[Closed] So why don't football fans just withdraw support?

 they’d be at a bit of a loose end for 90 minutes each week

For many supporters it's a lot more than that. Many folk who by a Sky Sports subscription are watching a lot more than 90 mins per week.

It won't make a huge difference if they lose local support - football is a huge business now, fanbase is a global thing...those that can't attend an actual match tend to pay to watch - that won't stop.
Some owners do have a genuine concern rather than in it for the money, but football is no longer a game/sport, it is a business and it'll carry on for a good long while with or.without local support.

Their place will be taken by someone else, especially when talking about the bell end 6. The owners know it and that’s why they don’t care.

As for a sky boycott? I support Leeds so what motivation do I have to boycott? Same for the other 15 teams and the other divisions.

Football is too tribal to organise a cross club protest.

Sorry, 13 teams.

The Germans seem to be phenomenally successful despite (because of) legal requirement for 50% fan ownership. Therefore when a German buys a season ticket, replica shirt, match programme, pie and Bovril, they are genuinely helping the club. In England they are linig the pockets of a mega rich person with ulterior motives.

I used to work with a chap who was a massive supporter. He’d travel the country, Europe when his team travelled, week in week out. Season ticket holder, share holder, etc, etc.

It wasn’t 90 minutes per week, it was his entire life.

Because we can't. We're addicted, OK? We know it's bad for us, particularly fans of nondescript teams that have a good season every 20 years or so, and the rest is a mix of money sucking and self loathing. But give it up?

You might as well suggest that the best way to deal with atmospheric pollution is to stop breathing 😉

The Germans seem to be phenomenally successful despite (because of) legal requirement for 50% fan ownership.

Reality does not reflect that fantasy.

Didn’t see the fans complain when they overspent on paul pogba and the rest.

Football fans are fickle, they all want to buy success, but complain when things on or off the pitch go wrong

Wage spend caps needed to bring fairness.
Man City a foot in the door of winning the champions league, that they should have been banned from

For a reason I have never understood, football fans seem to have put way too much importance in a club then they have chosen at random at some point in their life.
Not easy to just withdraw support when they have put so much of their lives into it.
Alternatively, stop supporting massive clubs and go and support the club around the corner in division 17 who actually needs your money more directly.

I read an article by David Conn which said that the Glazers had taken £500mil out of the club in the same time that Man City's owners had put £500mil in.

Business ownership laws need looking at, it's not just football.

Most "football fans" really want to sit on their sofas for most of the week consuming Sky's product.
They're sky TV fans as much as anything. That's where their money goes.
ESL threatened that. It's been slapped down. Switch the box back on.

... but it’s hardly the end of the world.

For real supporters it'd be just that. As evidenced by theotherjonv.

You can see why fans are pissed (not condoning yesterday btw). Quote from BBC News:

...the argument goes, they would never have landed the club with the enormous debt associated with their controversial £790m leveraged takeover in 2005.

Manchester United were a debt-free organisation when they were on the stock market prior to the Glazers buying the club. The fans believe the Glazers should have used their own money.

That debt currently stands at £455.5m, according to the club's latest accounts, which were released on 4 March, 2021. It is estimated that in general finance costs, interest and dividends, the Glazer takeover has cost United in excess of £1bn.

With so much money in football, 'local' fans of some of the biggest clubs will always play second fiddle to TV revenue and global fan-base. It's business.
The reason people get so fanatical over football is an entirely different question. I think you either get it, or you don't (I don't).

When the Glazers took over at Old Trafford they were despised for the manner in which it was done - borrowing the money for the buyout, then loading that debt on to the club, which had previously been debt-free. They immediately hiked the ticket prices. We couldn’t see how what theyd done was actually legal!

At that point, I and most of my mates were season-ticket holders and on Saturday afternoons and midweek games, that was us. Meet up at the Quad for a few beers, grab a dodgy burger, time our walk to the ground so we got to our seats about a minute before kick off.

Increasingly disillusioned with the ownership and unable or unwilling to keep paying the ever increasing prices we all gave up our season tickets. So did thousands of others

Did that make a blind bit of difference to the Glazers?

What do you think?

As long as they can keep finding a new noodle partner in Singapore, keep selling overpriced replica kits by the container load at the club shop to Japanese tourists and keep on with their efforts to breakaway to earn even more money from a super league, they don’t give a flying **** about ‘legacy’ fans like me

I still love United, I still have a Sky subscription and never miss a match, I still take my eldest daughter - a handy centre-back herself and also big fan - to a few games a season but I despise the owners for what they’ve turned the club into, and particularly for being the apparent driving force behind this super-league nonsense

I agree, I'm a spurs fan, and used to go a lot as a kid, but the turning point was Abramovic buying Chelsea, that was the big change, Money has always dominated who is successful but that was a big turning point.
So I don't really watch the games and attend - in normal times - perhaps once a season at most.
For many fans, it is indeed their life, and the protests show what a good investment football is - what other brand would command so much loyalty?
Nothing will change, money will still rule the game; and the fans will just have the odd protest once in a while, then get lulled back into complaince with beer, Sky Sports, and the promise of Champions League football.
The super league is also inevitable however - young people aren't getting into football, doing things like Gaming instead, and the new markets are places in Asia, so the teams will inevitably splinter off and then play games all over the world. It's the logical endpoint of a league that was globalised some time ago.

The Germans Bayern Munich seem to be phenomenally reasonably successful despite (because of) legal requirement for 50% fan ownership.

FTFY

Didn’t see the fans complain when they overspent on paul pogba and the rest

well clearly you don’t know any United fans then. We were incredulous that we were spending that kind of money - including an alledged 30 million in agents fees - to buy back a player we’d let go a few seasons earlier. That just summed up the total mismanagement of the club. Absolute madness!

And when we signed Alexis Sanchez on the best part of half a million quid a week? Christ on a bendybus! What planet were they on?! Who on earth negotiated these insane deals?!

Oh... Ed Woodward - the Glazers representative on earth did.

They’ve spent a lot of money. Really really badly. While, let’s not forget; also ripping hundreds of millions out of the club for themselves.

Players were bought in not for how they fitted into the squad but for what revenue in replica short sales and image rights they could generate

The part of all of this I have never understood is the level of obsession that fans have. You just don’t see it in other sports and I don’t know what it is about football that drives this obsession

The part of all of this I have never understood is the level of obsession that fans have. You just don’t see it in other sports and I don’t know what it is about football that drives this obsession

I've never been into football, but I do get the obsession. It's about identity and tribalism (I think anyway). You used to see it with youth cultures, what music you listen to, what clubs you go to, clothes you wear etc... and to a lot of people, exciting and something to look forward to. I think a lot of that has been blanded out by the internet. Ie, every new thing is over before it's begun due to exposure. New scenes and fashions don't have time to develop. Or, the tribal nature of such things is seen as divisive, not politically correct and so discouraged. Everything must be the same.

As I said, never been into the game of football, but often been attracted to going to the matches as a last lonely outpost of tribalism.

That's my theory anyway, probably wrong. What do you think?

To go some way to understanding the importance of football, it’s worth reading Pies and Prejudice by Stuart Marconi.

He explains how these football clubs were the product of their communities, often based around specific industries or factories. This was how communities expressed their identity.

Rivalries were intense and loyalty absolute. That’s why the feelings between Blackburn and Burnley are just as intense, if not more so than say Liverpool and United.

The history of football is intertwined with the development of working class communities and has been clung on to during their post-industrial decline, like former mining communities still have their ‘colliery’ brass bands when nobody has been down a pit for decades.

It’s also passed down through generations resulting in chants like

“My old man said be a City fan,
I said * off, bollocks, you’re a *!

It does seem an amazing legal scam to be able to buy something by putting the thing you're buying into massive debt, but the club has also spent an astonishing amount.

I bet the protests wouldn't have happened if they'd somehow scraped past Man City to top spot this year though.

I guess effectively it's a bit like a mortgage. Does seem crazy though. Just like the amount of leverage the two brothers used who just bought ASDA - £6.8b business bought for £780m. Madness.

but the club has also spent an astonishing amount.

Indeed it has, but it's been done in a completely scattergun manner, with some absolutely inexplicable mega-money signings (Sanchez) that were obviously signed off in the boardroom, with little or no relationship to what was going on on the pitch, and clearly no involvement from the manager. How can you let a player go on a free transfer then pay 90 million quid to buy him back a couple of seasons later? It's complete insanity! The club is just being appallingly badly managed because the owners priorities have little in common with those of the fans.

It's also servicing massive debt that isn't the clubs, it's the owners, yet they continue to pay themselves hundreds of millions of pounds for the shockingly bad job they are doing

I bet the protests wouldn’t have happened if they’d somehow scraped past Man City to top spot this year though.

I think you're massively underestimating the anger at United that's been building since those parasites arrived, and to which the Superleague proposals were simply the final straw. It's not just on the pitch either. The Fans see Spurs new stadium, City's owners ploughing millions into the clubs facilities, whereas Old Trafford is pretty tatty now in comparison, because the owners rip as much as they can get away with out of the club, and invest as little as they can get away with back into it

The fans have had enough. If you watch the genuine passionate anger of Gary Neville, he's perfectly articulating the feelings of the fans towards the Glazers. It's complete hatred and the vitriol and scenes like yesterday are entirely deserved. They've had this coming for a long time

Surely lIverpool fans are presenty in the process of realising that the owners they heralded as the saviours of their club are in fact nothing of the sort. They're just anotehr bunch of carpet-baggers

Who is the true fan?
Local who goes to every home game, just like his dad and grandfather?
Someone the other end of the country with full sky and BT, watches every game, watches every post match analysis?
A kid in Singapore who knows every player, every stat, stays up to sillyoclock just to watch it live so he can talk to his best mate about it the next day?

What makes one more deserving than another?

Football fans...

Who is the true fan?

What makes one more deserving than another?

It's not an either/or scenario. Why on earth would you think it is?

Both sets of fans are important. We live in a globalised world, and thats a good thing. I don't doubt that a supporter in Singapore can be just as passionate as the bloke who's on the Stretford End every Saturday.

But neither's interests are being served by rapacious profiteering owners who want to wrench these clubs free of their geographical and historical roots, simply to make them into nomadic franchises, wandering the earth in search of the biggest payday.

For be under no illusions, that's what the European Superleague proposals are designed to be a step towards

Next weekends top of the table clash of the ESL soccerball between the Manchester Devils and the Liverpool Lightning will be live from Dubai on pay-per-view, with analysis from the studio at the end of every quarter

I think you’re massively underestimating the anger at United,...........

The fans have had enough.....

So what are they going to do about it? Back to my point, why don't they withhold their money and toxify the brand so that Glazer has no option except to sell?

It’s complete hatred and the vitriol and scenes like yesterday are entirely deserved. They’ve had this coming for a long time

Had what coming exactly?

Fair enough, they’d be at a bit of a loose end for 90 minutes each week

Most football fans (I assume) watch a lot more than just one game a week. I know I do, If there's footy on and and I'm at home, then it's on TV. Watched some EPL yesterday as well as the Old Firm derby and womens' Champions' League semi final. Sky Sports will the last thing to go in this house.

why don’t they withhold their money and toxify the brand so that Glazer has no option except to sell?

As I said, loads of us have withheld our money. We all gave up our season tickets. It made not a shred of difference. They just packed the ground with corporate hospitality instead (Roy Keane's 'Prawn Sandwich Brigade') and made even more money than before. So that went well.

The 'brand' is already as toxic as a nuclear weapons dump. They don't give a flying ****! While there's so much money sloshing around the fans that turn up on a match day are neither here nor there. Its replica shirt sales in Singapore, TV rights in China and coffee bean 'partners' in Illinois that are driving profits now. The match day 'fans' don't even figure in the equation

Had what coming exactly?

The fans taking direct action to hit the owners the only place they feel it. In their wallets. I can't imagine they're relishing the prospect of more games cancelled by protests (for which there are bound to be penalties) or scenes like yesterdays being broadcast around the world which hardly does their 'brand' much good.

Next weekends top of the table clash of the ESL soccerball between the Manchester Devils and the Liverpool Lightning will be live from Dubai on pay-per-view, with analysis from the studio at the end of every quarter

This was essentially the owners' vision. It's just that Perez was the only one mental enough to come straight out and say it.

What is needed is a complete overhaul of the regulation of club ownership. But I have no idea how this can now be achieved. We are now so far down the road already, with even relatively small clubs owned by foreign investors.

The Germans seem to be phenomenally successful despite (because of) legal requirement for 50% fan ownership.

Reality does not reflect that fantasy.

Indeed…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RB_Leipzig#Organization_and_finance

God love United but would you suddenly sell up in their position on the back of yesterday? Geographically remote owners, worldwide income streams where match day income is guaranteed even if those yesterday boycott the pies.

They’ve never given a toss that the fans all hate them. Just the same as Mike Ashley doesn’t. As long as the money keeps rolling in.

But all those channels that were meant to be broadcasting that game around the world, and all the firms with adverts booked at half time are going to want their money back now.

And will there be points deductions? That could cost a top four finish, which is hundreds of millions in lost revenue.

This is the only thing they’re interested in. When it starts costing them, that’s when they’ll start to take some notice

I asked my brother-in-law this exact question back when it all kicked off and the look I got back was akin to if I'd just asked to kill and eat his son. The thought of abandoning 'his' team is just unthinkable, pretty much no matter what they do.

For many supporters it’s a lot more than that. Many folk who by a Sky Sports subscription are watching a lot more than 90 mins per week.

My brother-in-law is one of those people that will happily sit indoors watching every match that has any remote influence of how his team (Manchester United) place in whatever tournament they're in, even if it's lovely and sunny outside and everyone else is in the garden. He's completely addicted to watching football, at the expense of lots of things. I think I've seen him actually kick a football a handful of times and never in an actual game. He did try to once argue it was the same as me with my F1 and WCDH viewing but his case fell down when he realised that A: it's infinitely less number of hours of viewing time per week/year B: I actually partake in the sports - occasionally go karting and ride bikes a lot, even the odd race! and C: I don't spend £70+ a month on a Sky subscription so I can sit on the sofa with a beer most evenings. I actually feel sorry for my sister about it all as she may well have him home most nights with her but he's just 'there', not actually interacting with her or his kids for longer than a few minutes.

I may not like football but I can see why the Super League proposal has peeved off the fans but they really don't help themselves with their blind support for 'their' team.

I'm wondering if post covid the grounds will be emptier? There were signs of it outside the big clubs before lockdown

Whether that effects the televised 'product' remains to be seen as the owners could probably get away with piping crowd sounds in like they're now used to doing

Swathes of empty seats might concern the owners but theyll probably just put all the fans in the stand opposite the main camera

The otherjonv

Because we can’t. We’re addicted, OK? We know it’s bad for us, particularly fans of nondescript teams that have a good season every 20 years or so, and the rest is a mix of money sucking and self loathing. But give it up?

You might as well suggest that the best way to deal with atmospheric pollution is to stop breathing 😉

But why that team ???
Why not the locals in the park ??
Or if enjoyment is watching people better than you (and a bit of an assumption) a local team?

If you ever want to watch Woking live who are apparently quite good but also a very family/inclusive atmosphere, you're welcome to free parking on my drive but I'll be off cycling 😉

I’m wondering if post covid the grounds will be emptier? There were signs of it outside the big clubs before lockdown

A couple of days before they announced lockdown, Liverpool played Atletico Madrid at Anfield in the champions league. The ground was full to capacity including 5,000 fans who had flown in from Madrid which was the epicentre of Covid infection in Europe at the time.

Absolute madness!

Anyone with any reasonable sense of self-preservation would have been nowhere near the place.

I think that answers your question about whether you’ll see emptier grounds or not. If they allowed everyone back in for this weekends games, the grounds would be packed to capacity again

Maybe it is easier/best to not try to understand the whys - how many of us have tried to explain our obsession/passion for mountain biking to have blank looks or questions like, '...but it is just a bike...' or '...are you not too old to be playing on a bike...'? Football clearly has the same passions and for those not involved with it, they ask similar questions.

For those who are fans of football, it can be all consuming, for those who have no interest in it (like me), they see it for what it appears to be these days - a money-making business. For the fans though, it is far more than that...

I've a mate who is a real football fan - doesn't really play, but follows his team religiously. Fortunately, he knows I can't stand it so we don't talk about it much, but I do enjoy asking him deliberately stupid questions about his team and listen to him getting wound up. He is a pretty normal guy - until a football game is on the tv and then he changes very quickly into a totally different person - screaming at the tv - he seems oblivious to the change whilst the football is on.

As I said in my first post on this thread (and again at the start of this one) - in the cold light of day, football is just a business to the high up people, the fact the fans see it as far more than that just ensures the cash-cow just keeps on paying.

Football clearly has the same passions and for those not involved with it, they ask similar questions.

For people playing football maybe. I think most of us would find it somewhat odd if someone started announcing how "we" had a really nice run at the UCI championships.
It does seem to be a substitute for religion for some. I vaguely remember that one of the more nutty imams at Finsbury park did use the Arsenal supporters as an example for the sort of passion he wanted to get from the worshippers.

other fans

But why that team ???

Because it's my local team. The first team I ever saw. The one I went to with my Grandad when I got addicted. No more or less than that.

That’s my theory anyway, probably wrong. What do you think?

I think there's a lot of truth to what you wrote. Whenever I've been to the football (not much in the last few years) a large part of the appeal is feeling part of a mass of unified energy (with a clear enemy/opposition). At the risk of sounding ****y there used to be a sense of community pride/working class solidarity attached but seems like mostly only the tribalism is left now.

theotherjonv

Because it’s my local team. The first team I ever saw. The one I went to with my Grandad when I got addicted. No more or less than that.

I guess what I mean is if you like following football don't like what that "team"/"Business" etc. has become then why not just pick a different team? A bit like one of my mates who had his first MTB experience at Swinley (hiring) and for ages he's always go to Swinley because it ewas where he had his 1st experience ... even though he lives much closer to Peaslake.

Football wise I know a bloke locally who was born in Leeds but also supports Woking because he lives here... but for some reason he's criticised for that and "not a real fan" according to some of the diehard supporters... yet few of the players are local ... all seems a bit mysterious...

It does seem to be a substitute for religion for some.

More like it IS a religion for some. I remember my first day starting my old job and the look of horror on my new colleague's faces when they asked who I supported and I told them I'm not interested in football! I pretty much became an outcast to a certain group that second as anyone who doesn't like 'The Beautiful Game' must be a wrong 'un.

I had similar experience but probably not helped by me saying that the sports I did/followed required more than 1 ball...
Took several months for them to work out my humour.

In answer to the first question - Why don't fat people stop eating; why don't alcoholics just stop drinking?

Football is going through a long change and like all culture change it's going to take a couple of generations before the new reality gets properly absorbed.
I remember when it was a regular thing in Friday nights and Saturday mornings talking to family "Are you thinking of going to the Villa this afternoon? Well if you do, see you in the usual place" - by the right hand stanchion in the Holte End. Just walk up to the turnstile at 20 to 3, pay the fiver and go in.
It's a very different experience these days. So those protestors aren't really protesting about anything tangible, but mourning a loss of something that in many cases only their parents' generation enjoyed. And what young person doesn't enjoy a bit of unfocused tribal posturing?

My daughter can be excused having Crystal Palace as her 2nd club. She currently lives on Holmesdale Road.

I guess what I mean is if you like following football don’t like what that “team”/”Business” etc. has become then why not just pick a different team?

I can't really explain, without repeating the previous answer. I mean, why not all become City fans, and support a team that plays brilliant football and wins trophies.

It wouldn't be the same team my grandad took me to. The one where I'd be all excited all day about, that my Grandma would make us sandwiches for. Parking his car in the sidestreet and walking there holding his hand with all the other men and kids. Him carrying a beer crate for me to stand on, or later when I was older being allowed down the front by the others on the terrace, and being told at final whistle to stay there and he'd come down to find me.

The place where I saw supermac, and then years a later as a student going to the game on my own after he was too ill, and seeing this young cheekie geordie Gascoigne.

We've not won anything since I've been born. They're owned by an absolute shite. Change, never.

I can understand all that...as much as I've no interest in football (in the sense of following any of it), I completely get why or how a fan could be a fan and it isn't something that can (or should) just be changed with a clap of the hands.

Fans of a club like Manchester United could instigate change by leaving the stadium empty, not buy merch and boycott sponsors. They provide the revenue and have massive power.

They don't though because they don't want to lose their season ticket slot and like wearing polyester t-shirts to the pub.

This shows how much they *actually* want it.

Coincidentally, FB memories has just informed me that it’s 7 years today since I took my daughter to her first match. She was 9.

I’ll never forget the look on her face as she first walked out on to the terraces at Old Trafford, with the Stetford End in full voice, her taking it all in with a massive grin on her face.

We were shit and lost 2-1 😂 she still loves coming to the match with me. It’s an event. A pilgrimage of sorts. Quality dad and daughter time, when you both feel part of something bigger.

Any big sporting event is brilliant, but something like a midweek champions league game against Real or Bayern, under the lights at Old Trafford (or Anfield, or the Brige) is another level altogether. The atmosphere is incredible. And a lot of that is down to what a lot of people sneeringly deride as ‘tribalism’

I see this thread has now descended, somewhat predictably into sniffily looking down from the usual ivory towers at football fans

First person to compare it derisively to Rugby (game of gentlemen blah, blah, blah...etc, etc...) due in 3..2..1...

What happened to FCUM who were formed in protest at the Glazer takeover?

This all feels a world away as a League 2 club supporter (although the reason I still support them probably has a lot to do with living 1000 miles away so I don't actually have to suffer them...)

It wouldn’t be the same team my grandad took me to. The one where I’d be all excited all day about, that my Grandma would make us sandwiches for. Parking his car in the sidestreet and walking there holding his hand with all the other men and kids. Him carrying a beer crate for me to stand on, or later when I was older being allowed down the front by the others on the terrace, and being told at final whistle to stay there and he’d come down to find me.

We’ve not won anything since I’ve been born.

I guess the lack of success is to a large extent what makes them the same club ???
Many of the younger supporters locally are all "optimisitic*" whereas a lot of the family and older supporters don't want promotion because it won't be the same club.

*Optimistic means expand the current 6000 seater that averages 1200 on home games to a 10,000 seater and a shed load of debt

You are wrong hugo...the fans are no longer just in the city or town the team are from, football is global, so having no fans in a stadium won't make any odds as the global reach will still be had and there are plenty fans globally, so it isn't possible to not turn up and have an impact.

This ^^^

Covid has shown the ‘big 6’ (I hate that expression and everything it apparently represents) they don’t need fans in the stadiums at all for the money to keep rolling in.

So why have season tickets? Why own ‘home’ stadiums at all, with all that expense to maintain? Why not just be a nomadic global franchise and play the matches in whichever arena in whichever country will pay the most to host them? It makes perfect sense. Less costs, more corporate hospitality and global pay-per-view. Like big boxing matches.

That’s what the ‘Superleague’ is ultimately all about, make no mistake. That’s what they want

Somewhat unsurprisingly, it’s not what the fans want

Somewhat unsurprisingly, it’s not what the fans want

Its not what some fans want. I reckon for some teams having them migrate round the world would please a larger number of their fans than the current approach.

Attendance AND merch.

Manchester United make 18% of their revenue from match day activities and 44% from the commercial side.

Even losing the 18% is a massive deal and cutting into the 44% would be catastrophic. Player salaries are £176m alone.

Also, you should be careful about describing "global fans" as something lesser. Those fans are as fanatical as any closer to Stretford and would happily join any organised group action to stop the revenue.

It won't happen because the fans couldn't organise something in a brewery and they don't actually care enough.

The Glazers ARE rinsing the cash out of United but the majority of that cash is given to them by supporters who whinge and complain they're powerless.

We can't do anything they cry!

Is that a 2 quid t-shirt you're wearing the you gave the Glazers 70 quid for?

Yeah, but...

If you’re going to be so sneering, condescending and patronising, you’d probably be better off if you actually knew what you were on about

Even losing the 18% is a massive deal and cutting into the 44% would be catastrophic.

you’ve seen the figures being bandied around for the ‘Superleague’ right? It’ll more than compensate. And that’s guaranteed revenue, year in year out, whatever happens

The holy grail. Ker-*ing-ching!

Finish the bottom of the league? No problem. There’s no relegation.

Fail to finish in the top four? No problem. The revenue is still guaranteed.

You can’t see why we’ve got a problem with that closed shop?

Also, you should be careful about describing “global fans” as something lesser.

Absolutely nobody has done. Far from it.

You think that nomadic touring teams will allow those fans in Singapore and Malaysia to watch these teams? Seriously?

Take a look at any FA Cup game at Wembley, 10 minutes after half time. All the best seats in the house are empty. Why? Because they’re all corporate hospitality and they’d rather have another glass of fizz than bother to watch the match. Real fans would give their right arm for seats like that

That’s the ‘fan’ that the Superleague are after. Or are you naive enough to believe that’s not the case?

This is about massively increasing the already obscene amounts of money they’re making. It’s a circus, and * the fans!

The part of all of this I have never understood is the level of obsession that fans have. You just don’t see it in other sports and I don’t know what it is about football that drives this obsession

Deep down football is an unjust game. Its flawed in the sense that in a game where  two reasonably matched teams   - such as two teams in the same division - compete against each other its practically deadlock - its too difficult to score a goal in football so much so that an hour and a half of playing can take place and no goals get scored at all - 22 millionaires failing to do the one thing tens of millions of people are paying to watch them do -  and its not even embarrassing and nobody asks for a refund.

Most sports have rules configured with fairness in mind and a scoring or judging system that means that the best team / player wins and the score reflects how well all the competitors played - one team that's a little bit better would win a match by scoring a few more points in a competition where lots of points were scored because both teams were good. Football results aren't really like that -the best team can lose, both teams can score nothing - the result is as likely to reflect a mishap or a poor refereeing decision as the performance of either team. You could change all that by making the goals a little bit bigger - but doing that would probably cost the sport billions.

I don't know if many fans register it but the excitement comes from the unjustness of the game - it means theres drama in a win, and theres hope for underdogs. It makes the whole thing a soap opera  - there are stories about football in the press 7 days a week even in the off season because theres always some unfairness to be debated.

Why don’t they get properly organised and boycott matches, cancel their BSkyB subscriptions for a year and let the clubs feel the financial impact?

because, deep down, I expect the scandal, drama and unfairness of this super league nonsense is just as exciting as the game itself

Take a look at any FA Cup game at Wembley, 10 minutes after half time. All the best seats in the house are empty. Why? Because they’re all corporate hospitality and they’d rather have another glass of fizz than watch the match

Very true. It happens at most big sporting events now, whether its rugby, wimbeldon or the nag racing. Its all about the money and not the fans. Its the wired sense of ownership that fans have I dont get, as was said earlier on about "we" are having a good run. Its how it has transcended from entertainment, which is what all professional sport is, to something more in the eyes of the fans

Its the wierd sense of ownership that fans have I dont get

i’ll just repost what I put on the previous page:

To go some way to understanding the importance of football, it’s worth reading Pies and Prejudice by Stuart Marconi.

The history of football is intertwined with the development of working class communities and has been clung on to during their post-industrial decline, like former mining communities still have their ‘colliery’ brass bands when nobody has been down a pit for decades.

Going off track now, but as an-ex goalkeeper, why when we have a blinder is it somehow seen as less important than the fancy dans at the other end.

22 millionaires failing to do the one thing tens of millions of people are paying to watch them do –  and its not even embarrassing and nobody asks for a refund.

An olden day millionaire 'failing' to do the one thing he was being paid to do thanks to the efforts of another. Sunderland should obviously hand that cup back!

That reminds me of Charlie Brooker’s description of Premiership Football:

22 millionaires ruining a lawn

😂

Re the German model being phenomenally successful, it's Bayern.
There were fan protests at RB Leipzig getting into the BL & when Dortmund went t*ts up and needed a loan that the banks wouldn't support Bayern lent them the money to keep some competition in the league.
Then the phase when VW were chucking money at Wolfsburg....

<edited. Because the two separate bits were too close together >

Real fans would give their right arm for seats like that

Possibly true, so why can't even be arsed to organise themselves into a coherent protest group. They just keep paying the hand that bites the. "Please sir, can I have some more"

I think there's a lot of truth in what Hugo says. But rather than addressing them you appear to have got defensive and accuse him or sneering. Is that perhaps because deep down you think he may have a point?

It won’t happen because the fans couldn’t organise something in a brewery and they don’t actually care enough.

The Glazers ARE rinsing the cash out of United but the majority of that cash is given to them by supporters who whinge and complain they’re powerless.

We can’t do anything they cry!

Is that a 2 quid t-shirt you’re wearing the you gave the Glazers 70 quid for?

Yeah, but…

So why don’t football fans just withdraw support?

To be honest, they probably are, but in dribs and drabs as the longer-term ones give up their season tickets and drift away gradually as they are priced out of it.

As football becomes all about 'the product' rather than 'the club' a fair few 'traditional' supporters may realise the product is a bit shit for the price...

Any big sporting event is brilliant, but something like a midweek champions league game against Real or Bayern, under the lights Europa League game against Granada or Real Sociedad at Old Trafford

FTFY

Ooooooo.... get you!

You’re on pretty thin ice to be making it tribal, aren’t you? Given our relative league positions?

The most pathetic title defence in football history is going to leave a Thursday night in Kazakstan looking like a pretty bloody good result for you lot. You may well not even get that. Normal service is resumed

#midtableobscurity

😂

I think there’s a lot of truth in what Hugo says. But rather than addressing them you appear to have got defensive and accuse him or sneering. Is that perhaps because deep down you think he may have a point?

Seems like you started a thread with the express intention of sneering at football fans and you found yourself an ally who joined in to do the same.

Neither of you seem particularly interested in having explained to you why the ‘obvious’ solutions you’re proposing won’t actually make a blind bit of difference

Well done. Don’t let the facts get in the way.

You can both retire with a brandy and a cigar in your wingbacked leather armchairs in your respective ivory towers and revel in your superiority to the thicko’s who continue to care passionately about their football clubs, and sneer at the conflicted compromises the present situation presents them with

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2010/apr/11/bundesliga-premier-league

An old article, but presents a distinct contrast.

i’ll just repost what I put on the previous page:

To go some way to understanding the importance of football, it’s worth reading Pies and Prejudice by Stuart Marconi.

But that's history, important to an ever decreasing number of supporters as the club has pushed to be the "biggest in the world" at the behest of its support and low and behold they have lost what they once had. The Glazers are a convenient scapegoat. It is sad but inevitable, football has been moving this way for years, there is no integrity in the game and hence its soul has been lost.

An old article, but presents a distinct contrast.

Did you read it?

The final paragraph of the piece is rather telling in its lack of relevance to the current situation.

"In the last three years of the Bundesliga we have three different cup winners and three different champions," Seifert says. "Sepp Herberger, the coach of the West German team that won the 1954 World Cup, said: 'You know why people go to the stadium? Because they don't know how it ends.'"

It also fails to mention (perhaps deliberately) that Borussia Dortmund almost went bankrupt just a few years before that was written and had to take a loan out from Bayern Munich just to meet running costs like paying wages. So 50+1 didn't prevent that.

But that’s history, important to an ever decreasing number of supporters

It does allow some middle class supporters to try and pretend a link to the working class though.
A cursory look shows that it might not be the most academic and unbiased of works.

Fan protests against owners are also nothing new and just part of the game, I remember standing outside main road as a kid chanting "swales out" without any real understanding of what I was protesting about.

Owner's have been ****ing up football clubs since they existed, and fans have voiced their opinions of them. The only new thing is the 24 hour media coverage getting everyone in hysterics about it and a populist government trying to use it to their advantage.

What happened to FCUM who were formed in protest at the Glazer takeover?

Still going, They were featured on Football Focus last weekend I think.

It does allow some middle class supporters to try and pretend a link to the working class though.

And.... BINGO!

We’ve hit peak patronising

Well done to all involved 😂

We’ve hit peak patronising

Having some middle class type wrapping themselves in "we" and "us" whilst going on about working class roots is, I suggest, rather more patronising.
However keep indulging yourself in your fantasy about being a horny handed son of toil.

I’m just a United fan. I didn’t realise we had to burnish our credentials before commenting, comrade...

I know that technically it’s more applicable to Leeds, but Power to the people, and all that...

Solidarity, brother

Isn't it amazing how the PM of the party that is getting away with privatising the NHS by stealth somehow wanted to put the clubs back in the hands of the people?

Or that the party that is criminalising protest says we should listen and understand the frustration of the fans who got the game called off.

And he also had a meeting with Ed Woodward a few days before the Superleague was announced.

I’m sure that they wouldn’t have discussed it, they just randomly got together for a cup of tea and a chat

Because there’s no way that rapacious corporate capitalists like the Glazers have a shared interest with Boris, because he’s a man of the people.

I’m sure he’s watched loads of football. Like Dave, when he could remember which team he was meant to support