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Not me I hasten to add…
Someone close to me works in a place where a colleague discovered a decommissioned firearm in a works archive. Apparently it had once been mounted on a plaque. Don’t know how effective the decommissioning is as it has probably been stashed away for 70+ years (I’m surmising here).
Anyway she has taken a shine to this thing and keeps it in her desk, and occasionally waves it about in the office.
How best to deal with this? I would thought that if it had some value or provenance then it should be locked away, and if it has none then it should be disposed of.
Either way it shouldn’t be pointed at people.
Either way it shouldn’t be pointed at people.
Exactly.
police armed response unit!
anonymous call to the police, saying someone has a gun.
Armed response flashbang the room and pile in. Realise its decommissioned, she poops herself and hopefully they take it away for disposal.
Alternatively, when she is away from her desk, nab it, and angle grind it in half.
Out of interest, when she waves it about, is it in a jokey way? Or is it some sort of weird power trip?
I would personally would say if you point that at me, i will spin kick it out of your hand (alternate methods are available, such as the flying head butt, the judo chop etc)
Yeah i think the police need an anonymous tip-off about that tbh.
Jokey apparently. But others in the office don't see it that way.
Print off Section 5 of the Firearms Act and leave it on her desk, that should hopefully scare her into handing it in to the police
Set it in jelly.
Far too little info to make any form of assessment I'm afraid.
Official police response would likely lie anywhere on a sliding scale of ,"SFW?" to full armed response. So:
What sort of firearm is it?
How was it deactivated?
What is the nature of the "waving it around the office"? ie what words are used? How exactly is the item waved? What does the person waving the item gain by doing so?
Without those answers we're surmising as much as your post appears to do.
Either way it shouldn’t be pointed at people.
Assuming that it has been effectively decommissioned, then there is no harm (other than it being a matter of poor taste) in waving it at people. It is, effectively, a toy gun isn't it? And children wave toy guns around a lot.
Best way to deal with it would be to speak to gun-waver and ask them to stop, or gun-waver's manager.
**EDIT - IANA firearms law expert
A quiet word with her first and if she does not stop her boss / HR?
Personally I'd be well annoyed and its not acceptable behaviour in any way
Jokey apparently. But others in the office don’t see it that way.
I'm just editing a load of our firm's HR policies (oh joy).
This probably falls foul of five or six of them.
Have a word with her or your line manager (or both) that it's making you uncomfortable, let them deal with it.
Assuming that it has been effectively decommissioned, then there is no harm (other than it being a matter of poor taste) in waving it at people. It is, effectively, a toy gun isn’t it? And children wave toy guns around a lot.
Assumption is the Mother of all FU's.
And go try waving it in Oxford Street...
OP works for the government - probably a high ranking minister, is it Suella? I claim my £5 Argos voucher.
It is, effectively, a toy gun, and children wave toy guns around a lot.
Yeah nothing wrong with an adult waving a "toy" gun.
Suggest she waves around at people next time she goes shopping. I am sure people will find it hilarious. They might even show their appreciation by letting her have things for free.
Have a word with her or your line manager (or both) that it’s making you uncomfortable, let them deal with it.
It genuinely isn't me! I was told about it last night and was thinking WTF? But on reflection this morning what could be an ill-conceived bit of "bants" by an idiot could get them dismissed or in trouble with the Police.
It's possibly illegal to possess it, but it does depend what it is
Deactivated firearm legislation was updated in 2016 and this changed things including a new requirement to register with the home office.
Advise management to contact the police, ARV might turn up but not in a flash bang way
As above. You guns are really obviously toy guns now. Red/orange muzzles etc
Take a decommissioned firearm onto the street and you'll be looking down the barrels of a surprising number of weapons.
It should be stored/on show properly or destroyed.
Try pulling a blunt katana out of your drawer and waving it about see how long that lasts.
Why would anyone have a BLUNT katana?
Instant dismissal I'd have thought ! As a minimum.
Harry_the_Spider
Don’t know how effective the decommissioning is as it has probably been stashed away for 70+ years (I’m surmising here).
Decommissioning usually involves filing down or removing the firing pin (and possibly other things also), meaning that even if it was loaded, it couldn't fire a bullet. I don't think you have safety concerns, but it does sound like you work with a bit of a knob
Yeah i think the police need an anonymous tip-off about that tbh
and then
police armed response unit!
Don't forget to have a camera set up.
or
Set it in jelly.
👍🤣🙃
Who hold the licences and certification for the firearm?
Laws changed and clarification must be saught. There is the potential that this is now an illegally held firearm. If no one knows remember that ignorance is no defence in law.
Jokey apparently. But others in the office don’t see it that way.
I'd be telling her straight to stop waving that ****ing gun around or she's getting reported to either bosses or police or both!
On the other hand telling the police that someone is waving a gun around could end up with someone being shot, its happened with less than a decomissioned gun before. So maybe tell someone else first.
Escalate! Get a semi-auto Nerf gun and bombard her with nerf darts each time she does it.
My last place (US-based multinational) would have had me instantly dismissed for that. Totally against company policy. I'd probably have been greeted at the door by Plod too.
Cast it in concrete, not jelly, but her HR should be having a very strong word with her in any case.
1. Tell her to hand it in ASAP. It matters not what she thinks but what others think & most pertinently what the law thinks. It is not her choice to make.
2. If not, it's a job for the 5-0 with as much info as you can manage. Not the kind of thing taken lightly & I'd expect a fairly robust response, but that will be on her.
Decommissioning usually involves filing down or removing the firing pin (and possibly other things also),
It involves a whole lot more than that and deactivation (note, NOT 'decommissioning') standards have got stricter and stricter over the years, as earlier methods were easy to 'reactivate'. Barrels will be blocked with weld or steel rods and/or have slots cut in them, breech faces will be milled at an angle to prevent reworking. Mechanisms are welded up on self loaders or automatics to prevent cycling and all pressure bearing parts modified in some way. Removing the firing pin only would be pointless, as it would be a 5 minute job for anyone with access to a lathe to make a new one.
A gun needs to be deactivated to home office standards, but if it has it it no longer legally a firearm. It must have a certificate to say it has been deactivated to home office standards and be stamped with a deactivation proof mark by the London or Birmingham proof house. No proof mark and no certificate and it's legal status is dubious.
keeps it in her desk, and occasionally waves it about in the office.
I'd probably say when you're staring down the barrel of HR, you've gotta ask yourself a question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?
I can understand the novelty, but keeping a real gun in your desk drawer at work is not normal behaviour whatever its perceived or actual status.
It's surely a police matter. Maybe tell them "an old gun has been found and we don't know what to do with it," your friend doesn't need to make it personal.
Why would anyone have a BLUNT katana?
Because you have been busy chopping through guns of course.
If its been stashed away for years I wouldnt be surprised if it wasnt deactivated to modern standards.
I can understand the novelty, but keeping a real gun in your desk drawer at work is not normal behaviour
Yeah that really, I would be threatening to call the cops I think. Or at least speak to her manager to get them to threaten to call the cops. The advice about it's legal status as per @blokeuptheroad should be enough to put the willies up anyone shouldn't it?
the problem is (as with a lot of things) people are ignorant of the [I]actual[/I] law and instead rely on what they think in their heads is reasonable! There's no such thing in law as a "toy" gun. There's such a thing as an "imitation firearm" - which a toy gun automatically is, should it be realistic (this is why they do [I]not[/I] look realistic any more, or at the very least have a big red/orange bit painted on the barrel!)It is, effectively, a toy gun isn’t it? And children wave toy guns around a lot.
It's very much an offence to possess an imitation firearm in public unless you have a good reason (reenactment etc). So I'd suggest that if this decommissioned gun looks like a real gun then the lady is certainly breaking the law and the police would indeed be interested.
https://www.askthe.police.uk/faq/?id=587bc863-12db-eb11-bacb-0022483f57c9
As far as decommissioning goes my understand is, that it only need to fufill the latest standards if sold/transfered now, as an owner you have no requirement to retrospectively fulfill them otherwise. I'm aware that Martin-Henry rifles, can be in completely working condition, as they did not need to be decommissioned due to their age pre-2016.
Even if it is not still within the auspices of firearms legislation waving a replica or deactivated firearm at people in a manner likely to cause a reasonable person fear or alarm is a criminal offence likely to result in a custodial sentence. It strikes me as almost impossible to bring a something that looks like a gun out in an office environment and point it towards people and not cause fear or alarm. Even the worst employers I've had, and the worst "its just bantz" managers would surely see this as grounds for dismissal.
As far as decommissioning goes my understand is, that it only need to fufill the latest standards if sold/transfered now, as an owner you have no requirement to fulfill them otherwise. I’m aware that Martin-Henry rifle owners, can be in completely working condition, as they did not need to be decommissioned due to their age, pre-2016.
Completely different rules. Firearms owned as 'antiques or curios' come under section 58 of the firearms act. They can be owned without a licence and do not need to be deactivated (though some people choose to do so). However the type of firearm that can be owned under section 58 is tightly controlled by the home office. Generally they are muzzle loaders (original, not modern reproductions) or breech loaders chambered for long obsolete calibres (as in your Martini Henry example). The ratty old muzzle loading external hammer shotguns or flintlock rifles you sometimes see hanging on the walls of country pubs? They come under section 58 and don't need to be deactivated or on a license.
Deactivation tends to be used on more modern firearms, chambered for ammunition which is still manufactured and which would otherwise be covered by section 1, 2 or 5 of the firearms act.
As it happens I own a Martini Henry, but mine is licensed (section 1 not section 58) because it a shooter not a wall hanger. I put up a thread about it somewhere....
26. Notice, where required, must be given on or before the day on which the person first possesses the deactivated firearm or, as soon as reasonably practicable after that date. The notice must give a description of the deactivated firearm including, if known, the make, calibre and serial number of the firearm and state the person’s name and address. There is no need to notify if the person is in possession of the deactivated firearm for a period of 14 days or less.
Even if it is not still within the auspices of firearms legislation waving a replica or deactivated firearm at people in a manner likely to cause a reasonable person fear or alarm is a criminal offence likely to result in a custodial sentence. It strikes me as almost impossible to bring a something that looks like a gun out in an office environment and point it towards people and not cause fear or alarm. Even the worst employers I’ve had, and the worst “its just bantz” managers would surely see this as grounds for dismissal.
The seriousness of what she's doing should absolutely not be under estimated.
The seriousness of what she’s doing should absolutely not be under estimated.
Absolutely this.
There's criminal offences being committed there, so gross misconduct, straight to dismissal, do not pass go......
This would be instant dismissal in any company I’ve ever worked in.
At my current employer, a bank, i imagine I’d be facing an awful lot worse than just
being sacked
Office bants innit 🤷♂️
Colleague is a dick. Should be firmly told this and told to hand the firearm into the police, on the assumption this won't happen and contrition will not immediately follow (because colleague is a dick), should be promptly referred to the police. As Polly says, they will be unlikely to take a kind view of it, management an even dimmer view of a police visit, such that at the very least should be sufficient to see said colleague removed from post and at least temporarily improve the workplace considerably.
works in a place where a colleague discovered a decommissioned firearm in a works archive.
I think the important question here is, what sort of work place has this sort of stuff in an archive? Ours is full of old fax machines and stuff.
Get her to read this or better call the police and ask them to come and collect it for destruction
What sort of workplace has a decommissioned firearm in the archive?
What sort of workplace has a decommissioned firearm in the archive?
I can't help but think it's likely to be a museum, university or the like, you know, something with public access, where being seen waving a firearm around is likely to end up making national news for all the wrong reasons.
I just hope the idiot colleague isn't non white and bearded.
And do we actually know yet if it HAS been decommissioned?
That's bonkers, and agree with poly.
Do it too often , in the wrong place outside your office and the consequences can get worse than being fired.
What an utter moron
You know the saying “Guns for show, knifes for a pro…”
Do it too often , in the wrong place outside your office and the consequences can get worse than being fired.
Once, anywhere, has the potential for those consequences to actually be someone being shot and killed.
There is no right place, no acceptable amount of times.
Print off Section 5 of the Firearms Act and leave it on her desk, that should hopefully scare her into handing it in to the police
This is the best bit of advice yet.
Set it in jelly.
This is almost as good.
Also; you might want to be mindful of the fact that not reporting it might in itself constitute a crime. Joint enterprise? That might only apply if you're a Black kid who just happens to live in the same town as a suspect though...
A gentle reminder that firearms offences carry a minimum of five years in jail, might be the nudge the woman needs...
(if it's in a workplace where this just seen as bants, maybe one afternoon, hire a few actors to dress up in balaclavas and dark combats, charge into the office, rugby tackle her, cable tie her wrists, hood and then drag her outside with little concern for anything but speed.
Obviously video it, then stick it on YouTube as "this idiot kept a gun in her desk, you'll never guess what happens next")
If I was in the office, the next time she pulls it out I'd pretend to be fascinated and ask to have a closer look, and once she'd handed it over I'd immediately turn tail and march straight to HR with it, although not waving it about as I go! Maybe put it in a bag or something, and ask them to have a word with her about her conduct. It's not hers, so you're not stealing it etc. I'm assuming she's young and immature, and thinks that it's appropriate or funny. Her understanding of acceptability needs to be realigned.
If she's good at her job and maybe hard to replace short-term it'd be a shame to see her sacked, although personally I wouldn't want to be working around such a complete ****.
I think involving the Police could end up with her being turned into a teabag, and I'm not sure that's in anyone's best interests.
Harry, this someone you're close to should either:
- contact police direct and 'request' they visit to remove gun
or
- have a word with idiot waving gun around and explain it should be handed in to police and evidenced
I don't see any other acceptable option.
Employer's HR should be made aware.
I'll have a word this evening.
I’m assuming she’s young and immature, and thinks that it’s appropriate or funny. Her understanding of acceptability needs to be realigned.
The "waver" is in her 60s!
Big pre-inflated paper bag on a nearby desk. Burst loudly next time it makes an appearance.
Begs the question, as junior managers have failed to deal with this robustly, why have senior staff not been informed?
Or, option 3: The person you are close to should speak directly with their own manager/HR and inform them that there is an unsafe/intimidating behavior in the office and they and other colleagues don't feel comfortable working until its dealt with.
Management should deal with it to the letter of any internal policies that apply, which i would expect to vary dependent on the type of business being perpetrated. Gross misconduct as a minimum from where i work, could lead to dismissal and any further action being sought by the police.
Unless it's the boss with the gun in the drawer, in which case, run!
Begs the question, as junior managers have failed to deal with this robustly, why have senior staff not been informed?
A few of them were out last night and apparently the conversation went along the lines of "Guess what **** has started doing!".
Unless it’s the boss with the gun in the drawer
She's Elon Musk in disguise and I claim my £1 luncheon voucher.
All these daily mail fascists wanting her dismissed. Loss of job, unable to pay mortgage, bills etc. Could even end up homeless and destitute.
Get a grip of yourselves ffs.
Seriously though, maybe when somebody in their 60s starts waving a firearm around they have an underlying mental health condition, to think that's appropriate. My neighbour, although not tooled up, has started behaving very irrationally in recent years due to her mental health.
maybe when somebody in their 60s starts waving a firearm around they have an underlying mental health condition
Or maybe not. People do daft things, it doesn't have to be more than that. Don't ascribe fictional conditions to a situation you know nothing about, as this doesn't help anybody.
All these daily mail fascists wanting her dismissed.
I don't think anyone is wanting her to be dismissed, but a lot of people have pointed out that it would be a likely consequence if they did the same - and I know I'd be out the door without my heels touching the floor if I tried something like that. I'd say the person doing the waving should maybe be encouraged quietly to think damn carefully about their own future (though apparently they aren't) and knock it off, and if they don't then it goes to HR to see how appropriate they think that behaviour is.
No actual description from the OP, but I'll hazard a guess this is probably one of these old flintlock types you used to see mounted on a plaque and sold out of argos
I know I’d be out the door without my heels touching the floor
Why would you only be walking on the balls of your feet? 🤔
I'm going to go against the flow here and say it might be worth a more subtle intervention to start with. Then escalate if necessary. The behaviour is clearly wrong on many levels and needs to be addressed. But it is possible, is it not, that this lady in her sixties is perhaps just a little naive? Unaware of the alarm she is causing and the potential repercussions. Maybe, just maybe baying for her instant dismissal for gross misconduct or calling in the SWAT team to 'brass her up' in the tea room is going nuclear a bit too early?😉
How about an interview (without coffee) with her manager, confiscate the offending item and hand it in to the police. If she's contrite, apologetic and otherwise a good employee of long standing then perhaps a bollocking might suffice?
Dons a tin hat and takes cover before the STW massive calls in an airstrike on bloke towers for dissent.
Why would you only be walking on the balls of your feet?
I meant more like:
... but quicker.
Her heels are touching the floor...
🤣
I don't think anyone is calling for SWAT. There's no daily mail fascists that I can see. It's an indication of a possible outcome given the seriousness of what's happening. The police don't like firearms that much.
She needs to be told quite FIRMLY & be under NO illusion as to how improper her actions are, how they have impacted others & the implications for her if she continues. Then be given the chance to deal with it herself PROMPTLY by contacting the police or taking it DIRECTLY to a station. Hanging on to the weapon (regardless of it's status deactivated or not, replica or real) is a highly questionable act & could have very serious consequences.
edit: I'd also add she apologise to all who may have found her actions unsettling. A bit of public contrition can be humbling & useful. It will also help build bridges & restore her reputation. If it were me in that office I'd be more than just a little bit angry...guns are no fing joke.
I don’t think anyone is calling for SWAT.
My post was intended to be light hearted, hence the wink smiley but.....
police armed response unit!
.
Armed response flashbang the room and pile in.
Surely this is a have a word with her and the boss - the gun has to be considered properly. If it is a museum or show piece, then dispose of to a collector. If not, hand in to the polce.
It has no place in a workplace, unless you are a Stalker, farmer etc...
I don’t think anyone is wanting her to be dismissed
Well this kind of sounds like one member at least is calling for her dismissal. Of course it could be tongue in cheek... 😆
Absolutely this.
There’s criminal offences being committed there, so gross misconduct, straight to dismissal, do not pass go……
Surely this is a have a word with her and the boss – the gun has to be considered properly. If it is a museum or show piece, then dispose of to a collector. If not, hand in to the polce.
The ultimate arbitrator of the guns status & whether she can keep it or not will be the police I think. Therefore they should be the first port of call.
Firing offence... ;0)
Firing offence… ;0)
Both barrels for that joke.
Jokes need to be of a higher calibre... 🙄
Well this kind of sounds like one member at least is calling for her dismissal.
I wouldn't call for her dismissal, I just wouldn't be surprised if she was dismissed if what she is doing is a firearms offense.
Most workplaces would fire someone who committed a serious offense in the workplace, even if it was 'harmless banter'.
I'd imagine most DM fascists would be very upset if she were fired (PC gone mad, back in my day, etc...). That's assuming she's white, of course. If she's not then the average DM fascist would demand she be immediately shot in the head and dismissed without notice for bringing gun crime to this country (never used to have to lock your door, back in my day, etc...)
Came here for the 'Renholm shoots himself' clip and was not disappointed. 🙂