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Had Corbyn come out in favour of Brexit,
Oh dear. This thread is about the next PM. You realise you have invoked the rage of Binners and the other thread police? Expect a childish meme in response and some incoherent ranting about sixth formers.
Truss is going to do the same of course but far less convincingly.
She looks like she's permanently telling a total pork(er).
Whereas with Johnson it was multum porcus pius.
So when will the "big news" break? One second past midnight tonight?
12.30 monday; anti climax.
Tomorrow lunchtime AFAIK.
It occurs to me that Truss may be holding off telling us her plan to ease cost of living because it involves chucking around large amounts of public money, and that's the sort of thing that the party members whose votes she needs don't like.
I hope so anyway. I mean if all she cares about is the economy then she's going to have to, like Sunak did during COVID. Otherwise the economy is utterly trashed, no-one's going to be able to spend anything
If shippers is to be believed the pritstick is out.
A small pinprick...of good news.
It occurs to me that Truss may be holding off telling us her plan to ease cost of living because it involves chucking around large amounts of public money, and that’s the sort of thing that the party members whose votes she needs don’t like.
Isn't all the voting done now?
Plus they love bloody a PM splashing the cash, it means there's more lovely contracts to be had!
"Have you met my mate Roger? He Imports PPE and Gas, how astute of you yes we do both have the same old school tie..."
If shippers is to be believed the pritstick is out.
A small pinprick…of good news.
Boris leaving was meant to be good news, and somehow the tories took that away from us, so i'll hold fire on any positives of a Truss leadership!
frankconway
anti climax.
Much like being Jacob Rees-Mogg's wife.
Isn’t all the voting done now?
Expect a probable U-turn but not necessarily a handbrake turn - she will need more than just a few hours. No one can backtrack that quickly.
The emergency budget will reveal what she intends to do. If it involves backtracking from her previous positions she could claim that until she received her briefs as PM she hadn't been aware of just how the serious the situation was. However implausible that might be for a senior Cabinet member to claim.
I don't think so, given the voting was over on Friday she didn't need to say the following today.
Liz Truss has said it is fair to give higher earners more money back through tax cuts, saying recent Tory policy has failed to grow the economy.
It'll be tax cuts not handouts from dear Lizzie.
Liz Truss has said it is fair to give higher earners more money back through tax cuts
Well she probably intends to do that. It doesn't necessarily mean that she won't do a U-turn on what she called "handouts". If she ignores the consequences of rising energy bills to households, businesses, schools, hospitals, etc, she does so at her perils.
It's probably best to wait for the emergency budget but it would be surprising if she is daft enough not to backtrack. She has done plenty of U-turns in the past.
ernie - your shortest and most relevant post for aeons; note you still haven't moved to becoming a paid subscriber 😉
Big storm outside - clearly Truss and her Cauldron making tax spells.
^^Ha, you in Kent? We just had it go over a, while back.
Long way from you up in Nottinghamshire.
It occurs to me that Truss may be holding off telling us her plan to ease cost of living because it involves chucking around large amounts of public money, and that’s the sort of thing that the party members whose votes she needs don’t like.
I hope so anyway. I mean if all she cares about is the economy then she’s going to have to, like Sunak did during COVID. Otherwise the economy is utterly trashed, no-one’s going to be able to spend anything
Yep, if she doesn’t do it the wheels will come off,it’s another covid furlough scenario.
Expect a probable U-turn but not necessarily a handbrake turn – she will need more than just a few hours. No one can backtrack that quickly.
I believe two things.
1: the only thing liz truss truly believes in is liz truss’s career.
2: not delivering a substantial package, quickly, will harm that career.
It occurs to me that Truss may be holding off telling us her plan to ease cost of living because it involves chucking around large amounts of public money, and that’s the sort of thing that the party members whose votes she needs don’t like.
Yes this has definitely been the case for several weeks now - there has been too much speculation of what she may or may not do because of the stupid things she's been saying.
It's given us pages of entertainment but it's all meaningless until something is announced.
They're desperate to paint the picture they're not left wing but will simply have to use the power of the state to solve this.
(None of this guarantees the success of a package they offer up.)
In the leadership battle if Truss had said she'd has got to spend £xxxx then Sunak would have used it as a stick to beat her.
Prediction: she will try to rehash the original Tory plan of offering a discount on bills now, repaid by bill payers in future years, backed by government loans. This won’t wash with the public (again), and by Christmas she’ll be implementing Labour’s plan for household bills from the summer instead… once that almost inevitable upturn is completed the focus will then, finally, shift to fuel bills for small companies, as many close… again, with the government being led by the nose by public opinion and Labour short term policy proposals towards a necessary government funded intervention.
Stop whining man! Left wingers didn’t give us brexit, the right wing remainers in the Labour Party and Lib Dems did that. Go and thank them.
Bollox - anyone who either voted for Brexit in 2016 or Tory in 2019 gave us this shitshow - stop trying to change history!
Prediction: she will try to rehash the original Tory plan of offering a discount on bills now, repaid by bill payers in future years, backed by government loans. This won’t wash with the public, and by Christmas she’ll be implementing Labour’s plan from the summer instead… when the focus will then, finally, shift to on fuel bills for small companies, as many close… again, with the government being led by the nose by public opinion and Labour short term policy proposals.
I'm terrified by the loan approach. I really hope they don't go with that.
I have simply no idea what they will do.
Delaying the issue for later months is quite likely though I can see the strategy in that.
(I was thinking of them them revisiting a furlough type package with some sort of tax credit system. But can't see how that would be implemented.)
I really hope they don’t go with that.
She’ll try it, and be pushed away from it by the response to it. Fast. It’ll be interesting to see if this process plays out with the “number ten sources say” approach that Johnson used to test policies, or in a more transparent way.
We ate not but the labour / tory pact in Scotland run my a rightwinger saved Mays government by gifting her 10 mps and the anti Corbyn action of the rightwingers cost us english labour mps so also helped mays government. Without those two things Mays government would have fallen and Brexit would have been much less likely and even if it happened much less damaging
Oh, I’ve said it before, but the approach to household bills should be a set amount of low cost energy for all, with higher volume users (sorry rural folk) paying higher rates for the extra they use. My old mum shouldn’t be paying the same per a unit to have a hot cup of tea in the morning as someone heating their hot tub. Those on a restricted income shouldn’t be scared of using the basics of life, but we still need to reward people for reducing their energy use [both to get us through this particular energy crisis, and slow down the ongoing and serious damage of climate change].
Bills for companies… that’s going to be super pressing this winter… but let’s keep the lights on for households first. Truss will have to sort both. Labour will probably have to show her the way.
Labour will probably have to show her the way
They will almost certainly reach above Labour (because Labour never offer enough.) In terms of support.
Politically it makes total sense to go hard and fast.
The Tories are are prepared to use Q/E and Labour are committed to balancing the books. That leaves Labour short in my opinion of solid medium term solutions.
Is it time to start the Liz! Truss! thread yet?
12:30
Is it time to start the Liz! Truss! thread yet?
Please do.
No mention of any other party leaders in that thread though.
We enjoy uncontextualized criticism of anyone apart from Starmer here
The domestic bills are a massive problem but the biggest threat are the uncapped commercial bills.
Mass bankruptcies and mass unemployment in a few months.
Is it time to start the Liz! Truss! thread yet?
I was way ahead of everyone. Still not sure why the mods saw fit to close this but hey-ho 🤷♂️
So if news reports this morning are correct Truss is going to freeze energy bills (among other things) for all consumers, including as I understand it businesses. That means one thing, an election before christmas.
I am just hoping, merely for the only giggles this whole shitshow will give me, that Sunak gets announced as the winner. That would be hilarious - if only briefly.
Mods - is now the time to reopen the "old" thread?
So there's whiff of Truss 'furlough' levels of spending circulating on James O'Brien and now Centrists jumping through hoops to misunderstand national debt and government spending, and how we can't spend that much.
You can't make it up. (well you can because Centrists don't like left-wing economic solutions when they're on the table.)
If she does go for this (which I'm not really sure - furlough levels of spending sounds extreme) - Starmer will be left with only fiscal credibilty to talk about. And then he's done.
https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1566711153530642432?s=20&t=N_GRIzQ5P8iO6oPDMEjU9Q
Rone. Please stop calling them centrist as they are not. They are right wing. At least put it in inverted commas
If she does go for this
My money is on something like the Scottish Power plan, without the loan bit. Whatever it is it'll be more than labour are proposing to do. Once again Starmer misses an open goal.
Rone. Please stop calling them centrist as they are not. They are right wing. At least put it in inverted comma
I've written about this before.
Centrists are fiscally right-wing/pro markets but don't identify as such so they are called Centrists to help this distinction. And the other key distinction is they believe money is generated by the wealthy to pay for the state - but the wealthy should pay their tax for that reason.
That's a key difference.
I completely agree with your sentiment but it doesn't help describe a general position to just call them right-wing.
The majority of this country only think about the now. If she does that and calls an election we’ll have four more years of Conservatives in power. They’ve created a perfect storm by getting everyone to within a few days panic and riots, so that she fixes it this winter and becomes the heroine of the nation for six months at least.
In facts it’s so clever I’d be surprised if it were true.
In facts it’s so clever I’d be surprised if it were true.
I don't want to quote my own words but I always thought electorally people underestimated Truss because of lots of ridiculous sound-bites.
That said she can still be a right-wing mess at the same time when she executes ideas.
hey’ve created a perfect storm by getting everyone to within a few days panic
It's a Tory thing - to do something at the very last minute.
Having said all this can you imagine if Sunak won! LMFAO.
Actually furlough was 70bn so it could be.
(I was thinking about the 450bn - my mistake.)
Please stop calling them centrist as they are not. They are right wing.
Calling Blairites "centrists" distinguishes them from old school right-wingers of say the Dennis Healey mould.
For all their differences until New Labour came along left and right within the Labour had broadly the same goals, just different paths and strategies to achieve them.
That changed with the arrival of New Labour, a development which Thatcher claimed was her greatest achievement. New Labour's "Third Way" was a combination of right-wing thatcherite economics but which unlike the Tories would allegedly benefit ordinary working people.
Describing them as centrists is both a fair description and what they like to call themselves so I see no reason for not doing so. I can only assume that you are uncomfortable with the term TJ because as a slightly pink vaguely leftie individual you see the "centre ground" as something to aspire to 😉
Having said all this can you imagine if Sunak won
Over the last few days it’s been rumoured that it’s closer than we think, albeit Sunak pretty much admitted defeat yesterday by agree that “…yes, he would support the new government”.
TJ's problem is that he defines political identity by the rules of 50 years ago. Thereby ignoring the fact that politics is all relative & that if the political population as a whole has moved to the right, then by definition what is now the centre has moved in the same direction.
the political population as a whole has moved to the right
Depends on whether you mean Scotland, England, or the UK (or even Europe).
The debate on this thread is clearly in relation to Westminster.
Someone has said TJ’s “problem” is that he views political identity in an out of date way… I think that mostly applies to views in England, which isn’t where he lives. Not much sign of Scotland, or the MPs they return to Westminster, following England down the same increasingly right wing path. How many Scottish MPs can Truss rely on for support…?
political population as a whole has moved to the right
I don't think that is true, they are often however nudged into more rightwing voting by lies, misinformation, fearmongering and character assassination. When you actually poll the individual policies of what is normally considered left and right, leftwing policies are hugely popular, even with lifelong tory voters.
Also a considerable percentage of the population are ignored and disenfranchised by the current political landscape, they have not swung to the right, they are just cast aside.
The majority of this country only think about the now. If she does that and calls an election we’ll have four more years of Conservatives in power. They’ve created a perfect storm by getting everyone to within a few days panic and riots, so that she fixes it this winter and becomes the heroine of the nation for six months at least.
Yep, that is what I think will happen. Do something to save the nation, get a quick election in on the back of that and then have a 'mandate' to do whatever shit you can for the next 4 years, including removing any help given this winter on energy crisis for next years winter.
No
The point is labour occupy roughly the centre ground so the right wing of labour are right wingers not centrist
Anyone who prefers to have a tory government than a left of centre labour one is a rightwinger
Anyone who prefers to do deals with the tories than the SNP is a right winger
The problem is these right wingers in labour have simply forgotten who the enemy is.
Ian Murray is a right winger. Anas Sarwar is a right winger.etc etc. All those who breifed against Corbyn are right wingets
By calling them centrist you are allowing them to get away with it.
Yes the scots context is important to me and more obvious but just because the labour party has become centrist does not actually change definitions.
Many of these so called centerists are to the right of folk like Healy
including removing any help given this winter on energy crisis for next years winter.
You cannot have millions of households, businesses, hospitals, schools, scout huts, etc, unable to pay their energy bills even if you have won a general election and have supposedly about four years before the next.
https://twitter.com/meadwaj/status/1566673754121543681?s=20&t=y0NUtbaTveD372dt_B70IQ
Wow. Interesting.
By calling them centrist you are allowing them to get away with it.
I think it stops them being called left-wing economically.
And I think Centrist perhaps excludes them being right-wing from a cultural and social perspective. It's the oppoiste of the red wall voters.
You cannot have millions of households, businesses, hospitals, schools, scout huts, etc, unable to pay their energy bills even if you have won a general election and have supposedly about four years before the next.
Nope, but can certainly help a lot less after winning an election combined with having more time to come up with approaches that satisfy tory voters and donors.
Same price controls the EU are talking about? Even proposing it had helped keep gas prices subdued, a bit… ‘till the latest Nord Stream 1 sent them skywards again. The only problem is that capping wholesale prices could result in reduced production/supply and energy blackouts, unless the government essentially takes control of production.
Anyone who prefers to have a tory government than a left of centre labour one is a rightwinger
Anyone who uses the term 'left of centre" is imo embarrassed to call themselves left wing and therefore probably right wing.
There is no reason to say left of centre, if the position is on the left it isn't in the centre.
If we are going to get fussy about terminology.
These folk are right wing from a cultural and social perspective
Anti immigrant etc etc
Wow. Interesting.
I’ll simply repeat what I’ve said in the past. Liz Truss is no rightwing ideologue.
Pk. Sorry for the hijack.
I made my point. Im just disappointed that so called lefties on here dont recognise the fact that the modern labour party has a strong right wing tendency and that there is an ongoing attempt to turn it into a right of centre party as it became under blair
Do you really think labour mps cheering tory wins at a ge is acceptable
Ernie
My personal political position is way to the left of labour
There is no reason to say left of centre
There is if you fail the purity test. I’m left wing. That I don’t think that means that capitalism must be destroyed results in plenty of people saying I’m not left wing. People end up using the “left of centre” tag to try and push for a consensus on the left, without getting into the “you’re not left wing enough” debate. Control of our political system has been handed to the right wingers on a plate… if that’s to be countered, a coalition of those left of centre (no matter how far or not they are to the left) is badly needed.
so called lefties on here dont recognise the fact that the modern labour party has a strong right wing tendency
Are you sure about that?
so called lefties on here dont recognise the fact that the modern labour party has a strong right wing tendency
I thought it was all we ever talked about? 😀
Unless of course you’re talking about the likes of binners, who we all know is an embarrassed Liberal Democrat.
If Truss does announce a price cap per unit of energy what's to stop the companies just refusing to sell? Can you imagine the fallout if her first action turns the country off?!
Having said all this can you imagine if Sunak won! LMFAO.
Sunak was never going to win. As if the porkletariat and the Tunbridge Wells pensioners that make up the Tory Party membership were ever in danger of voting for someone who looks a bit foreign.
If Truss does announce a price cap per unit of energy what’s to stop the companies just refusing to sell?
Contractual obligation? Hasn't setting a price cap always been ultimately the right of the government?
If Truss does announce a price cap per unit of energy what’s to stop the companies just refusing to sell? Can you imagine the fallout if her first action turns the country off?!
Like the Ofgem price cap presumably it would still be set at a profitable level. So it would still pay centrica et.al. to produce gas, just not at the inflated market rate. The only reason to shut off gas would be if you had wells that were excessively expensive to run, or had very low reserves so there was an economic case to save them for the higher price returning (which it might not, logically you'd have to keep the cap untill prices fell below it anyway).
If you added the votes up of Labour/ Lib Dems/ Greens/ SNP/ Plaid you'd beat the Tories at every election. We are not a RW country we have a political system weighted in favour of the right in every way possible.
You saw how scared the Tories were of UKIP splitting their vote but the left parties DGAF.
Sunak was never going to win. As if the porkletariat and the Tunbridge Wells pensioners that make up the Tory Party membership were ever in danger of voting for someone who looks a bit foreign.
For sure - it's always looked like that to me. Everything you said plus underestimation of Truss from the HIGNFY types.
But politics can throw up surprises can't it!
These folk are right wing from a cultural and social perspective
Anti immigrant etc etc
Not the Centrists I'm talking about.
Unless of course you’re talking about the likes of binners, who we all know is an embarrassed Liberal Democrat
Ooof - Lol. There is no other type of Lib-Dem! 😉
This thread comes to a halt in moments!
underestimation of Truss
No one overestimated the Conservative membership... they were always going to back her when given the choice of her or Sunak. It was a done deal once the MPs let her through to the final two. There is no "underestimation" of Truss as regards her winning the leadership run off with members... just a very low expectation of her as PM... I strongly suspect she'll live up to those low expectations now she's leader [well, will be in about 2 mins time].
Nope, but can certainly help a lot less after winning an election combined with having more time to come up with approaches that satisfy tory voters and donors.
There will be a lot of "middle class" Tory voters who are going to be massively affected by the energy crisis.
If you earn £70k a year and have £1500 mortgage, that leaves £2500 for everything else. If suddenly your energy bills are £500 a month then that is going to hurt.
Not to mention all the small business owners who are facing collapse over the winter.
The country is going to have 40 million socialists by January.
The country is going to have 40 million socialists by January.
This.
Once you become part of the group that is struggling - everyone's a socialist.
Not what history shows us, but I hope you're right.
Tory Party membership were ever in danger of voting for someone who looks a bit foreign.
https://www.ft.com/content/3ccc8cbc-beb1-4809-9b97-f7a7dbce8608
Is Rishi Sunak’s looming defeat in the Conservative leadership election because he’s not white?
I think the answer to this is “well, it’s complicated”. On the one hand, well, just look at this Opinium poll of Conservative members from January:
As you can see, had the Conservative leadership election taken place in January 2022, Rishi Sunak would have won it and won it comfortably. Now, here is an Opinium poll for the Observer from this month:
The picture from January 2022 has almost exactly reversed: Rishi Sunak has gone from defeating Liz Truss by 28 points to losing by a near-identical margin. I don’t think we can easily claim that January’s polls were wrong but August’s are right, and it stretches credulity well past breaking point to believe that Conservative members only noticed that Sunak was British-Indian in February of this year.
Obviously you need to read the FT link to see the graphs which the article is referring to.
Stringing it out worse than masterchef