[Closed] SQA getting their knickers in a twist because kids being kids

I’m pretty sure it’s not the kids fault FFS!

If they're cheating in tests, bit hard not to see them as having some responsibility.

Thing is, if you can't maintain test security and it's easy to cheat, there just isn't any point in having tests, unless it's purely for self-diagnostic purposes.

If they’re cheating in tests, bit hard not to see them as having some responsibility.

Some responsibility sure, but in the grand scheme of things?

They do not have to cheat the exam boards put all the “secure” questions with answers on their websites for everyone to see weeks ago as they said the students would share them anyway and that was the only way to make it equal for everyone. It’s a joke.

I've been doing uni exams online, and because they know it's effectively open book, the exam is more difficult and questions are designed to be not 'googleable'.

Much harder than previous past papers.

I'm struggling to keep up. My daughter is in S4

First we were told the would not have exams
Now we are told they will have exams but they are not exams
We have also been told that the exams that are not exams will not matter as they can also used assessed work or prelims to give a grade.

There has not been any clear guidance from the SQA for schools. For instance, in one school the papers are being sat as exams, in exam conditions only under smaller groups due to covid capacity in rooms.

In another school, the students are being prepped for questions 1-3 one week with a test on those questions with next batch of question the following week...

It does seem to be hugely variable - even within our local authority our son is having a very different experience (full-on exam conditions, blind assessment) to a friend (leading / working through questions for a week before, assessment is in classroom with teacher available to help support, done a chunk at a time over a week or so....

South of the border, my sons A level maths assessment today included questions on the AQA "sample questions" list.

He's a happy boy....

My son is going his Highers assessments at the moment. How he's coping with the stress and uncertainty is amazing. It's enlightening to see the variability in approach even in related subjects - Maths, Physics and Engineering Science. Just got to hope that some kind of levelling of grades across the country results in an accurate reflection of the effort and attainment made.
Oh look, a pig with wings!

Like Nobeer I have an open book uni exam next month, no idea how hard that's going to be but just got to make the best of it.

SQA have messed up but made some very clear instructions.
Firstly the exams are published on a secure website so not in public domain. If the school has cocked up their security the IP address should be on the printed version.
They've also stated that if sat in chunks then the overall grade boundaries have to rise. So my class A is 70% but exactly same questions sat in chunks A becomes 80%.
If it is shown that a teacher/dept/school is teaching to test ie they know the exam and revision is directed to certain questions then GTCS should have them up for unprofessional conduct. And I for one would happily report such behaviour. It's a reason that we are only doing things as instructed through email so there is a paper trail.

I can confidently state its the teachers fault, whatever the problem is!!

I have had to email the head of my son's 6th form today. My son was incensed yesterday because their maths class is spit into two. They both sit exactly the same papers, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. Some of the pupils in the morning sitting tell the afternoon shift the answers.

There is also widespread copying of answers because they are sat next to each other. It seems like a total waste of time and some people will profit purely because of the time of day that they are sitting the tests and some because they are copying others.

I had a massive bullshit response from the teacher that went on to get my son to grass up who is cheating (pretty much the whole of the 6th form).

I wrote a whole physics paper so no one has seen it

But probably that just means they'll all get lower grades than if I'd grabbed one they all knew the answers to

Great system

Or take SQA one. In MC change order of questions and in questions order of answers so that anyone learning answers will be thrown.
In written change numbers in calculations and any one word answers eg change question so answer is ethane not methane relative simple alterations and keeps the SQA "prior verified" label. Also highlights cheaters as they will have original order and answers.

Although I've seen a kids video from tiktok where he's giving the paper away. He's pretty much just doing what we do when we say there are always marks on X so you need that. He's just saying there's a syngas question, well yes it has to be in that's why we always say learn the syngas stuff (syngas is no longer in the chemistry syllabus).

Poah that's true but as you know it's us teachers that are the laughing stock.

It's an awful year for all in education.

I'm watching my own kid struggle and stress. Pupils are doing thier best.

I'm watching teachers near the edge on what they can cope with after the most intense year ever.

I personally am not close enough to the process, but I do wonder if SQA and Ed.Scot. could have been further ahead of the game, planning more assignment based assessment, problem solving / applied test activities in many subjects, etc.

If they’re cheating in tests, bit hard not to see them as having some responsibility.

Who’s cheating though?

A pupil studying for tomorrow’s maths assessment is not cheating if they do a past paper or mock test; a group of students discussing q&a on a topic is not to be criticised rather commended - it’s a great thing that they are interested, learning, using tech outside the classroom. Covid has encouraged it but we used to discuss past paper questions with each other back in the days with a landline in the living room when as well as remembering the answers you had to remember your friends’ phone numbers!

All that’s different here is pupils are discussing the actual paper. (Although you’ve no idea if your own school will use the same actual paper or a modified version so efforts at reciting an answer may be misplaced). That does give later students a possible advantage; but given many exams are not marked just on the right answer often it won’t give as big an advantage as you think and might even lead to suspicion on cheating (if a pupil got the right answer with a wrong working step you’d wonder how they got there).

Presumably since teacher judgement comes into play and these assessments are not to be the be all and end all that exams would have been, if a pupil expected to struggle suddenly does a perfect paper there is scope for scrutiny anyway. For what its worth whilst having seen the paper before hand might help a B+ pupil get and A- or an A- become an A+, most pupils understanding (or lack of) will still be apparent.

If a schools results suddenly jumps hugely i imagine they will get moderated?

My eldest is in Y11 in a Girls Grammar (super selective) and is bright, so will do ok whatever, plus she’s worked hard. From the schools approach you can see that they value the preparedness for the sixth form as much as individual grades, so certainly aren’t coaching to exams.
They are using the Central Tests as part of 6 pieces of evidence & a wholistic overview. My daughter has been revising hard and the exam process itself (not full GCSE’s granted) is good experience for 6th form & uni.

For what its worth whilst having seen the paper before hand might help a B+ pupil get and A- or an A- become an A+, most pupils understanding (or lack of) will still be apparent.

But would the boosting of some results through knowing the answers shift the grade boundaries and penalise students who sat the morning papers? Genuine question as I have no idea!

But would the boosting of some results through knowing the answers shift the grade boundaries and penalise students who sat the morning papers? Genuine question as I have no idea!

I'm not actually sure how 'grade boundaries' are being handled in this new regime. I think last year students were graded A1/A2/B3/B4/C5/C6 etc - AND ranked in order within a school - so it was obvious which students were scraping into a grade or were very top of the band. Are they doing the same again? The (very limited) information from the school implies just A-D, decided by the teacher, reviewed by School Leadership, some sampling by SQA to justify the claims - not sure what happens if SQA say "school X has been very harsh/generous for its Nat 5 Maths grades that we looked at: do they adjust all without checking - even is they are ranked it would seem harsh to downgrade Joe, because Bob got a better mark than he should without looking at Joe's evidence OR ask to see all Nat 5 maths from that school? - given the timings etc that could be a challenge".

I *think* the point of the assessments v's exams thing was not that two students who got 72/100 in a maths paper in Aberdeen and Glasgow sitting the same paper would necessarily both get an A. In the Exam world they would. The point was that there was some standardised form of evidence for the teachers to support their decisions - but they can take into account when the paper was sat, the environment, if it was in one go or split up into chunks etc - so the Aberdeen teacher might take that paper plus other evidence and say this pupil is definitely an A, but the Glasgow teacher might say although they just scraped above 70% on this paper they sat it a week later than most people in the country, they have performed poorer in other tests I think they are just a very good B. I don't know how well that will happen or the QA process will ensure fairness - I know a couple of teachers who would much rather not be sitting in judgement on their own students (they both mark for SQA normally so its not the judging that's hard - its judging when you know A probably understands it but didn't write it as clearly a B who just recited that text book!).

There will be winners and losers, but that’s no different to actual exams. Good day/bad day. Favourite topic/misread question. Lucky day.

No system is perfect. At least students this year are being assessed locally and we have to have a degree of faith in the professionalism of teachers and senior staff.

There will be winners and losers, but that’s no different to actual exams. Good day/bad day. Favourite topic/misread question. Lucky day.

There is a distinct difference between that and widespread cheating that benefits some pupils and not others.

and we have to have a degree of faith in the professionalism of teachers and senior staff.

No we don't. If my teachers had any say in my results they would have got me horrendously wrong. I significantly over achieved in my exams at school relative to my teachers view of my ability. The teachers had no clue and were astonished at my grades. So no. teachers are not that good, they don't know their students. If they are going to have a say in the outcomes then it cannot be subjective and there has to be some form of mechanism or process in place to quantitively assess kids grades...I don't know maybe something like a paper with some questions on it that kids have to answer themselves based upon the knowledge they've accrued through the course of attending class and studying. If only we had a name for such a mechanism.

Cheating mechanisms can be overcome easily enough if the advent of social media has affected things. Not hard or difficult to sort out.

Maybe they were right & you were lucky?
Shame you have such a low opinion of the teaching profession. Those I know are desperate to get this right.

Maybe they were right & you were lucky?
Shame you have such a low opinion of the teaching profession. Those I know are desperate to get this right.

I'd tend to agree with wobbliscott tbh, was similar myself, we had limited computing space at school, those that were chosen were based on their combined english and maths grades in 2nd year of secondary school. I had higher grades than a fair few of my peers who were allowed in, I wasn't. But my parents weren't pushy and I was mibbe too cheeky for my own good.

I don't have a low opinion of the teaching profession, I just don't share the exceptionally high opinion of themselves that many of them seem have, often evident in my conversations with them.

Here we go again.

significantly over achieved in my exams at school

Ok how did class tests go? Because I was lazy and performed well in exams means the evidence in the mark book were poor. At present we only have test results which is why these assessments are so unfairly important (re a normal exam diet).

I’d tend to agree with wobbliscott tbh, was similar myself

Same here, my German teacher would have failed me on the spot if she could (despite continuous assessment and a 1 at Standard Grade indicating otherwise), ended up with a B.

They’ve also stated that if sat in chunks then the overall grade boundaries have to rise. So my class A is 70% but exactly same questions sat in chunks A becomes 80%

This is only in certain subjects. Are you science by any chance?

but I do wonder if SQA and Ed.Scot. could have been further ahead of the game, planning more assignment based assessment, problem solving / applied test activities in many subjects, etc.

The problem here (and at lots of other times too) is that these 2 organisations argue over who has responsibility for what. The SQA will say they are the exam board so they provide and mark exams. It's outwith their remit to provide alternatives. They say Education Scotland should do that. Meanwhile, Education Scotland say, we're not an exam board, it's not up to us to provide assessmment resources that's the SQA's job. It's a ****ing shambles.

What the SQA should have done is provide a bank of questions that schools could choose from to compile their assessments so that wholescale leaks were less likely. But they didn't because see my post above.

The SQA will say they are the exam board so they provide and mark exams

This will probably also be the tack they will take to f*ck everyone over with the appeals system for this year. They'll say they can't administer the appeals system as they would administer appeals for exams which they have set and marked but of course they haven't set and marked them...

I can confidently state its the teachers fault, whatever the problem is!!

So no. teachers are not that good, they don’t know their students.

I don’t have a low opinion of the teaching profession, I just don’t share the exceptionally high opinion of themselves that many of them seem have, often evident in my conversations with them.

Told you, bloody teachers

I'm not going to put in my 2p as I'm not teaching at the moment, but I saw this on TES and thought it might be good to share here to see it from a kid's perspective:

https://www.tes.com/news/exam-details-tiktok-are-symptom-flawed-system

@Spin yep Chemistry/Envsci.

SQA are laughing though. Appeals system will be "show evidence covering full/50%+ course".which can only be got after Christmas and they don't seem to acknowledge the lockdown didn't allow for assessment in test conditions.

Told you, bloody teachers

Why do teachers take any criticism of some of their colleagues as a criticism of all teachers?.

There's plenty of folk in Engineering that are ****in useless, doesn't mean everyone is, ditto any profession.

Nae need to spit the dummy.

What the SQA should have done is provide a bank of questions that schools could choose from to compile their assessments so that wholescale leaks were less likely. But they didn’t because see my post above.

But schools can modify the questions or produce their own? My son says their school aren't using the SQA papers directly. That may mean he has a different perspective on this but he wasn't aware of widespread cheating as being suggested in the media:

There is a distinct difference between that and widespread cheating that benefits some pupils and not others.

He did question how anyone had the actual paper after the test though - as you hand it back in and suggested if teachers had missed or ignored someone bringing their phone out to capture it during the test they weren't proper assessment conditions! He said he wouldn't trust classmates to remember the questions and just study them never mind a total stranger!

SQA are laughing though. Appeals system will be “show evidence covering full/50%+ course”.which can only be got after Christmas and they don’t seem to acknowledge the lockdown didn’t allow for assessment in test conditions.

Have you seen anything that suggests appeals will be for anything other than admin errors? ie. that pupils will be able to question the grade teachers awarded OR rescaling of those grades by SQA? As I understand it teachers are permitted/encouraged to tell pupils what they submit before the end of term - presumably so the SQA has less workload from people who are surprised (which also makes me question if they will adjust grades at all?)

But schools can modify the questions or produce their own?

Long experience of the SQA suggests that if they've issued something it's best to use it rather than go off piste. They've got a history of saying 'use your professional judgement' then later on saying 'we didn't mean like that'. I hate them but they are very good at producing exam papers and making ones own assessments is not as straightforward as many teachers seem to think, especially so in a situation like this where the stakes are high and you may face scrutiny. There's also a workload issue, why make your own when one has been provided? Obviously some had tought their courses in a way that meant that with lockdown gaps the SQA paper wasn't suitable but most could use it with only minor alterations.

Why do teachers take any criticism of some of their colleagues as a criticism of all teachers?.

So no. teachers are not that good, they don’t know their students.

and laughing at the inevitable is hardly spitting the dummy champ

Have you seen anything that suggests appeals will be for anything other than admin errors

It's all still under wraps but I think there will be huge demand for independent adjudication and it has to be the SQA who do that. As their MO throughout this and before the pandemic has been to put as much responsibility on schools and do as little as possible themselves I don't have much faith in them to do the right thing here.

Also, did you do their online consultation about appeals? Three options and only one was close to something that looked like independent adjudication, the others were basically 'you guys sort it out yourselves while we fanny around in the background writing guidance documents'.

Appeals will be a mess with teachers taking flack.
Appeal 1: final grade and actual grade don't match, admin error school/SQA agree and sort.
Appeal 2: little Jimmy didn't get the grade he needed in assessment. Find evidence to support upgrade, which won't exist because we'd have used it. Teacher error in not giving enough assessment opportunities of the correct standard.

As for changing questions, it has long been held that you can change part of prior-verified questions as long as the question stays fundamentally the same. Eg in chem changing a Mg ion to a Ca ion or numbers in a calculation, which is what I'm doing for a AH paper.

little Jimmy didn’t get the grade he needed

Here I suspect it will be grade they wanted, and that some of our parents will capitalise on the difficult year and just appeal anything below top grade in the expectation of moving up a grade or two.

We've history of that in Dunblane anyway. Rumor is our appeal  numbers on a normal year are much higher than average.

Yes wanted/needed. SQA took speculative appealing out a couple of years ago. No doubt there will be some cases where it is appropriate but this year evidence will be sparse.
I have a lazy pupil who does better in exams than work through the year would suggest (SQA want evidence based judgement). I know they've got an online tutor and due to flunking the "prelim" have been hitting work hard (concerned for mental health) but if they don't make it to the next assessment I have to use the poor prelim and they lose the place on the high tarriff uni course.

When I say perform better we only have 1piece of evidence for this from two years ago and although you can be trained to pass N5 you need ability to pass AH.

100th - I know parents of a few like that... I'm not sure what they expected when exams were cancelled, its not like last time when it was a bit of a surprise and you might have been resting all your hopes on pulling off a miracle again - its was entirely predictable that exams might be cancelled and they were fairly early on! If you got Prelims in your are better than some schools. There are pupils at my son's school in S6 who probably got lucky with the debacle last year and on hearing exams were cancelled again seemed to assume everything would just be OK again - but seemingly haven't been that engaged in learning! At the opposite extreme there are pupils who have unconditional offers (so don't need a grade), have plenty of evidence and are still stressing the "assessments" like their entire future depends on it!