[Closed] Sometimes religion doesn't just invite ridicule, it positively begs for it

Out of interest have you ever been to a church/mosque/temple? Or are you beliefs based on what you think happens?

I think if you look back even 100 years in this country (UK) you didn't have a choice over your religion, it was something you were born into

its all about you figuring out the way to god, there isn't a step by step guide that guarantees success, so you have to figure it out yourself, which in turn promotes free thought

Yup, Catholic schools all the way through

This might be part of the reason you hold tihs point of view. I don't think Catholicism is quite like other varieties of Christianity.

If you don't believe in God then you don't believe in Hell either - happy days.

This might be part of the reason you hold tihs point of view. I don't think Catholicism is quite like other varieties of Christianity.

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I (perhaps foolishly) sometimes read the comments on YouTube videos and one thing I've noticed is that as the number of comments increases so does the chances of someone posting random religious proclamations.

It must be some kind of corollary to Godwin's Law. 😆

For example, I was watching [url=

TEDx talk about a guy demonstrating his ability for very fast mental calculations[/url] (he can multiply two 5 digit numbers in his head)

Random sanctimonious "I pity you" comment:
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Or here is an interesting [url= https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMByI4s-D-Y ]video from Veritasium about how the World's Roundest Object defines a kilogram[/url]. All good stuff, nothing terribly controversial.

Slightly unhinged and vaguely threatening "stop meddling" comment:
[img] [/img]

What I find fascinating about these examples is that they seem to openly criticise knowledge and understanding - as if that is now somehow ungodly.

Anti-science-ism is quite fashionable now but it has always been an issue.

Some people see science as a threat to their world view. On a more psychological level one might say that people are afraid of that which they don't understand.

What I find fascinating about these examples is that they seem to openly criticise knowledge and understanding - as if that is now somehow ungodly.

You are obviously pretty new to the internet, it is quite easy to find views that are completely out of kilter with the mainstream in the particular area.

Obvious, I suppose - if you agree with mainstream beliefs you tend not to post about it.

The earth is round, everyone, and the sky is blue!

I'm not sure ISIS would agree with you there as I don't think the Irish Nuns in the washhouses would have agreed last century.

Catholicism seems to be more about the organisation of the Church than it is about god, and as long as you pay lip service to 'God' and worship the church you are fine to do whatever you want.

The earth is round, everyone, and the sky is blue!

Pfft... the earth is an oblate spheroid and the sky isn't [i]really[/i] blue either:

😉

You are obviously pretty new to the internet,

Dude, I was on the internet when her friends called her Janet.

it is quite easy to find views that are completely out of kilter with the mainstream in the particular area.

Well yeah, but lots of monks, theologians etc in the past did plenty of good work advancing understanding of maths and physics. It wasn't ungodly then (as long as you didn't pick anything too contentious) so why is it becoming so now? Is it just a direct backlash again science for explaining away the "magic"?

If you can ignore the occasional (and perhaps inevitable) descent into name-calling, I always find this subject/debate fascinating. I'm an atheist, but would probably describe myself as an agnostic one. I definitely don't believe in any organised religion*, and while the various "God did it" explanations are all riddled with holes, I don't totally discount there being an all-powerful being (of sorts). I would, however, require proof of existence before believing it exists, which kind of defeats the point. I guess it's more a case of me thinking that there's an almost infinitely small chance that there's some alien being out there who perhaps caused the big bang, or sparked life on earth billions of years ago. Maybe. If it's true, I have faith 8) that science will find the answer :D. I clearly read too much Erich von Daniken as a kid...

Some questions that I've always wondered about:

1) What proportion of religious folk have found religion after becoming an adult? I.e., without having received religious instruction as a child. I'd bet it's not many. I suspect that it's surprisingly difficult to get a free-thinking adult with a moderate education to believe in god. Whereas if you take a child and tell them they are religious, it'll become part of their lives without them even realising it. It'll be hard to ever find out, as very few people will have grown up without being exposed to religion.

2) What would be the benefit to the world, of me becoming religious? If I found god (of any denomination) today, how would the world benefit? I've given it a lot of thought over the years, and have drawn a blank. The reverse also applies, if all believers somehow just stopped believing in god and all the rituals that go with it, and carried on their normal lives, would the world be any worse off? Apart from the collapse of any businesses that rely on religion, I think not. The follow-up to that is "well, what's the point of religion then?".

3) The real version of the previous question is "what's in it for me? How would/could believing in god benefit me personally?" And again, I've drawn a blank. I can't think of a situation, no matter how dire, where believing in god would be beneficial.

*I'd go as far as to say they are complete sloblock

The follow-up to that is "well, what's the point of religion then?"

Of course neither of these are an argument for [i]organised religions[/i] these are perfectly possible without, there's plenty of folk who help out neighbours without a deity telling them to.

1) What proportion of religious folk have found religion after becoming an adult? I.e., without having received religious instruction as a child. I'd bet it's not many

If you asked how many Teenagers change there mind, I doubt its many as they already know 'everything' so God has no place in a world where you know all the answers.

2) What would be the benefit to the world, of me becoming religious? If I found god (of any denomination) today, how would the world benefit? I've given it a lot of thought over the years, and have drawn a blank. The reverse also applies, if all believers somehow just stopped believing in god and all the rituals that go with it, and carried on their normal lives, would the world be any worse off?

Could be wrong though.

3) The real version of the previous question is "what's in it for me? How would/could believing in god benefit me personally?" And again, I've drawn a blank. I can't think of a situation, no matter how dire, where believing in god would be beneficial.

What proportion of religious folk have found religion after becoming an adult? I.e., without having received religious instruction as a child. I'd bet it's not many. I suspect that it's surprisingly difficult to get a free-thinking adult with a moderate education to believe in god.

I don't think it'd be hard to find them believing in some "greater force", but not perhaps organised religion. Although even there don't underestimate the desire to belong.

That reads, "me", "me", "me" which might be why you don't get religion. IMHO its about making peace with the fact that "me" isn't the most important thing in the world.

I guess it's more a response to those who claim religion is a positive force in the world. I'm just an average bloke, and I can't see how being religious would make me a better person. And since most people are also average Joes, the same applies. There's no moral value inherent in religious teachings that isn't also equally present in a secular lifestyle (both good and bad). As for religious charities being bigger than atheistic ones, a larger proportion of the population is religious, and so you'd expect religious charities to be bigger.

What would be the benefit to the world, of me becoming religious?

Not a lot really - better you spent that religion time working for a charity.

WillH

1) Church going upbringing so not relevant to me.
2) Actually help with some charity work - lunches for the homeless, food bank, and the Church itself - rather than just think about it. If you are a bit lazy as many of us are, you are more likely to get involved when someone who does it suggests it to you.
3) Ignoring the spiritual side, I play cricket again and my social circle is much wider than before.

And again, I've drawn a blank. I can't think of a situation, no matter how dire, where believing in god would be beneficial.

Some people would argue that both of those groups were/are running businesses and using religion to help raise funds and increase personal power.

Sometimes religion doesn't just invite ridicule, it positively begs for it

What proportion of religious folk have found religion after becoming an adult?

I suspect quite a few. When you're young, you're full of yourself - as people get older they often start to wonder what the point of it all is. Hence mid-life existential crises. Religion offers answers that some people find appealing. I think probably some people realise they don't actually give a shit how the universe was created, they'd rather simply feel loved instead, and belong to something. Religion can offer this.

How would/could believing in god benefit me personally?

That's like saying 'why should I watch Game of Thrones?' If it appeals to you, then watch it, you might enjoy it. If it doesn't appeal, you probably won't like it. If you're looking for a series to get into then you could give it a try if you like fantasty stuff. However if you don't like it there's really no point in watching it - and with TV, people accept this (mostly!).

Cheers for the responses.

Mefty, you may have helped me answer one of the questions - I suspect the difference between 'being religious' and 'going to church' (or belonging to the social group associated with that religion) is the key. If I somehow went to sleep tonight and woke up tomorrow believing in a god, I probably wouldn't actually go to the relevant church/temple at all. I'm not really into social gatherings (I am, in my darling wife's words, a social retard). So peer pressure to do the right thing probably wouldn't be much of an issue. But then again the peer pressure argument is equally valid for secular groups who do charity work. If you're religious and the sort of person who feels compelled to help the needy, and if tomorrow it was proved beyond contest that there is no god, that a god - any god - could not possibly exist, you'd still do good stuff just because it's the right thing to do. I struggle with the idea that religion somehow encourages more charitable work. Peer pressure through social groups, yes. But specifically because that social group is religious? I'm not convinced.

I struggle with the idea that religion somehow encourages more charitable work.

I think some do - I think Islam (the one that we've already derided on this thread for being prescriptive and indoctrinating) requires you to do charitable work - it's one of it's fundamental Tennents aka five pillars of Islam.

Well yeah, but lots of monks, theologians etc in the past did plenty of good work advancing understanding of maths and physics

[url= http://americanhumanist.org/humanism/I_Was_an_Atheist_in_a_Foxhole ]andyfla...[/url]

Molgrips... maybe I'm not old enough to have had an existential crisis yet. I do often lie on the lawn at night and stare at the stars and wonder what the hell it's all about (life, that is). But in a distinctly curious/awed-by-the-pale-blue-dot sort of way, rather than feeling like I don't belong. It's positively life-affirming.

As for getting old and lonely and wanting to feel loved, to belong - I can understand getting that from being part of a social group (perhaps a church) but not from just suddenly believing in a god which only exists if you believe in it. Maybe for many the church is the only social group available?

(1) There is no shortage of social retards in church congregations.
(2) I have never felt compelled to help the needy, but I ended up doing more because of my sporadic attendance at church, not through peer pressure really. Someone just asked us if we could manage to cook a dessert and we did, since then we helped out more and more. I don't think the church has a monopoly on doing good by any means, but what it does have is incredible reach into the community at all levels which makes it very accessible and potentially very effective.

You can get naked anywhere you want in the UK either as that ex army guy knows, hes spent most of the last 8 years in jail.

<pedant>

I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but he's a former Royal Marine.

</pedant>

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

As Reverend William T. Cummings said "There are no atheists in foxholes"

I hate to upset the rev, but even if a person is screaming for "god's" help because he/she is in a foxhole and scared he/she might be killed, that's just a cultural reflex. Doesn't prove the existence of said sky fairy.

Nul Point.

maybe I'm not old enough to have had an existential crisis yet

I didn't say you were going to have one. Not everyone needs a meaning in life. If the question is "What's it all about?" my answer is "that's up to you"

Not sure about you, but if everyone else decided to abandon religion there's a lot of charities that are based around religion and doing the right thing, and whilst there are Atheist organisations they are much much smaller, so its my feeling that the world would be a much more selfish place without religion and the people who are drawn to it.

Sorry but that is nonsense, and quite insulting nonsense at that. Whilst it is undeniably true that there are some religious charities that are doing good work (although one could always question their motives) there are plenty of non religious ones doing the same. N.B. non religious in this context shouldn't be conflated with Atheist.

Another inevitable conclusion from this statement is that religious people are only generous and kind because of their religion and not because of anything "good" within themselves. Personally I'm an atheist but I'd have thought that many religious people would be offended by this.

I would agree charity wont end if religion does
you can also argue it the other way [ equally poor;y] at the last supper [ iirc] jesus says to one of his disciples [ who is not coming as he is helping the poor] Ye have the poor with ye always- Some victorian christians took this as dont help the poor it is in the bible that they will always be here.

Matthew 26:11

One of those both groups do and do not do charity work and neither can claim ownership of it
Personally i would argue some religious charity work is about getting converts and is often unhelpful - Aids/condoms being a current example though they exist from much earlier "interventions"

Not the old trope about atheists in foxholes. Easily discounted:

[img] &xsize=640&ysize=640[/img]

They are standing next to a tree not in a fox hole

Perhaps it would be a bit dark in the foxhole to get them all in and a photo?

Surely Team America "**** yeah!" has night vision

Possibly. Perhaps they don't have a camera adapter? Or do you mean they are cyborgs?

The point was that some idiot reverend said "There are no atheists in foxholes." This led to a bunch of soldiers who are atheists and actually are in foxholes to show it to be false.

It only takes one atheist in a foxhole to say so to make the statement redundant. I don't think they live there 100%. I don't think there's space for cookers, loos and the like. Perhaps they pop out to take a photo every now and then.

I apologise for the foxhole comment, it was meant in jest, can we please get back to ridiculing religions please ?

Following my earlier post about the interfaith bike ride a short writeup and couple of photos :

http://bikecroydon.com/?p=114

[i]"Whether religious or not, we always find common ground with people on a bike ride, it’s one of life’s great levellers"[/i]

I know it's ages ago, but I was just reminded of the weird hatred of white people with dreads earlier in the thread. I spent last weekend at a festival in Scotland and there was lots of white people with dreads there - all the ones I spoke to were lovely.

I bet they are having a much more enjoyable life than the angry judgemental types on here.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.906364582735946.1073741841.164885350217210&type=3

there was lots of white people with dreads there - all the ones I spoke to were lovely.

*I have for some time suspected that current levels of finger-pointing, cringingly shallow piped pop music, minority-hatred, celeb-worship, consumerism, conservatism, fake tan, hairpieces, drainpipe trousers, painted eyebrows on girls and open hatred and mistrust of men with long hair/beards suggests a strong possibility that we are living in a retro-stylee version of McCarthy era America. Except now technology allows short-haired men to gather in virtual 'forums' (like street corners combined with a love television studio and teleporters) to share and disseminate their hatred (anonymously or otherwise). Great progress, and we call things 'memes' and 'things' now instead of those dreadful old fashioned terms such as 'hip' or 'cool'.

*combined with a [s]love[/s] live TV studio. Tsk.

🙂

You're supposed to hate them like 50's man* hated those white longhairs -"Can't stand those no-good deceptive pretentious Commie beatnik good-for-nothing prevert lesbian black-lovin' girliemen *spit*!"

Yeah does seem like a bit of that going on.

molgrips - Member

Anti-science-ism is quite fashionable now but it has always been an issue.

Ironically, it's now much more easy for anti-science people to declaim their ignorance due to science- we've invented the perfect channel and created the perfect audience for it with the internet.

richc - Member

I should imagine its more than you think, as most people slowly realise the older they get and the more they learn, the less they know which makes people question the universe and their place in it.

And of course, the older you get, the greater the fear of death becomes.

And of course, the older you get, the greater the fear of death becomes.

May'be, personally I don't think that's the case though. Think about how you believed the world worked when you were 16, 20, 25, 35, 40 then 45 ...... and I am sure you would be embarrassed by what you believed as "fact" at those different stages of your life, why should your views on religion be any different.

Fear of death seems to be a handy one to trot out in an attempt to discredit people's views who have more experience of life.

Wow, how defensive? Why would you take my post as an attempt to discredit people's views? I think it's natural that as you age you become more aware of your own mortality and think more about what might come next, when you're 16 the summer's forever. Pretty much a given, this.

May'be, personally I don't think that's the case though. Think about how you believed the world worked when you were 16, 20, 25, 35, 40 then 45 ...... and I am sure you would be embarrassed by what you believed as "fact"

Nope. Thought about it when I was 13. Nothing's happened in between to change my mind (lots to reinforce it though), least of all the continuous, repetitive blatherings of religious muppets continuing to not get the point.

"Not only is the universe queerer than we suppose, it's queerer than we CAN suppose" - JBS Haldane.

That includes, of course, supposing that there's a "god"...

My point about age changing perspective and views based on experience wasn't just limited to religion I was thinking about opinions on pretty much everything.

I recently spent some time with some cousins kids who are ~19 and the shit that they came out with as 'fact' left me feeling like my brain was bleeding; unfortunately I'm sure I was exactly the same when I was 19, don't get me wrong they are nice kids, just full of shit :).

If your views on things are the same now as they were when you were a teenager, I would be very surprised! May'be you were just super clever and insightful....

You should rethink things throughout your life but it doesn't follow that you should change your position. You can even find that you arrive at the same destination by a different road. 16 year old me was an idiot but he sometimes got things right, sometimes for the right reasons, sometimes for wrong, sometimes just pretty much at random.

If your views on things are the same now as they were when you were a teenager

Not everything, just the "god" argument.

If your views on things are the same now as they were when you were a teenager, I would be very surprised! May'be you were just super clever and insightful....

mine have got worse ha ha ha ha

Not everything, just the "god" argument.

I guess my extremely poorly made point was with more experience you may even change your mind on this view, who knows... as you were more than likely just as certain about other opinions in the past but now you have a different perspective, just because you have a long held belief doesn't mean that its right (or wrong)

BTW this isn't supposed to be condescending

Wow, how defensive? Why would you take my post as an attempt to discredit people's views? I think it's natural that as you age you become more aware of your own mortality and think more about what might come next, when you're 16 the summer's forever. Pretty much a given, this.

I wasn't attempting to discredit your view, its as valid as mine. I was just pointing out that it's common lazy statement made about 'Coffin dodgers' and religion and that may not be true as if you believe in an afterlife why should you be scared of it? I have had several relatives that have been happy to 'move on' as they had done everything they wanted and wanted to see what comes next, they didn't appear to be living in fear.

Personally I'm not happy with the concept of afterlife, I think this is it but that's only my opinion.