[Closed] Sourdough sticking to tea towel on final rise... any suggestions?

Need more info re % water in dough,and kneading/folding technique.

Use ground rice instead of flour. It doesn't absorb water the same.

I’m gonna blame the tea towel.

I’ve just been making pizza dough today (cos singletrack), one batch stuck to the tea towel, one didn’t. The sticky one was one of those crappy modern probably more polyester than cotton types with a print on. The good one was a thick open weave with lots of texture. No problem. That’s my pizza towel now.

375ml water to 500g flour. Most recent loaf was 85g whole meal spelt, the rest white. Stuck worse than the all white loaf, and there was less water! (Misread recipe for first loaf).

tea towel type-interesting, I had wondered that. I used a decent one, the thicker type with checks that does a good job of drying dishes. I wondered if I need to use a thin type.

Rice flour, thanks for tip!

Ref Kneading / folding, am folding it, 8 times Total, once every ten mins.

hmmm 375g water is quite high hydration so will be a bit stickier.

i use an elasticated shower cap, and the dough doesnt come higher than the top of the bowl anyway, so no chance of sticking. it looks like youre talking about the final rise, so plenty of flour on the top should still see you ok?

Bannetons.

Linen towel if you use one. And bannetons

Yeah, just use Bannetons*. I had issues with sticking to tea towels too - sourdough is a very wet dough so if you use normal SWBF to flour the tea towel, the moisture eventually works its way through. While you’re waiting for your Bannetons to arrive, try flouring with something coarser - polenta, rye flour or wholemeal flour will help. And use plenty. Have a brush ready as you turn it out to brush off the excess as it just burns in the oven.

*bannetons can be used without a linen cloth if you use enough flour - just a bit of a faff to clean them - though I’ll probably use them for a few ORs before cleaning. Definitely worth a few quid. This provided to make up for Nobeer and igm’s lazy arsed posts.

Rice flour, bannetons will stick with ordinary flour.

Not lazy arsed - just too busy eating delicious bread. 😉

(actually it’s dark chocolate brownies tonight)

Been thinking of getting a banneton. But also can sense I am getting slightly obsessed with sourdough perfection.... And getting a banneton will be further evidence that I am 😄 which is why I’m trying to make the bowl/tea towel thing work. Not entirely rational I know.

oh, sorry i think ive misunderstood. youre lining a bowl with a teatowel? why? if you dont have a banneton, why not just leave the dough in the bowl with no teatowel?

i was thinking you meant the teatowel was over the top of the bowl, my apologies.

Sadex punk yes I am. I was going to ask if you weren’t lining a bowl with tea towel for sourdough! That’s what the recipe says , but I have been wondering why. If I don’t line it the dough won’t stick to it is what I realised, but thought that the tea towel lining must play a vital part? 😀

no i cant see why it would be an essential requirement.

you get linen cloths included with bannetons, ive used them before, but also had them ruined by sticky dough (overproved), so now i just prove in the bare banneton, as do a lot of bakers, just chuck a load of polenta/rice flour/semolina in there first. horses for courses 🙂

EDIT: you also get those cool looking ridges if you just use the 'naked' banneton 🙂

EDIT: you also get those cool looking ridges if you just use the ‘naked’ banneton

Indeed 😌

sticky dough = overproved? Does that mean over risen and if so how do I know what is just right risen....? Recipe I’m using now-Paul Hollywood- says it’s risen enough after 4 hours or when your finger leaves an indent in the dough.

I just use decent linen tea towels in cheap wicker baskets... I did look at buying some bannetons but nearly fell off the chair at the price! I'll live without the ridges on my bread!

Just make sure the everything is well floured before putting the dough in for it's final rise...

I usually use wholemeal flour for the dusting, which was a suggestion from one of the many bread books I own.

Scotlandthebread bannetons are made of the same stuff as egg boxes, compressed fibre, no need for a cloth, and no need to wash, just brush the flour off.

yes, if left too long it becomes unworkable and loses its strength, itll just be a gloopy mess. you can try and rescue it by kneading it again and letting it prove again, or just 'pour' into a pot and bake, you may get a half-decent loaf still.

i wouldnt use a set time, id try and look for signs in your dough, the timing can vary wildly depending on temperature.

as a rough rule of thumb, give the dough a prod 🙂

underproved (so needs longer) - the dough will pop back quickly
overproved - the dough stays where it is with an indent and doesnt spring back
just right - dough pops back slowly and still leaves a slight indentation.

hope that helps 🙂

EDIT: this link may be useful to you

Do you wash the tea towel? When I used to do it a lot I would always just use the same towel which only occasionally got washed

That's quite a high hydration too, I usually go about 310 to 320 of water to 500 of flour.

Great link sadex punk, thank you. I’ll look again at buying a banneton, the ones I’ve seen are only about a tenner. Makes me wonder what the very expensive ones mentioned above are?!

Lowering the hydration a bit makes everything much easier when you're starting out. That 4 hour figure depends on lots of factors also. I'm finding more like 5-6 hours in total usually at the mo.
As sadexpunk said the poke test is the best way, takes a bit of getting used to what is meant exactly by slow or fast. There's a guy called The Bread Code on YouTube he has some great tips and examples

Naked banneton is good if you are using ambient method, the cloth comes in handy if doing the final proof in the fridge overnight. Stoneground rye or semolina flour works for me, can never seem to find rice flour.

Do you wash the tea towel?

Do not wash it, but make sure it properly dries out between uses. Doesn't matter if it's a bit stiff and crusty, it'll make the loaf easier to tip out.

A shower cap works well on the top of your basket (or bowl) if you want to stop a skin forming

Temperature makes a huge difference.

A weekend or so ago it was roasting here and I had to add a bit extra flour to control the dough.
Now it’s cooler, not so much.

Thanks for the help everyone. I will add less water next time. I had to wash the tea towel after the last loaf, there was so much dough stuck to it. It must have been overprooved I think, in light of advice above. I’m also going to get a banneton. I’m finding it a very addictive process!

I’m finding it a very addictive process!

i think we all know the feeling. ive just done a search for our sourdough threads for you, theres been a few just lately with plenty of good advice given.

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/anyone-here-make-sourdough/

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/sourdough-recipes/

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/sourdough-starter/

and also a sourdough specific forum on 'the fresh loaf' website.....
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/forums/general-discussion-and-recipe-exchange/sourdough-and-starters

thatll keep you busy a while 😀

Sourdough balls taken out the freezer last night for tonight's pizza, left them in fridge overnight, seem a bit flat this morning, hmmmm....

I'll give em a few folds, see how they turn out. I froze them after 3rd fold, if they don't work, I'll just go back to yeast based pizza.

You could try what I managed to do last night. Dough resting in tea towel (shipping forecast areas one bought for me by Mrs Tyred many years ago) liberally floured and sitting in banneton in the oven, small amount of residual warmth from cooking dinner earlier. Switched oven on about half 10 so bread can go in by 11. Guess what I forgot to do first. 20 mins later, what's that smell?

Or maybe don't try that! What a fud.

375ml water to 500g

That’s way too much water you want about 300ml for 500g.

It's not too much water if you want the super open crumb bubbly hipster sourdough, they are often made with 80% hydration.

It's tricky to get everything right with such high hydration dough though, especially building enough strength that it doesn't just go splat when you score/bake it. I'm still working on that.

60-70% hydration is a lot easier to manage/shape.

Sourdough balls taken out the freezer last night for tonight’s pizza, left them in fridge overnight, seem a bit flat this morning, hmmmm….

I’ll give em a few folds, see how they turn out. I froze them after 3rd fold, if they don’t work, I’ll just go back to yeast based pizza.

see i dont worry too much about how much sourdough rises for pizzas, as theyre flat anyway 😀 much more important for a loaf, not so much for pizzas, id guess theyll still turn out great.
got 16 pizzas to make later for a birthday party (new pizza oven wahaaaay), wimped out of using sourdough tho as too many variables, but ill give them a bash again when its just me and the missus.

375ml water to 500g

That’s way too much water you want about 300ml for 500g.

That’s what the recipe said, am now following a sourdough pizza base recipe, excess starter 😆, and that also said same ratio. I’ve made it dryer however.

I can stop at any time. I have lots of yeast in the cupboard... 😁

Thanks for those links sadex punk 😊

Re dough sticking - have you tried slowing the process down by proving overnight in the fridge?
The dough still rises but just takes longer and develops a better structure and taste supposedly. Yes lots of flour on linen clothes and never wash.

Re pizza dough balls - I used to roll my pizza bases then freeze them stacked between paper. That way you can take one out add toppings and chuck in the oven without defrosting.

as drac says, 300g is about right, especially if youre just starting out. if you then want to make more hydrated dough, its worth trying each subsequent loaf with maybe 10g more water each time, get a feel for whats too wet or not. there are more specialised techniques involved with high hydration, coil folds, french folds, rubaud method etc. ive not baked a good loaf with high hydration yet, usually end up with a splat 😀 best loaves have always been around the 300g water mark.

out of interest, which recipe is it? also seems high for pizza dough too, what recipe is that one also? just curious 🙂

This works really well for me for sourdough pizza

https://foodgeek.dk/en/sourdough-pizza-recipe/

bread is this one

Paul Hollywood sourdough

Pizza this one

Sourdough pizza

The first sourdough I attempted was an Aussie recipe that called for a levaint.... took me 48 hours start to finish, I used too much wholemeal and it wasn’t worth those 2 days 😆

I used to do other stuff at weekends I'm sure, now it's all about the dough. Pizza based came out of the fridge this morning and just about to kick off the loaf process which will conclude tomorrow morning with the actual bake. Time consuming, but I've had lots of time to be consumed by it recently!

I ruined a banneton with a wet dough, it just went mouldy in the end 🙁

I used to do other stuff at weekends I’m sure, now it’s all about the dough

😆 indeed. I am just about to squeeze in a bike ride 😂

I haven’t tried the overnight fridge rise yet for bread. Probably about to do that with my pizza dough as I don’t need it til tomorrow.

I’m using variants of Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall’s Guardian recipe from a year or two ago - it’s on line

Here’s my notes

For the sponge - midday ish
About 150ml active starter (see recipe above)
250g strong flour (white, wholemeal or a mixture of the two)
275ml warm water

For the loaf - evening
300g strong bread flour (white, wholemeal or a mixture), plus more for dusting
1 tbsp rapeseed or olive oil
10g fine sea salt

Rising overnight in fridge

Prove from first thing 1.5-3 hours

Bake as normal - hot as it’ll go for 10-12 minutes then 35-40 minutes at 180C

^The Hugh FW recipe is the one I use. I've found it works better with the following modifications:

Feed the starter the night before
Make the sponge first thing the next morning
Use 300ml water not 275ml
Make the loaf and kneed early afternoon
Shape and prove overnight in the fridge
Give it an hour or two the next morning at room temperature then bake.

MrSmith
Member

Rice flour, bannetons will stick with ordinary flour

This was a top tip. 👍 I had a bag of rice flour lying around not doing much so tried it. Not even the slightest sticking and even better, I didn’t have a shed load of flour to brush off - it all stayed in the banneton.

It’s because rice flour doesn’t absorb water.

I’m only on my 4th loaf and was doing ok until no3 that had a cheddar gorge sized cave inside, decided to do everything by eye/ feel and bulk fermented for longer and more stretch/folding and rest before retarding in the fridge overnight. Took phone pics so I could gauge changes in appearance and size as I went along , turned out a right banger that held its shape and baked my best loaf yet with great structure.
A recipe is never going to help you with temperature changes and differences in flour.

Ended up having a few beers, forgot about the half hourly turns, left in the first prove for about 7 hours. Baked this morning and the loaf seems fine!

Pizza dough though, I forgot the salt, the dough was sticky and undeveloped it kept tearing and was a bugger to move, it made pizzas in the end, but they weren't as food as last week's.

Pizza dough though, I forgot the salt, the dough was sticky and undeveloped it kept tearing and was a bugger to move, it made pizzas in the end, but they weren’t as food as last week’s.

Apart from the salt, that was exactly my experience from yesterday's pizza! Think I'll stick to the standard yeast version.

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76% hydration, strong white/heritage white/wholemeal rye

Looks good grum! 😊

Ref pizza Base sticking and being immovable, the recipe I’m following for sourdough pizza Suggests stretching the dough out onto baking paper and then moving the whole thing onto a pre heated baking tray. I can imagine that otherwise, the base would be an absolute bugger to get into the oven. It’s for dinner later so I’ll know soon enough whether to stick to yeasted pizza dough 😆

Banneton ordered.

Ref pizza Base sticking and being immovable, the recipe I’m following for sourdough pizza Suggests stretching the dough out onto baking paper and then moving the whole thing onto a pre heated baking tray. I can imagine that otherwise, the base would be an absolute bugger to get into the oven. It’s for dinner later so I’ll know soon enough whether to stick to yeasted pizza dough 😆

It's usually not an issue moving it around, this was just ridiculously wet, I think it was over proved due to it being proved on a very hot day. Never sticks to a pizza stone btw, and usually never sticks to peel either, due to me using a bit of semolina.