Speeding (possibly) - Am I in the clear?

Who knows if it's been dropped.... maybe. But I suspect if it does go to court then you'd be on a hiding to nothing as i doubt they'd change their minds... but, again, who knows!

a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either—

(i)is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or
(ii)satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely—
(a)the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;
(b)the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver's seat must—
(i)be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and
(ii)be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and
(c)the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle

They are right. You do need the windows in the rear door I think.

I believe they need to start proceedings within 6 months. I'm not sure when the clock starts though. From the date of the incident or the date you decline the FP offer.

Pepipoo is probably the place to ask.

Who knows? Maybe the police reported it and it is sitting in a backlog at the prosecutor's office.

Would I think it was a good use of court time fighting a case for someone doing 70mph? Nope. Hopefully it is either being dropped or has sat in a pile somewhere too long.

I suspect it's just gone onto a pile of things and they'll decide at some point whether it's worth pursuing. I'd have thought they would let you know if they plan to drop the fine.

I think that they have 6 months to issue a summons
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/3/made see the definition of a DPV, "...on each side and at the rear..."
Side and rear seem to be distinct
Slower than irc and Yak 🙂

I'd say no, IANAL.

Not in the clear yet.

The Police do not physically have to serve proceedings within 6 months of the offence. Their obligation is to lodge sufficient information with the Court so that the process can be started. Although steps to issue the Summons must be taken within 6 months, there is no requirement for a Defendant to receive it within that period of time. On the basis that the information is laid before the Court within 6 months, the Police are entitled to proceed and it may be that delays in processing paperwork or even obtaining a Court date can result in the Summons being received after 6 months.

http://www.motorlawyers.co.uk/court/summons.php

Thanks for the replies so far.

I suspect you're all correct that they won't accept that the windows in the rear sliding doors count as rear windows, but I'd have be happy to go to court to point out the nonsense that having a window I can't see through would make the vehicle safe to travel at higher speeds.

But surely there's a time limit on this!? Or should I still expect a court summons in the post!?

I expect that the 6 month rule could be ignored 'due to an unprecedented backlog due to COVID'

[i]I’d say no, I ANAL.[/i]

I understand why you would say no but why add the extra detail?

You might've gotten away with it, seems pretty obvious (to me!) though that if it's got a bulkhead, it's a van & not a car!!

Yeah, it's definitely not a car!

But then neither is a Tourneo mini bus, and van speed limits don't apply to one of those...

I suspect you’re all correct that they won’t accept that the windows in the rear sliding doors on the side count as rear windows

I'm confused as to why you would think that they would - the sliding doors are on the side, not the back!

The email I received from the police said the rear windows needed to be behind the driver, which they are.

Must admit it looks like a van to me. Even Ford describe it as a van. Basically a van with 2 rows of seats rather than one.

https://www.ford.co.uk/vans-and-pickups/transit-custom/double-cab-in-van

I'm okay with being in the wrong regarding my interpretation of the rules, but I'd also like to know where I stand within a reasonable timeframe!

But then neither is a Tourneo mini bus, and van speed limits don’t apply to one of those

I suspect you’re all correct that they won’t accept that the windows in the rear sliding doors count as rear windows, but I’d have be happy to go to court to point out the nonsense that having a window I can’t see through would make the vehicle safe to travel at higher speeds.

The definition is windows to the sides AND rear. Windows in the sliding doors meet the requirements for the sides but will not be considered the window to the rear.

It's also nothing about safety to travel at higher speeds it's about the definition of a van. You have a van you have defined speed limits to comply with. You took your chance, got pinged, can't see any defence really.

You could try retrofitting a window in the rear door to allow you to comply with the definitions I suppose.

If it was a dual purpose vehicle it would be classified as such on the V5 and you wouldn't have received the NIP in the first place.

What's the different between N1 and M1 vehicle classification? | Ask Honest John | Honest John

I was basing my interpretation on this article in Auto Express;

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/vans/99605/uk-van-speed-limits-all-you-need-to-know

"Crew vans with side windows, a row of seats behind the driver and a load area behind that will also qualify as dual-purpose in many cases, but the exact definition is complicated and there have been reports of confusion where combi or crew van speed limits are concerned."

But as above, looks like I'm in the wrong here.

Edit; don't have access to the V5 as it's a lease vehicle provided by my employer

Transit DCiV is registered as an N1 class vehicle so a light commercial and therefore lower speed limits.

Tourneo Customs are registered as M1 MPVs so higher speed limits.

Sticking to your arguements will get you a spanking in court if you get a summons.

It's the actual registration class not your interpretaions on the class descriptions that matter and it's your responsibility to know what class of vehicle you are driving.

A spanking in court sounds quite medieval, but they still can't give me any more than 3 points, which is the bit I'm most concerned about.

As stated above, it depends on what the vehicle is classified as on the V5. M1 & N1 is the difference that you are arguing. The presence or not of windows and their location is moot.

No, it doesn’t make sense, but that’s what it is.

If you do end up in court the fine is going to be more than if you’d paid the FPN.

No, but they can probably up the fine to thank you for wasting their time!

...they still can’t give me any more than 3 points, which is the bit I’m most concerned about

Up to 6pp if you appeared in court + fine + costs.

Is the road tax £290 a year? Is it over 2.0t gross vehicle weight? Is it N1 on the logbook? Then it's a van, you need to be mindful of the lower speed limits, 60MPH on a dual carriageway not 70, 50MPH on a single carriagway not 60. Cheap company car tax though, so there are some advantages.

As stated above, it depends on what the vehicle is classified as on the V5

I think this is all that matters in determining your speed limits.

M1 and N1 is more to do with type approval than vehicle class
EDIT https://www.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/vehicle-type-approval/classification-of-power-driven-vehicles-and-trailers/

As far as I can see, it meets the criteria for a Dual Purpose Vehicle

might meet the criteria, but if its not registered thus, its moot anyway.
The rules define how it MAY be registered, but the limits are applied to how it IS registered?

They dont make it easy though.

I bought a minibus, so my speed limit is NSL: YAY
....however having more than 8 seats, it has to be physically limited to 62: BOOOO
...so i removed the seats, and could legally get the limiter removed: YAYYY.
...Except now its a PLGV with windows, so im back to a 60 limit: FFS!

Still its much more comortable on cruise at 65, with the ability to push it up to 80 briefly to get past lorries, than it is stuck at 62.

Thanks all.

As above, I've got no idea what it says on the V5 as I don't have one, and I've got no idea what the road tax is as I don't pay it.

I'm clearly in the wrong here as I've stated 3 times now. I've misinterpreted the rules and taken that Auto Express article on face value.

Now to find a rear door with a window in it...

I think it's how it's classified as others have said. Even if it meets the criteria, if it hasn't been changed on the V5 then I think you're scuppered. My colossal, extra long wheelbase Iveco Daily is legally allowed to rattle down single carriageway A roads at 70, but only because it was tested and reclassified.

There was a thread, maybe 6 or 9 months ago, on this topic, and somebody was saying that the registration class isn't definitive, it's the physical attributes of the vehicle. They had asked DVLA to change the registered category to match the vehicle attributes, DVLA had declined and said it wasn't for them to decide which speed limits apply.

Our T5 "combi" thing meets the criteria but is classified as having to comply with the lower limits. Previous incarnation of the same van (same seats and windows etc) was classified the other way, apparently. So, as above, I don't think those criteria are set out for the owner to interpret, they're just (presumably not all of) the criteria by which the powers that be have decided which class that model of van goes in.

...is legally allowed to rattle down single carriageway A roads at 70, but only because it was tested and reclassified.

Are you sure?

My colossal, extra long wheelbase Iveco Daily is legally allowed to rattle down single carriageway A roads at 70

Really?!

No it isn't. Limit on a single carriageway for regular vehicles is 60.

OP, can you request details from the lease company?

If it had a "tax disc" (remember them), it would say private car = NSL or PLG = reduced speed.

Its a nightmare grey area and the VIN in the windscreen and documents should tell if it's N1 or M1.

Cougar, yes if/when I receive a court summons then that sounds like sensible thing to do, although as per Greybeards comment I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the V5 classification isn't necessarily the end of the matter.

I suppose I could have worded my question better. Assuming I am in the wrong about it meeting the criteria for a DPV, it's been over 6 months since I requested a court hearing, and over 9 months since the offence. I've heard nothing since. I was beginning to hope that this had gone away and I could end my ritual of opening the letterbox with trepidation every day. It sounds like that was false hope based on the responses above, but has anyone got experience of waiting this long for what should be a fairly simple hearing to get scheduled?

I have a Transit Custom converted with rear seats & no bulkhead & twin sliding doors with windows, but I have heard on fb group someone in same position as you OP being told need windows in rear Tailgate to be able to get away with it, not just side windows & seats etc, I would argue like you & my V5 is N1 & 6 seats

They're coming for ya, and you're going down for a stretch in the slammer, no doubt big man. I'd start running now and not stop til you reach Mexico.

"“Category M1“: Vehicles used for the carriage of passengers and comprising not more than eight seats in addition to the driver’s seat."
Type approval class to sell into Europe with no mention of DPV status.

And if you really want to read it, it's in UN ECE document “Consolidated Resolution on the Construction of Vehicles (R.E.3) (Revision 6)” – ECE/TRANS/WP.29/78/Rev.6 – 11 July 2017

Now to find a rear door with a window in it…

I would be fairly certain Shirley, this wont change anything. Type approval is the be all and end all and the only thing that matters is what it was produced as, what approval it has and how its categorized. Thats on the V5 etc etc. What it looks like on the day is here nor there.

On a very lengthy VW T5 form post on this exact topic, someone went to court and because it was such a grey area the judge didn't / couldn't rule on it. I think all current T5's are N1 now too (happy to be corrected here)...

Did the van have " Mystery Machine" on the side.? If so you can argue it was those pesky kids.

Rickmeister, that comment was supposed to be tongue in cheek. I've already sent the police a photo of the back doors showing no windows. But they asked for this, with the implication being that if it had windows the FPN would be dropped, which makes me think maybe what it says on the V5 isn't necessarily everything.

"Thank you for sending over these details. Unfortunately without rear windows in the back doors the vehicle would still be classed as an LGV, these must be present to be classed otherwise."

is what they said

My unmodified van is “Category N1“: Vehicles used for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3.5 tonnes.
I can drive (legally) at car speed limits, but you wouldn't know that from "N1"
The key is the Body Type (section D5 on the V5), which is Car-Derived Van.
For the purposes of this thread you need to comply either with the CDV or DPV definition. M1/N1 isn't the whole story

OP - I've found that both police and driving examiner didn't know law on specific points around licensing. I did having looked into it for work. At first I was refused a driving test in one incident, and in another was told I was ineligible to sit with learner driver and would be prosecuted. Thankfully the police at side of road and the examiner had the patience to hear me out, read a link to DVLA and call a colleague.
It's worth as you are doing seeing what a court makes of it.

Dpv isn't on the V5 (I have that in writing from DVLA).

Your vehicle just needs to conform, but you may have to go to court (I have that in writing from DVSA).

Your vehicle without rear door windows that light the rear seat does not not conform (my Dispatch has rear door windows and a bulkhead window so does conform).

Most DPVs in this discussion will be N1 (as if they are M1 you are on car speed limits anyway).

Thanks mick_r

As I've said quite a few times now, I can see that the vehicle doesn't quite meet meet the criteria (however much I'd like to think that anything I need to look over my shoulder to see is at the rear of the vehicle).

My question is, how long do need to be worried whenever I see the postman?

What's the longest anyone has waited (or heard about waiting) for a hearing?

Surely there's a timeframe within which they need to respond!?

I have frequented many Ford and VW forums over the years and owned several Dciv Transit Customs.
Apart from your usual freeman of the land and common law fruitcakes , everyone has accepted they are commercial vehicles and therefore lower speed limits apply on single and dual carriageways.
I have bought the heavy duty versions so they are capable of carrying a ton to comply with the taxman requirements to be able to claim back the VAT. BIK is also set at something like £55 a month for a 20% tax payer and £110 for 40 % payer. This is because it is classed as a commercial vehicle, i.e N1, separate load area with a bulkhead as standard etc.

Whenever Dual Cab Dave has been challenged on a forum to show the paperwork prove they got let off, they go quiet and you don't see any further posts......until the question comes up again of course 🙂

Surely there’s a timeframe within which they need to respond!?

I expect Covid excuses trump any standard timeframes 😉

My question is, how long do need to be worried whenever I see the postman?

I absolutely follow your logic, but if I were in your position, there's no point worrying, whatever is going to happen is going to happen. Unless there's something you can do to change it, so the question I'd be asking is "Is there anything I can/should do ?"

Flee the country!?

fwiw I cover around 50,000 miles a year for work on top of other stuff and absolutely couldn't do my job without driving so I'm very motivated to keep these points off my licence!

edit, I know the obvious response to this is "don't speed", which is correct. But my understanding at the time was that I was driving within the speed limit, and since receiving the NIP I've been sticking to the van limits.

The timeframe doesn't include putting it in your hands. Ring the appropriate police and ask what's happening

And yet my Swb T5 with N1 taxation class, no rear seats and no windows in the back still qualifies as a DPV. Why? Because it is under 2040 kg unladen weight and is capable of having drive to all 4 wheels (4 motion)

The whole shitshow really needs sorting out to be fair. Something along the lines of all vehicles up to 5 tonnes Gross Vehicle Weight have the same limits. 50 on single carriageway roads. 60 on Dual carriageway s and 70 on motorways.

Whenever Dual Cab Dave has been challenged on a forum to show the paperwork prove they got let off, they go quiet and you don’t see any further posts

I got let off a speeding ticket in my crewcab Vivaro, but I'm quite willing to accept it was the plod's mistake (or just being nice because I was so charming) ... and I'm certainly not going looking for paperwork.

The whole shitshow really needs sorting out to be fair. Something along the lines of all vehicles up to 5 tonnes Gross Vehicle Weight have the same limits.

That's a very good point. There are too many unnecessarily complicated laws that just take up the time of courts, agencies like DVLA and people running businesses. It's wasted effort and all damages the economy and adds to living costs directly or indirectly.

This whole 60 limit for vans is a total farce and needs to disappear. It really is very silly.

There was a thread, maybe 6 or 9 months ago, on this topic, and somebody was saying that the registration class isn’t definitive, it’s the physical attributes of the vehicle. They had asked DVLA to change the registered category to match the vehicle attributes, DVLA had declined and said it wasn’t for them to decide which speed limits apply.

There was, it related to converted vans to camper vans. That particular argumetathon cost me a donation to charity, so I'm stopping well out of this one! 😁

This whole 60 limit for vans is a total farce and needs to disappear. It really is very silly.

For the sake of reduced pollution, it'd be better if it was reduced to 60 for everyone, not increased for vans, but yes, it's a bloody confusing mess that needs clearing up!

for 70 in a 60 I'd be surprised if a speed awareness course wasn't offered. It might be worth giving them a ring to check nothing has been lost in the post and you'vre due at court without knowing it

I looked into the DCIV speed limits thing - extensively - as I own a Transit Custom DCIV.

Technically yes, some DCIVs meet all dual-purpose vehicle criteria and the 'normal' car speed limits rather than the lower van limits, but it's always going to be a PITA proving that. The only thing lacking - same as OP - is the rear window (I've got an unglazed tailgate) and could have a window installed for £300ish, but I can't be arsed with the potential hassle. It's a PITA not being legally able to drive faster than 60mph anywhere north of Perth, but a bigger PITA if I wanted to challenge a speeding ticket.

The topic comes up on the Transit Custom Onwers FB group regularly. Same outcome so far.

It’s a PITA not being legally able to drive faster than 60mph anywhere north of Perth

on the plus side , with the cost of fuel these days at lease you will get better consumption figures 😉