[Closed] Sprint vs VO2 max HIIT - Optimal work and rest intervalls?

Please tell me you're including rest weeks in your plan? Your body gets stronger when it has time to recover (2 weeks hard, 1 week easy recommended). Other than that a ramp test every week is a bit excessive IMO but other than that, crack on.

The longer ride would ideally be outdoors with some high rpm form sprints and mashing (can't do those on my stationary fanbike).

@andyr Not included any rest weeks but figure they will be auto included when things get in the way of workouts.

Wonder if I should perhaps do leg strength work instead of the sprint HIIT or just do some squats before and perhaps cut it down to 20 min so 5 sets of intervalls pr set instead of 6. 20 minutes of HIIT should be plenty?

I've always seen sprint efforts suggested with a few minutes recovery, I don't know the science behind it though.

I guess you need to be fully recovered between the efforts to make sure you can hit your maximum over and over else you're eventually training below your focus.

Since your focus is VO2 rather then maximum power...

First sentence doesn't sound strong enough to drive a training regimen like that.

Any interval regime on the turbo is pretty hard once you're past that initial wave of enthusiasm, VO2 max especially. So how are you going to do it when you don't want to do it?

I’d probably go with one VO2 session a week and pad the rest out with Z2 and Sweetspot

So how are you going to do it when you don’t want to do it?

Motivation is not a problem, I like to suffer, just have an extremely hectic year coming up with 2 jobs + full time studies :>

STUDIES

2010 "10 or 30-s sprint interval training bouts enhance both aerobic and anaerobic performance"
They did 30s on 4 min off VS 10s on 4 min off and 10s on 2 min off for a total of 6 workouts with 5 sets pr workout over 2 weeks (not a lot!). Unfortunately they did not test peak power output.

TT performance increased 30:4 (5.2%), 10:4 (3.5%), and 10:2 (3.0%).
VO2max increased 30:4 (9.3%) and 10:4 (9.2%) and 10:2 no change.
Wingate 30s peak power increased 30:4 (9.5%), 10:4 (8.5%), and 10:2 (4.2%).

2018 "Adaptive Changes After 2 Weeks of 10-s Sprint Interval Training With Various Recovery Times"
Same as above but 10s sprints with 1 or 4 minutes recovery.

VO2max increased 10:1 13.6% and 10:4 11.9% (significant but not significant between groups).
Wingate 30s power increased around 7% for both groups.
Wingate 30s end power output 10:1 +10.8% and 10:4 no change (so the 10:1 group may have increased endurance through VO2 max more with a higher end power output whereas the 10:4 group increased the initial power output of the 30s interval more, in other words the 10:1 group may have developed type IIa muscle fibers more and the 10:4 group might have stimulated IIb more?).

Have you thought about getting down to the velodrome - there is an international standard one in Berlin? Track riders have the most powerful, technical sprint skills of anyone. Training sessions there will give you a lot of knowledge and interactions around what really works to develop sprint power - obv check people's strava times first to ensure adequate credentials.

2019 "Combined effects of very short “all out” efforts during sprint and resistance training on physical and physiological adaptations after 2 weeks of training"

Perhaps the most interesting study, as they compared a pure squatting regimen (SQUAT), with HIIT sprints then squatting (CONCURRENT) and HIIT sprints only (SPRINT). Work sets were 6-12 of 5s on 24s off sets, 6 sessions total over 2 weeks, volume of squatting was time matched with sprinting.

VO2max significantly increased in SPRINT 7% and CONCURRENT 6% only (it non significantly increased 4% in the squat group however).

Squat 1RM max improved 10% in SQUAT and 6% in CONCURRENT with 0% increase in SPRINT.

Countermovement jump increased 9% in SQUAT (significant), 4% in CONCURRENT and actually decreased 3% in the sprint group albeit non significantly for the two latter groups.

This tells me that 5s sprints don't increase explosive leg strength, it may even hurt your jumping ability - but they don't hamper strength gains from concurrent training much either. The ideal "bang for you buck" workout might be combining a quick squat session with 20 minutes of HIIT sprints. The study found the most overall improvement in the CONCURRENT group.

Have you thought about getting down to the velodrome

No time for that live too far away :>

Isn't it a concern that all the studies you cite are only two weeks long? Doesn't experience show that gains made using sets of very short intervals are quickly achieved, but limited? Will you still be improving after 4 weeks, 3 months, 6 months?

Are those studies on well trained athletes or beginners?

No need to Ramp Test every week, you are unlikely to see genuine changes that quickly, anything you notice is more likely to be you becoming accustomed to the test protocol. Every four to six weeks is enough, do it as the first workout AFTER a rest week.

HIIT fitness is somewhat "fragile" in that it doesn't last long. Also doing it for too long can lead to burnout. I'd do just the VO2max workout plus a couple of Sweet Spot sessions then as you get close to when you want to attempt those KOMs swap in the sprint workout.

Do you have a rocker plate for your turbo? All out sprints on the turbo run the risk of damaging your bike as it can't move around in the same way as out on the road.

@wbo there are longer studies, I'm not too concerned.

@whitestone

Are those studies on well trained athletes or beginners?

Generally intermediates, not pros not beginners. Turns out someone did a meta review of dozens of such studies in "2020 Hall et al. The Effects of Sprint Interval Training on Physical Performance A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis".

HIIT fitness is somewhat “fragile” in that it doesn’t last long. Also doing it for too long can lead to burnout. I’d do just the VO2max workout plus a couple of Sweet Spot sessions then as you get close to when you want to attempt those KOMs swap in the sprint workout.

Sources for the fragile claim? I agree the two VO2 max sessions are most important, when it comes to KOMs they're clearly more effective than the sprint intervalls which are not really needed for anything TBH. I'll save the sprint training for training for the road (have a fanbike not a turbo trainer) and throw in some squats instead.

Don't have a source to hand. By fragile I mean if you just do HIIT then there isn't enough base fitness to back it up so you need to be doing it all the time just to stand still. A good base means the HIIT tops things up as well as giving you that top end.

Looking at the plan I'm doing the proportion of HIIT is limited to begin with then increases as the target event nears with the last couple of weeks being a taper. Conversely Threshold and tempo/sweet spot makes up most of the early weeks and reduces as the event nears.

Start with just one VO2max workout for the first block of say four weeks and see how you handle it. Otherwise you'll do the too much too soon thing. I'd also look at adapting your VO2max intervals as time goes on. So start with 30s on/30s off, move to 45s/30s, 60s/60s and so on until you get to 3mins/4mins. The intensity will drop during this sequence, probably 120% at the end. You could do this for one of the sessions and keep the Tabata style for the other.

Edit: personally I'd do way more than 5 minutes warmup for those type of workouts, more like ten working up to FTP sort of level then a couple of clearing 30 second efforts then a few minutes at whatever your rest/recovery level is. Appreciate it adds to the length of the workout but getting everything properly warmed up will make the workout more effective.

Thanks for the input, I don't buy the fragility argument and think you could get pretty good FTP results from just 30s HIIT BUT agree that polarizing your training and including e.g. sweet spot and recovery weeks will be better than pure HIIT, in a study with elite athletes HIIT combined with low intensity training and recovery weeks did best (polarized training) followed by pure HIIT (but perhaps not if factoring in time cost efficacy).

"In this study of elite athletes performing HIIT, HVT, THR or POL training, POL results in the greatest improvements in key variables of endurance performance (VO2peak, TTE, V/Ppeak, and V/P4). HIIT led to a decrease in body mass and less pronounced increases in VO2peak compared with previous findings using short term (1–2 weeks) HIIT, suggesting that a 9 week HIIT should be applied with care. Exclusive training with THR or HVT did not lead to further improvements in endurance performance related variables in well-trained athletes."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3912323/

and here's a good general resource https://www.wattkg.com/cycling-science/

Right now I have ridiculously little time to work out, about 1 hour for cardio and 1 hour for strength, so I'm thinking 3 workouts per week.

VO2 max HIIT 20 min x 2, Sweet spot 20 min all with 20 min strength work before each session - hope cycling to the store counts as recovery riding, then once some time frees up hopefully in march throw in some outdoor rides and throw in some Z2 recovery rides in-between whenever I find time.

https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/polarized-training-vs-sweet-spot-dylan-johnson-video/49280/291

I'm using wattkg.com as my bible, not necessarily because I think it is the 'best' resource, but it's just nice to stick to one approach, and I like his, condenses the science down to some easily replicable sessions.

I tried his short interval workout today. He recommends 3x13 30/15 with 3 min recovery.

Being realistic, I started with 3x8 30/15 at 130% FTP. I managed to tag on an extra rep at the end of the 3rd set so will continue to add reps until hopefully I'm up to the full number.

He suggests that a 2:1 ratio of work to rest has been shown to deliver best results, hence 30/15, 40/20, 60/30 etc.

I'd got the impression (alluded to above) that recovery between sets could be as long as required, better to be fully recovered in order to put another good set? I planned to take 5 minute recoveries but 3 minutes worked fine.

Going to try and combine this workout with a 4x8 threshold workout, although I tried that last time and it quickly became a 4x5, guess I went off too hard...

3×13 30/15 with 3 min recovery.

Damn @13thfloormonk so you'll basically be close to peak HR for each 13 "rep" set? Seems extreme, is that much time at VO2 max really necessary?

Figure I'll for now (until I have more time) do my two VO2 max intervals pr week preceded by strength work and some max 60% FTP/HR 30 min sets when I'm in an unproductive slump (e.g. after dinner) if anything it feels good mentally and doesn't get me "too high" to work afterwards.

I'm wondering if the polarization in polarized training is really that important, why not just do HIIT and rest? I get the feeling a lot of studies are comparing overtraining with too much sweet spot or too much HIIT with non-overtrained polarized regimens.

Would love to see a study comparing polarized training (high vol "baseline" zone 2 + HIIT) with only the HIIT component of it as we know baseline ""junk miles"" alone doesn't infer much benefit at least not in trained individuals.

Dylan Johnson did a video on HIIT a short while ago, maybe something in there.

There's links to the studies he uses in the video. There's one where HIIT is compared to race pace.

Damn @13thfloormonk so you’ll basically be close to peak HR for each 13 “rep” set? Seems extreme, is that much time at VO2 max really necessary?

No, was basically just over 90% max HR for 6 minutes at a time, if I did the full 13 reps it would be closer to 10 minutes. x3 sets would be anything up to 30 minutes of just over threshold which seems fairly standard?

I'm still trying to understand the relationship between intensity and duration for these sorts of efforts, e.g. should I go easier in order to complete more reps, or maintain the current effort but add reps as I get stronger?

Go all out, then hang on for dear life as you hit the wall in each one - isn't that how adaptation happens? 😉 I would lean toward going harder and finishing less reps. Once you're cooked and can only do 300w all out you've probably reached diminishing returns and I'd keep the HIIT part 30 min tops as your heart muscle could start getting damaged going beyond that (your heart antioxidant defense gets depleted etc).

Hmm, Whitestone, I'm not sure I've understood that video right, is he dismissing shorter intervals because you basically don't achieve any extra work over the course of the session (e.g. he's implying less time, but at a higher intensity, is no better than more time at a lower intensity?).

I did the maths and right enough, if you multiply power x minutes, then a 3x13 30/15 session (assuming I could complete it...) doesn't achieve a higher 'workload' than 4x5 at a lower intensity.

It seems intuitive to suggest though that time spent at higher power output is still a good thing to get your body used to it.

I'm going to stick with wattkg.com before I get confused! 😀

Go all out, then hang on for dear life as you hit the wall in each one

Ug, I tried that first few times, I don't have the capacity for suffering and each session was drawn to an early close! 😀

Not sure. I think I need to listen to it again. From what I understand there's definite benefits to stressing all these supra-threshold levels - his three sample workouts demonstrate that.

I'm just looking at Trainerroad's maintenance plan (which is essentially HIT and not really a plan, you just cherry pick workouts or whole weeks from it) and you get the usual reduction in intensity with increased duration. So 15 on/15 off is at 150% FTP, extend the efforts to 50s and intensity is now at 130% while 60s intervals are at 120%.

I think it depends what you are trying to stress/improve. I struggle with short recovery periods, so 60/30 is a struggle but 90/60 is OK even at the same intensity. I've not tried proper Tabata intervals, the 60/30 workout technically could be one but I don't think 125% of FTP is considered high enough.

In about ten days' time I've got: "3 sets of 7x1-minute intervals at 125% FTP where recoveries between intervals are 30 seconds long and 6mins rest between sets" The last time I did this workout I had to skip a couple of the intervals in the last set (I skipped the whole workout the next time it was scheduled!) yet the next week I did "3 sets of 5x90-second intervals that rise from 121% FTP to 125% FTP. Recoveries between intervals are 1 minute long and recoveries between sets of intervals are 5 minutes long." without too much trouble.

A case of finding your weak points I suppose.

I tend to go out at 300-400% FTP and try to hold 200% FTP in the 30 sec intervalls.. no pain no gain? hehe

I’m wondering if the polarization in polarized training is really that important, why not just do HIIT and rest?

Quite a lot of people have tried that, and it comes into fashion every now and again, but the reality is that it gives you a couple weeks of feeling great but long term improvement is limited, plateaus really quickly. This has been shown by a ton of practical experience. I've had a VO2 max tested at 73 ml/kg/min when I was younger very good at running, and that came mostly of volume and a limited amount intervals. The training looked very typical for the world class people I knew.

Ergo the comments that the training, effects, of HIT only are fragile, and unlikely to progress with time, and results from 2 weeks training are pretty meaningless for a long term program

m wondering if the polarization in polarized training is really that important, why not just do HIIT and rest?

Quite a lot of people have tried that, and it comes into fashion every now and again, but the reality is that it gives you a couple weeks of feeling great but long term improvement is limited, plateaus really quickly. This has been shown by a ton of practical experience. I’ve had a VO2 max tested at 73 ml/kg/min when I was younger very good at running, and that came mostly of volume and a limited amount intervals. The training looked very typical for the world class people I knew.

Would love to see some studies on it, seems like an obvious control group that has been left out or maybe it has been proven less effective in previous work. We'll see how my time crunched 2:1 base training : 30s HIIT intervals faire.