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Anyone got solar panels on their roof?
Is it worth it?
Are your electricity bills nearly zero?
Are the panels paying themselves back in the timeframe you were lead to expect?
Would you recommend their installation to others?
Thanks, just thinking about it so when I'm old, I don't freeze to death due to fuel prices being unaffordable.
I installed solar tubes for pre-heating our water. It was a great little project, which I really enjoyed. I have no idea how much it's saving us in gas bills but right now the panel is pre-heating the cold water entering our house from 10 degrees to around 48 degrees, it will be 60 by end of June. Total cost was around £700.
Read about it here:
http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=255833&start=0
Depends on where you are. It isn't the same for everyone. Is your roof suitable for a start?
I worry the technology will be redundant in 2 years, not 25 as you tend to cost them over
We have 15 panels (3.75kw) facing due south. Since 31st September they generated just over 1400 kw. We gave gadget that uses any solar electricity to power the emersion heater. This means we hardly ever have the gas water heating on now.
Couldn't tell you how much our elec bills have reduced with out looking through them. Planing on this once there been on for a full year.
Factor in how much of the solar generated power you will use. We are in in the day time so use as much as we can. Washing machine dishwasher and oven are all used in daylight hours as much as is feasible.
This obviously means we are not buying the power in the first place.
Also you get paid for every kw generated - what ever its used for plus paid export tariff for 50% of what is generated.
And of course if you use what is generated then you save by not buying it in the first place.
I was speaking to a chap who had way more cells than were allowed on the electric tariff deal (he was no longer a 'small generator') but he didn't care because he had bought 2 electric cars (one for him, one for his wife) which he charged from the cells.
He reckoned that each unit of electricity was worth about £1 in round terms when used in this way.
I worry the technology will be redundant in 2 years, not 25 as you tend to cost them over
Anything other than worry as a source? I've seen 25 year old panels still generating electricity. Given current panels use the same basic tech, and the sun is still shining, and electricity is still electricity, what exactly are you worried about?
each unit of electricity was worth about £1 in round terms when used in this way.
Unlikely - even if he is on the first tier of fits at 45p/unit and he uses every last drop of power to offset other electricity purchases (I.e. not the immersion heater thing which in the post above is displacing gas at 4.5p) he will be making/saving the equivalent of 60p unit. If he has more than 4kw, then he will be on a max of 32 or 38 p, less if he installed recently.
Solar panels still make sense if you have the right roof with no shade and don't pay over the top for the system AND you can afford to lose access to the cash for the time it takes to pay them back. Typical payback for a domestic system vary between 6-10 years depending on how much of the power you can use at the time it is being made.
Anyone who thinks domestic electricity bills aren't going to rise above inflation is kidding themselves IMO, same with oil/gas. I was talking to the MD of a large oil drilling company last week and he reckons the cost of drilling west of Shetland is up to 6 times that in the North Sea.
As for The technology involved becoming obsolete, it's a fair point but we don't know what is around the corner so you have to make your own mind up. Typical crystalline silicon panel efficiencies are 14-16% with the next level being 18% for hybrid panels but they aren't cost effective at uk tariff/production levels. After that you get into gallium arsenide (space station type panels) that are 100s of times more expensive and unlikely to be cost effective anytime soon at 25% efficient.
Inverters are 96% efficient so even a halving of the losses won't mean a huge leap forward in yield.
My advice, as an installer of renewables inc PV is to go for it, but I'm biased!
Hth
Just put the deposit down on a roof full!
Should be generating nearly 4Kw some time towards the end of May. 😀
£?
Can someone tell me if a vertical south-facing exposed wall would work? Given that it would actually be more efficient in winter when the sun's lower?
Should be generating [s]nearly 4Kw[/s] around 3Kw some time towards the end of May.
Reality fix.
[url= http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?sid=4867 ]This is how our 4Kw system is performing[/url]
Can someone tell me if a vertical south-facing exposed wall would work? Given that it would actually be more efficient in winter when the sun's lower?
It 'would' but not very efficiently - sun is not up for long in the winter.
My roof faces East-West. If I put panels on both sides I'd do alright....!
Actually - if I had solar hot water that might work well - the panels are cheap enough I could afford two, the rest of the gubbins would be the same and I'd just have some valves switch over at lunchtime.
As a matter of interest, this is all very good. But hopw much does it cost?
What have you calculated as the ROI?
Smudger I think he was factoring in displaced fuel costs for running his electric cars as well.
As always, if you guys really have 4kW and not the 3.68kW that is the legal limit (check it - ESQCR as amended) then I trust you have the maintenance procedures and agreements in place as the law would require. I trust also that you applied for connection under G59, not G83, although some DNOs will agree to your G59 connection as if it were G83 provided it is not far over 3.68kW.
Yes, it's just technicalities which probably won't matter - unless something goes wrong.
Just put the deposit down on a roof full!
you're paying for them? 😯
seeing as they don't store any electric, aren't they only of use if you're in durning the day when they are optimum, excl summer i suppose
As always, if you guys really have 4kW and not the 3.68kW that is the legal limit
The actual legal limit is 16A per phase, rather than 3.68kW which is making an assumption about the voltage. You could install 4 KW of solar panels and put a 16A current limiter in and be fully compliant.
Over 5 years of solar thermal. It thermosyphons so is completely maintenance free apart from cleaning the glass now and then and topping up the fluid once a year. 5 months free hot water and it works as a pre-heater the rest of the year. 2 weeks of 100% solar hot water so far this year. About half of the initial cost saved.
3 1/2 years of PV. Over half of the initial investment recovered. One new inverter under guarantee and a complete roof sealing kit replaced under guarantee. Edit to add figures since 1/9/2009: Production 11836kWh, consumption 7149kWh. We're not on gas but burn about 2.5m3 of wood a year.
Be careful about the company you choose (because you may need them to come back and replace the sealing kit), the inverter you choose(because good companies have long guarantees and do exchange ones after that) and the panels you choose (because some of the cheap ones catch fire and burn your house down while the firemen spectate as they can't use water).
Just at thinking about it right now, I can squeeze a 2kW onto a funny mix of SW and SE facing roof. c10 year payback, which should come down if fuel price inflation goes bonkers as seems likely. What I really need to do is get the gas bills down though!
You're right, Stever. For the majority of British households solar panels are window dressing. There's not much point producing 2500kWh mainly in the Summer if your winter gas consumption is 15000kWh.
Insulation will do more for the planet pound for pound than solar panels in most homes. Roof, wall and under-floor insulation along with triple-glazed windows with shutters means we've only had to light the wood burner twice in the last two rather chilly weeks.
i work for a PV company as a salesman/surveyor (an honest one)((yes they do exist))
i have recently been visiting customers that we installed PV for a year or so ago and they are ALL getting more money from the feed in tariff than we predicted, we are however based in Cornwall.. so get a fair bit more sunlight than Sheffield (which is where the SAPS calculation is based from)
panels have recently gone up due to i new chinese export tax, but we can still get ours day to a 6 year payback time (which in reality will be lower) they are still fair cheaper than they were a year ago but the tariff is lower!
Still worth the money in my opinion, much better than having 7-9k sat in the bank in my opinion! after you've paid the system off, the calculations show that you will make between £20-26k from the FIT!
Insulation will do more for the planet pound for pound than solar panels in most homes.
Bit of a red herring that as there's nothing stopping you doing both, is there? As you know.
the calculations show that you will make between £20-26k from the FIT!
As long as no-one scraps it.
Edukator - do you mean external shutters like the French have on old houses? Do the need to be very close fitting?
I live in an old French house. Mine fit fairly well most of the way round but there are 2-3mm gaps in places. I measured the temperature between the windows and the shutters with double glazing and it was roughly halfway between the inside and outside temperature. With state-of-the-art triple glazing it's still 5°C warmer in the gap than outside on a frosty night.
Cost £6k installed and including VAT.
16 Conenergy noir 250w panels
Inverter is a red colour , begins with F, Fronian?
SE facing roof.
Buying it with shares I got from a share save scheme.
The shares have done OK, but won't ever meet the rate of return of a solar panel set.
Footflaps - you are correct that it is 16A per phase - however that's at nominal voltage (not my assumption that one, but I'd have to re-read the standards to check which is the relevant one).
So16A x 230V = 3.68kW
And for the exemption under ESQCR, that's your lot.
As for the current limiter, DNOs vary as to whether they regard this as acceptable. My view when I was the man making the calls on behalf of our two licensed areas was that it was the panel rating minus any parasitic load presented by the inverter. As an alternative I would have accepted panel rating times the inverter efficiency.
There are good reasons for that email me if you wish to discuss.
That said subject to a quick look we were happy to accept G59s up to 4kW as if they were G83 and I believe my successor has taken a slightly more relaxed view (but that last point isn't gospel).
We had them installed in December, and are pleased so far. Even if i discount the electricity I don't have to buy during the day, then they are paying back around 7% so far, and will pay off in 13/14 years, and I am expecting that to improve over the summer/longer days.
We have also started to do more washing etc during the day to use the electricity we generate, but it will take a year or so before we can tell how much our usage has gone down by.
Like someone said above, if you can spare the cash for 10-15 years then do it, but they are a very log term investment - If they didn't make money then their wouldn't be companies that will put them on your roof for free.
My washing machine draws water from the thermal solar tank on the wash cycle so I don't worry to much when I turn it on. The electric motor doesn't use much.
I've had panels on my roof for 2 years now and if you have the money sat in the bank it's a no brainer to get panels installed!! You are guaranteed a yearly tax free payback up to 10% on your 'investment' compared to 0.something % in the bank and in fact your money is getting less worth everyday inflation is above interest rates!
From FIT I have received back nearly £2k in payments so far, we put washing machines et al on timers and our Elec bill has reduced significantly too. We are currently on track to pay off the panel cost in 8 years and then have a 17 year tax free income from then on.
Currently you only get paid the tariff for 50% of what you generate, I predict that figure will increase personally when the Elec Co's fit smart meters that measure accurately what we are generating, then our returns will be even higher.
The Co we got our panels from are currently developing battery systems that charge up during the day and can be discharged at night to power lighting and TV's etc, thus reducing elec consumption even more.
If you do come to sell your house, we have been told that they add at least £10k to the value of the property.
It really is one of those 'Too good to be true' things that actually is good.
Bit of a red herring that as there's nothing stopping you doing both, is there?
Most people won't though. Most people slap the panels on and could do far more with their money if they chose 'fabric first'. UK housing stock is incredibly badly constructed and people get used to crap houses and accept really low standards as the norm.
UK housing stock is incredibly badly constructed
Really?
UK housing stock is incredibly badly constructed
Which period in particular: Edwardian, Victorian, 1930s, post war, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s?
There is no one type of UK house....
I've read this topic with some interest.
I have got the cash sat in a bank account not earning much interest - may as well get a better return on the money.
Can those that have had it fitted successfully give me some companies that they would recommend? It would help me sort out a shortlist of quotes.
reply on here or pm me please.
email address is in my profile - much appreciated.
As a whole, UK housing stock leaks air and has terrible insulation, which means they are bad to heat / cool. In terms of looking at what the occupant wants and needs from a house, the construction is poor, and permission is based more upon aesthetics than building performance, which perpetuates the problem.
There is no one type of UK house....
OK - most everything in at least the last 50 years isn't that well built. The older stuff just suffers because of changes in thinking and lifestyles. If you think a building is well built just because it hasn't fallen down, we're talking about different things.
I have got the cash sat in a bank account not earning much interest - may as well get a better return on the money.
As long as you're happy that the money is coming from selling electricity to the national grid that it can't use, for three times the going rate, and that cost goes straight onto everybody's electricity bills.
And as rising energy costs hit the poorest the hardest this is basically a direct wealth transfer from the poor to the wealthy - inflating your bank account at the cost of society's most vulnerable having to go without heat and light.
As long as you're ok with that, go for it.
klumpy, we live in a capitalist society. What you just described sounds like a capitalist's wet dream.
I'm not a wealthy person, I've worked all my life since 16.
At long last I have some money to invest in lowering my energy costs when I retire (hopefully in a few years time).
I learnt a long time ago that the world isn't entirely fair - but I have worked hard and made some sacrifices over 45 years of working.
I can't help the fact that some people might be disadvantaged, by being someone who will pay more for my energy, when I will only have my pension to live on.
I don't want to see anyone struggle, but unfortunately I've had to in the past.
Paying more for my energy won't directly affect anyone,but me.
Anyone give me some recommendations?
I think you're getting confused.
The electricity goes back into the "grid". As far as I'm aware it will be drawn from the nearest source. So if I'm not drawing on the electricity I'm producing it will go to someone next in line on the mains. Unfortunately he or she has to pay for it.
The real winners in this are the suppliers. In effect we finance (PFI) their requirements to provide / meet renewable energy targets. They benefit by paying me 3p for 1kwh and sell it on at 14p or so. The FITs tariff is paid by everyone who pays for electricity plus the suppliers can pass on costs for administrating the scheme (Must be some big bonuses within those costs)
So in simple terms they are meeting their green targets for little or no capital outlay plus they also earn revenue on administrating the scheme.
Nice business model wish I could have something similar.
As long as you're happy that the money is coming from selling electricity to the national grid that it can't use...
Say what?
I think the suggestion is that PV generates on sunny summers' days when the electrical load is low, but doesn't generate at time of peak demand around 5-6pm on a weekday evening in December (or occasionally January)
for those of you using your electricity during the day, are you not better off selling the electricity during the day at the FIT rate and then getting an economy 7 meter for night use?
I think the suggestion is that PV generates on sunny summers' days when the electrical load is low, but doesn't generate at time of peak demand
That's fine, but it's news to me that all the power stations are sat idling during the daytime in summer because there's no demand.
My house would be great for it - south facing, unshaded roof on the Isle of Wight. Probably get more panels again on the flat kitchen roof. Also I work from home so use plenty of leccy during the day.
Unfortunately I just don't have the money and don't intend to stay in the property for the length of time that it would take for it to pay for itself if I was to borrow money to have it done.
Had them fitted today, 15 of them, Conergy Noir 250watt panels.
We're generating!
£5790 installed.
They look nice because they're all black
for those of you using your electricity during the day, are you not better off selling the electricity during the day at the FIT rate and then getting an economy 7 meter for night use?
AIUI they don't measure what you use, so you get the FIT rate for every kWh you produce regardless of whether you consume it all or none of it. Hence you may as well try and use as much as you can to benefit twice. NB I'm sure someone will come along soon with a more definite answer.
Dennis99
We used a company called Renewable solutions team based in Bolton and Leigh nr Wigan.
Cheap, did a good, well organised job that looked to be relatively safe with scaffolding around one side of the house and a team of 3 fitters who all looked like they knew exactly what they were doing.
Next nearest quote for similar panels was £8k but they dropped to £6 when I told them about my previous quote. They didn't get the job.
AIUI they don't measure what you use, so you get the FIT rate for every kWh you produce regardless of whether you consume it all or none of it. Hence you may as well try and use as much as you can to benefit twice. NB I'm sure someone will come along soon with a more definite answer.
You get the FIT on all energy generated, if you use it you get an additional saving equivalent to your energy cost of 14 p ish. If you don't use it you get 4 p for electricity sold to grid in addition to FIT so better to use it.
How difficult are they to fit yourself? Strikes me as something you could do easily with a bit of research as surely they connect up in a pretty straightforward manner and if so what price can you get panels for? Or is it set up so that only registered companies can register for the FIT tariffs or whatever they are. Just all seems a bit like a modern day version of the double glazing cowboy boom in the 80's with the same promises of saving a fortune on bills and hard selling techniques. I might be wrong but wouldn't mind knowing if its actually possible to do yourself and miss out the middleman
coolhandluke
Thanks, I've had a few quotes now - quite a bit of variation in the prices though.
I understand the system requirements a little better now. Some of the contributors to this thread have been very helpful in understanding the whole solar panel issue.
Haven't changed my mind - will make a decision on which quote this weekend.
Info from my guy yesterday - the tariff decreases slightly for installations put in after 1 July. Not a huge amount (15.44 to 14.90) but a bit of an incentive.
Bland
How difficult are they to fit yourself? Strikes me as something you could do easily with a bit of research as surely they connect up in a pretty straightforward manner and if so what price can you get panels for? Or is it set up so that only registered companies can register for the FIT tariffs or whatever they are. Just all seems a bit like a modern day version of the double glazing cowboy boom in the 80's with the same promises of saving a fortune on bills and hard selling techniques. I might be wrong but wouldn't mind knowing if its actually possible to do yourself and miss out the middleman
You can in theory fit the panels yourself but you still need to get an MCS qualified installer to sign off the installation in order to claim the FIT.
Your analogy about double-glazing sales techniques is a fair reflection of the situation in 2011/2012 when the tariffs were higher and a lot of dodgy installers flooded the market. Now things have quietened down a lot and it is mainly the decent installers that are left. Always look for an installer with a good track record and some testimonials.
Interestingly the capital cost of the equipment has fallen in line with the FIT rates, so return on investment percentages have remained the same (but obviously net cash return is reduced). With rising electricity prices, they are a good bet.
Get em in quick before the EU starts punitive import taxation on Chinese panels!
[i]OK - most everything in at least the last 50 years isn't that well built.[/i]
I'll partially disagree with you.
Our last house was built in 1998, a 3-bed detached. Even though it was a 'better' builder when we bought it (in 2001) it still needed 'snagging'. I had this done myself.
But, insofar as heating efficiency/insulation it was top-notch with very low running costs. We always left the thermostat at a constant (15c when out or asleep and 20c when in). House was always warm.
On our new house we've hot water panels that have been up for 20 years. No idea how efficient they are, but we've plenty of hot water.
If you don't use it you get 4 p for electricity sold to grid in addition to FIT so better to use it.
To be exact, it is presumed that 50% of your generation goes to the grid and this is what you get paid for [plus the FIT] regardless of how much you do actually export.
So if you generate 2000Kwh/year you'll get 1000 x £0.04 = £40. Basically you should use every scrap of power you generate if you want to maximise your return.
If you need a heating system and thermostat then the house always will be warm, br. How much energy did that house use? What were your electricity and gas bills/consumption. We average under 2000kWh per year of electricity, use no gas and 2-2.5m3 of softwood.
More than 44kW/m2 per year and it's not passive. More than 100kW/m2 and it's just another house that "isn't that well built".
Where are you Edukator (I know it's not UK but otherwise unsure)?
SW France. About 5°C warmer than the English Midlands through a typical Winter.
It's more interesting comparing the recent houses of German friends with those of English friends. Even the most recent British houses have double glazing, no shutters and inadequate wall insulation.
Just wanted to say a big thanks to smudger666 for his impartial advice and help ( education).
This forum is truly very helpful and friendly.
I will be installing solar panels in the next 4 weeks.
You get the FIT on all energy generated, if you use it you get an additional saving equivalent to your energy cost of 14 p ish. If you don't use it you get 4 p for electricity sold to grid in addition to FIT so better to use it.
Cheers, and footflaps.
Was just discussing this with my landlord/neighbour today as he's getting an array put up in the orchard where we have our sheep.
Talking of which, need to get a small panel to power the electric fence.
I'd read that triple glazing doesn't do much for heat insulation, but it does for sound.
Talking of which, need to get a [s]small[/s] panel to power the electric fence.
A small one will do nowt I'm afraid. I looked at this for the 12v fence around our chickens.... we've ended up with a 12v power supply made from a house alarm system that is run from the mains. It also has a 12v house alarm battery as a backup which is constantly being trickle charged.
UG = 0.7
UW = 1.1
I doubt you'll find big double glazed windows under UW = 1.4. They do save energy then but the return period given the extra cost over double is long, about 30 years in my case if I were heating with gas. If you are worried about sound then phonic double glazing is the way to to go, 10 or 12mm thick outer glass.
As for cost, when you get to the point where triple glazing is the final touch that means you need no heating at all you save on the cost of boiler installation and maintenance for ever more.
A small one will do nowt I'm afraid. I looked at this for the 12v fence around our chickens..
have a leisure battery powering 50m of sheep netting at the moment.
Was thinking a 20W panel should be enough, might go a bit bigger.
Scaffolders are here!
have a leisure battery powering 50m of sheep netting at the moment.
So are you looking to recharge the leisure battery from the solar to extend the periods between proper recharges?
It will work to an extent but you will still need to plug it into the mains sometimes.
We have a beach hut that has LED interior lights and music supplied by a leisure battery - I'd like to have a panel attached to this to keep it going for longer but it would probably get nicked 🙁
Done!
[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7294/8744219226_8324beaf31.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/steverile/8744219226/ ]Fiddling on the roof[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/steverile/ ]steverile[/url], on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/steverile/sets/72157633492756041/with/8744219226/
I've made just over a pound so far 🙂
Uh oh they're on sideways..... have you got the inverter set up to correct the alignment of the electrons?
Just 5 or more on the other side?
Think they put the wires at the bottom to make sure everything was collected. Another 3 round the corner - 2kW, SE/SW facing. One pound fifty now.
Think they put the wires at the bottom to make sure everything was collected.
Ahh you'll be fine then.
One pound fifty now.
In how long?
If you've got an old laptop hanging around you could hook it up to the inverter and feed all the data to pvoutput.org - then you could look at pretty graphs abd see when the sun came out 🙂
[url= http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=6085&sid=4867 ]Like this[/url]
I've looked at your graphs before. Went in Tues, peed it down Wed. The inverter gives the stats via a web page, but haven't set it up with the router security yet. Looking forward to a datafest.
nice one 🙂
I'm considering a mix of both PV and Thermal for our South facing roof. We have a large open plan kitchen + dining room at the back of the house (north facing) with underfloor heating and it seems crazy not to heat (or pre-heat) this large floor with solar.
Anyone doing/done underfloor heating with solar thermal?
Resurrecting an old thread here.
Had my panels fitted over three months ago - cost £7,000.
Just had my first quarterly payment ( tax free) from the FIT (feed in tarfiff)>
£327
Is that good or bad?
Has to be marginal to keeping it in an ISA at that rate?
ETA - just done the maths and it is up to year 7 or so, then they start to pay off, as long as they keep working.
Has to be marginal to keeping it in an ISA at that rate?
£327 for the summer quarter, so let's say £700 / annum = 10% return on £7k investment.
You won't get anywhere near that with an ISA....
Yes I get that, but you probably need to assume some, or 100% depreciation of the panels, as you won't be seeing your 7K again anytime soon
At 700 a year I would have saved £17,500 with FIT and have £20,132 in an ISA, the panels may or may not be junk
So not that great?
Plus my energy bill is reduced, as I don't buy as much electricity or gas.
The gas saving is the usage I would have used to heat the hot water. Fitting an immersion heater and then scooping up the surplus solar panel energy heats the water in my hot water tank.
More like £900 a year is realistic.
Panels guaranteed for 12 years, probably last 25+ based on current thinking.
Yep, £7,000 gone.
But reduced energy costs - I don't think energy prices are going to drop soon......
I'm pleased - doesn't even compare to buying a used car for £7,000 ( or anything else) come to that.
Tax free.....
Forgot to say.
System provides me with say £900 a year tax free.
Have you seen how much an annuity costs you to provide a £1,000 a year?
I'm looking to retire soon, so even the financial part of it makes some sense.
£100,000 buys £5,000 annuity.