You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Thought it distasteful that some of the jurors waited around in the lobby to meet Spacey afterwards.
For real? That's quite disturbing.
OK he's been found innocent of these specific charges. Would anyone here leave their teenage lad with him though?
But the simple fact is that he is innocent of any crime.
He was found not guilty of these charges. He has been accused of numerous serious crimes spanning decades. You'd be brave to bet that he is innocent of any crime whatsoever.
I was talking with respect to his legal standing and nothing more.
Aye, fair enough
pointed out that he was found not guilty rather than being found innocent.
He doesn't need to be "found innocent"...there is no such thing under English and Welsh law. He is innocent of these charges as a basic principle of law.
It surprises me that seemingly intelligent people can't (or won't) understand the distinction.
He is innocent of these charges as a basic principle of law.
I think people are maybe confusing the legal situation with their own personal views.
He is, legally, innocent. I would be inclined to be cautious of his behaviour around easily influenced young men.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
Groping employees then being surprised they didn't appreciate is how sex offenders behave, not normal people.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-66188135
The court heard the complainant alleges the incident happened as he drove Spacey to a showbiz party in the early 2000s.
When asked if he caused the accuser to "come off the road" when he grabbed the man, the actor replied: "That never happened. I was not on a suicide mission on any of those years."
Giving evidence, Mr Spacey told the court he had developed a "flirtatious" relationship over time with the accuser, and that he touched the man in "romantic" and "intimate" ways.
"Yeah, I am a big flirt," he told the court.
Speaking about touching the man, he continued: "It did not happen in a violent, aggressive, painful way.
"It was gentle… and it was, in my mind, romantic."
Mr Spacey said the complainant said things like "this is new for me".
He explained the touching did not progress because the alleged victim "made it clear that he did not want to go any further".
Thats Spacy admitting sexual assault!
Groping employees then being surprised they didn’t appreciate is how sex offenders behave, not normal people.
if it’s so clear cut he was guilty to you, an individual who I assume wasn’t in court, didn’t hear all the evidence, and didn’t receive direction from the judge, I’m genuinely surprised it wasn’t so clear cut to the jury who were tasked with deliberating the verdict ….
I reckon they could have saved everyone in the courtroom the time and effort and just got you to decide the verdict based on what you have read in the media..much easier for all concerned 👍
That quote is a clear admission of sexual assault. there is no other interpretation to it. Sexualised touching without consent
And yet the jury still didn’t convict him…
so either that didn’t form part of the charges, or there is clearly some other interpretation of it that you have missed
everyone has stated he clearly had good lawyers. I assume he was briefed by them before he took the stand. I find it highly unlikely they’d be ok with him blatantly admitting sexual assault in a trial where he is accused of..sexual assault
There is no other interpretation. He admitted sexual assault there.
That quote is a clear admission of sexual assault. there is no other interpretation to it. Sexualised touching without consent
Technically yes.
Playing devils advocate, do we all ask for clear and specific consent every single time we look to get intimate with a partner?
Sometimes I've got it wrong, and I stop when they
“made it clear that he did not want to go any further”.
I'm not sure MrsMC, or her predecessors, would make the leap to me sexually assaulting them, however technically correct that leap is.
If he did do it, he should be jailed
Could spacey claim any damages and compensation for any of this or is this similar to the guy that was supposed to have killed Jill Dando but then released years later. He wasn't able to claim compensation as he couldn't prove he didn't do it just that there was not sufficient evidence to say he did....or something like that?
I'm familiar with the cup of tea film. The point of which is that you stop when they say "no", which in the specific example is what Spacey says happened.
My question was whether we all ask for specific consent each time BEFORE we place a potentially amourous hand on a partner, because technically and legally we should.
From what I can gather, these weren't his 'partners', he was groping.
My question was whether we all ask for specific consent each time BEFORE we place a potentially amourous hand on a partner
I don't know about partners. But whenever I'm driving along with someone who isn't my partner, I do ask before touching their genitals. To be fair that doesn't happen very often (ever) for me these days, so it doesn't take up a lot (any) of my time. Maybe if you're Kevin Spacey whose life seems to be a treadmill of boozing, smoking weed and propositioning men 20 years younger than you, all that consent-asking could add up to hours every week.
Meanwhile:
“Yeah, I am a big flirt,” he told the court...
Mr Spacey said the complainant said things like “this is new for me”.
Striking echoes of:
Victim: Why yesterday you touch my breast?
Weinstein: Oh, please. I'm sorry. Just come on in. I'm used to that.
Victim: You're used to that?
Weinstein: Yes, come in.
Victim: No, but I'm not used to that.
Weinstein: I won't do it again.
From what I can gather, these weren’t his ‘partners’, he was groping
the same thing applies though. Years ago I remember some smoking hot lass invited me to the pub. After a lovely night (well it was for me at least) we were walking home and I went in for a snog. She was having none of it, so I apologized for misreading the signals and went on my way. I didn’t ask her for permission to try to snog her (who would ?). I’m sure many folks on this forum have had a similar experience when younger . Does that count as sexual assault?
to be clear I’m not saying that’s what happened in the spacey encounter, but it shows things aren’t so black and white.
edit..also to be clear I didn’t grab her lady bits!!😳
I surprisingly enough - and I assume most others fit this description too - don’t know the guy at all, so I do not consider myself at all qualified to make comments on his character. Some of the comments here seem to me to be incredibly presumptive and based on no direct knowledge at all.
I never met Stalin either, but I'm going to stick with my opinion that he's not a nice man.
Surely the best thing to do in this case is to throw him in the river. If he floats he's guilty & if he doesn't he's innocent. That would be the easiest way to appease some on here.
I never met Stalin either, but I’m going to stick with my opinion that he’s not a nice man.
Fair point, I don’t think it can be argued that the evidence against spacey isnt as compelling as against 2 of the worst genocidal dictators in history, a terrorist admitting killing 3000 folks on camera, and a builder who had numerous bodies discovered under his patio…
burn him..
He was found not guilty of these charges. He has been accused of numerous serious crimes spanning decades. You’d be brave to bet that he is innocent of any crime whatsoever.
Apologies, I incorrectly assumed people would realise I was referencing the trial rather than stating that he is innocent of any crime, ever.
Surely the best thing to do in this case is to throw him in the river. If he floats he’s guilty & if he doesn’t he’s innocent. That would be the easiest way to appease some on here.
Is he a duck?
I can’t see where admitted to sexual assault, he admits he touched someone who turned his offer down and Spacey then took it no further. Imagine you asks someone for a cup of tea, while gently holding their hand. They say no so yo don’t make a cup of tea.
from what I can gather, these weren’t his ‘partners’, he was groping
Er...
Mr Spacey told the court he had developed a “flirtatious” relationship over time with the accuser,
Suggests a relationship to me.
Anyway, the pitchfork brigade is out in force on this thread...I'd love to see how they'd react if them or a loved one was tried, and found innocent of a crime....would they be happy if everyone else was "of well, there's no smoke without fire..."
I’d love to see how they’d react if them or a loved one was tried, and found innocent of a crime…
I dunno, if for 20 years my colleagues were gossiping about what a sleazebag (and worse) I was, and a boatload of unrelated people accused me of a remarkably consistent pattern of predatory and sleazy behaviour, I might at least consider the possibility that...I am a sleazebag, even if not a sex offender.
But maybe like Trump says it's all a witch hunt.
Usual Suspects
Great double act of main actor and director for less than acceptable behaviour.
and from Popbitch
Now that Kevin Spacey has been found not guilty, talk has turned to him starting up work again – but it might not be so simple. Since Spacey has been on sabbatical, producers have had a lot of time to reflect upon the wisdom of hiring A-listers with such well-established reputations – and safe-guarding is now much more of a concern than it used to be.
Essentially, everyone is wary not to end up in the same situation that the Old Vic put itself in with its famed production of David Mamet's Speed-The-Plow, where Spacey was acting opposite Jeff Goldblum.
Management had to be on high alert for the entire run, looking out for every young staffer in the building – keeping the girls at arm's length from Goldblum on the one hand, and the boys from Spacey on the other.
Not being guilty to a criminal standard does not mean innocence. It means there wasn't enough evidence to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. It may still be the case that on the balance of probability the crime was committed.
"In 2017, Goodwillie and former Dundee United teammate Robertson were ordered to pay £100,000 in damages after a judge ruled in a civil case that they raped Ms Clair at a flat in Armadale, West Lothian, in 2011."
Playing devils advocate
When you play devil's advocate, you know who's side you are arguing, right?
It basically means someone who trolls.
keeping the girls at arm’s length from Goldblum on the one hand, and the boys from Spacey on the other
Geoff Goldblum? NO!! That passed me by! Are there any Hollywood actors I respect(ed) who aren't wrong uns? I thought Spacey was spellbinding in House of Cards, American beauty etc. but not having any interest in celeb tittle tattle, I was ignorant about any of this until it hit the 6 O'clock BBC news a couple of years ago. Who's next FFS 😟
This thread has been an interesting read. No legal system is infallible but where do we draw the line. Yes innocent people have been found guilty and vice versa and money can seemingly purchase a favourable outcome. It is a tough one regarding Soacey. I honestly don’t know what to think. I don’t know him or his accusers so will remain neutral.
Goldblum though FFS. He seemed pretty cool. Now I’m just imagining him as a big sleaze, lounging around in that Jurassic Park jeep leering at female members of the crew.
Are there any Hollywood actors I respect(ed) who aren’t wrong uns?
I just have the default assumption that any entertainment figure is an *hole. I think it's just a culture that brings out the worst in people. After a couple of decades of it, most people will probably lose touch with normalcy and turn into entitled *s too.
When you play devil’s advocate, you know who’s side you are arguing, right?
It usually means someone prepared to consider the opposite side. I'd already stated that i wouldn't want Spacey around vulnerable/impressionable men, and the example I used was one very specific one to show that quite a lot of us have probably committed sexual assault.
It usually means someone prepared to consider the opposite side.
No, it means someone who argues an opinion they disagree with. If you play devil's advocate to argue that Kevin Spacey is innocent, you're saying that you actually believe he's guilty.
Defense lawyers have to play devil's advocates as part of their job in representing manifestly guilty criminals. That's a necessary part of our justice system. If you're not Kevin Spacey's lawyer, it's hard to see why you would feel the need to play devils' advocate for him.
If you’re not Kevin Spacey’s lawyer, it’s hard to see why you would feel the need to play devils’ advocate for him.
I thought I was contributing to a debate and widening it to show how easy it is to cross a line to a criminal offence, but I was obviously wrong and foolish.
I know some of you are probably well-intentioned, but there's a bit of a false equivalence between going in for a snog and getting denied or putting the moves on the missus but she's not in the mood - and Spacey's well-documented predatory behaviour over many years.
Perhaps some were responding to TJ's unhelpful absolutism on the issue, but I'm honestly a bit baffled why some people are so invested in defending the **** TBH.
Do you really, really think that we should only judge him by court verdicts? Do you take exactly the same position on Prince Andrew?
I just have the default assumption that any entertainment figure is an ****hole
This explains alot…
Do you take exactly the same position on Prince Andrew
The difference is that Spacey has been before a court of law and found not guilty. I accept that I don’t know all the facts & the jury has. The jury may be wrong, but then quite possibly so are allegations which have been scrutinised & found not to be beyond reasonable doubt.
Handy Andy wasn't even criminally prosecuted, he only paid off his accuser in a civil case. But people are more willing to judge him anyway.
Spacey would 100% have paid these accusers off if he could have.
I find it slightly ironic that the one person on here most vocal about Spacey’s guilt is the very person that, if they expressed this opinion to the judge or defense team…
I just have the default assumption that any entertainment figure is an *hole. I think it’s just a culture that brings out the worst in people. After a couple of decades of it, most people will probably lose touch with normalcy and turn into entitled *s too.
would probably be removed from the jury for being unsuitable to serve in such a case😂
would probably be removed from the jury for being unsuitable to serve in such a case
Just a hunch here, but I suspect that expressing the opinion that it's all perfectly normal for rich, powerful men to grope their employees might get you removed from the jury on a sexual assault trial too. I don't know if you've read the news in the last 20 years, but groping people is considered quite a serious thing these days.
I suspect it might, just as well there's a middle ground for objectivity.
No, it means someone who argues an opinion they disagree with. If you play devil’s advocate to argue that Kevin Spacey is innocent, you’re saying that you actually believe he’s guilty.
No it doesn’t.
If you play devil's advocate in a discussion or debate, you express an opinion which you may not agree with but which is very different from what other people have been saying, in order to make the argument more interesting.
Sounds to me more like someone who this he’s guilty because they’re a celebrity, which they don’t like, so are arguing against the court decision. You now, troll like.
I've been chatted up by homosexuals from the age of fifteen, some getting quite insistent. However none has persisted beyond and firm and possibly annoyed "no". None has tried to kiss without asking first though some have been tactile. What Spacey has described correspends to what I've experienced and also observed among homosexual aquaintances. Madame has had similar experinces with homosexual females. "No" was enough, nothing to get upset about.
Spacey has always said (and it seems plausible) that he stopped at the point the subject of his attentions said "no". On that basis I agree with the verdict as there was no proof of anything more than heavy chat up.
Do people think I'm suitable to serve on a jury in such a case ?
A big part of me suspects the persistent rumours about Spacey are partly driven by the fact he's gay, and more importantly that it wasn't public knowledge.
I'm sure there are plenty of straight serial shaggers in Hollywood that don't get the same gossip. Michael Douglas is one that springs to mind. Treated for sex addiction
Do people think I’m suitable to serve on a jury in such a case ?
Obviously not, you're just way too sexy.
Ta. But you're not so "no". I'd normally add a wink here to show the comment is in jest but it somehow seems inappropriate. 😉
There are different patterns of codes and behaviour in different social settings, if anything should be on trial it's the whole star system and codes of behaviour assoicated, homosexual, straight or whatever. metoo doesn't seem to have changed much.
Just a hunch here, but I suspect that expressing the opinion that it’s all perfectly normal for rich, powerful men to grope their employees might get you removed from the jury on a sexual assault trial too
Very much so. Remind me which poster said that?
A big part of me suspects the persistent rumours about Spacey are partly driven by the fact he’s gay, and more importantly that it wasn’t public knowledge.
That's one of Spacey's lame attempts at deflecting his critics. Problem is, he paid $30 million for sexual harassment. It doesn't matter what crimes other people might have committed, Spacey's problems are because he's been harassing people for decades, not because he's gay.
if anything should be on trial it’s the whole star system and codes of behaviour assoicated, homosexual, straight or whatever.
Exactly. This is an old clip, Warren Beatty's manager would tell him to walk right out of there if this happened today.
I think it’s fair to say that people in showbiz wouldn’t find the fact that a colleague was gay very rumourworthy. 🤣 Not today, not even 20 years ago.
Is it an overstatement to say that people outside show business, including the press, seem quite fascinated by it, even today? (But mainly I think it's a fascination with other people's sex lives in general.)
Is it an overstatement to say that people outside show business, including the press, seem quite fascinated by it, even today? (But mainly I think it’s a fascination with other people’s sex lives in general.)
It's wierd because I work/worked in both TV and Engineering. Both make a big deal of diversity and inclusion, but they end up in completely different outcomes.
I just have the default assumption that any entertainment figure is an *hole. I think it’s just a culture that brings out the worst in people. After a couple of decades of it, most people will probably lose touch with normalcy and turn into entitled *s too.
How many people working in entertainment have you actually met to develop that opinion?
How many people working in entertainment have you actually met to develop that opinion?
I’m going for zero. They might touch him.
How many people working in entertainment have you actually met to develop that opinion?
It's not necessary to know a celebrity personally to realize that they're a *. Here's a brief list off the top of my head of people I haven't met, but have decided are *s.
R. Kelly
Kevin Spacey
Bill Cosby
Mel Gibson
Rolf Harris
David Bowie
Eric Clapton
Donald Trump
Louis C.K.
There would be plenty more if I bothered to spend some time on it. Is there somewhere I can apply for a permit to dislike people who I haven't met?
So a quick list of 9 out of a possible list of?
The list from a population of a town would probably be bigger.
You're embarrassing yourself, whatever multiple of doubling down you're now at, just stop.
I never met Hitler, or Stalin, or Putin, or thousands of other ****s. Do I have your permission to dislike them, even though I never met them?
I never met Hitler, or Stalin, or Putin, or thousands of other *s. Do I have your permission to dislike them, even though I never met them?
No issue with disliking people based on evidence whether you met them or not. It's the default that everyone in the same industry is the same. In some circles that would be seen as prejudiced and label you as bigoted.
I just have the default assumption that any entertainment figure is an *hole.
Especially because the wrong'uns get the headlines; nothing sells papers or gets clicks as much as knocking people down.
Do some googling on A listers doing good things, and then on the same basis why not draw the conclusion that all A listers are brilliant people using their agency for good, and influencing others to do the same. It's as evidence based as your default position. Here's one to start you off
Ok, thanks. I do have permission. I also dislike Prince Andrew despite his charitable work, I hope that's ok.
https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=290140&subid=0
The Prince Andrew charitable Trust uses its resources to create initiatives which support the work of The Duke of York's main areas of activity: Education and Skills, Entrepreneurship, Science, Technology and Engineering.
I just have the default assumption that any entertainment figure is an ****hole.
Fair one. I have the same position about civilians who are obsessed with war and think themselves some kind of OSINT guru. Does that make me a bad person?
So by the same token do you dislike all people called Andrew, or all men who were born in 1960, or are you just taking that position on this particular Andrew because of well publicised behaviour?
Because essentially that's what you're doing, taking a (your words paraphrased) "default assumption that any member of a particular group is an ****hole because some of them are"
That is the definition of bigotry
a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
So by the same token do you dislike all people called Andrew
Strangely enough, the ones I know personally are quite dislikable people. Every time I meet an Andrew, the warning bells go off in my head, "Here we go again!"
Same goes with Kevins, actually. I never trust a Kevin.
I once met a chap named thols1 who was an argumentative bigoted …
makes you think..
I once met a chap named thols1 who was an argumentative bigoted …
Harsh, because he is is usually one of the better posters on here, but obviously an issue he feels strongly about.
He still is one of the better posters, here included, clear points made in a way that make me smile but seem to be going whooosh over some peoples heads. Keep up the good work thols2.
Edit: Spacey isn't on my own bogey person hate list BTW. My own includes Blair, Bono, Boris (and cronies), Bertrand Cantat... and I've only got as far as B in the alphabet. Never met them.
I've met a few stars over the years and found most to be pretty "normal", one though gave the impression they thought everyone fancied them and made judgemental comments about others which seemed like poor judgement to me.
How is
I just have the default assumption that any entertainment figure is an ****hole.
going whoosh over my head. I'm always open to learning, what am I missing?
Harsh, because he is is usually one of the better posters on here, but obviously an issue he feels strongly about.
fair enough, I’m not familiar with his other works. But some of his comments on here have been ridiculous
There appears to be some pisstaking alongside serious poss. sometimes makes it hard to tell them apart.
thols2 and I have had some robust debates. I have huge respect for what he says as he rarely comments without a good well thought through point. Often skewers me 😉
#thoughtsandprayersforhollywoodmogulvictimsofbigotry
Thols, interesting that your 9 examples were all men. Do you think women in the entertainment industry are also best assumed to be dodgy?
I noticed the same Poly, and then tried to produce a more balanced list, it wasn't possible, people I have enough contempt for to have on my list are male. I'll work on it.
Do you think women in the entertainment industry are also best assumed to be dodgy?
The way the entertainment industry is structured, being a nasty, dishonest * gives you a big advantage in being successful. Anyone successful also has a publicist whose job it is to manipulate the media and get positive stories out there, and to try and bury any negative stories. The assumption you need to make when you meet someone successful from an industry like that is that there is a very good chance they are a *. Some of them obviously aren't. I know a guy who used to run a club that Keanu Reeves liked to visit when he was in town. Apparently, Keanu is a pretty decent guy. George Clooney and his wife also seem to be decent people, but it's hard to know for sure when you're dealing with celebrities. When I was young, I used to think Mel Gibson would be a great guy to have a beer with. Completely wrong about that. Same with Woody Allen. Same with lots of celebrities - you cannot trust that the persona they present to the public is anything resembling reality.
Getting to the question of women, a guy who flatted with some of my university friends got an M.A. in politics and then got a job with a media company back in the 1990s. I didn't particularly like him, he struck me as a pretty-boy who coasted through life on his looks. Anyway, then his female boss at the media company started sexually harassing him, which we didn't take seriously, being young and stupid. "Yeah, what a problem dude, lady wants to shag you and you're complaining," sort of reaction. Anyway, he was so upset about it that he quit the job. I'm sure he probably found something else, but I've always felt bad about not taking that seriously. Now, being a bit older and wiser, I realize that incidents like that happen endlessly, with young people losing their dream jobs because nobody takes their complaints seriously. (I still don't like the guy, he was a pompous dick, but he didn't deserve that.)
So, I'm sure that the perpetrators are overwhelmingly male, but do not assume that female bosses never harass their employees either. Allison Mack and Ghislaine Maxwell are a couple of high-profile female offenders, but they will not be the only ones by a long shot. So, yes, safest thing to do is to assume that anyone working in the entertainment industry is a ****. If they demonstrate otherwise, like Keanu and George Clooney, great, but don't assume that the person they pretend to be when cameras are pointed their way is anything like reality.