir centre taking folk out in winter. They are acting beyond their competence. A lay person might not realise this and think the person was competent.
Both theleader and the centre would be seen as negligent
Matt
Read up on yhe three part test fir negligence and the stanards by which actions are judged
The shop assistant is not professing to have special skills so no liability
I'd be interested in your experience Matt with outdoor residential centres and meds. I've been in the position of (after some training, but not a lot) of dispensing controlled meds as well as paracetamol daily to children in a loco parentis situation. There are thousands of people in the UK doing the job I did doing this too.
Personally I think the model that could work in a work place is a mini shop, selling paracetamol etc at cost. Obviously there are tens of thousands of small shops in the UK already that do this. It's very different to a first aider who is in effect assessing your health and advising a solution. This is a financial transaction with an adult.
Rather than look at why you can't do something it's always good to think about how you could do something ... and in the case of low grade painkillers it really isn't as hard as some people are making out.
An employer with a genuine interest in their workers H&S would likely have a trained first aider on staff. That person could easily be responsible for:
- Keeping the painkillers in a locked and secure place
- Regulating access to the drugs through a strict policy
- Keeping records of when and who takes the painkillers
- Aligning with a drug and alcohol policy to be sure that misuse of over-the-counter drugs in the workplace is dealt with.
The OP said that the industry is 'hands on.' My in-laws ran a small ISO certified roto-moulding and composite plastic factory. They absolutely had a requirement for First Aid facilities (I have their old kits), and therefore trained first aiders and a rigorous policy.
Employer providing meds will be held to a higher standard than a lay person as they are professing to have that greater knowledge simply by dispensing them even tho its highky unlikely they have that knowledge
I'm fairly certain you are wrong - why would an employer be assumed to have greater knowledge than a shop keeper - unless you are employed by a drug company? Even if they were, why is the risk acceptable for a GSL medication in a corner shop not also acceptable for a GSL medication from the office receptionist (or a self service basis from a vending machine), if thats OK what extra real risk does self service from a shelf bring. The HSE seem to agree that you are wrong. Its probably an MHRA question - I can't find anything which probably suggests its not something they are worried about.
Abit like someone in your world who does not have winter mountain leader qualifications but as an employee of an outdoor centre takes a group out in winter.
Nothing like that (although that won't necessarily mean there's the basis for a negligence claim depending on the circumstances anyway!).
They are acting beyond the skills they have butcas an employee of the cetre would be judged as if they did have
Only if they "promoted themselves" or "implied" that they had some specialist skills or knowledge which would suggest others should place additional trust in them. I don't believe any such implication exists for an employer-employee relationship with the availability of OTC medications. You seem once again to be assuming that the employer is encouraging the person to take something they wouldn't otherwise - all they are doing is saving someone walking across the road. I'll once again invite you to cite any case law that shows there is a problem, and then ask the question if there is none because there is no specific enhanced duty of care OR because the products are so safe if used for their intended use by intelligent people that nobody has actually come to harm from sharing paracetemol/ibuprofen in the workplace whether officially or when the boss' back is turned? Or do you honestly believe its because there's virtually no sharing goes on? As you are claiming to have some university qualification in law and ethics, where does an employer sit if they know Mavis on reception is the "go to person for paracetemol" but they turn a blind eye? What if Mavis is not as reliable as everyone assumed and mixes up paracetemol and ibuprofen because she just dishes out the tablets rather than providing in the box with the IFU as a good employer would do if providing the product themselves?
All i can say is this is what i was taught . As you can read however i was fuzzy on details. If i was at home i could check further
Employees / employer relationship is not the same as between peers.
LSD and crisps
The last time I had LSD, for some reason I also had a bag of cheese and onion crisps. I threw up. Maybe it was the extra side portion of magic mushrooms that put me over the edge.
Moral to the story, don't mix your hallucinogens and potato based hydrogenated fatty snacks kids.
I wasn't at work though, so fortunately I didn't need to raid the wellness box on that occasion
All i can say is this is what i was taught . As you can read however i was fuzzy on details. If i was at home i could check further
Employees / employer relationship is not the same as between peers.
I think this may be the issue.
A first aider is, as I understand it and despite multiple urban myth stories, not treated under law (criminal or civil) as a trained or professional person. They are treated as 'the person in the street, trying to help'. Unless of course they lie and 'self promote' as some superhero.
I don't think there is a different 'contract' or liability between a shopkeeper, an employer, borrowing from a friend etc. This is a grown adult who is not vulnerable making a decision to buy, take or borrow a medicine they are capable of choosing, and understand the risks of taking. A first aider is taught to give aspirin and encouraged to carry it... They are taught to give GTN spray, assist someone take meds they are trying to take, inject epipen, give sugar etc. These are all drugs.
And let's not forget that the risks are so flipping small....and so much of medicine is benefit Vs risk judgement.
Anyway, I'm on my first aid next week, I'll ask the trainer who I know already dispels so many myths around first aid. I think a lot of people over think and over worry about a lot of this - and there's very little law, regulation or case law to back up the worries people repeat regularly.
The whole liability in outdoors and education is both a different ball game, and I'm not sure your representing the civil or criminal liability, or industry standards well. I agree that's there's an increased moral responsibility and changed civil and criminal 'lines of responsibility '. But it's a world away from from the Care Basket the op is talking about.
TJ is right but also wrong.
You can keep over the counter medications for staff to request, not in a first aid kit but somewhere else say like a welfare box. If they ask for it or take the medication wilfully themselves then they are self prescribing. However, an employer or representative can’t say “here have some paracetamol” as that’s then prescribing.
If your employer provides medicines they carry the liability if something goes wrong as the person taking the pills can cliam that the employer dispensing them was in effect saying that thise pills were ok to take
Cross out "employer" and read "supermarket." Does your statement still hold water?
You may well be right, but if you are then it's utter madness.
OK, agreed. Had anyone ever heard that notion in the real world?
It seems to be what TJ is asserting unless I've misunderstood.
” fred said take paracetamol and he is the first aider so it must be ok”
This is really very basic stuff.
There is Paracetemol available if you want it, no-one is "prescribing" anything.
In my industry there is a concept called the "controlling mind," something goes sideways and the responsibility (and blame) lies not with who did it but the person who instructed them to do it. I'm struggling to see here a scenario where someone instructs a co-worker to take drugs.
I consider you a friend, Jeremy, but you do choose the most curious of hills to die on.
Its not so much as a hill to die on as trying to explain what to some seems inexplicable. I ain't made a good job of it tho🙄😜
I fully accept that there are myths around liability especially in nursing. I have been taught stuff i know is wrong by nurse tutors. However my stuff on liability and negligence came from a professor of law.
From what i know a first aider would be seen as someone professing to have knowledge hence the liabilty if they dispense medicines but i will be interested in what Matt gets back from his training on this.
I would also see employers at risk if they provide medicines for similar reasons.
It might be interesting for cougar to look up this stuff around negligence and liability and those who have special knowledge or could be seen to have
Im staying with pals in the yukon and posting on my phone so i have no access to my notes from university
However my stuff on liability and negligence came from a professor of law
Hmmm, go and find two more and you'll probably then have three different opinions to choose from. Even in a binary decision.
From what i know a first aider would be seen as someone professing to have knowledge hence the liabilty if they dispense medicines but i will be interested in what Matt gets back from his training on this.
Again,
No-one is "dispensing" anything. They're not strolling through the office ramming prescription drugs down employees' throats, they're sticking a pack of over-the-counter painkillers in a shoebox. Explain to us how someone with a headache going to the cupboard or to Mabel in Accounts is any different from going to ASDA next door.
It might be interesting for cougar to look up this stuff around negligence and liability and those who have special knowledge or could be seen to have
You first.
In any case, the question my friend asked was "what small thing can I do to make life a little easier for my employees," not "how do I send my workforce into anaphylaxis and get away with it."
Unbelievable. Start a fight in an empty house.
Good idea... Boxing gloves. Add those to the box to help solve any workplace disagreements.
Cougar. That is dispensing if they say " there are paracetamol in the box"
I am not where i can access my notes on this i thought you might find it interesting to read up on it.
Suffice to say an employer providing meds takes them into legally dubious areas .
Again again,
How is that any different from me taking a box of brufen into work and being known as the go-to when someone has a headache? Any clown can "dispense" OTC drugs with impunity unless they've been officially trained in which case they can no longer do so? That's lunacy.
Unbelievable. Start a fight in an empty house.
Quite.
Regardless of whether you're right or wrong TJ, it's not my concern and this doesn't answer the question I asked in the OP. That being, what can my friend keep a small stock of onsite which their employees might find useful? I was looking for suggestions like "disposable toothbrushes" rather that a lecture on the potential litigation from having a Lemsip on the premises.
Thats it settled. industrial sized box of paracetamol in the staff box, just to annoy TJ.
How patronising.
I've now had time to check the Human Medicines Regulations 2012. There is no requirement for the person supplying a general sale list medication (paracetemol/ibuprofen) to charge money for it. The requirements are you cannot maufacturer the product yourself, you must have control of the premises you are supplying in (ie. Mabel doesn't but employer does!), you must be able to exclude the general public, it must be supplied in the original packaging. The only slightly odd curiosity is you must supply full, unopened, packets - ie. your employer can give you 16 tablets but should not just give you 2 (or at least if you only take 2 he shouldn't then allow anyone else to use the other 14)!
If you really want TJ's head to explode - here's a genuine scenario I found myself in a few years ago:
You are running a residential training weekend for young people (12-15) - think Scouts (although it wasn't actually the scouts). You are one of the designated first aiders having been trained to do so; the training only covered the administration of aspirin for suspected heart attack. At about 23:45 one of the young people complains of feeling unwell and having a severe headache. There are no signs of injury and nothing to suggest anything other than minor ailness. Its a 3 hr trip "home" so its not realistic to get parents to collect or to take them back. The first aid kit of course has no drugs in it. What do you do? There is a 24h petrol station within sight of the hotel you are staying in... I'll tell you what I did later... but when we debriefed the weekend later multiple suggestions were proposed:
- go to A&E/MIU
- call NHS24 and ask for out of hrs doctor
- go to the petrol station and get some tablets
- allow a small group including the young person themselves to go to the petrol station to get tablets
- call an emergency helpline the organisation runs for volunteers who have a crisis during a training weekend*
- its "just" a headache, it won't kill them and they'll have to endure it
(* the helpline is manned by a senior manager who probably has no first aid qualification and has never run a residential training weekend - they deal with out of hours calls from the press in the event of an incident etc!)
Was there a decision on the cheese knife? Maybe there needs to be a toaster or, better yet, a George Foreman grill in there as well. You know, for toasties.
Mind you, you'll need those painkillers when someone burns their mouth on the melted cheese.
And Worchestershire Sauce.
Thanks, Poly.
Just to further annoy people:
UK HSE rules explicitly recommend that a workplace first aid box shouldn't contain any medications except aspirin (to be use to treat a heart attack rather than pain relief).
For that reason, no sensible company director/office manager etc is going to have the company providing medications to staff. I appreciate that people here (except me) see a benefit of this - but all they are going to see is a potential lawsuit, and put the kibosh on it.
*checks if kibosh is unintentionally racist.... it's not*
Well I’ve learnt something interesting from this thread so thanks to those who have patiently explained it! I had also assumed that leaving everyday medical stuff in a box would be fine as people take responsibility for taking it themselves. But I can see the argument that the employer is held to a different, higher, standard in what they make available vs what I could personally offer to a friend or acquaintance.
@batfink correct not in the first aid box but can be stored elsewhere.
Medicines is a bizarre thing. My place of work had to apply for a new licence because they were changing how some drugs or stored. Wasn’t a huge change and made them even more secure, but still needed a new licence.
Poly.
Im not trained in that sort of scenario. Id have gone for nhs24 i think. In Scotland you get to speak to a registered nurse or doctor which helps. Pass the buck?
Butvas i say thats beyond my training and knowledge
UK HSE rules explicitly recommend that a workplace first aid box shouldn’t contain any medications except aspirin (to be use to treat a heart attack rather than pain relief).
A thought - who is a first aid box for? I've always assumed it is for a trained first aider to access the 'gear' to administer first aid. I.e. use their (modest) training to assess and treat. In reality in a lot of organisations it's accessible so if you cut yourself you'll rummage in it for a plaster and self administer.
OTC pain relief accessible (in whole boxes if that ticks the box) to be bought/given at no cost to an employee specifically for their own use at their personal use supplied from an entirely separate location to the first aid box is not the same thing I don't think. What I think is irrelevant mind and I'm not convinced anyone here really knows for sure.
Any parents here have teens that have gone away on multi day trips? Pretty usual for staff in those situations to be given OTC pain meds for things like period pain, significant headaches etc. How do you feel about that? Do you trust their judgement?
A thought – who is a first aid box for? I’ve always assumed it is for a trained first aider to access the ‘gear’ to administer first aid.
Yes. IDK other places but we don't have an accessible FAK, we have multiple FAs with their own FAKs and a "Code 10, Module 6" type tannoy call.
Ergo, if FAs can't / shouldn't give painkillers (aspirin exception, etc) and only FAs have access to the FAK then no need or justification to have painkillers in FAKs.
But that's not the same as a wellness box, which specifically ISN'T a FAK and isn't only for use by FAs
FWIW, because FAs were regularly being asked for a plaster for a paper cut or a blister from new shoes or whatever (ie not really FA stuff) we do have plaster dispensers freely accessible. Cleverly as you take the plaster out of the reel it peels off the first half of the backing, so unless you go right to the extreme of storing up loads of backing pieces, you can't just nick a load.