[Closed] Social Class in the BBC.

What class does 'eccentric billionaire' fall into? I want to be that

It's all about where you store your Tomato Ketchup.

If it's in the cupboard with the teabags? Working Class

If it's in the fridge as per the directions on the bottle? Middle Class

No idea where Cook keeps the pickles and preserves? Upper Class

I thought it was a proposal from Corbyn, not something the BBC were doing?

Well the beeb has been accused of being a bit insular and not promoting diversity enough.

If you don't measure or baseline you can't work out if your efforts are working. The way it's done will be the measure of its success.

Social mobility is a big problem in the UK.

Brexit will solve the issue of social mobility 😉

Corbyn with his finger on the pulse on matters really effecting peoples lives, once again.

I like to pretend I'm northern working class but in reality I'm landed gentry, actually called Lavinia Crumpton-Smythe and I ride dressage horses not those frightful two-wheeled contraptions

Front of the class, I always sat at the front.

Which meant I was a target for the gits at the back who flicked wet paper bullets from a ruler.

Always got the girls though, the nice ones that is.

If you don’t measure or baseline

Indeed, so *how* class is measured. What class am I? What classes are available? How do I find out?

Social inequality is the big problem in the UK, mobility won't change that.

I'd like to know how the BEEB defines 'white other' in its tables. Is there an objective criteria or does it depend on 'self-identification'? Which definition of class will they use? The staff might be 'diverse' but you never hear a working class sounding announcer on there.

I have been told many many times I have no class, so I guess I'm classless and exempt from the survey 🙂

I’d like to know how the BEEB defines ‘white other’ in its tables. Is there an objective criteria or does it depend on ‘self-identification’? Which definition of class will they use? The staff might be ‘diverse’ but you never hear a working class sounding announcer on there.

.....except Rab McGlinchey

When the Beeb addressed a similar problem last time it went really well.

'Moving out of London' to become more regional, ended up costing 100 squillion pounds, resulted in a load of rich southern media types being given enormous relocation grants to move up to the desolate northern wastes.

This resulted in about 12 jobs actually being created in Salford, all of them cleaners on minimum wage, and the property prices doubling in Chorlton and Didsbury

Their are only 3 classes in the UK.

The Elite, and don't think because you live in a £1m house in Surrey and earn £500k a year you fit in, you're not even close. Elite's don't need to work and very rarely do unless they fancy running the country for a bit to ensure their quiet little club remains untouched.

The Working Class - 90%+ of us, doesn't matter if you're stacking shelves, or trading stocks, sweeping the roads or the head of a large multinational Bank, if you work for a living, you're working class and you always will be unless you can amass enough wealth that you and the generations of your offspring that follow never have to work, then you can join the ranks of the Elite, but really, *you* can't, if you're born working class, you'll always be working class, the best you can hope for is your Grand Kids become Elites.

The Underclass, left behind by the economy, unskilled labour that's lost it's work ethic - if you're born into the underclass it's takes more heroic levels of determination and graft to leave - to be that 1 person who grows up in a house where no one works, and worst still don't believe in work to say "no, I want more" and stay in school, get a job and leave.

The 'Middle Class' and all these new ones, they're a fairy tale invented by the Elite as a way of control, to ensure at least half the working class will vote against the other for things that maintain the Elite's position

Not sure that I completely agree with P-Jay, but it's certainly a thought provoking view (and probably truer than I care to admit).

Me, I’m working class. I could never see how doing a posh job, like a bank manager or doctor, suddenly became middle-class, when they’re still working in order to actually live; they’re still working, innit.

I could never see how doing a posh job, like a bank manager or doctor, suddenly became middle-class,

They become middle class because that is how it is defined. Whether you agree or not is an entirely separate issue.

Me, I’m working class. I could never see how doing a posh job, like a bank manager or doctor, suddenly became middle-class, when they’re still working in order to actually live; they’re still working, innit.

Best definition is do you REALLY have to work.  If you quit tomorrow would you be homeless and starving by the end of next month?

If yes then working class, if you have a couple of months savings and a cupboard / freezer with enough food in it to survive a few weeks then you're middle class.

For the sake of an internal survey to monitor diversity, self identification would probably be enough. If you have to worry about what class you're in or how it's defined then your middle class. But it's a bit pointless then because unless you employ a lot of people with stay at home spouses then well paid jobs in the media are going to generally be done by muddle class people because they're well paid. You can plead working class northern roots all you like, but if you can afford a bike costing more than £300 you've got disposable income and aren't really working to survive anymore.

Me, I’m working class. I could never see how doing a posh job, like a bank manager or doctor, suddenly became middle-class, when they’re still working in order to actually live; they’re still working, innit.

I've yet to see a list of classes and the criteria people in that class have to meet. But, Like you, I don't see how your job has any bearing on it at all. The Queen didn't stop being upper class when she worked as a mechanic in WW2 and she wouldn't become working class if she abdicated and became a plumber tomorrow.

I'm all for the BBC measuring stuff, I just want to know exactly what they're measuring and what definitions they plan to use.

The staff might be ‘diverse’ but you never hear a working class sounding announcer on there.

For the BBC, regional accent (especially northern)   = working class. Isn't that why they have all those trendy childrens presenters who speak like (I imagine) Binners sounds?

Luckily the BBC have already answered this with their Great British Class Calculator

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

I am Elite apparently as I like museums.

I’m all for the BBC measuring stuff, I just want to know exactly what they’re measuring and what definitions they plan to use.

I guess once this gets released or happens they probably will do that.

Me, I’m working class. I could never see how doing a posh job, like a bank manager or doctor, suddenly became middle-class, when they’re still working in order to actually live; they’re still working, innit.

Better still to collect data and then analyse it without directly asking people who won't like the answers...

The disconnect between people who are comfortably getting on with life and those at the very bottom comes out in this one.

When the Beeb addressed a similar problem last time it went really well.

‘Moving out of London’ to become more regional, ended up costing 100 squillion pounds, resulted in a load of rich southern media types being given enormous relocation grants to move up to the desolate northern wastes.

This resulted in about 12 jobs actually being created in Salford, all of them cleaners on minimum wage, and the property prices doubling in Chorlton and Didsbury

2 added points to that (good comment BTW)

HS2 will mean all those Luvvies that moved Norf, will be able to go home and not rub shoulders with the great unwashed.

And I suspect I’m not the only one who thinks “here we go again, some reporter heading into the wild wastelands of Media Square, to ask a couple of locals about what is a Bap or Barm or Bread based sandwich filler impliment to be called...? And then require subtitles to understand said locals inability to speak clear English in a coherent sentence structure”

Glad to have assisted to this thread 😜

The US Comedian Rich Hall, did a documentary on the American dream a while ago, think it was on BBC Four

American is supposedly a classless society but he defined class like this:

If you go to work in a building and it has your name on it then your are rich.

If you go to work and your desk has your name on it then you are middle class.

If you go to work and you shirt has your name on it then your poor.

Probably very similar for the UK to be honest although P-jays point is also very good

Upper class means that your income is derived from ownership of land.

Working class means manual labour - neck down work.

Middle class is neck-up non-manual labour.

This doesn't account for everybody but it accounts for the great majority. No amount of "I work so I'm working class" is going to change it, although if you really do think like that then you are pretty "neck-down" so you are probably right in that sense.

Some pikey buy-to-let landlord might be thought to be upper class on the above reckoning but he will give himself (or herself, remember the BBC started this) away by using "criteria" as a singular.

I guess once this gets released or happens they probably will do that.

It was released to the public today so no they didn't, but, yes, the definition of social class should have been made clear on release today.

A lot of people on STW think your job defines your social class, if so why do the BBC need to record it, they know what jobs their staff do.

I quite like the definition that if you have a job you're working class. So by that definition everyone in the BBC is working class.

The definition of social class and the chosen categories are so fundamental to this idea that they should be released at the same time as the proposal.

And let's say some suitable classes are defined. It still seems mental to me. I'm sure Aristocrats will be unrepresented on the BBC staff. I'm sure royalty will be under represented. What are they going to do, get Phil the Greek in working 1 day a week to make up the average? Or sack a few Dalits if there are too many?

he will give himself (or herself, remember the BBC started this) away by using “criteria” as a singular.

I checked and I'm quite relieved to find I'm not a culprit.

Apropos of nothing, should the BBC regard "pedant" as a social class?

😀

It was released to the public today so no they didn’t, but, yes, the definition of social class should have been made clear on release today.

From your own words....

I caught a snippet on the radio mentioning the idea that BBC are considering logging the ‘social class’ of their employees.

Considering is not releasing it's having an idea and scoping it out.

A lot of people on STW think your job defines your social class, if so why do the BBC need to record it, they know what jobs their staff do.

A deeper look would probably consider your education - School type & University

Your parents occupations, locations and educational levels

Plenty more questions and probably a lot more detailed analysis and classification than was expressed in a snippet on the radio.

Working class means manual labour – neck down work.

Middle class is neck-up non-manual labour.

Work in a call centre for minimum wage, no education past 16, eat chips and kebabs for 50% of the week. Middle class?

More diversity bollocks then in the Beeb with chavs presenting the news.

Read a bit about the War of the Worlds thing they've been shooting. They had the option to actually shoot the Horsell Common stuff in Horsell Common (Woking), they liked it and it ticked all the boxes with the exception of diversity policy, so they moved the shoot to Liverpool. Diversity being to do with location cannot be home counties and they have to employ people from "the regions" when making programmes etc. Though this was just from someone's comment, not fact. Could be fake news.

Work in a call centre for minimum wage, no education past 16, eat chips and kebabs for 50% of the week. Middle class?

Dunno, let's consult the definition of Classes this idea is founded on. Oh wait we can't.

I'd imagine they're using this as that what their website content on the Class system seems to be based upon....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Class_Survey

If my memory of previous discussions of class on here is accurate, then if you're mortally offended when somebody suggests you're middle class and loudly proclaim your working class status then you're probably middle class.

If you go to work, and  your shirt has your name on it, then you're poor.

Absolutely agree with P-Jay....

Except his maths.... cos I make that 4....

But eck what'd I know... being from a Burnley council estate...

Dunno, let’s consult the definition of Classes this idea is founded on. Oh wait we can’t.

On a thread based on a snippet you heard on the radio this morning?

@deadkenny

More diversity bollocks then in the Beeb with chavs presenting the news.

Read a bit about the War of the Worlds thing they’ve been shooting. They had the option to actually shoot the Horsell Common stuff in Horsell Common (Woking), they liked it and it ticked all the boxes with the exception of diversity policy, so they moved the shoot to Liverpool. Diversity being to do with location cannot be home counties and they have to employ people from “the regions” when making programmes etc. Though this was just from someone’s comment, not fact. Could be fake news.

It's pretty funny all the same.... though of course Horsell is getting pretty posh now (for Woking) .. even posher since they introduced parking charges on my old car park the common conveniently close to the hidden pump track and dirt jumps some lads were making.

Diversity being to do with location cannot be home counties and they have to employ people from “the regions” when making programmes etc.

Are they going to sub-title it ?  Or draft in people most of the country can understand from around Liverpool

You'd think the cast being largely 3 legged aliens is pretty diverse...

Corbyn with his finger on the pulse on matters really effecting peoples lives, once again.

He was talking about how the media companies have got too much influence over what we read and hear and making some suggestions about how the balance might be regressed by making the BBC more relevant to people.

Of course recent events show that this is entirely irrelevant, right?

On a thread based on a snippet you heard on the radio this morning?

Misheard.

Upper class means that your income is derived from ownership of land.

Working class means manual labour – neck down work.

Middle class is neck-up non-manual labour.

Maybe a few decades ago, but even then it was never really about what you did - it was 'Landed' 'Professional' (I.E. the old professions, but not including the oldest) and 'Labour'.

Truth is, as per my slightly ranty point above 'middle class' doesn't exist, not in any real terms.The only thing you need to be middle class, is the desire to be so, then just spend the rest of your life constructing a veneer of domestic perfection to hide the fact that, heaven forbid, you can't have everything you want - no, sorry I mistyped you can't "justify" all the things you want, because to say you can't afford something is unthinkable.

If my memory of previous discussions of class on here is accurate, then if you’re mortally offended when somebody suggests you’re middle class and loudly proclaim your working class status then you’re probably middle class.

<div class="stw-forum-replies-5">Quite probably ....</div>
<div>I agree with P-Jay though... and nothing works better for the elite class than the lower classes arguing with each other and ignoring the elite classes!</div>
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<div>You can play with the class-slinky all you like so long as we conveniently forget that earning 10x as much as someone else is pretty minor when the elite are measured in billions and domiciled for tax reasons on their own private island somewhere.</div>
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<div></div>

If my memory of previous discussions of class on here is accurate, then if you’re mortally offended when somebody suggests you’re middle class and loudly proclaim your working class status then you’re probably middle class.

.+1

Spot on there, as I posted above seeing how people from different backgrounds have progressed in an organisation and how recruitment impacts social diversity is a very valuable piece of work for a large public funded organisation who are trying to represent the people that fund them.

It could easily become a soundbite on the 20s news item as a class survey.

You can play with the class-slinky all you like so long as we conveniently forget that earning 10x as much as someone else is pretty minor when the elite are measured in billions and domiciled for tax reasons on their own private island somewhere

Unless you are a hardcore Brexiteer with a chip on your shoulder, in which case anyone with a job and the ability to speak a complete coherent sentence can be called 'elite'.

Spot on there, as I posted above seeing how people from different backgrounds have progressed in an organisation and how recruitment impacts social diversity is a very valuable piece of work for a large public funded organisation who are trying to represent the people that fund them.

Except it misses out completely on the underclass and the elite class and actually (IMHO) then simply undermines the overall social mobility between working and middle class that has actually been (IMHO) fairly good.

If you take the BBC (as a publicly funded organisation) ... then there is an intrinsic problem like for example a charity might in that unless you have some super-top-dog job then working for the BBC is perhaps only really open to those who can afford it in terms of a reduced salary compared to a private company.

(As in they are not doing it soley because they are going to starve without the money)

Unless you are a hardcore Brexiteer with a chip on your shoulder, in which case anyone with a job and the ability to speak a complete coherent sentence can be called ‘elite’

Quite but I was trying to avoid the 'B' word.

then working for the BBC is perhaps only really open to those who can afford it in terms of a reduced salary compared to a private company.

I guess that all the people who live near me are just doing it for fun? Do you mean the talent budget here or regular employees? How do the production job rates compare to say sky?

I guess that all the people who live near me are just doing it for fun? Do you mean the talent budget here or regular employees? How do the production job rates compare to say sky?

Oh, Regular employees ... (though I guess the talent budget as well but that's different IMHO)

I'd hope Sky pay more... not being funded by me... but I was thinking that many of the jobs are not specific to TV/Radio anyway... surely the BBC has it's quota of Financial Assistants, procurement and such?

I was actually thinking of one of my sons friends we were discussing the other week, his Dad owns a fairly successful business (estate agents) and his Mum works part time for the WWF.... (came up due to choice of holiday destination) ...

TBH it applies to us as well in a way... OH is a qualified teacher but working as a SEND TA (or being paid as, as she's qualified she also gets asked to teach but doesn't get paid extra) because we can afford her not to go back to waitressing where just her tips were more than she earns.  In fact she actually earns less in her current job than when she was working in a private pre-school.

It doesn't impact our ability to eat ... just we do a 1 week package to Mallorca not 3 weeks in wherever exotic place his friend was going.

So you know the BBC salary scale then? Are all the jobs just done by people who don't need to worry about it? Is that like teachers?

https://careerssearch.bbc.co.uk/

No salary listed there but seems to be busy whenever I go past up here, maybe getting them out of central london is a good move to avoid the London tax

I'm still really not sure what your posts are going on about though....

Edit and a pay scale to go with it!!

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/360583/response/875669/attach/html/4/RFI20161777%20Reply.pdf.html

Seems like decent money, good pension, 35hr working week 25 days holiday and option to buy 5 more. Decent in the current climate

Graduate schemes at Nestle already ask you these sort of questions.......

Being privately schooled is a good indicator of comfortable middle-classness.  If the Beeb wants more diversity they could cap the proportion of privately schooled and / or  Russell group graduates.

Agree with the above.

 they could cap the proportion of privately schooled and / or  Russell group graduates.

How many do they employ? What if you are state educated & Russell group educated?

Class is easy if you're in the BBC.

Untouchable Paedophile.

Lying git.

Subhuman.

I'm sure there's a few more.

@eipcyclo don't be  a ****

Get on the tram at media city about 6pm and shout that out and see how many human beings look at you.

P-Jay : are you sure your "underclass" isn't a social construct from your working class (or the Elite controlled media which influences them) to make your working class feel better about not being the bottom of the pile?  I wonder where organised criminals fit into your pigeon holes too.  Are they effectively Elite as they don't actually work but control the others under them? or are they part of the Underclass?

Mark Thomas's definition: "If someone says ma na ma na and you go ba ba bada ba, you're middle class"

What would Mr Chumley-Warner add to the discourse?

mikewsmith

@eipcyclo don’t be  a *

Get on the tram at media city about 6pm and shout that out and see how many human beings look at you.

A few more Bundies and I'll be good to go.  🙂

But, yes, being a **, sorry,

I have a friend who is staunch in her view that she is working class because she comes from a working class area of Newcastle. She does have a bit of an accent, but then she’s a doctor and gets paid enough so lives well, quaffs Prosecco and drives a convertible bimmer (not at the same time). I think she’s middle class. Discuss.

Discuss? It highlights its more than a one word answer. She would however fit into the protest too much mode class group.

In terms of mobility its a positive that our doctors are not all kids of doctors etc.

Listening on Radio 4 last night when this was discussed.  Some professor was waffling on about how class was made up of a number of items including one she called opportunity!  After the piece I was none the wiser.  I was further confused that she classed herself as working class, even though she was a professor.  She implied that class is what you think you are.

However regardless of this, how can the Beeb (and it is not their idea - it comes from Corbyn) measure class.  They will have to ask each employee and applicant a number of questions - none of which are related to their ability to do the job.  Can you decline to answer?  And why the Beeb.  The Civil Service is far larger and is directly managed by Government - will they start there?  Will the education sector be asked for their figures?  Will private companies be asked for this information as well?  (Note for some US Government contracts you have to put down gender ratio's, the number of Lesbian and Gay and disabled employees!)

And then come up with definitions of class?  As this thread shows it would be impossible.

Perhaps we are still in the silly season for news?

I’m amazed we’ve got into two pages and no one has posted the Two Ronnies Clip..

Slipping standards are worse than any class argument.

All very ironic when you investigate the "class" of Jeremy and his major advisors ...

Most are Public School, most are Oxbridge / Re Brick Unis....

None as far as I can see have worked down the pit, or on the docks ...

A littel like most of the executives in the BBC ....

This has nothing to do with avoiding answering the anti semitism questions, has it?

None as far as I can see have worked down the pit, or on the docks …

A littel like most of the executives in the BBC ….

This has nothing to do with avoiding answering the anti semitism questions, has it?

If you want it to be?

Or more unless you ask the questions you won't know the answers. People seem very against understanding where we are and where big organisations are.

TECHNICAL MIDDLE CLASS according to BBC

This is what I seem to be and I would agree.   I was born into a working class family (lorry driver dad, part time dinner lady mum) but have somehow done alright at work (even though got poor exams) and exhibit many middle class traits although they started while I was in working class family as a teenager.

Not really sure what happened but I would definitely not describe myself as working class any more.

The middle classes or bourgeoisie control the means pf production. The working class do not, and only have their labour to sell. Therefore anyone who employs someone and profits from their labour, is part of the bourgeoisie or middle class. Even your most common as muck builder is middle class if he employs someone and profits from (exploits) their labour. Nothing to do with what profession you do, where you do it or what you wear doing it.