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Had a short conversation at a party recently with a chap who claimed he was ‘spiritual’. When it became obvious that I viewed the term with a smattering of risibility, he became unhappy and said it would be more appropriate to continue the conversation in different circumstances. When I asked if that was because his spirituality was ‘deep’, he concurred.
This got me thinking about the nature of ‘spirituality’ and wondered if it could be described as harmful. One benefit, I’ve heard claimed, is that it makes you happy and peaceful. Some that I’ve met seem to be so happy and peaceful they appear to barely function on an intelligent level.
To me, this appears very much like, say, being on heroin, which although it makes you feel fantastic, can hardly be said to be beneficial...
After a quick google, I found this:
Live and let live, you don't need to be so down on everything that you perceive to be the slightest bit religious.
So you upset someone by being rude to them - then have researched reasons why them being upset by that is their fault? 🙂
To me, this appears very much like, say, being on heroin, which although it makes you feel fantastic, can hardly be said to be beneficial…
After a quick google, I found this:
Elsewhere:
YOU made the claim, YOU do the legwork and that means more than just linking to or quoting some other internet conspiracy pillock. You know – actual verifiable attested evidence.
Cancels Woppit's party invite.
Had a short conversation at a party recently with a chap who claimed he was ‘spiritual’. When it became obvious that I viewed the term with a smattering of risibility, he became unhappy and said it would be more appropriate to continue the conversation in different circumstances. When I asked if that was because his spirituality was ‘deep’, he concurred.
One of you comes across as a bit of a sad individual. Some contemplation might let you see which.
One benefit, I’ve heard claimed, is that it makes you happy and peaceful.
I reckon you need to give it a try.
lols at dez.
I don't believe in gods but I do believe in Karma. & I have hugged a tree!
Does that make me spiritual?
I take it the audience with the Pope didn't go as expected?
😀
Sounds fair enough to me OP.
APF
You dont like religion: message received. Can we move on now?
Found something in the index of your site which might interest you Mr W ... 😉
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So you upset someone by being rude to them – then have researched reasons why them being upset by that is their fault?
This, pretty much. Did you throw any 'sky fairy' type jibing, or just laugh in his face?
It sounds like the stranger you treated with open contempt face to face in what should be a pleasant social environment dealt with it with some dignity, at least.
You dont like religion: message received. Can we move on now?
100%. Your very much the Pub bore on this topic Mr Woppit.
Why is challenging someone’s spirituality rude or offensive? You wouldn’t say this if you were challenging a political opinion, or their opinion on wheelsize or any other topic. Why should the topic of spirituality be taboo?
You really think someone’s beliefs is the same as debating wheel size? No of course you don’t.
It's not taboo, but as a basic principle also possible to have a discussion about someone's deepest personal beliefs in a respectful way rather than making it obvious that you find them 'risible'.
As an aside, I can't say the word 'risible' in my head without Michael Palin lisping it. 🙂
Why is challenging someone’s spirituality rude or offensive?
It's not....as long as you don't do it like Woppit generally does. In which case, it probably is.
I used to do similar at parties as a smart arse teenager.
I didn't get much.
I think the fact you felt the need to be rude about something someone believes (in your own words "risibility", i.e. with a tone of ridicule or laughing at) makes you a bit of a ****.
I've got friends of just about every world religion and no religion. Never once have I felt the need to try and mock, correct or challenge their beliefs. Beliefs are a personal thing, you should learn some respect and also the social filter to behave in a respectful and "live and let live" manner like most decent members of society.
Sort yourself out. Your anti religion/spirituality/deeper meaning rants are boring, rude and only serve to make you look like someone most normal people would avoid.
Why should the topic of spirituality be taboo?
I don't think it should be, but that's not what this is about.
Our brains are wired up to think that there should be something beyond the physical world. Humans question the need to live rather than just exist and survive like other animals. For some, the answer to this question is some form of existence or greater power beyond the physical and tangible. Something spiritual.
I'm fine with people wanting to believe there is a greater spiritual power that humans don't have the capacity or consciousness to understand, as long as they don't make shit up about it.
Why should the topic of spirituality be taboo?
It's not. What people are complaining about is Woppit himself, having presented himself as a grumpy old git with a wide nasty streak and more than happy to let it show. In this case, his original post whilst a bit passive-aggressive isn't as bad as some, but his previous form seems to have influenced its reception.
I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt as always though, maybe it's all the heroin I'm taking.
Spirituality cannot be described as 'harmful' any more than opinions, or ideas can be. It's far too vague. But then again, anything that lets you hide from certain aspects of reality could be described as harmful - drugs, ideas, or practices, whatever.
Our brains are wired up to think that there should be something beyond the physical world
Are they? Mine must be wired wrong.
Are they? Mine must be wired wrong.
And mine. But I kinda knew that already.
You really think someone’s beliefs is the same as debating wheel size?
I don't think one should be given any special privilege over the other (and on a point of note, Woppit's own beliefs are no more or less worthy than Mr Spiritual's, worth remembering when you're lining up to take him to task).
However, I probably wouldn't challenge a complete stranger over it unless they were being particularly pushy about it. Because,
as a basic principle also possible to have a discussion about someone’s deepest personal beliefs in a respectful way rather than making it obvious that you find them ‘risible’.
... ie, I'd try not to be an arse about it.
Are they? Mine must be wired wrong.
apologies, I was talking about sentient people.
More proof that 'don't be a dick' is the perfect answer to almost any question on here.
apologies, I was talking about sentient people.
Ah, fair enough.
Would you question this womans religeous views or respect them ? :
Would you question this womans religeous views or respect them ? :
See this above.
However, I probably wouldn’t challenge a complete stranger over it unless they were being particularly pushy about it.
I think someone ringing an LBC phone-in to talk about their curious beliefs can expect a frank exchange of views. Someone hoping for a bit of polite smalltalk with a stranger at a social event...well you can probably see the difference.
If Woppit's new friend had been urging him to repent or face a trip to the hot place, then he might be forgiven for offering his thoughts on the issue.
I don’t think one should be given any special privilege over the other
There is no privilege of one over the other but someone's beliefs of religion is not the same as choosing a wheel size for a bike.
Interesting range of responses from the dog bell contingent. 🤠
Just for the record, I wasn’t rude. I know the guy. We’ll probably discuss it later if he wants to. He wasn’t that upset.
Anyway. Now the punchy bunch have had a go... if you read the article, you’ll see that the subject has nothing to do with ‘religion’. It deals with modern, non-religious ‘spirituality’ and contrasts it with the general health of the religious and non-religious together.
I also note that, where I live ‘spirituality’ does go together with an enormous intake of dope, as highlighted in the article.
Perhaps my attackers need some of both themselves. Barking like a dog is so unbecoming. 😊
I used to do similar at parties as a smart arse teenager.
Agree, it is a very teenager way to act. As you get older you realise that is not the best way to act (or most of us do)
He wasn’t that upset.
Your OP said he was unhappy. By the same token, when people were calling you a dick, you shouldn't take it at face value.
There are ways to challenge someones views without being rude.
The corollary to that is that some people find the act that you disagree with them "offensive".
(actually based on this thread, many people seem to find the act of disagreeing with _anyone_ [except Mr Woppit] offensive 🙂
If someone says: "I believe X"
You answer: "I've never seen any reason to believe X and personally I see no need for it. What makes you think it is beneficial and/or true?"
If X was "that all shoes are blue and garfield the cartoon cat is the king of badgers" you're seen as a reasonable, perhaps restrained conversationalist.
If X is that "god is a man who killed himself temporarily so that he could forgive us for the things that we did not do to him" you're an intolerant gobshite.
Theres a lot of possible opinions under X and the more unjustified and unevidenced, the more offensive any questioning is seen to be.
Its just how things are.
Personally, I just go with what I say to people who believe in crystals or homeopathy.
If you find it beneficial I'm sure theres no harm in it, but you should be careful of anyone who recommends it as an alternative to anti-malaria drugs or as a cure for cancer.
Its the philosophical equivalent of the line from Spike Milligan.
"Does it hurt to urinate through it?"
"No."
"Well, I would just use it for that then."
Spirituality is a hugely vague term anyway so it's difficult to argue with generically.
Are you new here? (-:
I'm always reminded of Dave Allen's end to his show 'may your god go with you'. I always thought this hit the right note and its guided me ever since in how to deal with a secular world. That and tolerance.
Very salutary. How about dream catchers and a feeling of one-ness with the universe or getting a ‘special vibe’ from a pot of daffodils?
edit: nearly got sucked in
'Goodnight, and may you annoy everyone on the internet with whom you converse'
How about dream catchers
in what sense?
Our brains are wired up to think that there should be something beyond the physical world
Are they? Mine must be wired wrong.
Mine too. But then the assertion is probably wrong also. We might condition people to think that, but it doesn't have to be innate. Alternatively, you could just teach people some facts, which we don't appear to as good at as we should be - https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/do-people-really-think-earth-might-be-flat/
Our brains are wired up to think that there should be something beyond the physical world
We seek answers not sure we all look beyond the physical world.
Science, logic and rational thought have got us this far …
getting a ‘special vibe’ from a pot of daffodils?
Nah, you need to get that from LoveHoney.
in what sense?
Heads up Mr W, looks like you've got a bite. Careful with the reel now, not too quickly, don't want him to struggle too much now...
Heads up Mr W, looks like you’ve got a bite
Yeah, I checked the list, and it is actually my turn (which has come around suspiciously quickly if you ask me) hey ho.
Science, logic and rational thought have got us this far …
I always thought it was opposable thumbs, a larger brain than the competition and a dose of deviousness with a dash of being a massive dick to every other species.
In the sense that any of it is meaningful. A sense of oneness with the universe is certainly something I’ve had on LSD. Special vibes from flowers, too.
Were they ‘spiritual’ experiences or just fun hallucinations of no greater weight than enjoying a fairground ride?
Perhaps we need to define what the word ‘spiritual’ actually means.
**** me it's STW Groundhog Day, where Mr W needs to massage his ego, or something.
Do you fap to these discussions MR W?
Were they ‘spiritual’ experiences or just fun hallucinations of no greater weight than enjoying a fairground ride?
You tell me, what did you feel? What you can't do is tell how anyone else feels and whether they are having spiritual experiences.
After a quick google, I found this:
Did you read it?
Have a read Deep History and the Brain?
Perhaps it’s hereditary...
Very salutary. How about dream catchers and a feeling of one-ness with the universe or getting a ‘special vibe’ from a pot of daffodils?
I’m not sure dream-catchers are consistent with an Eastern concept of ‘one-ness with the universe’, but if that’s what floats one’s boat... Far be it from me to wee on somebody’s barbecue. I do get a certain amount of pleasure out of seeing daffs glowing in early spring sunshine, I guess that might be called a ‘vibe’, I don’t know. What I do find really annoying is the recent habit of visitors to ancient Neolithic sites covering trees with all sorts of nasty plastic tat, ribbons, dream-catchers, bits of coloured string, etc., and it looks bloody awful. They also put candles onto standing stones, and inside burial chambers, which covers the stone with melted paraffin wax and greasy black smoke stains, in some sort of ersatz paganism, and all it does is damage the stone and visually pollute the whole place. My own belief is pantheistic humanism, I don’t give a toss what anyone else believes in, providing they don’t force it on others, or desecrate, ancient monuments which have survived five millennia without being spoilt by plastic crap.
When it became obvious that I viewed the term with a smattering of risibility, He became unhappy
Just for the record, I wasn’t rude...He wasn’t that upset.
I suspect that you may be full of shit. I don’t mean that in an impolite way obviously, so if you take offence at this I’ll assume it’s down to your own character flaws.
I find myself, yet again, in agreement with Mr Woppit. There are plenty of times when I find myself in awe of the universe and think "hmm, there might be something more than my evidence-based standpoint can explain". And I love those moments, whether it's hugging a new born grandchild, that moment near the end of a cold rainy ride when the setting sun breaks through the clouds or the feeling of windsurfing on big Atlantic swell in the trade winds, knowing that you're intruding on something that's been going round the planet undisturbed for millions of years.
But when you go to the crusty end of a festival where the zen massage and crystal chakras live, you can be forgiven for thinking it's all bollocks.
cyclesouthwest... much as I admire the late Hitch and his work, including that book, it’s ‘spirituality’ I’m discussing, not ‘religion’...
Any takers on the link between ‘spiritualty’ and mental illness? IS there a link? The psychologists seem to think so.
I'm probably going to regret wading into this, but I do find this an interesting thread.
It appears to me that the modern idea of sprituality or "being spiritual" seems to involve cherry-picking a number of the nicer ideas from some religions and ignoring the more nuanced, complicated or just plain inconvenient ones.
This could very easily become "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law".
Sprituality is your own journey, of course, but religion provides context and a moral compass.
Would it be possible to be religious without necessarily being spiritual?
I don’t think one should be given any special privilege over the other (and on a point of note, Woppit’s own beliefs are no more or less worthy than Mr Spiritual’s, worth remembering when you’re lining up to take him to task).
Either way round it's one of those subjects that can be a real pain in the arse when one end won't drop it.
How about dream catchers and a feeling of one-ness with the universe or getting a ‘special vibe’ from a pot of daffodils?
Dream catchers ??? Fairly harmless.... kid has one he bought with spending money on holiday at a hippy market... As I tell him, no of course it doesn't DO anything ... but so what.
One-ness with the universe .... well we are... we are all made of the same shit.
Special Vibes from a pot of daffodils ??? Sure brings back thoughts of Buttermere via Wordsworth... and a young lady I made acquaintance with many years ago 😀 and that makes me think of Thackery ... and hence to Pocohantis and Longfellow and I'm back at dream catchers.
Someone pass the joint please.....
As someone who experiences clinical depression - I’ve been mentally ill. I’ve not been described as ‘spiritual’ yet though - so the reverse isn’t yet proven... Hope that helps OP.
I do share the hearty dislike of dumping new-age related stuff everywhere though. It’s as bad as dog poo in bags hanging on trees IMHO.
But when you go to the crusty end of a festival where the zen massage and crystal chakras live, you can be forgiven for thinking it’s all bollocks.
All you have to do is pay a visit to Glastonbury* and look at the shops!
*That’s the town, not the festival at Pilton. And yes, I die a little inside every time I go there. Every other shop that isn’t a charity shop is selling crystals, or some other form of new age tat.
Any takers on the link between ‘spiritualty’ and mental illness? IS there a link? The psychologists seem to think so.
Well that was why I asked if you read the article because I left with the impression psychologists didn't believe that spirituality was a cause of mental health problems. More that people with mental health problems were more likely to take an interest in spirituality as a potential way to help themselves. More likely than say, happy consumers worshipping in the church of capitalism.
I find Shamanism interesting, this type of thing. Would be interesting to know what is really going on there. See also John Forbes Nash, I've only watched the movie about him, so don't know if he had any spiritual beliefs or not.