SORN and "off the road" definition

Publicly accessable or barrier access....

And is the space specifically yours or for use of all the people in the block

RAC say not (FAQ's at the bottom)

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/what-does-sorn-mean/

Can I keep a SORN-registered car in a residential car park?
No, once a car has been registered with a SORN, it can only be parked or driven on private land. You may park a SORN-registered car on a driveway or in a private garage.

Your car would technically need to be on a private driveway and not in a car parking space as far as I know.

I’ve always taken it be must be on private land too - I can’t see how flat car parking counts as that. Time to pay up or get rid. Or find somewhere else to park it up.

But as a private owner with a shared right to use the car park (by virtue purely of being a private owner), how is it a public car park?

@trail_rat - source? If it is about accessibility, most private land isn't barriered?

I asked questions . I didn't state anything. I guess that makes the source you.

But you do know the answer here.

Go park it in Tesco car park. It's about as private as your flat.

Fight it and let us know how you get on - should make a good read on your blog!! 🤣

And is it insured?

@trail_rat, I was (surprisingly?) seeking a source for the relevance of your questions.

yes it is publicly accessible, no barrier. No it is not an individual private space for me.

Sounds like it is in deed private land but is not your private land ergo not a suitable sorn location.

Perhaps the factor has shopped you.

@the-muffin-man, I do like a challenge.

of course not!

You own the flat, not the land.  My son SORNed his car and we made sure it was stored on the drive, and not the parking spaces next to the house that anyone can use. He usually used a space.

No it is not an individual private space for me

Someone is probably pissed off there’s an unused car that never goes anywhere taking up a space then.

Parking wars can be epic!!

id guess that if its private parking, then its off the road

@trail_rat - source?

You don't own the land.

But anyway. I wish you good luck in your quest.

My position is that I have no idea.

But I have 2 questions.

Is it clear that there are restrictions on who can park in this car park?

Are you paying for this car park? Either a recurrent up keep fee or a one off pavement at the time of purchase?

To reiterate for those that haven't read it, the RAC that I assume are pretty savvy on this say that no, a residents car park doesn't count as off road.

Can I keep a SORN-registered car in a residential car park?
No, once a car has been registered with a SORN, it can only be parked or driven on private land. You may park a SORN-registered car on a driveway or in a private garage.

No need for anyone to guess at anything.

The land belongs to whoever pays the factor. It could therefore be shared amongst the house-owners. Therefore , it would not be "public" land.

However, I know that the likes of supermarket car parks are deemed "public" by dint of the fact that the public has access to them. If there is no private access arrangement (e.g. locked barrier) for the land then I think it would fall into the same category.

I don't know.

My gut feeling is "can anyone park there?" If yes, it's not SORNable. If it's a privately owned car park restricted to residents, it is.

Ask the DVLA.

Do what a chap round here does buy/borrow a small car transporter. Park the SORNed car on that.

Depends on your parking situation. The bays round my flat are classed as private and cars have been left there on SORN and not touched when the DVLA van comes round most months (known hotspot). They clamp, sticker and tow cars on the main road around the estate but the whole road and parking area by my block is private land with each flat getting a numbered space that they actually own. I can see how the bays you have as a free-for-all won't be classed as private ground though.

If you wait a few more days and you'll get collared for no insurance too! That'll make getting future insurance fun and cheap.

 The block is former Council-housing with a few flats still owned by them.  They factor it on behalf of all.

i’d wager if the flats and parking were once all council owned then when  the flats were sold nothing about the status of the carpark changed. It would have been a publicly owned, publicly managed , publicly accessible space. Even if it’s now managed for private tenants it’s presumably still owned by the council if there’s not bit that’s yours on the deeds and  there’s presumably public access - which can just be pedestrian access - so it very well may be deemed not to be ‘off the road’.

maybe easiest to just ask the DVLA why they deem it to be on a road. Who’s observed it to be so.

When I had a flat with a residents car park, I did own my car park space. There were restrictions in the deeds like I couldn't build on it etc but the land was owned by me and was highlighted in the plans as belonging to me. This was in Scotland.

Check your deeds.

@theotherjonv - define residential? plenty to guess at.

@trail_rat thanks for your input, not. You were nicer before.

Relating to where you live / reside.

As opposed to a commercial or public car park.

@maccruiskeen just checked my Land Certificate - I own the entire solum in common with other proprietors

Solum is the foundations of the building and wouldn't cover the car park unless your car park is underneath the flats.

@wwpaddler my apologies, I meant the entire area including the car park.

@theotherjonv - source? or are you guessing?

I would assume that it's the same as say Tesco's car park. Private but public access. Certainly my block in Leith had car parking that was private but used by the Sikh temple and others as parking. It was this access that changed it from private to publicly accessible.

No sources.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/what-does-sorn-mean/

source? The dictionary.

Look, you asked for thoughts, I've not only done that but actually provided a link to the second biggest motorists organisation's specific comment on parking in a residential car park. Sorry if it isn't what you want it to be, but that's what they say.

Can I keep a SORN-registered car in a residential car park?
No, once a car has been registered with a SORN, it can only be parked or driven on private land. You may park a SORN-registered car on a driveway or in a private garage.

But go on, challenge it, that'll clarify for your specific case.

Is there a “DVLA van” that goes round checking on sworn and taxed cars and whatever? That sounds a bit TV detector van-ish and I can’t believe that in 2023 the DVLA have the time and staff to drive round looking for trouble!

There is every so often there will be a clamped car done by DVLA.

burko73
Full Member
Is there a “DVLA van” that goes round checking on sworn and taxed cars and whatever? That sounds a bit TV detector van-ish and I can’t believe that in 2023 the DVLA have the time and staff to drive round looking for trouble!

They’ve certainly been round here clamping and putting a big ‘untaxed vehicle’ sticker on the window.

Yep, came round here earlier in the year. Saw about 10 clamped cars in various streets including some pretty out the way places

 if you are interested in my crap. here’s my blog about emigrating:

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Shouldn't there be a comma before assholes?

Not only that, you've spelt it as if you're some septic from across the pond.

And no point arguing with trail_rat....

Now move your motor!

I can see why you'd assume it was ok and equally I can see the argument why it isn't (just too many people who have free access and shared ownership and no space that is "yours" if I understand correctly).  The RAC guidance won't be a specific statement of law but I suspect they know their onions on this stuff.

You could be in the vagaries of case law about what is private land here.

Is it that horrendous to mot/tax/insure it and then get it sold if appropriate instead of the aggro and risk of fighting (especially if also not insured)?

If it were me I'd not count on winning this one with DVLA or on any one answer here being definitive (especially mine😜).

Is there a “DVLA van” that goes round

They’ve certainly been round here clamping and putting a big ‘untaxed vehicle’ sticker on the window.

Again I don't know but, I would be surprised if it's proactive. More likely they've responded to a complaint.

Again I don’t know but, I would be surprised if it’s proactive.

They do have at least some cars fitted with ANPR which they use for roaming enforcement teams.
I assume they target areas which are known to have high numbers of untaxed cars (possibly using the fixed cameras to identify them) so a bit more proactive than individual level complaints.

alric
Free Member

id guess that if its private parking, then its off the road

TBH the "off road" part of it is a problem, it's just misleading, the actual requirements have very little to do with roads. The documentation you get from the DVLA for a SORN'd car is really poor too, it essentially just washes their hands of it and says that if you want to be sure you can park it in a particular place, ask your council. As a car owner it's always up to you to know and follow the rules no matter how weird they might be, but I reckon they set you up to fail on this one with all the "off road" references.

(Imagine being told "you can't drive this car across a football field" and going "right, no worries, I'll avoid driving it across a football field" then you get a fine and they say welll akkkshually, our legal definition of "football field" includes any public place that you can physically fit a football, fancy you not knowing that)

I got a fine letter for one of mine and even then the language was all "you have used the car on the road", which I think was probably true but only because the legal definition of "using it on the road" includes loads of things that literally are not using it on the road. So I thought, what the heck, and sent them a letter back just saying, politely, "I've not used it on the road, not by any sane definition anyway, I don't think I've done anything wrong and I don't think any reasonable person could have avoided this", and it was dropped. Though, I should say that the lag in the system meant I didn't get the fine letter til after I'd disposed of the car anyway, so I didn't have to worry about towing etc.

I mention that because a friend had his towed, from an off-road parking space which like in this thread he assumed would be fine and was 100% "off road", but which they considered to be public- and that was an absolute shitshow. He came home, found his car gone. Reported it stolen, was going through all the insurance etc, the next week he gets a letter through the door saying "we've towed your car and we're charging per day it's in the pound, starting the day we towed it"- so even though he taxed it and got it as soon as poss it still cost him a packet. Proper pulling-your-pants-down stuff imo

Cynical - are you not a solicitor by training?  Look up the legislation (and case law?) and pick your battles.

a sorn declaration is shall not be used on a public road (this is different from say drink drive / insurance law which is road or other public place).  The key definition then is public road, which is defined in Scotland as being “any road which a roads authority have a duty to maintain”.  Prima facie it seems like if your deeds do really say you are one of the owners, then you may have a defence.  BUT I would just caution that all the houses across the street from me have deeds saying they own a share of some parking spaces but since the deeds were created the council adopted those spaces as part of the highway.  The only way you will find out is by asking the council - it would surprised me if they are ex cooncil hooses and the land was not adopted.

@alpin

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Shouldn’t there be a comma before assholes?

Not only that, you’ve spelt it as if you’re some septic from across the pond.

And no point arguing with trail_rat….

Are your top two comments a formatting thing? TBH I found the editing clunky AF, I hated it. Much to learn ... and I'd assumed a comma wouldn't work in a URL (do correct me if so).  And yes I prefer the US spelling, I don't know why.

@poly yep I was a lawyer (not a great one) if you can point me to any SORN caselaw I'd gladly read it - I didn't find any and also assumed it was too low-value to have gone up the appeals courts route.  As the car park is owned by private individuals (including the Council) I had thought that I have a reasonable argument - I don't think the Roads Authority have anything to do with maintenance, only the Council - in their capacity as a factor only.

I can pay £80 (and potentnially get into more trouble) or fight it - Thursday being the last day to do so!

I don’t think the Roads Authority have anything to do with maintenance, only the Council

poly didn’t say The Roads Authority -  ‘a roads authority’. There are numerous agencies responsible for maintaining roads including  councils. Local to me it’s an agency made up of three local councils.

and ‘ownership’ and responsibility for are not the same thing. Your V5 makes you responsible for the car but doesn’t require  you to own it.

If you wish to fight it a starting point is

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199798/ldjudgmt/jd981022/clarke01.htm

It says a car park is not a road. Doesn't matter for much RTA stuff which is road or public place. Sorn laws refer to a public road. So if it isn't a road you can Sorn a car there.

Put your address in here and then click the blue line over the road/car park.  This will tell you if the road is publicly maintainable.  Use it all the time at work as land is often recorded as private but the road and verges have since been adopted.

https://www.findmystreet.co.uk/map

This will tell you if the road is publicly maintainable.

more worryingly it seems to show the OP’s carpark has fallen into the sea

Stick a card in teh window saying OWned by person in Flat .... Sorn registered but insured.

Spooky’s link is England only but here is a resource from ECC which might help.  It presumably comes with a bunch of caveats that it is not guaranteed to be correct.  Adopted does not mean they own the land it means they maintain it.  I would not assume your factoring includes the parking spaces themselves unless you have some very explicit evidence it does (Like being charged extra for resurfacing or relining etc).  The council adopted the Un-allocated parking spaces here, but the factor maintains the grass verge and flower bed surrounding it.  It took about six months to clear that up so hopefully the ECC map is better than the WLC one - they ended up going back to archives and getting hand drawn maps - not that it’s stopped the psycho across the street shouting at anyone she doesn’t recognise using them!

you may be right that a sorn case is too low value to have made it to published appeal case - but it’s not new law so there is always the possibility of a belligerent cock (either at DVLA or car owner) determined to prove a point.

I’ve dealt with the DVLA over a car that was basically a box of bits, the previous didn’t SORN it and neither did I, not realising I had to as it hadn’t been on the road for some years. They were pretty helpful when I spoke to them and no fines were issued, despite the automated threat letters.

We have six spaces at the back of our house. The whole area is owned by 3 houses, including ours. I'd expect I could park a SORN car there because the area is privately owned.
It is publicly accessible though, nothing to stop anyone driving onto it... but then there's nothing to stop anyone driving onto most people's driveways?

At what point does a shared driveway/set of spaces become a publicly accessible car park?

Daft question but is every flat now privately owned or might some still be Council owned which would make the council a co owner. Not sure if that would have any impact on your case but I know a couple of years ago when my neighbour looked at resurfacing our "private" road it was complicated by the council still owning one of the houses.

That is super helpful spooky_b329 (for something else I need). Thanks.

@irc thanks but I do wonder if that applies to SORN - potentially different areas of law.

@poly where is this ECC resource?

Ah sorry linky no posty earlier!  Here you go: https://cityofedinburgh.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=fa297f2feb4e4beea8ce6b74943cfb51

If you want to follow the legislation it goes something like this: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/3025/contents/made  defines the process of SORN.  s2 clearly says "public road", which is consistent with the requirement to pay duty of vehicles kept or use on a "public road" https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/section/1   I don't think it explicitly defines public road.  However the Road Traffic Act does, by cross reference to other legislation.  In Scotland that legislation is: the  Roads (Scotland) Act 1984: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/54/part/I/crossheading/general-powers-and-duties-of-roads-authorities

You have to go back to the law or have someone who understands it - see poly's link above. Some toss written by the AA social media intern isn't helpful. The question is whether it's on a public road or not. "Publicly accessible" discussion is irrelevant.

The question is whether it’s on a public road or not. “Publicly accessible” discussion is irrelevant.

The publicly accessible discussion is whether or not that constitutes a public road isn't it?
you can't know if it's on a public road is you don't know what constitutes a public road?

The publicly accessible discussion is whether or not that constitutes a public road isn’t it?

No.

Is there a “DVLA van” that goes round checking on sworn and taxed cars and whatever? That sounds a bit TV detector van-ish and I can’t believe that in 2023 the DVLA have the time and staff to drive round looking for trouble!

I've just remembered, I got caught out years ago. I had a motorbike, lost my job and couldn't afford to maintain it so pulled it onto my garden path and SORNed it.

Fast forward, I don't know, a few months, I'd got a new job and thought "right lets see what state it's in." I dropped in back onto the road to make a start on fettling it.

I came out to it later to find it clamped. I don't know how long it'd been out there but it wasn't long. The fact it was SORNed hadn't entered my head, I'd simply forgotten. The clamper I'm certain wasn't the DVLA, it was either the council or someone random like NCP. Could've been the NCP operating on behalf of the council I suppose, now I come to think about it.

Exactly the sort of arsey letter you'd expect. I paid up promptly because I didn't want the DVLA to get wind of it, in a way I was grateful for them making me realise.

Then once they'd got my money, the bastards reported me to the DVLA anyway.

I’d assumed a comma wouldn’t work in a URL (do correct me if so).

You can, there's a series of special characters defined in the original spec. I can see it potentially causing problems though, I bet the STW forum's rendering attempt would shit itself for a start. Plus going off piste might make viewers think "hm, that's unusual" and be sceptical of clicking it.

These days you can put way more mad shit in a URL than you'd first think. Arabic URL, anyone? Though browsers are - rightly - getting increasingly fussy about shenanigans. I could for instance technically register a microsoft domain using a Unicode character that looks like an 'o' but isn't, but a modern browser will take one look at that and go "yeah right."

The vehicles excise act uses a different definition of road from the RTA. Access has nothing to do with it.

The test is whether it is a road maintained at public expense.

"

c Public road”— (a)  in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, means a road which is repairable at the public expense, and (b)  in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the M1Roads (Scotland) Act 1984

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/section/62

So there are two arguments for the OP.

1 A carpark is not a road. As per my link upthread.

2 This carpark is not repairable at public expense because he and other owners share the maintenance costs.

This is a tribunal decision regarding a car in a council carpark getting a ticket for not displaying a tax disc.

Result- appeal upheld. The carpark was not a road. Hence no offense. Council not entitled to issue ticket.

Not sure if this is relevant, but if you speed, drive the wrong way, drink and drive etc. in Tesco car park then you can still be done by the Police because even though it is privately owned it is accessible by the public

@dmorts

Not relevant. Those offences have a different definition of road and can also be committed in other public places like car parks.

For example drink driving

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/5

The excuse duty offense VERA 1994 S29 refers only to a road maintained at public expense.

if you speed, drive the wrong way, drink and drive etc. in Tesco car park

Are you sure? That doesn't make sense. Drink and drive perhaps, the offence is "drunk in charge of a motor vehicle." Does Tesco take out a Traffic Order to have speed limits set on its carparks? Have officially compliant One Way signs?

Reckless Driving maybe, rather than speeding, or variations thereof?

The clamper I’m certain wasn’t the DVLA, it was either the council or someone random like NCP. Could’ve been the NCP operating on behalf of the council I suppose, now I come to think about it.

DVLA doesn't do the dirty work themselves.  They pay contractors (or I suspect allow the contractor to keep some/all the proceeds).

Are you sure? That doesn’t make sense. Drink and drive perhaps, the offence is “drunk in charge of a motor vehicle.” Does Tesco take out a Traffic Order to have speed limits set on its carparks? Have officially compliant One Way signs? <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Reckless Driving maybe, rather than speeding, or variations thereof?</span>

Drink driving, careless driving, dangerous driving, failing to report an accident, using a mobile phone etc all apply in a supermarket car park.  They are offences defined in the road traffic act - and fall into the "or public place" part of the defintion.  Speeding is usually pursued under the Road Traffic Regulation Act which is separate legislation and would apply only where a TRO etc is in place (ie. not usually a supermarket car park - although it could apply in Al's car park if it is council maintained!).   However as irc says its irrelevant because the SORN/Vehicle excise rules are for a public road not simply a road or public place  (the RTA does actually use the same definition of "public road" its just that 90% of the RTA applies on any "road or public place" which is differently defined).  BUT the key question for Al is to establish that the place he left his car is not maintained by the local authority.  My guess is he's paying for the grass to be cut not lines to be painted on the car park and the council pay for the car park even if he owns a share of the land under it.  I've not seen his deeds, nor do I know his address to check the ECC map.

BUT the key question for Al is to establish that the place he left his car is not maintained by the local authority. My guess is he’s paying for the grass to be cut not lines to be painted on the car park and the council pay for the car park even if he owns a share of the land under it.

Sorry, even if it is council-maintained, it's still not a road?

Short of wading through actual legislation - which I don't care sufficiently to bother and am probably not equipped to interpret anyway - all I can find on gov.uk is 'off the road' (literally in single inverted commas).

The RAC advice is ambiguous, it says you can SORN on private land but not a public road, a public car park is neither of those things. The AA just directs you to gov.uk.

Sorry, even if it is council-maintained, it’s still not a road?

If it's part of the LA's adopted highway you'd need to have a lot of free time, and some amazing advocacy skills (or big pockets to rent them) to be willing to test that point in court.  I say that without knowing where Al lives - but knowing the sort of parking areas that were built around Scottish council housing.  It's very likely it's an area immediately adjacent to something we would all agree is a road.

Stuff such as double yellow lines and council streetlamps are also good indicators of a publicly maintained road.  If you try and report a defect in the car park such as a pothole or streetlight not working, the council website will normally be very quick to send you packing, stating it's not publicly maintained and therefore not their problem.

Maybe that's a shortcut for Al then? Try and report a defect and see if they say "nothing to do with us"?

I love this thread btw, I knew from my own experience that this could be a murky area but it's pushed back my boundaries of ignorance, now I know it's incomprehensible in more ways than I even suspected before.

I worked beside somebody who had a very similar argument regarding 'private' parking near his house.

All I'll say is it cost him a lot more than the initial fine.

If it is a car park  clearly seperated from the road by fencing kerbs etc  then it isn't a road. Therefore there is no requirement for a vehicle parked there to be taxed if it has been SORNed. The fine is not valid.

This traffic specialist lawyer

https://thedrivingsolicitor.co.uk/2019/03/11/road-or-other-public-place-where-do-driving-laws-apply/

Gives this judgement as proving that a car park is not a road.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199798/ldjudgmt/jd981022/clarke01.htm

Gives this judgement as proving that a car park is not a road.

It's irrelevant. That case deals with proper construction of a different term in a different act for a different purpose to OP's requirements.

In any case - OP should go (or should have gone, if the deadline has passed) with the approach of explaining the situation. I'm sure there are enough cut and dried cases of unlicensed vehicles on public roads that they won't bother bickering about some marginal unclear case...

I disagree. It is a good argument  that if a car park is not a road for parts of the Road traffic Act then in the absence of any better definition it isn't a road for the purposes of the Vehicles Excise Act either.

Anyway, I agree that if the OP argues the case they may back off. If it goes anywhere the burden of proving that the location was both a road and maintainable at public expense falls on them.  Are they going to go to the trouble for a case that is doubtful.

All this tells me is that the definition is woefully undefined and really needs clarifying. How hard is it to include off road land you're entitled to park in?

FWIW I've sorn'd a car off the road on a patch that probably falls under the same dubious status.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2742/schedule/4

Interestingly defines lots of things but doesn't define 'public road'. So while you can reasonably argue (I agree) that the Road Traffic Act does define it, this (VED/SORN) is not a RTA matter and so not necessarily relevant. In the end, if the VED / DVLA think a residential car park is in scope then they'll fine you and your only option is to appeal - and even then it won't necessarily go all the way to court to create a proper ruling, they'd probably let you off 'as goodwill' and then repeat again somewhere else.

Not a well written piece of legislation.

Well that's it then, isn't it.

Ignorance of the law is no defence, so we (you) have looked up the relevant legislation which covers VED/SORN and it says you can't park on a public road. A car park is clearly not a road regardless of who owns it unless "public road" is defined within the legislation to be something other that what any reasonable person would call a road, and it is not.

I agree, but where it isn't defined that is just opinion. A pretty reasonable one in my book, but just an opinion.

The man handing out the tickets disagrees, has a different one, and right now while I think he's wrong it's just a difference of opinion, and you need someone qualified to make a binding ruling between us.

As you say, the man on the Clapham omnibus would almost certainly agree with us and consequently I reckon a judge or court would too - but it wouldn't then get to that because like I said, they'd probably cancel it out of goodwill and that's not the same as defining the answer.

then in the absence of any better definition it isn’t a road for the purposes of the Vehicles Excise Act either

The relevant definition of the relevant term is in the law relevant to untaxed vehicles - specifically s64 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994. Someone posted this already. There is no mystery here.

Thanks all, glad to have brought about a good discussion.

@poly has it - that map shows my car park HAS been adopted (EH15 2LX if you are curious).  Yes I do pay to get the grass cut etc and there are no double yellows.  I guess I'll cough up, not much chance of them letting me off. I got away with it for nearly 2 years tho! I wonder what **** of a neighbour reported me.

Now to insure, tax, MOT and sell...(in what order, I am unsure!)