You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
This is a pretty shocking state of affairs: [url= http://bit.ly/OS3eCg ][b]clicky[/b][/url]
Not a great way for the government to be treating soldiers.
There is a petition [b][url= http://bit.ly/OeMUoN ]here[/url][/b] to try and get the policy turned round for soldiers being made redundant in the future (of which there are going to be loads by the look of things.)
Didn't they reduce the pension qualifying service period to allow more to get their pension if made redundant and he fell just short of the new figure?
Must be a sickener all the same
I'm sure someone will be along shortly moaning about public sector pensions.
His grievance is completely understandable.
Still a pretty good payout for 18 years work though. Far better than the equivalent private sector payout and doesn't seem to be capped at 12 months pay equivalent like other parts of the public sector.
Was that what you were after anagallis?
I'm sure someone will be along in a minute moaning about private sector pensions and how small they are in comparison (even though they pay less into them, have a company car and other corporate perks, don't work nights or weekends, get dividends and bonuses, etc etc etc)
Far better than the equivalent private sector payout and doesn't seem to be capped at 12 months pay equivalent like other parts of the public sector.
wise words. let's make public sector conditions as bad as the private sector.
can't beat a good old race to the bottom.
on the other hand how many other 43 year olds draw 93k lump sum on retirement...
if he'd bought a home instead of renting he'd now have more yhen likely paid off his mortgage and wouldnt be living with mom and dad..
I suspect that the skills he has as an emergency medical provider will be civvy street transferable so all in lifes not THAT bad..
I genuinely sympathise, you'd think the civil service would look at people's finishing dates to avoid something as crass as this....then again as the article suggests maybe it was done intentionally to reduce pension costs?.....if so then poor form from those in charge.
That said a lump sum of 90k and he's saying he had to move back with his parents?!....a mate was a Corporal in the Paras and lived on camp, he payed virtually bugger all to live there and got additional money for being away on ops, its hard to spend your wages in Iraq and Afghan so he used to come home with loads in his bank account....what has this bloke been doing with his money?!
More on the issue here:
[url= http://pensionjusticefortroops.wordpress.com/ ]http://pensionjusticefortroops.wordpress.com/[/url]
Wow they really do get a good deal - but if that's the deal then its harsh him losing out by such a short time period.
Good deal reflecting the commitment given to career which is a way of life rather than just a mon to fri job.
let's make public sector conditions as bad as the private sector
No, let's not. Let's make the Private Sector as good as the Public Sector...
I'm 44.
When do I get my £93k...
I think the average service time is now 9 years so you would think the mod could afford to give him the full whack.
When do I get my £93k...
Did you sign up to the same pension or did you chose a different career which has a different pension?
Regarding cut-offs (for anything that has an entitlement) where do you draw the line? There will always be losers by narrow margins.
As I said earlier, I believe the cut off was moved
IIRC it was 18 years and they reduced it to 16 and that's what this chap is just short of
72hrs tho.
Headline sounds wrong, but then when you read the detail...
He got 12 months notice and nearly £100k - at 43, and only a Sergent.
No wonder the country is going bankrupt, its the Public Sector again screwing all of us.
No, let's not. Let's make the Private Sector as good as the Public Sector...
I'm 44.
When do I get my £93k..
when you get yourself unionised and fight for what you deserve rather than bleating about it on an internet forum.
No wonder the country is going bankrupt, its the Public Sector again screwing all of us.
Oh dear someone lit the touch paper.
No wonder the country is going bankrupt, its the Public Sector again screwing all of us
someone fell down a rabbit hole
He's 72 hours short, therefore "earned" about 99.9% of his pension.
The problem with the current forces pension system is that it is a "cliff edge" rather than "taper".
Under the current system there are those who are lucky and have served long enough to qualify and those made redundant just short (in this guys case 72hrs) do not qualify for the entitlement which they have spent their career working towards.
The systems needs reviewing.
As I said earlier, I believe the cut off was moved
IIRC it was 18 years and they reduced it to 16 and that's what this chap is just short of
That can't be right - if he joined at 24 then made redundant at 43, his must be the 18 year pension.
Regarding cut-offs (for anything that has an entitlement) where do you draw the line? There will always be losers by narrow margins.
That's a fair comment but but when you know that cuts are being made on purely cost ground, it does begin to look like someone has realised those nearest pensionable service will be the most expensive to employ, so by getting rid if those you save wage costs but also get the double whammy pension saving.
Though £93k sound great, when you look at the crap wages our non-commisioned armed forces are on, especially considering level of responsibility and danger, it's actually fairly crap. His actual annual pension of £6k is woeful:- yes, at 43 he should be able to get another job, but just how many jobs are there out there?
a re assesment of pensions is necessary.. i know we ve had some etc and police pensions are changing etc and causing hardship..HOWEVER
why does a 43 yr old need a retirement pension.. this particular bloke looks fit and healthy and he sounds well vocationally qualified. he's been well paid during his service.
why does a copper need a lump sum of 4x his final salary and an index linked pension of 66% of final salry at 49?
the jaw dropping truth is they dont.. they can go earn a living ( and many do)
with public finances focussing on the poor and infirm for cuts in income should nt these fit and healthy folk who have as much as 25 working years ahead of them have to bear some of the ''we re all in it together'' or is it only the welfare claiments that are in it..
equally DC and his mates ( and i say this as a tory voter have badly let the country down, firstly by reducing tax for those on high incomes and by thier continued refusal for some sort of mansion tax.. rates have an upper limit but no lower limit speaks volumes..
That can't be right - if he joined at 24 then made redundant at 43, his must be the 18 year pension.
Probably, I don't recall the detail, was it reduced from 22 to 18 then?
[i]someone fell down a rabbit hole
[/i]
No, its someone who understands the 'cost' of money, OUR money. How average wage tax payers does it take to enable the Govt to pay out that 'extra' £92k (£185k - £93k) for this guy? Or put it another way, what is the cost to our children of the additional debt, to pay out this kinda money?
And, [i]when you get yourself unionised and fight for what you deserve rather than bleating about it on an internet forum.
[/i]
Tell me I'm wrong, but the Armed Forces are not unionised, they are though the Ruling Classes last bastion. After the Police, another area that needs serious change.
Just had a play on the Hargreaves Lansdown pension calculator to see how much this pension would cost most people.
Fudging his actual age (I used the age of 37 to get a planned retirement age of 55 / 18 years service as the calculator doesn't have 43 as an optional retirement age) even the lower figure still represents an effective employer contribution of over £2000 a month towards his pension. If he'd got the original lump sum the effective employer contribution works out somewhere between 3000 - 3500 a month / £42000 a year!
totalshell.....generally speaking the pension ages in the Police and Armed forces reflect the years of shift work which take its toll on the body and in many cases the physicality of these jobs, would you want 60 year old soldiers?....it also takes into account that (generally) someone will join one of these careers young and leave with virtually no externally recognised qualifications or a 'trade' that directly transfers to civvy street.
No, its someone who understands the 'cost' of money,
So do you understand how the banks lost millions, how so many corporations found ways to avoid paying tax? Public sector pensions have changed and yet this still goes on.
seemingly lack of pedantary today.. shirely my dears he was made redundant, that is not the same as being sacked?
Still fricken criminal, you can bet no one in the up echelons of the civil service would accept this.. or have it forced upon them
why does a 43 yr old need a retirement pension.. this particular bloke looks fit and healthy and he sounds well vocationally qualified. he's been well paid during his service.why does a copper need a lump sum of 4x his final salary and an index linked pension of 66% of final salry at 49?
the jaw dropping truth is they dont.. they can go earn a living ( and many do)
this could be the first time we have ever agreed on something 😀
it also takes into account that (generally) someone will join one of these careers young and leave with virtually no externally recognised qualifications or a 'trade' that directly transfers to civvy street.
yes what would these people know about security.
Also many of the armed forces actually do a trade - I would assume a medical technician in the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers has some skills that transfer to civilian trades.
Did you sign up to the same pension or did you chose a different career which has a different pension?
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST
And did the soldier not meet the required criteria either? Same tough luck for both if using that argument.
Tell me I'm wrong, but the Armed Forces are not unionised, they are though the Ruling Classes last bastion. After the Police, another area that needs serious change.
and your point is ? no one in the public sector is going to affect positive change in their working conditions without union help, which if you bother to refer to the discussion is quite obviously the point of the post - not that the armed forces are unionised.
No, its someone who understands the 'cost' of money, OUR money.............
it's pointless stating that when you've already stated this.............
No wonder the country is going bankrupt, its the Public Sector again screwing all of us
i can't see how you could even begin to demonstrate a more confused understanding of the present malaise than that.
And did the soldier not meet the required criteria either? Same tough luck for both if using that argument.
Yes he did, he signed up for a pension because of redundancy he was just 72hours short of his full entitlement. That's far from fair no matter who you work for.
I would assume a medical technician in the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers has some skills that transfer to civilian trades.
I know if he wanted to become a Paramedic then no, other than experience he has got the rest is pretty much irrelevant he'd have to do the same process as everyone else.
why does a copper need a lump sum of 4x his final salary and an index linked pension of 66% of final salry at 49?
Who gets that? My deal was nowhere near that.
As for the soldier I feel for him, he has earned all but 72 hours of his pension.
Yes he did, he signed up for a pension because of redundancy he was just 72hours short of his full entitlement. That's far from fair no matter who you work for.
As I thought, the qualifying period for an immediate pension was reduced from 22 to 18 years so this guy (and others) would have been well short anyway
"This includes reducing how long soldiers would have to serve for before they qualify for an immediate pension – from 22 years to 18 years for those selected for redundancy. This means many individuals will receive an immediate income for which they otherwise wouldn't have qualified."
http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=20042
Well he obviously feels very upset about it seeing as he's sent his medals to DC. He earned them and will be very proud of them. I'd need to be extremely upset to throw mine away.
Oh and 18 years military service I expect he's done about 30 years worth of hours when compared to the private sector! The blokes been on ops spanning 18 years, give him his pension FFS.
The changes should be for new joiners not for those whe have already planned their lives around the current system. Immediate savings could be made through efficiency. Particularly in contracts and tendering processes where basic kit costs a fortune due to the overpriced contract it was supplied under (backhander?). The outlook that "I haven't got a good pension so why should you" is pathetic.
The outlook that "I haven't got a good pension so why should you" is pathetic.
I think it's more like "Why should I pay through my tax for you to have an unnecessarily high pension when others are struggling."
its hard to spend your wages in Iraq and Afghan so he used to come home with loads in his bank account....what has this bloke been doing with his money?!
Counselling sessions for the PTSD?
It's not good enough money to attract me. You might have already been through the mill, I don't know.
Mudshark there are many, many things OUR taxes are spent on that should be cut before pensions. Within pensions there are many low or non-contributory pensions for civil servants, MP's etc that should be cut before our Armed forces and emergency services. I don't dispute that things need to change to be sustainable but the way it is being done is very wrong.
takisawa2 - MemberLet's make the Private Sector as good as the Public Sector...
Let's have a comparison with private sector soldier pay and conditions.
Let's have a comparison with private sector soldier pay and conditions.
Is your point that there is no comparison possible because there is no such thing as a private sector soldier or that private sector soldiers are better/worse paid than public sector ones?
My point was that people in totally different private sector roles should consider the big picture of why soldiers have such different pay and conditions from them.
There's a much bigger issue here than pensions. I believe that the government realise that pension disparity is a source of much angst and bad feeling towards public sector workers. This allows them to forge ahead with public sector cuts because they know they have created enough bad feelings amongst the 'Plebs' that there is very little sympathy for those on public sector pensions.
The debate should focus on continued foreign aid to countries such as Russia and China, two of the richest countries in earth. There should be debate over Osbourne's policies that have strangled growth, or how the banks delayed bonuses by a few days to avoid an estimated £100 Million in tax following the budget. What about the job market? Those who would like to retire on a decent pension are now being forced to either postpone retirement or find other jobs to bolster their funds. Doesn't this then affect the youth employment? With no manufacturing growth there are few opportunities for employment, the oldies are clinging onto there jobs meaning more youth are relying on handouts from the state.
Pensions are just one minor aspect but one that causes a lot of hard feelings. This bloke deserves the pension he signed up for. He'll have worked bloody hard for it and to lose out for a matter of hours is morally reprehensible for those responsible.
Well said Mildred.
Soldier sacked 72hrs before he was eligible for his pension
Says he was made redundant, very different things.
Not a great way for the government to be treating soldiers.
Did "The Government" actually choose him though or did they specify budget cuts and then his superiors selected who would go through some sort of selection system - would probably be someone in the army, not the government who ultimately decided he would go.
Not that it helps him. How much redundancy do they get? Does it make up the shortfall. I know that in the private sector some people are asked to take early retirement (with some financial benefit) rather than redundancy.
Did "The Government" actually choose him though or did they specify budget cuts and then his superiors selected who would go through some sort of selection system - would probably be someone in the army, not the government who ultimately decided he would go.
I personally think his selection, and a great many like his, would have been made because at 17 odd years service with the rank of sergeant he would've been a fairly expensive resource. His name etc. wouldn't have been a consideration but his annual wage bill would've. Knowledge, experience, commitment would've meant nothing to those making the decision, and much like regulation A19 in the Police service, they are merely numbers & pound signs. However, irrespective of which board or individual has made the decision, ultimately as the people making the £4.1 billion cuts to MOD budgets, the current Government are to blame.
All arms of the MOD, the Police, NHS Nursing staff, teachers, Fire & Rescue service are non profit making services. Market forces & competition don't have an effect here; they cannot bolster their income or make less profit for their shareholders. The Government knew this when they made such severe and sudden cuts to budgets. The Government also knew that the most expensive resource in these services re their staff, so it doesn't take a huge stretch of the imagination to know that the 1st cost savings are going to be people.
These are truly massive organisations that have to answer to the public; they have to preserve best practice whilst at the same time leeching the very experience that can provide this. To those who say "be more efficient" to save the money - new initiatives take time & resources to develop and implement (the bigger the organisation, the timelier & costlier this becomes): the cuts have been so big and so fast, across all of these services, that developing new, better, more cost efficient ways of working just cannot be done.
I for one can see the cracks appearing in my own service, and if you haven't noticed it yet, I think you will soon.
Is your point that there is no comparison possible because there is no such thing as a private sector soldier or that private sector soldiers are better/worse paid than public sector ones?
Mercenaries otherwise known as Private Military Contractors earn a ****ing fortune that can often dwarf that of a soldier, a big fortune as a mate of mines dad does it. An ex squaddie with a mansion, go figure.
It's precisely because of this the British army has been losing many of it's best men.
Whilst we're talking about a drain on the economy has anyone taken note of the new revelations as to how the private energy companies are screwing us?
I for one can see the cracks appearing in my own service, and if you haven't noticed it yet, I think you will soon.
For sure, everyone needs ambulances. I doubt many city bankers have access to their own private ambulance service - it's now being ****ed over by the cuts - for example ambulances for Peterborough come from Skegness.
The rich are getting richer, we are seeing no trickle down benefit. The middle classes and below are getting poorer and poorer because of corporate greed whose profits are funnelled into the few. Gone are the days of more philanthropic companies such as the Cadburys of yore. The whole systems a mess and those at the top don't realize it's slowly coming to bite them, when have we ever had a Tory government become so unpopular so quickly? It hasn't even been the cuts that have done it but the perceived gross incompetence in the running of day to day government, elitism/cronyism and the total lack of economic growth.
Mercenaries otherwise known as Private Military Contractors earn a **** fortune that can often dwarf that of a soldier, a big fortune as a mate of mines dad does it. An ex squaddie with a mansion, go figure.
Only for high quality soldiers; paras, commandos and SF types (the SAS paid a loyalty bonus of £50k to many of their blokes as retention was so poor). For the garden variety infantryman, the Mondays pretty dire considering the risk. This is because there was a massive call for them and they started taking anyone they could get their hands on; TA even security guards who gave up their jobs and it dragged the market down. A great number of my friends have been doing it for years and many are now on the ships doing the anti piracy security now as that's where the money is. I very nearly did it myself and would be mortgage free now if I did. Well either that or dead......
I am no expert on the overall package that mercenaries receive in the even of serious injury or death and what their families receive in the event of such circumstances.
Very little I would imagine, hence the significantly higher wages than those doing similar jobs but in the pay of HM Forces.
This bloke deserves the pension he signed up for.
And he did.He got exactly the pension and lump sum that he qualified for based on his length of service.
£7,525 redundancy payment would be the statutory amount...
No he didn't. He was made redundant 72hrs prior to qualifying for the pension that he had spent his military career working towards.
No he didn't. He was made redundant 72hrs prior to qualifying for the pension that he had spent his military career working towards.
He didn't, as I mentioned before, they reduced the qualifying period for an immediate pension from 22 years to 18 in order to allow more of those being made redundant to get an immediate pension and not find themselves going at 21 years etc. and missing out, there's always going to be some that are just short of any cut-off but he would have normally only expected to get the immediate pension at 22 years service.
He was just short of the new cut-off, if they hadn't reduced it, he would have been well short of it.
I take it he still gets a pension at 65 but just doesn't get the immediate one?
It must be crap for him but I can't really see how the MOD could have done much more.
Mercenaries otherwise known as Private Military Contractors earn a **** fortune that can often dwarf that of a soldier, a big fortune as a mate of mines dad does it. An ex squaddie with a mansion, go figure.It's precisely because of this the British army has been losing many of it's best men.
PMC and mercenary are not euphemisms.
There was only a brief window when any old sod (ex-RUC part timers that were stood down to desectarianise PSNI for example) could show up with a reasonable chance of being hired to do work in Iraq or Afghanistan. The skilled positions are professionalized and fewer, the semiskilled stuff is done more by people from cheaper markets than before, the contracts that the big US and UK firms had have often been lost to smaller, "more flexible" providers.
The work of PMCs is not just close protection or other work that squaddies can do. Neither is the work of PMCs ir mercenaries the only appropriate analog of soldiers - security guards, paramedics, logisticians, intelligence analysts, construction workers, engineers etc all exist in the private sector too. It depends on the role.
PMCs operate in the ultraflexible global labour market - there are few (formal) employees because everyone is on contracts and there are few effective labour rights. Injury and death payments are either zero (if cowboys) or as paid for by private insurance policy (a employee or employer's cost).
So he did then.
Sorry - I don't mean euphemisms in my first line, I mean synonyms.