Lease car is going back in Feb so I've got 6 weeks to sort a new car and I'm struggling a bit.
We've had a diesel Kuga for 3 years and done just under 30k miles, mostly local trips, with occasional further trips for holidays and canoe races.
With how the economy has gone and we'll be getting hit with a mortgage rate increase in 2 years we've set a hard limit of £15k budget to buy something we can keep until it all blows over.
I'm not sure diesel is right for us, too many short journeys and although we've not had any issues as such, the DPF filter warning comes on too frequently for my liking. Also I work in Birmingham so if we do go Diesel it would be better if it was Euro6 so I can drive in if required without shelling out, seems likely that anti diesel sentiment will continue for private cars anyway.
Petrol economy is a concern though so it's not a clear cut choice
I'm also tempted by some of the cheaper EVs that are available now
Mrs P has back issues so has to have a raised seating position so will have to be SUV/Crossover or MPV sadly and her back issues have spread to her knees so we're going auto finally! Also no leather - wife and kids don't like it, I'm agnostic.
Needs to be family sized, but necessarily as big as the Kuga
Shortlist has (amongst many others)
Ford C Max - petrol or diesel
2 series Active tourer - petrol, diesel or plug in hybrid
Pug e2008 - electric looks decent 200mile range (150 in the real world)
MG ZS - looks ok to me, a bit cheap but is cheap so that's fine, only going to get 130ish miles of range out of one though.
TBH I really fancy an electric car, but would a 150ish mile range work? I'm sure 95% of the time it would, furthest races are about 150 mile round trip so would only need a quick charge somewhere with the 2008 but for those that have got EVs how do UK holidays work? Or will I save so much in fuel costs we can just go abroad?
The other option is getting a shitbox for about £5000 and hope everything looks better in 3 years. But after 3 years in a new car with new car comforts I don't really like that idea.
Any input welcomed. Ta.
Kids / canoes / upright seating?
Berlingo!
There's a few K9/Mk3 Citroen Berlingo / Peugeot Rifters now starting to creep towards and under the £15k mark.
1.2 petrol.
Sorry! Ignore - I've just seen the automatic requirements.
Is it a PCP deal or a lease car?
The PCP on our Kuga came to an end in Sept - and with car prices and interest rates as they are the sensible option for us was just just pay the balloon and keep the car.
We'll keep it another 18 months and see where the market is then.
It's a lease - also its manual so it's going to have to go anyway. Looking at the market prices for 21 plate Kugas I doubt we'd have been able to afford the balloon payment, it was a very good lease deal.
I love, love, love my Pug e208, but that's as a second car. In the real world (at this time of year anyway), even 150 miles would be optimistic, I'd say it's more like 120-140 (eg. 46.3 kHh actual battery at 3.3 m/kWh = 132 miles range - and that's to complete 0%, which your stress levels won't thank you for).
Again, personal opinions but I'd avoid diesel (joyless, DPF/ERG/DMF stress) and hybrid (complexity = possible big bills).
In your shoes I'd probably be looking at Skoda 1.5l petrol SUVs (Kamiq/Karoq/Kodiaq?), plus maybe Yeti?
Touran/Sharan with a DSG box.
Will you be able to charge an ev at home? (basically, do you have your own driveway), that has a big impact on cost and convenience.
Good point, yes have got a drive, would get a box installed if we went EV, no garage.
rough rule of thumb on 10k miles per year will be 2700kw, so Intelligent octopus (7.5p/kwh) will cost £203 per year in electric. octopus go (9p/kwh) will cost £243 per year. However, your day rate will go up so you'll need to do some maths on whats best based on your house electric usage. certainly with octopus go, if you can shift washer, dryer, dishwasher, dehumidifier etc etc use to nighttime then that will be at the ev charging rate so makes a big difference. You'll need a smart meter and for intelligent octopus an ohme charger or a car that works with IO
Kia Sportage or Hyundai Tucson.
Good size, loads around, long warranty and lots of toys for the money.
Purely from a carbon footprint point of view, with that level of mileage, the carbon footprint of an electric car is much, much higher than an ICE. So it would be an ICE for me in your position,
Except any EV you buy secondhand will have already nearly 'broken even' on it's embodied carbon from production. Depending on the carbon intensity of its factory, and the factories making the bits that go into it, and the origin of it's power for fuel you are looking at 20-40k miles.
For ease of driving with mobility issues, being able to charge at home and doing lots of short drives, NOT getting an EV seems mental.
Hop on auto trader and have a look at all the ex-lease 64kwh Kia/Hyundai, go and test drive a few and see what works size wise.
15k will get you a Kona, Niro or Soul. Niro is biggest, so might be the best bet. Will still have 5yrs+ left on both battery and car warranty. Will get you 220 miles in winter (easily) and 250-270 or more in summer. Ours is a first edition Soul so gets a heat pump for the climate which helps eeek out the miles in winter. The others may or may not, but I wouldn't dwell on it especially if you aren't regularly pushing the range.
Just go test drive some and see what the dealers have to say. Advertised at 15-17k so perhaps a bit of scope to discount as well. They were very popular for fleets three years ago (when we got ours) and so there are a lot about which helps keep the price down.
Nothing has launched since then that I would rather have. Had it in for a stuck charge flap under warranty, and just approaching new front tyres and discs after that three years.
Our 16 grand cmax diesel is the finest car ever made. £35 road tax is nice too.
Petrol economy is a concern though so it’s not a clear cut choice
My Leon Estate 1.4tsi Automatic does more mpg in urban places than the V70 and Galaxy and Touran diesels before it. Longer journeys we are maybe 2mpg less. Plus cheaper servicing. Cheaper fuel.
I'll sell you a 2017 Leon FR 1.4tsi DSG estate with 93k on the clock, new brakes, timing belt done two years ago, full service history, £35 VED, 50mpg on a run, 44 around town, etc for under £9k at the moment. We really want to keep it, but the camper means we have to sell...
https://www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/seat-leon-14tsi-fr-dsg-automatic-estate/1468768849
I love Fords but when the dealers tell you to not buy an automatic...
I'm about to ditch my SMax. Love it but I need an auto for knee comfort with the type of driving I'm increasingly doing around work. I'd have another SMax in a heartbeat except my understanding was that the PowerShift units are expensive on maintenance and they often get neglected on second hand cars and near to end of lease cars as a result. It's a shame as it's got a lovely high driving position and is super comfy.
Petrol vs. Diesel at 10,000 miles a year and not hitting long distance regularly is petrol all the way for me. Don't know about Birmingham but in London and Bristol I believe Euro 4+ petrol is ok. So that means you can go older and open up other options.
For context I do about 10-15,000 miles a year depending on work and extended travel. I'm on my second dpf equipped car over nearly 8 years. I've yet to see the DPF light. My 20 mile commute plus regular longer trips sees to that.
As well as large estates I've been looking at suv and crossovers (but with limited enthusiasm).
For SUVs diesel is still king in terms of availability presumably because of the barn door aerodynamics and weight making petrol less attractive. The Discovery Sport, Freelander 2 and various BMW X models are in your price range ... there's a few older X3s about with the 3.0 straight 6 petrol near me (Hampshire). Maybe also Mercedes GLC? Jaguar F-pace might be another premium crossover.
The way I'm looking at this is the premium brands are generally ahead on autos as it has been more of their sales for longer. They also tend to offer some extra performance which works well with an auto and towing (one of my needs). That means an age/mileage sacrifice but potentially a better overall ownership experience.
You'd probably find some DSG petrol Tiguans in budget (or Skoda / SEAT equivalent).
No experience of french autos (e.g. Peugeot and Citroen).
If estates are any good look out my thread.
One more from me..
A 150 mile range EV won't do 150 miles loaded to the gills with kayaks on top.
As for holidays we concluded there's no EV out there yet that can serve our "week in the hills" holiday pattern. Too many of the places we go are charger deserts and between managing two energetic children, a dog that hates car travel and a limited number of days off a year I'm loathe to add long stops and hunt the available fast charger to lengthy school holiday journey times / have to make extra trips to find decent charging. I might tolerate that if it weren't for the fact that finding the kind of EV that would cope with a basic weekend away at my parents (also charger desert residents) was going to cost about £600 a month to lease.
All that said I'd love an EV but function and convenience vs. Cost the balance is still all wrong for me.
Get a 250 mile EV then 🙂
Get a 250 mile EV then 🙂
I'm thinking about the OP and his budget and his kayaks that are presumably going to hammer the WLTP figure.
Not wanting to go off topic but for us even a WLTP 250 miler is pushing it in real world (draggy exterior loads). I have been looking regularly but it is way too much of a compromise for our main car.
Our second car would, however, be a perfect candidate for a smaller EV like a Niro but it doesn't do enough annual miles (we do about 5k/year in that) to warrant the capital outlay while it's running perfectly and costs peanuts on maintenance and insurance.
Kia Sportage or Hyundai Tucson.
I've tried to write this 3 times over the course of the day, but we have a '23 self charging hybrid Sportage as the family vehicle. Its very good, I averaged 57mpg on a 6 mile stop start trip today, and it averages about 50mpg on the motorway. As Lunge says, its got a gazillion toys & radars etc and is a very roomy and comfortable car to drive.
The only problem I have with it is a positive one, I find it very difficult to drive without playing the "make the EV light come on" game.
We've had many weeks at holiday cottages in Scotland and lakes doing hill walking etc, never had a problem charging our EVs. We generally just make sure we book somewhere with parking and come to an arrangement with the cottage owner. Fully fueled car every morning
smaller EV like a Niro
Is a niro small?
😁😁
I would say, we do plenty of mountain biking all over Scotland in our EVs. You might be surprised how much time you spend parked next to chargers. We don't have a feel for how strapping stuff to the roof hammers the range, but we do have an ID Buzz as a van, which is shaped like a brick and still gets 3-4m/kWh. Our watersports are all inflatable so easy to pack away with the bikes.
For £15k I'd get an Ioniq EV. The range is a good 170 -180 miles, with nothing on the roof. It's probably the most efficient car in existence right now.
Just remember you don't have to be empty to charge, nor do you have to fill up all the way. So if you know you're doing 150 miles and want some security you can stop at any point in the journey for a 10 min top up. Usually when you know you are passing a convenient charger.
Think about it this way - would you like petrol to be 15p a litre?
Thanks all, I'm really tempted to go EV, it's just that leap into the unknown really making me nervous, certainly on any day where we're not on holiday or racing an EV makes total sense for us, really the ideal would me an EV and a van for racing, but the budget isn't there.
Not sure the ioniq would work, looks a bit low, Niro would be ideal, but a bit too expensive at the moment, fingers crossed some more come off lease in the new year, but would need to be quick, have to get something sorted by Feb
Brand new ID Buzz can be had for just a little over £300 a month right now on a lease deal. Cheap as chips.
alex22
Free MemberBrand new ID Buzz can be had for just a little over £300 a month right now on a lease deal. Cheap as chips.
Link?
Brand new ID Buzz can be had for just a little over £300 a month right now on a lease deal. Cheap as chips.
£4k down, £8k of lease payments for 16k of miles in 2 years = £0.75 per mile, before insurance, maintenance and 'fuel'.
That doesn't seem cheap to me.
calling it £300 when its:
£4k down, £8k of lease payments
33% downpayment is misrepresenting it a bit.
More importantly, why is it significantly cheaper for a shorter lease?
33% downpayment is misrepresenting it a bit.
Indeed - over £500 amortised for 8k miles a year is better.
Purely from a carbon footprint point of view, with that level of mileage, the carbon footprint of an electric car is much, much higher than an ICE. So it would be an ICE for me in your position,
Fake news
After three years the EV will have a lower carbon footprint at that annual mileage.
Not sure the ioniq would work, looks a bit low,
It's a normal car but I didn't read the part about back.problems so yeah. There's a Kona which is taller. It was available in both a short and long range version.
There is certainly a transition period/stuff to learn and get used to, but if my mum at 73 can do it and now happily hammers up and down Edinburgh to Oxford/Stratford multiple times a year in a 200 mile max Mégane, you will be grand.
And yes there have been some very cheap Buzz leases around, I think there are some places with excess stock of passenger version. I have seen cheaper than that on the Buzz FB group with low down payments. Could be a good way of testing it, 2yr lease on a Buzz and see how you get on.
Although likewise, buying a 15k Niro and you don't like it, sell it in 6 months for 14k? You won't have put a lot of miles on it, Ans it shouldn't loose too much value.
We have the Buzz cargo and really rate it very highly.
The Buzz prices are probably low because they expect residuals to be good.
Lease prices are weird. I want an Ioniq 6, but it's about £600 to lease. Another option, the Nissan Ariya which is similarly priced new can be had for around £400.
@prawny I recommend you test drive something electric. They're great.
I would suggest what I have - Toyota Corolla Touring sports. Well made, comfy and very economical. I average 50-60 mpg out of mines in winter and can touch 70 in the summer. Has tons of space and hybrid system means you get best of both worlds and don't have to worry about range.
Plus Toyota give you a ten year warranty (3 years, but after that they give you an extra years warranty every time you get it serviced by them) which makes it a no brainer for a second hand purchase along with their reputation for reliability.
If your missus absolutely needs an SUV, go for a RAV4.
Update -
Went to a car supermarket over the weekend (after settling on a Tiguan based on specs and online listings then discovering that all of the ones locally have aged terribly so they're out) and took the kids to try loads of options for size.
Wife and kids have decided no leather, too cold and shiny - I'm not particularly bothered but I've been outvoted so Niro is out, 2 spec one is rare and a bit sparse.
Kona too small
Fords - gearboxes are indeed a gamble I'm not willing to take.
So I think we're down to a shortlist of 2.
MG ZS EV - can shift the budget based on reduced future bills to get a long range one for £17kish
Kia Sportage - kids favourite, because it's got heated rear seats.
Really tempted by going electric, but still mildly panicked at the idea. Anyone owned or driven a new MG EV?
I think you're right in the notion that a 150mile EV will suit 95% of your needs...
I'm actually thinking of selling my Nissan Leaf (for 10.5k) soon, as I fancy a longer range EV..
I love it, and have upgraded the wheels (pimp white!) and fitted crossclimates all round.. Adaptive CC etc.. Lovely to drive, but I've been told to get rid of my Octavia, so will need a longer range EV!
DrP
We have had an MG4 since May last year. We really like it. Sure it's not the most 'premium' materials inside and the lane assist is annoying, but otherwise it's been great. Fun to drive, gets close to WLTP mileage, no issues at all. Software is a bit creaky but has improved with updates.
No heated seats (we have the base one) is really the only extra we're missing. Carplay is way better/reliable than in my Skoda.
Skoda finishes 4 year lease in Sept. Considering a MG ZS EV as well. Just not sure we want two electric cars.
10k pa is less than 200 miles per week - why wouldn't a range of 150 miles work (for the vast majority of your journeys)?
Purely from a carbon footprint point of view, with that level of mileage, the carbon footprint of an electric car is much, much higher than an ICE. So it would be an ICE for me in your position,
Based on any facts?
If you care about alleged poor worker practices by Geely Autos best not buy any MG, Volvo or Polestar cars.
After three years the EV will have a lower carbon footprint at that annual mileage
have you a link to this and if it holds true when you factor in manufacturing and battery decommissioning and life expectancy of an EV. I would be interested to read it as I haven’t found one from a credible source
Lease prices are weird. I want an Ioniq 6, but it’s about £600 to lease. Another option, the Nissan Ariya which is similarly priced new can be had for around £400.
I know the world changes and all that, but the prices people are prepared to pay for cars these days is nuts.
Just before lock down £600 would get you in a new Porsche 911. £400 would get a very very nice premium BMW / Audi / Merc
I just cant bring myself to pay this type of money for shit box cars. Neither have I had the salary increase for it either !
Hybrid then you can be hated by everyone! 🙂
Some really good views from people with different needs, experiences and tollerances - make the decision based on what you feel is right for you.
If you were looking at the Tiguan it might be worth looking at Skoda Karoq or Seat Ateca (what I have) as they are basically the same car but cheaper.
£400 would get a very very nice premium BMW / Audi / Merc
I just cant bring myself to pay this type of money for shit box cars.
Having had a good look round an Ioniq 6 and an Ariya, they are absolutely not shitboxes in any way. And they are a damn sight cheaper than the premium manufacturer's EV offerings.
IMO from a cost point of view.
- If buying new then get a hybrid.
- If leasing or PCP then get an EV
- If buying used then get a diesel or petrol
Just before lock down £600 would get you in a new Porsche 911. £400 would get a very very nice premium BMW / Audi / Merc
Evidence please as not my actual experience of us both buying cars in 2018, one brand new and the other 6 months old on PCP's.
Just before lock down £600 would get you in a new Porsche 911
no it wouldnt, not without an enormous up front payment anyway....
Any logic to those opinions, didnthurt ? 😉
Two and three-year old EVs are very attractively priced in my part of the world.
When looking at lifetime running costs the non-plug-in hybrids are the worst of all worlds. They are not escpecially cheap to buy, fuel or service. Long term they are complicated with everything to go wrong and recycle of both EV and ICE, and then some. Plug-in hybrids make some sense for those with a commute they can do on the battery, but in the real world studies say most people don't plug them in and if you don't they are very thristy.
https://theicct.org/publication/real-world-phev-use-jun22/
They're heavy, nearly as heavy as an EV, for example the Peugeot 308:
EV 1684kg
Plug-in hybrid 1598-1633kg
Petrol 1258-1291kg.
For things like overnight stay at parents away from EV charging infrastructure , the Granny cable is perfect. Mine lives permanently in the Frunk for emergency use. Overnighting at a chateaux coming back from the Alps last year I plugged it into the owners garage and in the 16 hours we spent there got a full charge.
When looking at lifetime running costs the non-plug-in hybrids are the worst of all worlds. They are not escpecially cheap to buy, fuel or service.
They are if your local journeys are done with electricity.
in the real world studies say most people don’t plug them in
Right, but we are not talking about averages here, we are talking about the OP's specific use case. Whether or not they plug in is not affected by what the rest of the population does.
if you don’t they are very thristy.
I don't think this is universally the case either. Some notable examples are.
Yeah. thanks Molgrips as I appreciate you're not invested in PHEV but it's important that arguments are balanced.
I've owned one for about 5 years and recall with horror on one hand the times I have forgotten to charge it. It has an increasingly niche use case as full EV cars become more and more prevalant but if a PHEV meets someone's use case it shouldn't be discounted. Ours has enabled us to go down to a single car which has been invaluable savings wise.
I'd just say the Op needs to be careful if they go this route that their needs don't change as 40 MPG max on ICE (2015 Outlander) isn't much fun when on EV I get about 4 or 5 miles per KW.
It's as if I didn't write this:
Plug-in hybrids make some sense for those with a commute they can do on the battery
😉
🙂 and yourself Edukator sorrt. I did see this.
Ours has enabled us to go down to a single car which has been invaluable savings wise.
Yeah I could go to a single car with a PHEV more cheaply, since it could tow all day but still do the commute on electricity - but only if it had a decent reliable 30 mile range, and many don't.
2015 Outlander
I think this is the famously thirsty one and the one most people are thinking of. I could go for a C-class plug-in hybrid with its real world 50 mile range though...
Yup, it is pretty thirsty. A good run on petrol only would be 40 MPG. The range in 2018 was 30 miles summer, 20 miles winter on 7.5Kw usable. It's now 22 miles summer, 15 miles winter on 5.3kw usable.
It wouldn't be what I'd buy now but 5 years back it was literally the only thing on the market that ticked all the boxes so I don't regret it.
Girlfriend has just recieved a brand new Toyota Yaris self charging hybrid. She's getting about 62mpg at the moment, but the car has done less than 600 miles. She only does small journeys commuting to work, gym etc.
Its a nice car, drives well, quiet and with a decent infotainment system. I'm quite impressed by it. Its not nippy, but it just feels like a well made car. Price wise, I don't really know whats good or bad, but her's cost £23k.
I've just ordered my first electric car, Q4 eTron. I haven't decided if I'm going to get rid of my ICE yet (Cupra Leon). I really like my petrol cars, as the Q4 is on salary sacrifice lease I'm stuck with it for 3 years.....so I'm going to see if I can cope entirely with driving just the eTron for a few months - if so the Cupra goes.
This is a no brainer.
Buy an ICE car, and preferably a petrol. Diesel will be the first to be taxed off the road when the time comes and given your mileage you won't really get the MPG benefit since Diesel now costs so much more to buy (plus the higher cost of the car itself). Hybrid will become a transition phase that is outdated by the time you come to sell, and has all the drawbacks of an EV (new tech, range limitation, unproven longevity etc), plus you are carrying around extra weight. Take a look at London road pricing (which is probably the model that most UK cities will transition to eventually). Hybrids are now treated like ICEs in terms of exemption from payment (which is to say none at all!).
EV used prices are totally unknown and untested. As technology improves and range increases and batteries on existing cars start to deteriorate in the 6 year + horizon, buying a used EV is just too big a risk. Throw in the macro-economic stuff (rising interest rates, inflation, lots of people exiting PCPs and fixed term mortgages having their finances squeezed) and the financial pain and uncertainty caused by the last 2 years of macro-economic turmoil hasn't really even started to impact ordinary folk.
For £15k you will also get a nicer ICE than EV.
I recently sold my petrol Mercedes E Class, banked the money and leased an EV (BMW iX3) through a salary sacrifice scheme. Financially that made sense since the money is now appreciating interest rather than being invested in something that will depreciate, and the salary sacrifice with on deposit made sense (but only just once you factored in petrol, insurance, tax etc). It was a tight run thing and I have basically taken an informed risk. In many respects I regret not owning an ICE car and therefore being in control of what I do in the future, particularly since the ban on new ICEs has been pushed back by 5 years. My decision to opt for an EV was also based firmly on keeping an ICE car on the driveway too. We recently drove 1800 mile round trip to go skiing in the Alps and it would be unimaginable to do that journey in the EV (would have meant stopping to charge 4 times each way). We took my wife's diesel.
Standard financial advice has been 'if it appreciates, buy it, if it depreciates, rent it', and I think that still applies. However, given the uncertainty that you and about 2 million people are currently experiencing about what happens when you exit a PCP, you are probably better off right now owning an asset that has already depreciated and puts you firmly in the decision making seat without the time pressure of a PCP ending, or the uncertainty around car prices.
In short, buy a decent ICE car, keep it until you want to and don't become too dependent on things you can't control or predict. It will be cheaper and greener in the long run to keep that car going than buy something new.
Bangernomics-wise the Vauxhall Ampera is worth a look - 10Kwh battery PHEV with about 50 miles range in summer and 30 miles in winter, and a good economical engine when run on petrol. Used examples are about 10 years old (+/- 1 yr) and go for about £6k (+/- £1k).
Or will I save so much in fuel costs we can just go abroad?
And don't think that charging an EV is very much cheaper than filling a car with fuel these days given electricity prices.
My 80kw battery costs £24 to charge and lasts 200 miles (on a good day when it isn't cold, I don't have the lights or radio on and I don't drive on motorways). Our diesel costs £65 to fill up and does 540 miles. There isn't much in it.
Because we live in the sticks we can't get signal for a smart meter. If we had a smart meter the EV would only cost £8, so then it does make more sense.
And don’t think that charging an EV is very much cheaper than filling a car with fuel these days given electricity prices.
It very much is, provided you have a home charger and a smart meter. My diesel miles cost ten times as much as my EV miles. That's huge. The saving alone pays half my car loan.
You are assuming that everybody has a charger at home, a smart meter and never needs to charge outside the home at a super charger. The economics look very different if that isn't the case, and it applies to plenty of people right now. Access to charging is far from universal right now and the rate of improvement is behind schedule, which was already behind the actual requirement.
You are assuming that everybody has a charger at home
No, I specifically said IF you have a charger at home.
No, I specifically said IFyou have a charger at home.
Fair enough. Lots of people don't, and the cost of installing a home charger is fairly chunky which also needs to be taken into account. Plenty of new car deals include one, but since the OP is considering used then it could be £500-£1000. Once it is done of course, you have it for life, but it's still quite an outlay initially.
I am 2 months into EV ownership and I am not a convert. On balance I would have waited and that is purely down to range anxiety. The technology just isn't good enough just yet to provide the kind of car usage experience that we have all come to enjoy from ICEs. It is the first car that I have ever owned which is appreciably worse than its immediate predecessor taken as a whole in terms of using it on a daily basis. I get the financial and environmental payback, but for me it isn't worth the real world compromise in terms of carefree motoring. I think it largely depends on your motoring needs. Around town and short journeys it is good. At motorway speeds it is less compelling.
It is the first car that I have ever owned which is appreciably worse than its immediate predecessor taken as a whole in terms of using it on a daily basis
what did you have and what have you now got ?
Lease prices are weird. I want an Ioniq 6, but it’s about £600 to lease. Another option, the Nissan Ariya which is similarly priced new can be had for around £400.
I know the world changes and all that, but the prices people are prepared to pay for cars these days is nuts.Just before lock down £600 would get you in a new Porsche 911. £400 would get a very very nice premium BMW / Audi / Merc
I just cant bring myself to pay this type of money for shit box cars. Neither have I had the salary increase for it either !
Back when I was driving for BCA I had a conversation with a guy who worked at the small dealership where I’d gone to pick up the boss’s car. I’d mentioned I’d taken a Merc C63 AMG up to Bridgewater BCA, and he said he’d leased one for a couple of years, just to ‘scratch the itch’. When he handed it back, he’d spent £10k, and had nothing to show for it! The costs included £485-ish/month lease (I can’t remember the exact amount), three sets of tyres at £1k/tyre, fuel at 17mpg, and a £650 fine for speeding on the M5 heading back to Saltash. He passed the cop car as it was heading down onto the motorway, saw the blue and yellow and started braking, but although they couldn’t get a lock on him, they had video, and advised him to accept a fine and points for 99mph, ‘cos nobody seeing the footage would believe for a second he was only doing 70!
That was a few years back. Those sort of costs made me wince; even higher lease costs would be prohibitively high for me to ever consider an EV, and £40-50k to buy, well, I’d never buy one, simply because of long-term issues with battery life.
When I bought my Ford, it had 3300 miles on the clock, 19-plate, it’s now on 28,600 miles, and my mileage had dropped off a cliff since retiring, and it was my intention for it to be the last car I ever buy. I think I’ve made the right choice.
what did you have and what have you now got ?
Had 2021 Mercedes E Class Estate. Now 2023 BMW iX3.
List price, the BMW is £20k more than the Merc.
More expensive, worse range, worse build quality, less classy, smaller. What's not to love?
There's the real risk of a big EV backlash at the moment based on the massive insurance and repair costs - if that 'story' gets rolling within the general public it could stall things badly.
The smallest accident runs the risk of writing off the car - battery packs are not being built to be economically repairable, or even repairable, and there have been several cases (mostly in the US) where people have been quoted a larger sum than the original car for a battery replacement (Tesla actually seem to be more reasonable than some others). A couple of cases of $55k Hyundia Ionic 5 being quoted $60k for a new battery.
Often this damage might be small - a Porsche with a 3mm gash in underside of the battery case - £50k new battery please because the cooling tubes are damaged.
Those sort of prices will kill the second hand market and lead to a lot of written off cars, killing any possible green gains.
Had 2021 Mercedes E Class Estate. Now 2023 BMW iX3.
thanks, haven't driven either but have been a passenger in an E Class a few times. I went from an Audi Q5 to a BMW i4 and think my experience is the polar opposite of yours ! My Audi was on a 4 yr PCP, the BMW is on a 4 yr salary sacrifice lease. I am net better off by about £100 a month now, driving around in a fully financed carefree car that costs me under £2 per 100 miles to drive about.
Only downside is it's not so easy get a bike in the back, though does go in fine with front wheel off, but I specced a retractable towbar and use a towbar rack if it's more than just me in the car.
What’s not to love?
Well, to your point, it is a lot cheaper and I have some cash in the bank for a rainy day, or when I decide to get back into an ICE again!
Back to the OP's point though, with £15k to spend on a purchase, the financial benefits just aren't there. Most of the benefit to me comes from the salary sacrifice element and the 'all-in' cost of insurance, home charger etc. As an outright purchase of a used car, I just don't think an EV stacks up just yet, and the bangernomics principle may never apply to EVs (BTW I do appreciate and I am not insinuating that £15k is bangernomics territory - it is still a significant chunk of change). I still have a 30 year old Land Rover 90 that I can keep chugging along with a hammer, and adjustable wrench and some oily rags. Good luck still keeping my iX3 on the road in 2054! It will be on its 4th battery pack by then and you will need a degree in electronics to convince it to start.
Given the OP's position, I stand by this being a no brainer in favour of an ICE petrol car, but do appreciate that different budgets and purchasing options might give a different result.
with £15k to spend on a purchase, the financial benefits just aren’t there.
He has a drive, so he can have a charger installed - so yes, they definitely are.
I would be very happy with a £15k EV, I could get an Ioniq EV Premium SE for that. The OP has already said he wants a higher car so that's fine, there might not be many options that suit - but you can't say that there are no benefits just because there aren't any benefits for you.
The smallest accident runs the risk of writing off the car – battery packs are not being built to be economically repairable, or even repairable
I'm not convinced by that, but it does seem to be the case that insurers are wary of them. I think there aren't enough garages with the skills to assess and deal with EVs.
List price, the BMW is £20k more than the Merc.
Eh?
A charger will potentially run to £500-£1000, so a decent chunk of the overall budget.
Assuming you never need to charge outside the home and you have a smart charger, the installation cost will repay itself fairly quickly, but it is another cost to factor in.
Plus I still maintain that £15k will buy you a nicer ICE than EV that will be more repairable, cheaper to insure etc. We are still some way off ICEs being priced off the road, so for a 3-5 purchase it still makes sense.
you need to be able to charge at home and be using one of the cheap ev electric tariffs for an ev to make sense, If you're relying primarily on public chargers (or even just paying standard electric tariffs per KWH at home) then an ev is a worse proposition than petrol/diesel right now IMO.
In november we bought a used EV to replace a diesel tiguan , it was a toss up between buying a used PHEV toyota rav 4 , or a used merc EQC, both the same price for the same aged car with similar mileage, but the rav 4 would have cost more per mile in fuel, more per year in VED (~£570), and more per year in insurance (~£500 more) ,more in servicing, it also would have been slower, less nice inside, noisier, and less nice to drive. It would however be able to do 300 miles between fills, and those fills would take 5 minutes, versus 200 miles and 40 minutes in the merc
List price, the BMW is £20k more than the Merc.
BMW lists at £68k, and good luck getting a discount on that (even if you are prepared to wait 6 months to get one). Bonkers!
Merc lists at £48k, but actually cost me £32k with 13 miles on the clock as a pre-reg. So, you are right, my maths were a little bit out. The actual difference is closer to £36k!
This is the first car we have ever leased. I usually buy outright, but the economics just don't work on EV's. £68k for the iX3 for what you get is insane. It only really works as a lease where somebody else takes the risk of depreciation, you never actually pay anything like £68k and through a salary sacrifice scheme with 0% deposit and the ability to hand the keys back whenever you want.
The whole economic model of car ownership is changing fast. Next stop in terms of charging and personal transport will be something altogether different as the concept of everybody owning a car that sits unused for more than 90% of the time is madness really, regardless of how it is powered.
All interesting stuff, but not the OP's dilemma. As I said - petrol ICE for the win!
BMW lists at £68k
Oh you are talking about the i4? Yeah they are pricey. I thought you meant the i3.
Assuming you never need to charge outside the home
You can still charge at home MOST of the time even if you make the occasional long trip, like most people do. One charge away from home doesn't negate all the savings you make the rest of the time.
The economics can stack up for used cars. As I've said before, we pay £160/m on a loan and save £80/mo on fuel. We'd have got a similar level of car for the price we paid if we'd gone petrol, but the fuel would be costing 10x more. So for us, no brainer in favour of EV.
The OP needs to do their own calculations, not listen to solarider who seems to have condemned the entire concept of electric motoring on the basis of his specific situation with two cars 🙂
The OP needs to do their own calculations, not listen to solarider who seems to have condemned the entire concept of electric motoring on the basis of his specific situation with two cars
To be fair, I was offering advice on the OP's situation in an entirely non pejorative way, and in response to him starting a thread on an internet forum requesting said advice. If he really wanted to just base his decision on his own opinion, you are right he should just do his own calculations. But since he asked.....
Any input welcomed. Ta.
The beauty of the internet is that he will now get a whole range of opinions. Some useful (yours) and some less so (mine), but he now has a wealth of conflicting and diverse real world experiences to merge with his own calculations, just as he asked.
Mission accomplished I would say, and I am sure he will continue to be enlightened even more as more people add their thoughts based on their own experiences. That's the way these forums work isn't it? Somebody asks for an opinion, we all share diverse and equally valid opinions and they form a better view but ultimately make their own decision in the end.
BTW, it's an iX3. You can definitely trust that I know what's sat on the driveway and it ain't an i3 or an i4, and having painstakingly done the calculations myself, I can tell you without fear of contradiction that the benefit is borderline (in my case).
Have you got kids, Solarider? They'll thank you for going EV as every ICE not sold is good for their health now and the future they'll live in.
The second-hand market is transparent, check out any second-hand site. There's a supply at what localy are attractive prices.
Your pessimism about battery life in either years or miles isn't based on user experience. Sure 10 years back some cars that had high charge rates compared with battery capacity and poor cooling systems suffered rapid capacity loss, notably the early Leafs, but there are lots of ten-year-old Zoés and Teslas which with lower charge rates and better cooling are still on their original batteries.
Your high speed return to the Alps probably left your tired and inattentive at some points(bin there done that), I find that long trips in the EV take longer but are safer and more relaxing - I just allow more time and enjoy the breaks. More people kill themselves driving to ski resorts than on the pistes - they'd do better wearing a bobble hat on the slopes and their ski helmet in the car. As someone who lives in a ski resort some of the year I can confidently say that skiers are more likely to be road hogs with bad driving habits than the population in general. The gendarmes know this too and amuse themselves collecting cars more than 30kmh over the limit in the local valley. BMW ix3 drivers conform to the sterotype and then some. Your posting style speaks volumes. 🙂
My insurance isn't any more expensive than the equivalent ICE, it's a Zoé 50, it's not stupip quick. However most EVs are indecently quick and drivers crash them about 10% more than average according to some reports I've seen. I'd like to see a breakdown of accident stats with comparisons with ICEs of equivalent performance because you can't compare Volvos and Ferraris but Volvos now have Ferrari performance.
Given how little it takes to write of an ICE car these days I really don't see EVs being much different.
Anyhow, given the EVs the OP is considering his drving style and needs are unlikely to have anything in common with yours, Solarider. 😉
Wowsers. So many ill informed pejorative statements!
Have you got kids, Solarider? They’ll thank you for going EV as every ICE not sold is good for their health now and the future they’ll live in.
That’s precisely why we went EV. Doesn’t mean that in every other respect of running an EV it has to be better than an ICE. In my experience it isn’t. The OP wasn’t asking about the ethics or environmental position of owning an EV. He was asking about owning and running one and the total breadth of the decision of whether to go EV or ICE in 2024 given his particular set of circumstances.
Your pessimism about battery life in either years or miles isn’t based on user experience.
Isn’t it? The existing generation of batteries degrade over time. That’s an inescapable fact. Their ability to hold charge diminishes over time. We have friends and family with 10 year old hybrids and EVs (Prius, Leaf) and the batteries have significantly diminished.
Your high speed return to the Alps probably left your tired and inattentive at some points
You are correct. That’s why we broke the journey with an overnight stay in Dijon and regular stops along the way. The stops were timed around fatigue and my need for a break. They lasted as long as we needed. They were not forced on us by the need to charge the EV and their duration was not dictated by the speed of charging which they would have been otherwise.
BMW ix3 drivers conform to the sterotype and then some. Your posting style speaks volumes. 🙂
Your ability to judge my driving style based purely on my vehicle choice is incredible, not only for its insight but for its judgemental lunacy and ability to cause ill informed offence. Well done you.
Anyhow, given the EVs the OP is considering his drving style and needs are unlikely to have anything in common with yours, Solarider. 😉
I am genuinely interested in how you are able to make judgements about my driving style?! Since owning an EV, the very real range anxiety has transformed my driving style. I don’t enjoy the rapid acceleration and too find it unnecessary in a family car. I drive everywhere in eco mode to prolong range. As a motorcycle rider my awareness and courtesy to other road users is pretty high. If you want to make B-road sweeping statements, what is your view on motorcyclists as car drivers? The general view (which is not to say that all are saints) is that they make pretty good ones but that piece of your puzzle is missing. Even ignoring the circumstantial evidence, I can assure you that I am capable behind the wheel which is not to say fast and aggressive. Fear not, you are safe sharing the roads with me, but even if I was the worst driver in the country, it wouldn’t change or invalidate my views on EV ownership.
Your response is sadly typical of the deterioration of some threads. Absolutely no comment relating to the OPs original question, but plenty of ill informed judgment of another user based on nothing but your self inflated opinion. Have you anything to offer the OP that he might find useful?
I came here to express an alternative opinion to the herd based on my experience. Perfectly valid to do so. I have chosen an EV and since the OP asked I have given my perspective on ownership. Since it differs from that of a few other users you have chosen to lower the tone and I have chosen to defend my position. Nobody has been quite as comically misjudged or off topic as you however so well done sir.
