[Closed] Sourdough starter?

I made a sourdough yesterday following the BBC Paul Hollywood recipe. Came out well but a bit more like a French Boule (soft white, fluffy inside) than a chewy centre with lots of bubbles in it. Whats gone wrong? Is this over or under poveing???

Also, Im trying again today using the bread maker to do the mix / kneed / first prove. The recipe for the breadmaker (panasonic) says its just goes into the oven and no knock back or second prove?? Can this be correct?

eh up Jimmy…. have you given your starter a name yet……?

Oh, now then. Naming duties are given to my 4yo daughter these days. I'll see what she comes up with.

Next batch of what was supposed to be baguettes turned out super wet and unmanageable for me, so I put them in a loaf tin and turned out ciabatta!

Minute steak, gouda, fried onions...

Got a family request for pizza tomorrow evening.

^^ that looks ace!

It was Blackflag and then my wife came and stole half of it LOL!

New to the whole sourdough thing - though have been making yeast bread for yonks. My first attempts at a starter all failed horribly so I ended up buying one, feeding it for a week. Seem to have nailed the timings around the working day now too

My 2nd batch from yesterday am;

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I used the method as outlined by this chap; his no-knead 'beginner' soughdough Joshua Weissman

That last loaf looks great @sadexpunk. I know what you're getting at with the crumb, but it looks really well risen, and as @nobeerinthefridge said a couple of pages ago, a really open airy crumb looks great but a bit of a denser texture is more practical.

Re. stretching and folding regimes, I'm not no expert, but I can tell you what's worked for me. I started with the basic sourdough recipe from theperfectloaf.com, which calls for 3 sets of stretches, at half hour intervals after you've mixed the dough. I've always tried to stick roughly to that, but I'm really forgetful and I've left it for a couple of hours and then stretched and folded, or just completely forgotten to do any stretching at all, and it's not been disastrous by any means. With conventional bread you do all the kneading at once before it rises, so I would say if your schedule of a couple of hours between folds isn't convenient, just shorten it. I don't see any reason why you couldn't retard it in the fridge (or just at room temp really) for a bit til your ready either.

Made a couple of loaves with the wholemeal flour my friend gave me. I've been experimenting with longer fermentation and prove times since I have the flexibility being at home. Rather than just sticking to my schedule, I've let the dough sit until it's filled the bowl I mix/ferment in, and then in the fridge til it's brimming out the top of the loaf tin. Got some nicely risen loaves this way. This looks a bit dense though - to be expected with wholemeal (this was 33% I think) but going to try a higher hydration because it seemed quite dry.

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Starter fed for a wee folding session tomorrow. 👌🏻

ive done a few folds since teatime but im a bit pissed now so have decided to chill the bread in the fridge overnight rather thn bake tonight.....
ill stick it in the oven in the morning if it hasnt overproved by then and become a big sticky mess. its certainly been a fair old while since i started it, im hoping the fridge is my friend when it comes to bread.....

turned out nice.....pleased with that. ill let it cool down for a few hours, hope the inside is just as good.

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Looks good buddy, enjoy!.

ive done a few folds since teatime but im a bit pissed now so have decided to chill the bread in the fridge overnight rather thn bake tonight…..

You've got familiar enough with the vagaries of your yeast cultures that it works for you now, rather than the other way round. Welcome to the next level 😉

Well impressed with some of these! I changed to the bake with jack stretchy method, as I was not having success kneading it like the recipe on Hobbs bakery. Much much better. Second attempt today, I’ve even got the scalpel and a fresh blade out for the slash. Excited!

hope the inside is just as good.

well its certainly passable, tastes very nice indeed, and not so much of that 'crumpety-like' texture this time. crunchy crust and chewy, just how i like it.

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@sadexpunk that looks lovely and a perfect vessel for transporting vast quantities of butter and cheese 😋. I’ve 2 to go in the oven this morning after a cold prove for 17 odd hours...will report back later.

Baked my first loaf this morning.
A bit flatter than I'd like (slumped when it came out of the basket probably due to poor shaping) but tastes great not dense and the crust is amazing.

Second loaf looked worse and has been reshaped and is rising again in a pyrex dish this time - I'll bake that later this morning.
Going to check out the bake with Jack videos.

The Ciabatta I made yesterday disappeared when I went for a ride and I'm expecting the same fate for the sourdough 🤦🏻‍♂️

Made a mess of slashing one

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I've made 5 or 6 loaves now. However, three of them have been pizzas. I'm happy with the starter, folding goes alright and the dough rises loveley. The only time I've really had a loaf is when I baked in a tin. Any tips for keeping the dough in shape?

Proving in the fridge overnight in banetons works for me.

@eulach if you have a casserole dish, bake in that. First 20 minutes with the lid on, then last phase without. Keeps shape and you get more moisture in the dough after.

I managed a 50% campillou, 50% white today that came out really well. It's perhaps a little overhydrated, but it'll toast perfectly and the crust is chewy and lovely!

I have a casserole that I inherited from my Nan (gawd bless 'er) but it has no lid. I shall look into banetons or ebay for a 1970's pyrex lid. Thanks, chaps.

well im happier with my starter now, it seems that i can leave it in the fridge for a few days, then take it out of an evening, let it warm to room temp, feed it, and the 'scrapings' will ensure it doubles in size by morning.
a question on that if i may...... as i say, its pretty much doubled in size, so i use it. is there anything to look out for to show that its actually in decline? i was wondering about leaving it longer to see if it more than doubled, but was scared of 'losing the right moment' and it deflating.

latest loaf is just 'ok'. i was sure id scored it pretty deeply but it appears not.

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i use a DE razor blade. yes this time it seemed to 'pull' a bit as i cut through it, but it still seemed to go through. maybe i should ask 'which blade for cutting dough' on the DE shaving thread 😀

the moment of truth, cutting into it and hmmmm......not too sure. that 'crumpety' texture again and large holes. something in the back of my mind says 'overproving' for large holes, wotcha reckon?

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few more slices into it and it looks a little more regular....

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id been watching a few vids on higher hydration mixes, and i believe its 'wetter is better' is it not? better rise/oven spring etc?
so i mixed with 10g more water this time, i thought ill keep adding a bit more each mix til it becomes too wet to work with properly, what do you think?

also another consideration, this no-knead method. my first loaf had pockets where it obviously hadnt mixed properly, maybe too little time mixing, but.... it just made me wonder whether you do actually have to knead it in some way to get all the ingredients mixed together adequately, rather than just a shaggy mess where the flour may not be fully hydrated.
also the difference in appearance in the two pics ^^^ just a few slices apart.

again, interested in opinions on all my points please.

EDIT: appearance aside, it still tastes lovely which is the main thing, and the crust is chewy too.

something in the back of my mind says ‘overproving’ for large holes, wotcha reckon

Looks like you didn't knock it back after the final proving.

Looks like you didn’t knock it back after the final proving.

ive never followed a recipe yet that calls for it to be knocked back?

am i missing something? anyone else knock back their dough?

thanks

Looks like you didn’t knock it back after the final proving.

Sorry that should have said 'first proving' .... thanks phone!

If you don't knock it back (and add some extra olive oil) you'll end up with ciabatta.

I'm using the Paul Holywood book and you knock it back/repeatedly fold it for a couple of mins then let it prove a second time otherwise you end up with big air pockets.... like yours!

After first prove I shape and bench rest, knocks 'some' of the air out. I wouldn't knock it about too much. After second prove it's straight from the fridge into the hot casserole dish and over for me. I got some decent bubbles this time, nothing quite as extreme as your though @sadexpunk

this is the recipe im using, a series of stretch and folds.

what would you class as the 'first prove', and at what stage would you 'knock back' the mix here?
have to admit i get a bit confused with whats a prove and whats a fermentation.... 😀

I have only knocked back after first proving when I am not making a sourdough bread.

If I was doing normal "yeasted" bread I would knock it back after the first hour of proving and then prove for another hour before baking.

Sadexpunk's bread looks like a sourdough to me a much slower and longer process.
think you need to look at your structure building and get more tension in the outside of your dough Sadex.... but I may be wrong.

even the Beeb are getting in on the sourdough craze 🙂 ..... http://e.bbcgoodfood.com/q/1fv2Qx28M78ghPIaAOIl6F1/wv

Sadexpunk’s bread looks like a sourdough to me a much slower and longer process.
think you need to look at your structure building and get more tension in the outside of your dough Sadex…. but I may be wrong.

yes its sourdough. how would you work on the 'structure'? i follow the recipe pretty much to the letter and have the video playing too, so i can check i stretch, fold and shape the same way.....

thanks

Apologies, beginners’ question...

I did a starter last week and put the remainder of the starter in the fridge to sleep after making a loaf - I want to make one tomorrow so need to feed the starter I’ve taken out. Do I need to let it come to room temp before feeding it for use tomorrow or can I just feed now while it’s cold and let it do it’s thing? Or does it make any difference?

I’d Pull it out the fridge this evening at 9ish and feed it with flour and cold water and leave it on the counter then start the process in the morning.

Aye, that's what I do, fine to feed cold and then leave out for the night.

Cheers lads. Have done that.

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@sadexpunk

I got with the following:

Mix starter and water (a bit above room temp) leave to stand for 20 mins
Mix Flour and water/starter, hand mix for 3 minutes roughly to ensure it's all combined
Leave to stand for 30 mins (white flour) 60 mins (anything above a 50% white mix)
Add salt and extra water
Combine, then I go into the first 'prove' as I call it.
3.5-5 hours of turning and stretching every half an hour, storing the dough in the oven which is usually cooling from something baked earlier in the day. I find most receipes say 3 hours for this, but my house is colder, so it always takes a bit longer.

I then shape and leave on out for another 30 minutes (if it doesn't hold the edge and looks like a pancake, then re-shape and leave for another 30 mins) , before sticking it in a bowl and storing in the fridge overnight (12-14 hours)

Next morning I whack the oven on and put the casserole dish in, then bake, 20 mins lid on, 20 -25 lid off).

I read the Tartine book, about a guy with a stupidly successful bakery in SanFran his method has worked well for me so far.

With every loaf / batch. I'm learning. The last lot taught me;

- Leaving them longer in the fridge seems to enhance the flavour and doesn't seem to affect the structure. I usually bake first thing but had to wait until 5pm - so an added 10hours. Made zero difference to the rise but subjectively the bread has a stronger flavour.

- Shaping makes a far bigger difference than I thought. Paid much more attention this time to shaping and pulling tension into the loaves. Consequently, they were much less inclined to flatten out when being transferred to the cloche from the banneton (my luxury spend last month was a spun iron cloche from Netherton Foundry - worth every penny). I'm used to making yeast bread in tins so my first few attempts, whilst they had a decent crumb, tended to be more cow-pat shape than farmhouse loaf.

All a learning experience.

One of my Pizza stones cracked making sourdough, Either down to age failure, or maybe the steam when making sourdough.

I fancy a rectangular one, so that I can make a) bigger pizza and b) do 2 sourdoughs at once, side by side.

Any recommendations?.

@Nobeer you could try using swiss roll trays??

my 5th sourdough attempt.... just waiting on a few rashers of bacon to be cooked... must admit the flavour of the bread is improving...

First attempt at sourdough with wholemeal flour from Scotland the Bread. Looking forward to sampling once it’s cooled a bit

so good everyone!

My 5th try this weekend. so far i have found that the best results come with leaving the dough in the bathroom with the underfloor heating on. swedish kitchens appear to be a bit chilly.

Has anyone got and good recipes for sourdough muffins or something of similiar ilk?  I'veseen chocolate sourdough bread which must be tried at some point

One of my Pizza stones cracked making sourdough, Either down to age failure, or maybe the steam when making sourdough.

I fancy a rectangular one, so that I can make a) bigger pizza and b) do 2 sourdoughs at once, side by side.

Any recommendations?.

A guy I used to live with had a large flooring tile of some description he used as a pizza stone. I guess you would have to choose careful with regard to heat resistance/water content, but if you got it would probably be much cheaper than effectively the same thing sold specifically for baking. Sourdough scene tax, innit.

Third attempt for me using the starter I grew a few weeks ago. First was a bit of a brick. Think I got excited and overworked, then a bit too much knocking back. Tasted grand though.

Second was better, still could have done with a bit more air. Tasted better.

Third one was done after watching Jack’s videos on YouTube. I hardly kneaded, just stretched and folded a few times with a very wet dough. Was a bit of a nightmare without a proper scraper - I’m just using a spatula. Then a bit more flour for the second stretch and fold, a 2 hour prove, loaf formation with minimal handling, and into a round bowl overnight in the fridge. Baked this morning. Nice stretchy bread, enough air for me. Need to be braver with my scoring I think.

Scraper, scoring blades and proving basket arriving tomorrow. 😂

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Looks ace Ciaran, lovely sandwich crumb.

They all look great and tasty. I think I'm on to my 4th loaf now and it improves each time.

Managed to score some Dove Farm rye flour the other day at Tesco. Wow! The difference it made to my starters activity is massive.

Got a load of sough dough pizza dough in the fridge ready for pizza night tonight. Last weeks were good, but I got my self a bit stressed with it all and the oven/stone lost a lot of heat between pizzas so the first one was definitely the best. Going to make more of an evening of it this time instead of rushing to get them all done then eating.

looks a lovely, even crumb that, dd.

i also use the bake with jack method, but not having much success.
might be the starter, not sure. its pretty much all rye, fed it out of the fridge last night again and it wasnt til about 1pm til i was happy it had bubbled up and nearly doubled.

however..... it sinks in water still, so im not too hopeful of this loaf either.

sadexpunk, I didn’t know anything about jack’s stuff when I decided to make a starter. So I used this recipe from the Beeb. https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/sourdough_starter_22976

It uses some live natural yoghurt and skimmed milk to give it a helping hand at the beginning. It‘s very lively! Shortly after feeding it (a few hours), it’s bubbling right up but lives asleep in a jar in the fridge quite happily.

Never tried the 'see if it floats test'; that's far too scary, but it's risen every time so far. Bake with Jack stuff is good eh?

One little problem I noticed with mine was the centre of the bottom of the loaf was a bit undercooked. I followed jack’s advice and put a shed load of boiling water in a tray. Our oven is small and to have the loaf in the centre means the baking tray is quite close to the water so I’m guessing the steam is keeping the tray cooler meaning the bottom didn’t cook properly. Going to take a bit of thought - or probably an order for a stone or something...

I think the 'floats in water' test is a bit of a myth anyway, not something I'd worry about tbh.

Right second go this morning - wotcha think?

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How do you get the fancy pattern on top?

it's from the banetton

I have one of those arriving today. Do you flour the cloth and use that or just flour the banetton? No problems with sticking?

EDIT: looks grand by the way!!

Just flour the Banneton matey, they're great.

tried an experiment, failed dismally.....

fed my starter before bed, and at the same time tried an overnight 'autolyse', just flour/water/salt, and then in the morning added the starter. i mixed the starter in my using the rubaud method of kneading, a sort of scooping motion.
also shortened the time between slap/folds to 90 mins each to give a shorter fermentation time.
it didnt work 😀

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so..... back to basics. just baked a loaf using the usual method. i wondered if the gummy texture could be undercooking, even tho i leave it in longer than recipe the time, so this time when id usually take it out i kept leaving it in another 10 mins, another 5, another 5 until the crust was a fair bit darker. looks good.

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cutting into it, all i think the longer bake has done is make the crust a bit er....crustier. still lovely and chewy tho, but im just not sure about those holes.....

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wotcha reckon?

my 6th attempt... gave this one a longer cold ferment... the bread bloomed higher in the oven this time.... had to make some cherry scones to compliment the weight management... (that I can't control...LOL)
loaf was made with 200g starter, 360g water and 30g water with 10g salt, 400g strong white and 100g wholemeal....

Attempt number 4 for me - definitely looking more like a sourdough now. A few uneven foods here and there, but otherwise well pleased. Just about to bacon sandwich it up. Dough scraper made a hell of a difference working with jack’s sticky stretch and fold method. I do add a bit more flour for the s’n’f before overnight rise. The two loaves were nearly climbing out of the fridge this morning. They did flatten out a bit when I popped them on the baking tray. [url= https://i.postimg.cc/VNCvhL7L/D9-D7-F0-F5-2-C4-D-4-E4-A-93-CA-965-EEEF5-B0-EA.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/VNCvhL7L/D9-D7-F0-F5-2-C4-D-4-E4-A-93-CA-965-EEEF5-B0-EA.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://suwalls.com/abstract/thin-blue-lines ]thin blue line wallpaper[/url]

Some more good looking loaves on here. Two more in my oven as we speak, though I think I was a little impatient and maybe should have left them in the fridge til the morning (actually about 3am probably would have been optimum proving time, but I'm not that obsessed).

I've nearly finished the 16kg bag of white flour I was given about a month ago. Went to the cash and carry and bought another 16kg at the weekend, as well as 500 paper bags as I'm giving half the loaves away. Need to source some wholemeal though.

One question: does anyone have any tips on stopping bread sticking to whatever it's baked on? I'm baking too loaves at a time: one in a loaf tin, which it's also proved in, and one freeform on a flat baking tray, which is proved in another container. They've both got good non-stick coatings, and I'm flouring them heavily (though with the tin I suspect that's a bit pointless). Polenta/semolina seems to work better, but not perfectly, and that doesn't really work for the tin. With the tin, it's not stuck to the bottom/sides really - once the edges are prised off, it pops out. It's just difficult to do without breaking the crust and making a bit of a mess of it.

Parchment/greaseproof paper?

Might be worth a try for the freeform loaf, though I've used it before and it's soaked up the moisture and got stuck and it's harder to get off - think that would happen if I left it in the tin while that loaf proved.

Dunno about bread, but for the likes of banana loaf etc, my metal loaf runs lie unused, the silicon one is the one I reach for.

Pops out every time.

I use a non-stick baking tray as well thenorthwind. All mine have “stuck” but I just have one short sharp stab with a plastic blade-spatula type thing - and then it gives way. I’m not sure I’d be brave enough to try a tin. 😀

Pizza stone

To stop loaves sticking to trays or tins, grease with lard or Trex (white vegetable based fat).

Also, if a loaf is stuck in a tin (even after greasing), you can leave it for 10-15 mins to assist removal. The moisture will tend to loosen it, although the crust will become soggy. Once it is out of the tin, the crust will dry out and crispen up again

Pizza stone here too, although one of them has cracked, possibly from the steam.

Thanks folks.

Might try greasing the tin, or at least the lip where it sticks.

Interesting that it doesn't stick to a pizza stone. I used to have some for making (oddly) pizzas and they would stick sometimes.

I did try leaving it to cool in the tin a couple of weeks ago to see if they shrank and different rates and separated. It seemed easier to get out, but the crust was very soft (which was actually quite nice, it would work well as a loaf for sandwiches). Will try a shorter time.

Here is a few pictures of my recent bakes which I am pretty chuffed with. Learning everytime and despite being a sceptic Instagram has proved invaluable in terms of learning off others...

71% Hydration Loaf

Looking good Alba!

TNW, my pizza stone never sticks, the only way pizza sticks is if I've overlaoded it and some cheese makes a bid for freedom. And Semolina is your friend.

I've just started using a dutch oven for mine now - works really well I have to say! Good for high hydration loaves too.

I’ve just started using a dutch oven for mine now – works really well I have to say! Good for high hydration loaves too.

you using parchment/greaseproof paper in that or just plopping the dough straight in?

I use parchment in a le Creuset casserole pot

This morning’s bake after an overnight rise, uncovered, which gives a nice tight skin and seems to stop it flopping so much. Man, the heel of this with a bit of nice salty butter...😀

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@deadlydarcy looks lovely...a big slab of Kerry gold on the doorstep and a cuppa 🤤

Am I the only one who is doing exclusively granary flour loaves?

I did get up to 20% white briefly.

Question - if adding wholemeal (finally got hold of some Shipton Mill 🙌) is it just a straight swap, so say, half and half by weight SWBF/Wholemeal? All other ingredients the same?

WW and rye are thirstier flours, so to get the same consistency dough you may need to up the hydration....

also another consideration, not sure if you usually knead your dough but WW and rye have the 'sharp bits' of the grain left in them which can cut through gluten when kneading, so i think its generally considered better to maybe stretch and fold or somethings rather than kneading.

I just stretch and fold as per jack anyway, rather than knead. Wondered if there would be a need for more hydration. Ta. 👍

also another consideration, not sure if you usually knead your dough but WW and rye have the ‘sharp bits’ of the grain left in them which can cut through gluten when kneading, so i think its generally considered better to maybe stretch and fold or somethings rather than kneading.

"Autolysing" (mixing the flour and water, and starter, depending on who you believe, but not salt) before the stretching/folding/kneading will soften the bran up. It's supposed to be good to do anyway, but particularly with coarser flours.

my 8th attempt at sourdough bread.... think I may have gotten the hang of it now....