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Funnily enough, that was my plan for the weekend, I'll give your method a go for the last 2.5 hours, cheers fella.
Holy thread resurrection!
I've been baking a lot recently (like everyone else it seems) though I actually started a couple of months ago, trying to get a method down that I could work around daily life - for a lot of people, me included, that's not such a concern at the moment, but nice if you want to keep making bread when we go back to whatever "normal" looks like. I documented the process of one loaf for a friend on Facebook. I'll try and work out how to share that later.
Some general lessons I've learnt:
Don't try to follow a recipe to the letter. Something will be different: the temperature in your kitchen/fridge/of your water, your flour, your starter, etc. etc. Experiment and try and work out what's going on.
The most important thing (IME) is to put your starter into your levain when it's most active, and put your levain into your dough when that's most active. Learning when that is and what affects it helps loads: see above.
This is one that worked:
For balance - not as good, but still tasty
Looks awesome tnw!
Thanks Nobeer! I think my photography's better than my baking though 😀
Aye, I agree. I followed a recipe to the letter for the first loaf and didn't like the results - now follow a rough sequence from a few recipes and the results seem better and as I get more confident I'll vary the flours and hydration levels. Things I need to work on are my shaping although baking inside a casserole pot makes a difference.
Things I need to work on are my shaping although baking inside a casserole pot makes a difference.
I used to do the no knead NY Times bread, every day, about 12, 13 years ago when my daughter was a baby, and used a big pyrex dish, worked great. Do you use greaseproof paper or anything in there?.
Oh yeah, shaping is the other thing I've realised the importance of recently, after I watched a friend do it (remember when we were allowed to go away for a weekend with friends?).
Making a ball of dough, then going round pulling the outside in and pushing it into the centre makes all the difference between a pancake and a proper rounded boule.
I want to try with a cast iron casserole, but don't have a round one with a lid. I wonder, though, whether baking in a casserole without learning to shape it properly for freeform is a bit like learning to do mini-bunny hops with SPDs, or manuals with one of them "machines", if you get my drift.
I do shape it then prove them overnight in the fridge in 1 round banneton and a mixing bowl which has steeper sides. then turn out on to grease proof paper, slash and place in the heated casserole dish or baking stone. I'll try and post pictures if possible to show the comparison.
Yeah, I've never got the hang of boules. But a deep-sided oven dish works well I find
I had a basket, but my 'high hydration' dough was so high it stuck to the bloody thing and I never managed to get it clean then it went mouldy, now I just use a pyrex and a casserole dish, it lacks stripes, but I can live with that.
As part of keeping a local business going (cookery school) I booked a sourdough course for later in the year, I can make a loaf, but it's way more luck than judgement at the moment.
I've been making Ciabatta the last couple of weeks... but then I've got some yeast!!
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Get out of here Sharkbait! 😛
But you can leave your bread.
I've found a couple of books really useful over the years for making bread...
Dough by Richard Bertinet which describes a kneading method which I've used ever since... it's a pulling and folding method which apparently is how the French work dough, and is good for wetter than normal doughs. Might be able to find it on YouTube.
Bread Matters by Andrew Whitely... this is my go-to book for sourdough recipes and it gives some really good ideas how you can fit bread making into everyday life...
The thing that made the most difference for me was just time spent working dough and learning the feel when it's too wet or dry... and when is feels right...
On day 4 of the white plain flour (it's all I had/could get) starter, it's been bumbling along fine, nothing spectacular...
Managed to get some Rye flour now, holy shit, it's like jet fuel for starters!! Here we go! 🙂
Managed to get some Rye flour now, holy shit, it’s like jet fuel for starters!! Here we go!
Expecting big things this weekend!
I hope so Alba!
Anyone do sourdough pizza dough? Paesano in Glasgow use a sourdough base, and it's bloody lovely. Not my usual at all, I love thin n crispy pizza, theirs is more like a thinner naan, but awesome!
My starter just turned 3 weeks old. I've been fairly chilled with it, mostly as I've struggled to find flour so it gets fed what it gets. White, wholemeal, bread flour it even got semolina the other day. I have also chucked it the odd teaspoon of yoghurt every now and then.
Anyway I think the bread is really good. I don't really use a recipe just what looks and feels right. Don't bother kneading, I let the bread machine make the dough.
The last loaf.
Side and underside.
And did fire pit pizzas. Again no recipe so it is hard to share but roughly 200grms fed starter, 450grms bread flour, table spoon of sugar, glug of olive oil, add lukewarm water until it looks right. Let the machine kneed it for a bit then add a teaspoon and a bit if salt.
Sorry for the poor photos.
Why put sugar in pizza dough!?
Why put sugar in pizza dough!?
i think it helps the dough rise a bit faster, and is also sposed to help with browning the pizza crust a little.
im the same tho, why? the recipe i used had somethings like half a teaspoonful in, and you just think really? is that really gonna make any difference whatsoever? 😀
i bet you wouldnt really notice if you didnt put it in.....
timidwheeler, that looks good, im assuming you used a shaped breadpan of some sort to get the oblong shape? what did you use, a non-stick cake-tin jobbie or a le creuset type pot?
Anyone do sourdough pizza dough?
yes, when i have a starter going for bread ill always do pizzas too. theyre lovely. just a bit too much faff for me these days keeping one going, i invariably end up leaving it in the fridge and forgetting it. last one was actually mouldy.
timid, i like the look of that firepit pizza, just a question if i may...... doesnt the base get burnt from the direct heat rather than baking on a hot stone? or at least cook a lot quicker than the toppings as theres no heat from above?
Looks good timid!
I reckon a big metal bowl/binlid type affair over that pizza would help no end.
Why put sugar in pizza dough!?
Dunno about sourdough, as I'm only just starting out, but I've always put a teaspoon or more in my standard pizza dough to feed the yeast. It's not as if you can taste it at that concentration.
From what I’ve read/watched refined sugar is too complex for yeast to feed off - it’s only used for colour and flavour.
Sourdough pizza video from Firehouse Bakery.
I did the loaf in a silicone baking 'tin'. It proved in it for about 18 hours. About 4 hrs in the warm, then in the fridge overnight, then out to come to room temp before baking. For the last 10 mins of baking I popped it out of the tin onto the perforated baking sheet to prevent soggy bottom. The sheet is what I cook the pizzas on.
I have a large wok I put over the pizzas when they are on the fire pit. I also leave the pizza dough for hours and hours to prove once it comes out of the bread machine, sorry I didn't really make that clear.
I have always put a small amount of sugar in dough. Most bread machine recipes use it. The suggestion is that it helps feed the dough so it rises. A flat table spoon really isn't very much, the dough doesn't taste sweet.
The silicone thing looks filthy but it is actually just burnt.
Superb sir!
wow!
I'm trying baguettes from my rye starter this weekend... it might turn into a bit of a disaster...
And sourdough pizza is yummy...
That looks really, really nice Felix.
Does anybody bake with a yeast water starter?
I made a raisin based one last week as I can't get any yeast and it worked brilliantly, combining it with flour and resting overnight to create a 'sourdough' starter, loaves were very good, although not typically sourdoughesque.
My question is how long does it realistically take to refresh your yeast water, I kept 200ml back, added new fruit, sugar, water, etc and left it for two days as I've read should be long enough but today's loaf hasn't got as much life/ volume as I hoped, I'm thinking three or four days is more realistic.
Any feedback would be great as it seems if you get it right it's a much lower maintenance way to bake than making and feeding a traditional sourdough starter, especially in times when yeast is a rare item.
How crucial is room temperature when getting the starter going? I've read it should be between 70 and 75 F which is warmer than any of the rooms in our house (Scotland, obviously!). I've measured the temperature at the top of the fridge and it isn't warm enough there either.
And does it matter if the temperature dips overnight? MrsKenny is understandably reluctant to have the heating on 24 hours a day no matter how delicious I claim the pizzas will be.
There are various cakes that use yeast as the leavening rather than the normal chemical raising agent.
Seen no reason why they can't be made using a starter rather than instant yeast.
How crucial is room temperature when getting the starter going? I’ve read it should be between 70 and 75 F which is warmer than any of the rooms in our house (Scotland, obviously!). I’ve measured the temperature at the top of the fridge and it isn’t warm enough there either.
And does it matter if the temperature dips overnight? MrsKenny is understandably reluctant to have the heating on 24 hours a day no matter how delicious I claim the pizzas will be.
@kennyp if it’s colder the starter will just take longer to get going I imagine and same applies when proving bread etc. You could offset the temp initially by adding slightly warmer water. If you’ve a got water tank you could use that room.
Cheers Albanach. I've put my "pet" by the window for a nice warm day in the sun.
first loaf is on its way!
going off at a slight tangent, but i made some soda bread the other day for the first time.
no kneading, no starters to keep fed, no faff, just mix it up, bake, and it was bluddy lovely. ill be concentrating on this for the next few bakes, if i carry on making decent loaves i can see us binning the other types of bread and sticking with this, just for the easy life.
anyone else tried this?
@sadexpunk yeah I’ve tried it a good few times and it’s nice but I found it heavy going on the digestion compared to normal or sourdough loaves. You can make some nice variations of soda bread too...
I've made soda bread a few times but I just don't think the texture can compare with yeast-leavened bread. It's different, and has its place for sure, but it's no replacement.
My latest effort (if you haven't posted your sourdough on Instagram, have you even baked it? ;-P )
I really have ****ed up the latest batch, which is "proving" (sort of) on my worktop after I completely forgot to do any stretching and folding yesterday afternoon.
Not tto bad for a first effort, think I knocked some air out in the transition form fridge to peel, time to get some nice proving baskets I think. Tastes not too bad, but I'd prefer it to be a little more sour.
And just realised I completely forgot the tray of hot water below, what a cock!
NBITF good effort buddy...would you care to post the recipe on here..... all recipes that I have found on the tinternet have far to much water in them... makes for a wetter sloppier dough that can't be shaped properly by myself.... have made 2 sourdough loafs now and kinda getting better...... I have no hassles at all when using instant yeast though.....LOL
Davy, I used the basic sourdough recipe on bake with jack, he does a full run through on youtube of the process, fairly simple. Yes, it does end up quite wet, but I think it needs to, to develop the big holes?.
cheers...I just can't do nowt to shape the loaf before baking....it turns out pancake shaped.....LOL... and I bought to bannetons from aliexpress... complete with linen covers and LAME's to slice the top of the dough...
hmmmmm...... just watched that video and its made me want to do sourdough again now 😀
historically my problems always been my starter, dont think ive ever managed to get a good bubbly starter to work with. ill go back over and have a read see if hes got a good method...
Davy, you got a link to the bannetons? How long did they take to arrive?.
Did firepit pizzas again. You can see how thin the base is by the fire light shining through.
Dirty, dirty food served pleb style. Nom, nom non.
Brilliant tw!
I made a pizza attachment for my Weber last year, still to try making wood fired pizza in it, this weekend!
That looks amazing Nobeer! Did you turn it over during baking or something? It doesn't seem to have a bottom.
That pizza looks great too.
Davy, the best method I've found is to grab the side of the dough and stretch it into the middle and poke it in, then work all the way around doing this, like you're making a sort of parcel - imagine you have bagel that you're wrapping with a napkin!
It doesn’t seem to have a bottom.
lol, it defo does, mibbe just the angle of that pic!.
Nobeer: the bannetons will possibly take about 3 weeks or so to arrive. (am still waiting), I also bought 2 off Ebay.....they took about 10 days to arrive....(use topcashback)
Thenorthwind: yep, I do all that stretching and folding for my breadmaking, I will cut down on the amount of water for my next attempt...
hello sourdough heads. Revived my old starter and had a go at
https://www.hobbshousebakery.co.uk/blogs/recipes/140081991-sourdough-bread-recipe
Theproblem i had was that the dough , which i had left to rise in a loaf tin overnight for 12 hours, stuck to the aforementioned tin when turning it out onto the hot baking sheet. So I lost some air and it had a bubbly indented crust. was tasty but not as airy as i'd like.
What did i do wrong? I kneaded it for over 15 minutes and the dough did perhaps feel a little wet. Was it my kneading technique? i floured the loaf tin heavily etc. thanks in advance for the tips!
I didn't knead that at all, according to the bake with jack video, you only fold over (never ore than about a dozen times) as the length of time does the work, not the kneading.
it turns out pancake shaped
@davy-g If the loaf pancakes, give it a re-shape and leave it to rest for longer - just out on the board/bench you have it on. Also, possibly drop the hydration down a little, most recipes come out really wet.
@howsyourdad - if it wasn't as airy as you'd like 2 things come to mind, 1 is adding too much flour in the kneading phase (I prefer the stretch and fold method too as mentioned above). 2 is it may not have proved well, I do the first phase in the oven with a container of previously boiled water adding the heat. I also have quite a cold house so usually first prove is an hour to 90 minutes longer than most people suggest. As for sticking, I know your pain, happens to me all the time!
@nobeerinthefridge you dont knead the hobbs recipe?
@toby1 ooooh whats the stretch and fold? i feel like it did have plenty of air but the bloody thing stuck. perhaps i should line the tin with greaseproof paper?
@howsyourdad1 Wet dough is always going to stick... if you don't prove it in the container you bake it in, turn it out onto a floured surface (some will stick, but pull as much out as possible in one go with your hand) and reshape it, then leave it to rest for a while (I reckon 30-60 mins). Transferring it to the tray might still be tricky, but speed is key.
@davy-g I meant for a final shape before baking, since you said it turns into a pancake (I've had loads do that too). Shape it as above and then leave it for 30-60 mins before baking.
Based on what I have learnt from you guys, I'm going to try a much wetter dough.
I'll say one thing, it is a pain in the arse to deal with. However I have managed to force it into my baking tin to prove and it is currently sat in the warmest spot in the house.
Not in the way at all.
Stand by for real time updates.
Alba, superb, I'll grab a couple of those instead!
Mine was fairly wet tw, I found a spray bottle with water in it helped, spray hands and surface before folding.
Only used flour for the final shaping.
Same here re the wetness - bannetonA are good and baking inside a casserole pot makes a difference too.
Oh yeah, wetting your hands under the tap before you handle the dough makes it so much easier.
It rose beautifully, I slit the top and dusted it. Happy days.
Came back a couple of hours later and it had continued to rise and flopped over the top of the tin. I've desperately scooped it back in but it got all deflated and now looks a right mess. It's also going to have to take its chance in the oven with the roast potatoes.
I'm concerned.
Timidwheeler
Take the dough out of the tin, reshape into a loaf and let it prove (rise) again. It's what you do when you over-prove a loaf.
Keep an eye on it this time.
Cheers but too late. It's in the oven. We're having sausages for dinner and need bread to go with it.
You will have a perfectly formed house brick when it comes out of the oven
Lol. I think you may be right but it might make nice breakfast toast. Sounds dense on top, a bit hollower round the sides and bottom.
It'll still taste very nice. If you had enough you could build a small extension.
Keep on at it and you'll get the hang of this bread baking.
My first go well well.
You’ve got me worried now.
I used less water than the recipe suggested.
Any the recipe call for a long rise and prove.
I gave it 24 hours rise in the (warm) airing cupboard followed by 4 hour prove by the back door (cool) and then in the fridge for 3o minutes before transferring to a preheated baking sheet.
Worked well.
Next time the oven will be slightly cooler for slightly longer.
Don't be worried, it was actually lovely. Biggest issue was we didn't let it cool fully in the middle. However for a 50% wholemeal loaf if was perfectly airy.
That looks like victory snatched from the jaws of defeat TW!
I gave it 24 hours rise in the (warm) airing cupboard followed by 4 hour prove by the back door (cool) and then in the fridge for 3o minutes before transferring to a preheated baking sheet.
I'm a bit confused about this... Usually you do a rise for a shorter time in a warm place, followed by a longer time in cool/cold place. 24 hours is a long time in a warm place, I would have expected the dough to have completed exploded by that point. I'm not sure what 30 minutes in the fridge is doing either. If I've proved mine in the fridge/cool garage (usually overnight, or about 16 or 24 hours), I'll leave it for an hour or two to come up to room temperature before it goes in the oven (though not sure that's really necessary). Cooling it down before it goes in the oven just seems odd. I'm not trying to criticise by the way - just interested in different methods. If it works, then that's all there is to it!
That dough I thought I'd ****ed by forgetting to stretch and fold turned out surprisingly well:
The tin loaf was a present for the friend who gave me a 16kg bag of flour last week. He's started a bagel company, and he's challenged me to have a go at making a sourdough bagel. I've separated a chunk from my next batch of dough to try, and it's currently proving in the fridge til tomorrow morning. I think shaping will be tricky with 75% hydration dough, but hopefully using some flour to shape it will sort that out without ruining it.
Aye, I'm a beginner but pretty sure the long prove is supposed to be done dans le frigo.
They look really good Northwind. The only flour Tesco had today was spelt. Anyone tried spelt sourdough? I've got some white bread flour left so I might try a 50/50 loaf first but I think I'm going to have to feed the starter semolina flour again. It seemed happy enough last time.
feed the starter semolina flour again
Good shout, I've loads of that.
It’s an American bread book I’ve got and the long warm rise seemed to work.
It might not next time.
The 30 minutes in the fridge is supposedly to stabilise the dough (I think that means to stop it pancaking).
Spelt is a great bread flour in the breadmaker.
Ought to be good for sourdough.
when i tried spelt i was told itd struggle to rise much, and that proved to be the case. it tends to 'splodge' out rather than rise well, so i think its better to use it just as a percentage of the whole amount of flour, maybe less than 50%.
you may get away with it a bit more if you shape and bake in a pan/dish/breadmaker rather than freeform.
tastes nice tho if you can get a good loaf.
Thanks timidwheeler.
I tried some spelt a couple of weeks ago when I was starting to run out of wheat flour. It doesn't have as much gluten as normal wheat so it's more difficult to get that structure that holds the gas produced by the fermentation in and allows it to rise. I wouldn't use it any more than 50% of the mix certainly.
Here's the ones I tried (2nd and 3rd pics):
I've got some more, and I'm nearly out of wholemeal and rye, and need to keep some for starter feed, so I might try some more white and spelt loaves.
Here’s my latest effort
Can you use Instagram to postinages?
Can you use Instagram to postinages?
Yes, just paste the link in, the forum software does everything else.
I said before that I'd share the series of Facebook posts I did showing how I do my sourdough, so here they are. I wouldn't go as far as to call it a guide, much less a recipe, but all the details are there, should you want to recreate it, though I picked the wrong loaf to document as it didn't turn out great. With normal wheat flour it would have looked a lot better.
https://www.facebook.com/leftfootleashed/posts/10221783676280419
https://www.facebook.com/leftfootleashed/posts/10221784042369571
https://www.facebook.com/leftfootleashed/posts/10221801803013576
Hope these links work.