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I really dont like this showboating thing and how the country is on tenterhooks awaiting the result of the tories in a hunt for a new leader.
Who honestly gives a f***. They arent celebrities or anything like that, but the media as a whole is treating them this way.
And given that many have failed in the tasks set of them(current state of the UK) it's really a case of scraping the barrel. Or whats left in the barrel as they've scraped most of it out.
The Tories are desperately short of quality candidates, the problem is that Labour is even more lacking.
Still no Patel announcement? When’s the deadline? If it stays that way… I’m predicting Sunak vs Truss going to the members.
Tom Tugnut's voting record back there -
1 - Voted against restrictions to personal freedoms.
2 - Voted 18 times for the UK to leave the EU
Those 2 votes are not compatible...
Deadline is 6pm today.
I doubt patel will stand; most of the cabinet 'big names' are either standing or have publicly declared their support for one of the aspirants.
Additionally, she may have recognised that she has few supporters.
1 – Voted against restrictions to personal freedoms.
How did he vote on the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill? What has he said about The Human Rights Act?
Sunak vs Truss
That, or Sunak vs Mordaunt.
I think Patel is in the awkward position of being too horrible for the moderates, but not horrible enough for the headbangers.
Part of the problem for her is she simply doesnt seem very good at it. Comes out with lots of headlines to make the headbangers excited but then fails to do anything with them.
Result the headbangers are upset she failed to get beyond a headline and everyone else is upset she got to the headline stage.
So no Patel? That sinks Sunak’s chances with the members I reckon. MPs, at a later stage of voting when more people have dropped out, will get behind Truss as the second place stop Sunak candidate… she’ll then go onto mop up some “why did they get rid of Johnson” sympathy with members, which will go against Sunak. So… who put a bet on Truss becoming PM a while back… those odds must be narrowing fast…
Badenoch is a proper loon isn't she? I really do wonder about these people. Do they actually believe this small state nonsense or is it just a smokescreen for a cronyist agenda to line the pockets of their financial backers? It's not like there's a lack of evidence for the failure of market ideology, you can see it in front of your eyes every time you leave your house. Homeless people, urban decay, empty businesses, streets clogged with traffic, potholed roads, crumbling infrastracture. All a result of privatised dysfunctional services or lack of private sector investment. The whole point of the state is to provide a secure and stable environment for the private and public sector to operate. What she's proposing is darwinian anarchy.
Badenoch is a proper loon isn’t she?
Oh god yes.
Interestingly, her and Penny Mordaunt are polling the best amongst the party faithful, apparently because they have the least connection with Boris Johnson
Homeless people, urban decay, empty businesses, streets clogged with traffic, potholed roads, crumbling infrastracture.
Medical insurance, Range Rovers, gated communities, shops turned into buy to let properties… some people see different solutions to these problems. They don’t even see them as problems, just side effects of well working markets. Darwinism indeed.
I rarely see eye to eye with the Tory party membership but at least they've got that right
Badenoch is a proper loon isn’t she? I really do wonder about these people. Do they actually believe this small state nonsense or is it just a smokescreen for a cronyist agenda
She's gone 100% culture war , Spectator have been bigging her up a lot because of this
It may be a toxic, divisive & ultimately short term benefit with long term damage kinda stratagey-
but it engages a lot of the Tory faithful and they need something to latch on to atm
If she makes the final two, she'll be in with a good chance
You have to remember that the Tory party membership think the BBC is run by communists, all immigrants are rapists and murderers, all teachers are actively trying to make kids gay, universities are trying to erase Britains history and all important decisions (despite the Tory's having been in power for 12 years) are taken by some shady 'metropolitan liberal elite’ who are probably jewish and non-binary single parents with bad AIDS
Culture War and tax cuts are all they want to hear about.
Badenoch is a proper loon isn’t she? I really do wonder about these people. Do they actually believe this small state nonsense or is it just a smokescreen for a cronyist agenda to line the pockets of their financial backers?
And nowhere where they have a "small state" are poor-to-ordinary folk better off, but they don't realise this, until it happens...
Medical insurance, Range Rovers, gated communities, shops turned into buy to let properties… some people see different solutions to these problems. They don’t even see them as problems, just side effects of well working markets. Darwinism indeed.
Who schools the medics; provides the roads to drive on; and the conditions for employment to thrive? They can see things as 'different solutions' but without the state they wouldn't be able to enjoy their lives the way they do.
Not that they care or realise.
PriceJohn said
Tom Tugnut’s voting record back there –
1 – Voted against restrictions to personal freedoms.
2 – Voted 18 times for the UK to leave the EUThose 2 votes are not compatible…
re, the voting record for Brexit./ I read that he voted alongside Teresa May to get her original deal through when it was the votes from the other parties and the ERG headbangers that were against it. So you could argue that his voting on Brexit was from the right side of the party line. Knowing that his wife is French and his father in law was a high ranked EU official I am inclined to believe his personal thoughts on EU membership might be a little different.
Of all the candidates so far he comes across as the least unhinged, and potentially most competent!
They can see things as ‘different solutions’ but without the state they wouldn’t be able to enjoy their lives the way they do.
Oh... they're not "solutions" at all... but some see it that way... many have a vote to chose the next PM this summer... and most have a vote come the next election. Oh, and yes they can't really completely isolate themselves from how underfunding negatively effects their own lives... they just have a weird notion that the effects can be kept as much as possible as someone else's problem, if they keep in power people who keep the plight of others "in perspective", and focus doing less of the stuff that only indirectly effects them. Ideally while leaving them as much money as possible to look after themselves and insulate themselves from the decay all around them. Tax cuts for the well off. Nailed to the mast of every candidate.
That little Badenoch speech had a perfect example of how if you can look at the world from the wrong angle... the "solutions" are can be viewed as the problem, and the "problems" become the solutions.... she correctly identifies falling real incomes over the last ten years... but then attributes that to "net zero" commitments... and, yes, many of the people she needs the support of see things backwards like that as well. Blaming the "green agenda" will become part of this leadership battle, and a dividing force at future elections. You could see it coming over the hill a decade ago... here it comes...
Of all the candidates so far he comes across as the least unhinged, and potentially most competent!
He doesn't stand a chance.
Maybe next time.
Do they actually believe this small state nonsense or is it just a smokescreen for a cronyist agenda to line the pockets of their financial backers? It’s not like there’s a lack of evidence for the failure of market ideology, you can see it in front of your eyes every time you leave your house. Homeless people, urban decay, empty businesses, streets clogged with traffic, potholed roads, crumbling infrastracture.
Why on earth would the ruling elite see that as "market ideology" failure?
As long as they maintain their current wealth with the possibility of more ever increasing wealth they have every reason to be satisfied with market ideology.
Everyone knows 'the market' doesn't solve all of society's problems, which is why we have governments.
Of all the candidates so far he comes across as the least unhinged, and potentially most competent!
Hardly a high watermark in Brexit Britain, really, is it?
Hi... vote for me! I'm slightly less mental and possibly a tad more competent than Liz Truss
I think I want Johnson back.
Why on earth would the ruling elite see that as “market ideology” failure?
I agree, the question though is whether the likes of Badenoch and other junior tory travellers actually believe it, because that's exactly what it looks like. I mean they're not stupid people are they? The most generous interpretation is that they've been brainwashed by an academic, media and political establishment which has spent 40 years telling everyone that this is the only way the world can work. The more likely answer is that they're a bunch of self-interested sociopaths who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.
the question though is whether the likes of Badenoch and other junior tory travellers actually believe it
Of course Tory politicians don't believe what they tell voters. The point is to make the voters believe it. That is what matters. Hence the multitude of Tory myths.
Of course Tory politicians don’t believe what they tell voters.
I think that there's a rump of them - all Brexiteers - who are so profoundly stupid that they believe every word of it, despite all evidence to the contrary. Actually... they're so breathtakingly thick they probably don't actually understand it in the first place, but believe it and believe in it they do. Like articles of faith.
Immediately, off the top of my head I can think of Mark Francois, John Redwood, Desmond Swayne, Peter Bone. There are many, many others
I think that there’s a rump of them – all Brexiteers – who are so profoundly stupid that they believe every word of it, despite all evidence to the contrary.
I'm not sure it's pure stupidity, more like they are so psychologically invested in the cult that no alternative view even gets processed. It would be such a devastating blow to their self image to understand the truth, that there can be no internal debate at all.
Do they actually believe this small state nonsense
Right wingers choose to believe it because it absolves them of the responsibility towards their fellow humans. If someone tells you 'hey don't worry about them, it's their own fault, you just look after yourself' that's mentally very easy. If you see someone homeless, you might feel bad for them but if you tell yourself that it's their own fault they're in that situation it means you don't have to feel bad. If you see migrants drowning in the Channel on telly, you'd be really upset if you thought they were innocent, but if you think they are scum it's easier. Bad feelings go away.
Tory politicians either believe this themselves, or know that they can get voters to believe it and vote for them. They don't think that these policies help anyone, because they literally don't care about the people who suffer. I mean they are human, they probably would care if they really understood what goes on, but they don't want to care because caring is hard.
The Tories have just denied Labour the right to have a vote of no confidence. Can they do that? Well, obviously they can, because they just did. But I've never heard of that happening before! Isn't that a bit dodgy?!?
It has happened before. Lots of little tricks the government can use to buy themselves some time and hold off a vote… it’s not conventional to do so for long, if at all, but Johnson is still PM… damn convention.
Something to think about… it took the FCO three weeks to get Johnson to move out after he resigned from that post, when the convention is you move within a day of no longer being Secretary of state. Expect lots of that kind of thing to come… what’s expected is irrelevant to Johnson, he’ll just bat things away with any cunning trick he can. He doesn’t even have to pretend to be reasonable now.
Right wingers choose to believe it because it absolves them of the responsibility towards their fellow humans. If someone tells you ‘hey don’t worry about them, it’s their own fault, you just look after yourself’ that’s mentally very easy.
Also, all those things that are wrong in your own life? That's someone else's fault as well. You're great, you've just been dealt a poor hand.
[ironyometer gif]
Javid withdraws.
Team sad
Never stood a chance. I thought he’d stay in for the first round though, to try and get himself the chancellor job with his “withdrawing to support” line before round two.
No Patel then?
Sunak vs Truss it is. The rest is all noise.
I had my money on Truss from months ago. A woman so dense she has her own gravity field
Dazh
Yes they are that dim different sorts of itelligence remember? Having degrees and being good at detail and memory recall does not equal intelligence
Kemi Badenoch
Suella Braverman
Jeremy Hunt
Penny Mordaunt
Rishi Sunak
Liz Truss
Tom Tugendhat
Nadhim Zahawi
The right wing MPs may well go Mordaunt when push comes to shove. They must realise that Truss will be a gift for Labourer
Never stood a chance. I thought he’d stay in for the first round though
Seems to be less him choosing to withdraw as opposed to failing to get twenty nominations.
Who cares!
They are all a bunch of liars!
Sunak to be heavily favoured by MPs, but Truss I suspect will appeal more to the membership.
The question is, will MPs tactically vote to stop Truss being one of the final two?
I had my money on Truss from months ago. A woman so dense she has her own gravity field
I literally have money on it. I’ve just had a look at my betting app and I’d stuck a fiver on her as next leader last September at 5/1
She’s presently 4/1 with Rishi favourite at 2.5/1 and Penny at 3/1. As far as the bookies are concerned, them’s yer runners. Nobody else in it
I still think it’ll pay out. If Truss makes it to the final two then she’ll walk it with the membership, as her third rate Thatcher tribute act seems to arouse things in the pale, male and stale majority whole still their overloaded pacemakers and hand her the keys to number ten
God help us!!
Kemi Badenoch
Suella Braverman
Jeremy Hunt
Penny Mordaunt
Rishi Sunak
Liz Truss
Tom Tugendhat
Nadhim Zahawi
It's like a really shit remake of The Hateful Eight...
It’s like a really shit remake of The Hateful Eight…
Worst ever series of The Apprentice....
She’s presently 4/1 with Rishi favourite at 2.5/1 and Penny at 3/1
Oddschecker has Penny and Rishi neck and neck. Truss at 4/1. Give or take.
I've put a fiver on Mordaunt.
Hunt says it'd be immoral to offer tax cuts as part of his bid. Oh no, sorry, personal tax cuts. Corporate tax cuts though, honk honk coming through.
They're missing a trick here though- since shrodinger's johnson can't face a no confidence bid as he's "resigned", but hasn't really resigned and is still prime minister, why not leave him in that quantum state forever so he can rule indefintely?
With sunak having withdrawn in a lame attempt to save face there must be short odds on him standing down as an MP.
I'd be surprised if that didn't happen within 6 months.
Did he?
Do you mean Javid?
He dropped out just before the deadline.
Yes, sorry, I meant javid; should have known as I posted about his withdrawal as soon as it was announced!
Doh...
I’ve a horrible Morbid curiosity about what bits of the state Badenoch would like to get rid of. Education reduced to a voucher to buy off a private provider, which is so low you need to top up? US style health medical insurance but worse. Scrapping social security, replace with individual private insurance? Everything that costs the government a lot, but would be unaffordable for the majority of people if they had to pay for it privately.
Blimey that other thread got shut sharpish after just one perl clutching Tory piped up, are we not allowed to be mean about Torys anymore?
Seems like the Mail is laying into Sunak's economic record with an article by The Haunted Pencil. Seeing as that's what 90% of the Tory faithful read it's going to set the tone for the next few weeks.
We're going to end up with Truss aren't we. That's so depressing. Probably no worse than Johnson but definitely not any better.
I'm imagining Truss will be Johnson but without intelligence, sociopathic charm, and wit.
Puppet. For someone.
The thing that really annoys me is that they are all harping on about the various crises we're facing yet they are spending all of their time campaigning rather than doing their ******* day job. This must mean that there civil servants are running everything (as usual) so why do we need a Govt?
Can't they just dissolve Parliament?
This must mean that there civil servants are running everything (as usual) so why do we need a Govt?
You need a government, what you don't need is MPs and the current shitty system.
The civil servants do the work but democracy means you need to vote for stuff somehow. There are many ways that could be done more effectively that current MP approach.
As far as the bookies are concerned, them’s yer runners. Nobody else in it
It's not what the Bookies think, it's where the money has been placed.
Even your "fiver" influences the odds.
rather than doing their ******* day job
You could argue that, them not doing their day job is beneficial on balance ...
To busy harming each other to harm focus on harming the Hoi Polloi
are we not allowed to be mean about Torys anymore?
Apparently not. But the irony of having a lefty thread shut down by a pearl-clutching snowflake anti-cancel culture defender of free speech has not passed un-noticed.
Yeah I thought mefty had closed the door on the way out, I can't believe another Tory Party supporter managed to stumble into the echo chamber.
It caused complete chaos until a mod got a firm grip of the situation and closed the thread.
Hopefully normality has returned and no one with any pro-Tory views will be upsetting the established consensus.
The Netherlands had no functioning government for over a year recently. Civil servants kept things going with zero policy changes. The public didn't really notice
Did anyone catch Nadhim Zahawi on radio 4 this morning, setting out what was apparently his 'economic agenda'?
Lets just say that the word 'hope' was doing a lot of heavy lifting.
He's going to go for tax cuts but when asked how on earth he was going to fund them he replied that he HOPED that inflation would have eased by next year and that he HOPED that economic growth would have picked up by then too. He couldn't list anything he was actually going to do other than HOPE that these things happened.
So, the message from the present Chancellor of the Exchequer is... fingers crossed everybody, it might not be as bad as everyone says
Civil servants kept things going with zero policy changes. The public didn’t really notice
Yes but clearly falls apart if you actually want/need policy changes.
Ernie
Its all about viewpoints. Yes the politcs threads mainly have lefties shouting but i find the general consensus on here to be firmly rightwing
So, the message from the present Chancellor of the Exchequer is… fingers crossed everybody, it might not be as bad as everyone says
That tbf, is arguably an example of honesty that in the present climate us most unusual.
Yeah I thought mefty had closed the door on the way out, I can’t believe another Tory Party supporter managed to stumble into the echo chamber.
It caused complete chaos until a mod got a firm grip of the situation and closed the thread.
Hopefully normality has returned and no one with any pro-Tory views will be upsetting the established consensus.
Looking at the thread, I expect it was closed as being too close of a duplicate to this one. I likely would have closed it for that reason.
Apologies if that doesn't fit with your agenda.
My agenda?
Penny has just started her launch with Fatcha and the Falklands.
You get the feeling she's itching to send a task force to the Black Sea
Penny looking strong!
TJagain wrote
Yes the politcs threads mainly have lefties shouting but i find the general consensus on here to be firmly rightwing
Really? I would say the median political stance is firmly in the middle ground. Somewhere along lines of a Scandi/German social democracy. Happy for state ownership of essential industry and healthcare but a wish for enterprise to be rewarded whilst still maintaining a social safety-net for those in society less able to contribute for whatever reason, paid for via general taxation. I guess that "Who pays & how much" dictates which side of the centre line ones personal views lie.
Happy for state ownership of essential industry and healthcare but a wish for enterprise to be rewarded whilst still maintaining a social safety-net for those in society less able to contribute for whatever reason, paid for via general taxation.
I think you're right there. Of course, these are the views described as 'woke leftyism' by the current Tory party.
Really? I would say the median political stance is firmly in the middle ground. Somewhere along lines of a Scandi/German social democracy. Happy for state ownership of essential industry and healthcare but a wish for enterprise to be rewarded whilst still maintaining a social safety-net for those in society less able to contribute for whatever reason, paid for via general taxation. I guess that “Who pays & how much” dictates which side of the centre line ones personal views lie.
You centrist bastard.* ALL of this is your fault. 😃
*not really
Somewhere along lines of a Scandi/German social democracy.
And yet a few years ago when the labour party were offering standard northern european social democratic policies almost everyone on here was ranting and raving about communists, sixth formers, trots, the 1970s and Derek Hatton. No, TJ is right, the consensus here is right wing. The fact that you think this is 'centrist' only demonstrates how much political views have shifted rightwards in this country.
"Penny has just started her launch with Fatcha and the Falklands."
I wonder how many of the plastic patriots watched that Falklands documentary that was shown recently and discussed on here?
"trots,"
Who the cap fits, let them wear it.
I think this forum reflects the last 50 years of Govt, most contributors are centrist in views yet they'll argue to the nth degree about minor points when in reality they're not that far apart in their views. They just want to be more correct than others and the rest of us have to suffer their vexatious rantings.
There are very few regular posters who are fully to the right, or left. There are some who often display they are hard of thinking, to use that wonderful term, evidenced on the Covid thread and other posts but deep down they're not that different in their politics .
Dazh gets my point. What is now considered centerist here would be right wing anywhere else in Europe
Labour sit centre right now and Tory far right.
The consensus on here is frimly comfy middle class centre right im allright jack Imo.
My personal politics are centre left with a strong green tinge. That position is seen as radical on here .
Examples. I understand that the uk is a low tax country still and want significant tax rises to provide decent services. Most on here seem to believe we are high tax. What you need to remember when looking at comparisons is that all our healthcare is paid from tax. Most countries you pay healthcare on top once you earn over a basic amount
Oh christ! Spare us the middle class revolutionaries burnishing their credentials 😉