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I think that when we have the mass protest on the scale of the poll tax riots, small businesses going bankrupt left, right and centre, people unable to heat their homes in the winter, massive inflation, strikes and a rise in unemployment, then they will no choice but to call an election.
Hmm, but then they'd be bound to loose, so my opinion is 'not'. And they'd not vote with a motion of no confidence either which is the only way the opposition can force one AFAIK so it's got to be REALLY quick, or not at all. My view is that the bounce the Guardian described won't be anything like as positive for Truss, given that we'll have already had the new price cap figures so that won't come to pass either.
(all speculation mind, I have absolutely no actual knowledge)
Hmm, but then they’d be bound to loose, so my opinion is ‘not’.
If the scenario gobuchul describes comes to pass - and it will if no action is taken on energy prices very quickly - then they won't be able to resist the tsunami of anger. They could try, but that will lead to a much darker place. No government anywhere has survived an economic collapse on scale of what is approaching.
Oh, am I ‘cancelling’ you, comrade?
Do you not think you’re being a tad melodramatic there?
Then simply ignore comments about Starmer! (But I'd listen up if I were you as I've said before Starmer's success is linked to the Tories failure.)
If the scenario gobuchul describes comes to pass – and it will if no action is taken on energy prices very quickly – then they won’t be able to resist the tsunami of anger.
There is absolutely no indication that anything meaningful is going to be done. This is the most right wing government this country has ever had.
The "market" must be left to do it's thing.
One post about his lordship and the claws are out.
It's not though, is it? Ernie shoehorn's Starmer in to virtually every post. He's obsessed!
Maybe we should take it in turns to post on the Starmer thread to keep you lot occupied?
the terrorist allotment-dweller
There are Daily Mail columnists who use more reasonable and rational language than you binners.
I have no idea whether Jeremy Corbyn has an allotment or not but how terribly gammony/redneck of you to think that accusing someone of having an allotment is some kind of insult. Which presumably is why you always tediously mention allotments every time you want to get into a rant about Corbyn.
My mum had an allotment for a while. During that time she was radicalised on Tik Tok*, joined ISIS and travelled to Syria to learn how to make IED's.
Coincidence?
Luckily we managed to distract her from violent Jihad by getting her to join the Ramblers instead, but the point still stands
*Radicalised on Tik Tok also recorded a session for Marc Riley on 6 music last week, still available on BBC Sounds
Ernie shoehorn’s Starmer in to virtually every post.
Virtually every post, without failure.
My mum had an allotment for a while
Is that your problem? Did you feel that your mum was neglecting you when she was attending her allotment - have you mentioned this to your therapist?
Some of the greatest Tory haters on stw appear, according to their own admission, to have committed Tory parents, I wonder if there is a pattern here which would interest psychotherapists?
Is you saying my mum is a Tory Jihadist*?
*Tory Jihadist also recorded a session for Marc Riley on 6 music last week, still available on BBC Sounds
It’s not though, is it? Ernie shoehorn’s Starmer in to virtually every post. He’s obsessed!
Maybe we should take it in turns to post on the Starmer thread to keep you lot occupied?
He's not obsessed he makes strong points by connecting the dots, referencing his logic. Very few posters do this. And his material isn't just an ongoing rant - which is extremely tedious but fine if someone wants to operate like that.
It's truly ridiculous to leave Starmer out a thread of this magnitude completely.
Is you saying my mum is a Tory Jihadist*?
I have no idea if your mum is a Tory but I can understand your pain if you felt that she was ignoring you whilst she spent hours tending to her allotment.
Please accept a virtual hug from me. And remember that crying is a good way to release pent up anger and frustration 💡
Crying on the Allotment is actually the working title for Tory Jihadists first album, due for release early December
Did she take you there?
Having a good cry on someone's shoulder would be better.
then they will no choice but to call an election.
Nah. They will brazen it out and use dead otter / cyclist number plates / lockdown party scandal / some distraction and hope no one notices.
Nah. They will brazen it out and use dead otter / cyclist number plates / lockdown party scandal / some distraction and hope no one notices.
The scale of the shit storm that is coming our way, will mean any dead cat scenario will simply be not enough.
Nah. They will brazen it out and use dead otter / cyclist number plates / lockdown party scandal / some distraction and hope no one notices.
Yeah, that and simple denial and lies. We've all seen over the last couple of year that they have no shame or inclination to morally do the right thing.
will mean any dead cat scenario will simply be not enough.
Implies that there is a strategy* beyond headlines in tomorrow morning's papers.
*Even if it's just one of deflection. I don't think this iteration of the Tories are capable of doing even that meagre task
Article in the FT yesterday on Young Conservatives. They featured a member who is 17. How can it be right to decide on the PM of the country without having the right to vote in a general election? To be fair, they probably don't have many adolescent voting members, but it seems odd.
Because they are voting for the leader of the party of which they are member.
The country voted the party in, not the individual leader, along whatever their party rules happen to be.
The Queen decides - and she's 96!
17 year old Tory boy decides who the party leader is, the same as in other political parties.
To be fair I prefer that to a directly universally elected leader.
I too am of the opinion that there won't be a snap election whoever wins and that they will be hamstrung by that decision. Whilst I;m sure Laboutr and Lib Dems will have been working on their manifest I doubt the same will be true of the tories given everything that has been going on, so realistically there couldn't be one until the end of October at the earlies and if your voters are elderly the last thing you ant is a winter election if you can avoid it. Waiting until early next year just piles on more and more pressure as fuel prices, inflation and no doubt strikes will be in full effect by then. All the time whoever wins will be getting beaten up by the "you don't have a mandate" question. I doubt the tory civil was will end either and we are the ones who will end up the losers!
To be fair, they probably don’t have many adolescent voting members, but it seems odd.
Supposed 1% are overseas members who may or may not have the right to vote in UK elections either.
Because they are voting for the leader of the party of which they are member.
I am familiar with the rules and universal adult suffrage, I just think that they should also should apply to political parties. A country has decided that adults are eligible to vote in a general election. Plenty of institutions have the same rules for voting vs. no voting membership.
One concern is in the coming custardfluck and in the knowledge of losing the next election, they'll pile in with a scorched earth radical privatisation policy shock doctrine stylee that leaves the next government politically hamstrung and with all the ordure to clear up. Labour doesn't have a very strong record of reversing Tory policies.
they’ll pile in with a scorched earth radical privatisation policy shock doctrine stylee
I wouldn't be surprised if they go for flat rate taxes and a massive downsizing of the state. It would fit with Truss's anti-tax agenda and is the wet dream of the libertarian right.
I also think they will use the cover of the huge newspaper headlines on energy / I can't afford to eat / this business went bust today to also enact sell-offs, privatisations, reduction in environmental controls, ban protest, reduce workers rights etc
Oh, wait, we are already there. 🙁
OK, i bet they do more.
A key priority would be to get the constituency restructuring through since thats worth a few extra seats for the tories.
Its quite interesting the fights that this administration is presently picking. As well as the obvious ones like Mick Lynch I was interested to see the BMA referred to as 'a lefty militant organisation' by their attack dogs in the Mail, then today there's this...
https://twitter.com/nmbarraclough/status/1561842835669884929?s=20&t=iNROutyF66UvCb3Ik1L2Mg
In the past you'd have assumed that doctors and lawyers would have formed the bedrock of Tory support. Its interesting to see that they are now also being lumped in as 'Enemies of the People'
The present Brexit English Nationalist Tory party now no longer represents the interests of anyone other than global capital, oligarchs, non-doms and tax-dodgers
I suppose that in that context, the difference between Truss or Sunak or any of the rest of them is fairly academic.
I am familiar with the rules and universal adult suffrage, I just think that they should also should apply to political parties.
It would require serious interference by the state into the affairs of political parties for rules to be enforced like that.
As it is the state dictates how trade union leaders are chosen despite the fact that it is clearly none of anyone's business other than members of the trade union itself how their leader is chosen.
Let us hope that political parties retain the freedom to organise themselves as they please.
When Gordon Brown was chosen as Labour leader it wasn't put to a vote at all, not even 17 year olds were asked. Gordon Brown was the only candidate who received sufficient nominations. Such was the vibrant democracy within New Labour.
I swear it's binners who always brings up he who shall not be named.
The present Brexit English Nationalist Tory party now no longer represents the interests of anyone other than global capital, oligarchs, non-doms and tax-dodgers
But pretends to be on the side of the down trodden working man. Isn't that why they are reframing the middle class as the elites?
I swear it’s binners who always brings up he who shall not be named
You’re free to think whatever you like, swearing or otherwise. Unfortunately the actual evidence proves otherwise. It’s not difficult to check.
I swear it’s binners who always brings up he who shall not be named.
Who Starmer? I think that's a bit unfair, binners for very obvious reasons hates talking about Starmer and only does so if he feels forced to.
On the other hand binners absolutely loves to talk about Corbyn and does so at every opportunity. He is so obsessed by Corbyn that he feels it is still necessary to pour insults and ridicule on him, such as magic grandad and bearded allotment-dweller, despite the fact that he hasn't been leader for a couple of years.
I guess binners feels that it helps to distract attention away from the current leader which he so enthusiastically supported but no one quite knows whether he still does.
Who would have thought that binners could be so reticent and coy about expressing his personal opinion of a senior politician, eh?
Gordon Brown was the only candidate who received sufficient nominations. Such was the vibrant democracy within New Labour.
It's still democratic if everyone agrees. It's only not democratic if people aren't given the opportunity to disagree.
"When Gordon Brown was chosen as Labour leader it wasn’t put to a vote at all, not even 17 year olds were asked. Gordon Brown was the only candidate who received sufficient nominations. Such was the vibrant democracy within New Labour."
Oh dear, you don't really understand democracy do you ernie. Those Labour MP's who nominated Gordon Brown had won their seats in a general election and in that respect their votes were a representation of the entire electorate, not just Labour voters or paid up party members.
100 percent of the electorate had a say in giving those politicians the right to act in the name of the country as opposed to 0.3 percent with the current shower.
The irony is that you'd be happy to have a similarly tiny portion of the electorate (Labour Party members) do the same thing.
I've said it before.... it's called the minority effect.
Oh dear, you don’t really understand democracy do you ernie.
Thank you for your patronising and condescending remark Inkster. Perhaps I don't understand democracy as well as you obviously do however if you reread carefully what I wrote you will notice that I was not attacking the actual process of choosing the Labour leader.
My comment concerning "vibrant democracy" was in reference to the culture which existed under New Labour, a culture which was noted for its exceptional levels of Downing Street control freekery and insistence that MPs be "on message".
The Labour Party has always claimed to be a 'broad church' which is a perfectly reasonable assessment, it embraces a whole multitude of opinions sharing common goals and aiming to achieve complex solutions.
You would expect therefore a corresponding variety of ideas and personalities to compete when a leadership position becomes vacant, rather than a Stalinist style coronation.
Edit: Or to put it in simple terms I was attacking the fact that there was only one candidate - not the process.
Whereas now we're going to be lead by someone that no-one wnats in power, and is incapable of leading the country. Democracy is great!
Re snap election- there probably will be a bounce, of sorts, since there's a lot of anti-johnston feeling and Truss hasn't yet had a chance to do anything wrong. She can promise the world and run on that without having ever done a thing to make any of the promises true. That's a very narrow window, though.
It comes down entirely to whether the toxicity of johnston outweighs his lingering popularity, and whether Truss having done absolutely nothing is a better selling point than Truss having tried to do anything. Depressing as **** tbh.
ernielynch
Free MemberWhen Gordon Brown was chosen as Labour leader it wasn’t put to a vote at all, not even 17 year olds were asked.
Yes but it isn't comparable, of course. Brown was a continuation candidate and had always been seen as the heir. He'd been central to the policymaking and ran on and implemented much the same policy. Meanwhile both Sunak and Truss are running on "throw it all away" after the old PM quit in disgrace.
I don't see a Truss bounce lasting long at all.
There's about to be a lot of anger floating around needing somewhere to land and it'll be straight onto her dinner plate in no time at all.
I just have it down these days literally anything is on the cards.
We can reconvene in a few weeks and pick the bones of it then!
In fact where's effing Farage? Got to keep an eye on that pig swiller.
He's still shilling investment "advice" as far as I can tell. Looks like the RT money has dried up for now.
Yes but it isn’t comparable, of course.
And no one was making the comparison, of course.
In fact I was actually doing the complete opposite - I was pointing out that different political parties have very different ways of choosing their leaders. I pointed out that in some cases there wasn't even a vote.
The point I was making was that it is for individual political parties to decide for themselves how they choose their leaders, not for the state to interfere and lay down rules such as a minimum age.
In fact where’s effing Farage?
Busy on talk radio isn't he?
Why are you asking - waiting for a charismatic leader during a time of crises to step forward and offer hope?
One people. One country. One Leader!
I'm quite liking the idea of a bouncing Liz truss.
I imagine it being something like Tigger from Winnine the Pooh whilst shouting PORK MARKETS.
None of truss, sunak, starmer or farage have a toothbrush moustache but one of them definitely likes being seen in tanks, in planes and on ships.
The last 3 people to bring up Corbyn were Trail Monkey, thisisnotaspoon and StumpyJon. StumpyJons mention is the one that started the 5 page rantathon.
Not you @binners but equally not who you always claim it to be.
I’m quite liking the idea of a bouncing Liz truss.
Matron!
'Criminal barristers in England and Wales vote to go on all-out strike'
The bbc getting down and dirty
None of truss, sunak, starmer or farage have a toothbrush moustache
Well not since Farage cunningly attempted to hide his behind a microphone and almost got away with it:
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/01/ukip-nigel-farage-hitler-moustache_n_4021180.html
Since then he has gone for the more moderate look and shaved it. Although his hair does occasionally fall across the right side of his forehead.
https://www.ft.com/content/3ccc8cbc-beb1-4809-9b97-f7a7dbce8608
This imo is a really excellent piece in today's FT discussing why Sunak is currently doing badly in the Tory leadership contest.
It's quite short but well worth a read for anyone who doesn't have an issue with the FT paywall.
"You would expect therefore a corresponding variety of ideas and personalities to compete when a leadership position becomes vacant, rather than a Stalinist style coronation."
To be fair, everyone knew that Blair was going to hand over to Brown mid-term when they voted Blair in for his third term.
Brown was 'priced in', so Labour's offer to the electorate was unambiguous.
Labour didn't go to the electorate saying 'Tony's going to quit half way through and the Labour Party will then squabble amongst themselves before deciding who should become PM'.
Brown was absolutely key to Blair winning that last election. They campaigned as a leadership team.
Why are we talking about this?
Apparently 12ft.io allows you to bypass any paywall.
I don't know anything about a 12ft ladder but I do know that the FT has a pretty relaxed paywall which can be easily circumvented.
Anyway the article is well worth reading imo, as FT articles so often are. Although it does give Keir Starmer's poor "stock at Westminster" as one of the reasons for Sunak's struggling leadership campaign. So it is probably best if binners, and anyone else who doesn't like Starmer to be shoehorned into a political analysis, doesn't read it.
Busy on talk radio isn’t he?
Why are you asking – waiting for a charismatic leader during a time of crises to step forward and offer hope
Well he's a bit of an opportunist!
Yes he's on GB News holding beer.
Are we there yet 🙂
Another day another strike/disaster as the country chugs along on autopilot.
Another day of getting away with it.
Although it does give Keir Starmer’s poor “stock at Westminster” as one of the reasons for Sunak’s struggling leadership campaign
I don't think I've ever seen another time when the Leader of the Opposition gets as much blame for the current situation of the country as well as the actual Govt of 12 years
Brown was absolutely key to Blair winning that last election. They campaigned as a leadership team.
Why are we talking about this?
I think it’s because your brains are struggling with current reality so you have to go back to to stuff which brings back a reality equilibrium 🙂
I can’t see history being good with the ‘grifter’ years when U.K. politics was hijacked and the removal of citizens rights began until the late 2050’s when the 100ft concrete walls that were erected around England(to protect freedom of movement)were finally brought down.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen another time when the Leader of the Opposition gets as much blame for the current situation of the country as well as the actual Govt of 12 years
Yep it’s odd but I think it’s more out of frustration, I think he’s another liz or Sunak lined up for a nice job but not really got the va va voom needed.
Time to clear the decks and get some young fresh blood in not the people who’ve been waiting in the wings for the last decade.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen another time when the Leader of the Opposition gets as much blame for the current situation of the country as well as the actual Govt of 12 years
And the gullible will lap it up courtesy of the client media.
Another day another strike/disaster as the country chugs along on autopilot.
It’s like we are ambivalent to our own downfall.
it’s worth googling and reading about the Barbados DLP, whom after 10 years of raping the country and feeding thier own retirement plans and capatilist friends - and subsequent underinvestment in the country’s infrastructure - with tax payers money (sound familiar?) have recently lost a second election with 0 votes. The people there were very angry about the situation and voted accordingly. You have to dig a bit, Barbados is a proud island and don’t like their dirty laundry shown in public.
Mind you, they don’t have blue rinse Home County Dwellers to deal with.
It’s like we are ambivalent to our own downfall.
I don't think 'we' are ambivalent about it. I think anyone with anything between their ears is deeply concerned. Its just that the people who are allegedly running the country aren't really ambivalent about it either. They just don't care. At worst, they'll be just fine. At best, they'll find a way to exploit and monetise it with a bit of profiteering
Rishi is now on Radio 4. Let's see if he's even going to acknowledge there's a problem in these Sunlit Uplands?
EDIT: No. He's going to cut VAT on fuel and that's it. Job jobbed! Everything should be peachy creamy then. Move along now. Nothing to see here
He's busy defending 'his record' as chancellor, without making any link with the present situation. It'll be ironic if the billions (he begrudgingly) spent on propping up companies during covid is then completely wasted as they all now go bust because they can't afford their heating bills.
Its clear he intends to do next to nothing about the present crisis, which I suppose is one up on Liz, who intends to do absolutely nothing
You know full well he can't, the votes aren't in yet, whether they believe it or not, both candidates still have to peddle the Brexit-is-so-totes-mazeballs act.
e.g.
"Are these queues at Dover because of Brexit?"
"No."
Personally, I now have absolutely no idea what either candidate really intends to do, because every piece of flannel and guff they are spouting is aimed squarely at the Surrey Pensioners Make Britain Great Again Political Club Tory Members.
aimed squarely at the
Surrey Pensioners Make Britain Great Again Political ClubTory Members.
The thing I don't get though, is aren't pensioners as equally scared about how they're going to pay their fuel bill as the rest of us? I mean even you're sitting on a pile of house in Eastbourne or Bournemouth, if it going to cost £5000 to heat it and put the lights on..?
The thing I don’t get though, is aren’t pensioners as equally scared about how they’re going to pay their fuel bill as the rest of us? I mean even you’re sitting on a pile of house in Eastbourne or Bournemouth, if it going to cost £5000 to heat it and put the lights on..?
Step 1: Win the war on woke!
Step 2: TBC
Step 3: Live comfortably in a (white) Christian country for the rest of our days!
Its a matter of principle.
Better to die of hypothermia than endorse 'handouts to scroungers'
Many pensioners were alive during the war (just) and even the 50's and 60's were not great for having a heated house if you were poor. Even in the 70's when I was a kid our house was cold in winter (victorian semi with a couple of storage heaters and no heating in bedrooms)
Didn't do me much good though as I now feel cold if sitting in a house that is below 21 degrees.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen another time when the Leader of the Opposition gets as much blame for the current situation of the country as well as the actual Govt of 12 years
Probably because he is consistently presented with open goals like this..........
Rishi is now on Radio 4..........He’s going to cut VAT on fuel and that’s it. Job jobbed!
........ and does nothing about it.
I'd expect anyone remote to the left to be screaming that cuts in tax and VAT merely offer more austerity in order to maintain the profit levels of the big corporations.
He's just too scared of offending those very corporations to actually offer anything in the way of effective opposition.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen another time when the Leader of the Opposition gets as much blame for the current situation of the country as well as the actual Govt of 12 years
Isn't strange how perceptions vary between individuals?
For me it is the completed opposite, I can't recall a leader of the Opposition offering so little "opposition" offering so little alternative and receiving so little blame.
The profound affect that an Opposition leader can have on the fortunes of a government is indisputable. A good example would be Margaret Thatcher although a much more recent example would be last week - after a long period of small single digit leads the Opposition poll lead suddenly jumped to impressive double digit leads as a direct result of the Opposition leader offering a proposal to help alleviate the current cost of living crises.
Not only did it cause public support for the government to tumble but it also resulted in one senior cabinet minister to panic and offer some hairbrained counter-proposal involving GPs becoming the arbitrators of non-medical financial issues.
And as the FT piece which the comment refers to points out the aptitude of the leader of the Opposition can even have a small bearing on the outcome of a leadership contest within the ruling government party.
Btw I no idea what this means: " as well as the actual Govt of 12 years". We haven't had the same government for the last 12 years and I not aware of the current Opposition leader being blamed for the situation during the time of the coalition government or the government of Theresa May. Can you clarify?
The thing I don’t get though, is aren’t pensioners as equally scared about how they’re going to pay their fuel bill as the rest of us? I mean even you’re sitting on a pile of house in Eastbourne or Bournemouth, if it going to cost £5000 to heat it and put the lights on..?
There are pensioners and pensioners.
There's pensioners that retired on final salary pensions in a pile of a house in Eastbourne.
And there's pensioners s struggling to keep going on the state pension in a terraced house in Everton.
He’s just too scared of offending those very corporations to actually offer anything in the way of effective opposition.
McLibel Trail Especially the part about the ECHR. I don't think Starmer is an effective communicator, and hasn't found his voice in a way that many Labour supporters would've hoped. I don't think it's because he's scared particularly
Can you clarify?
The nuance that the government is dissolved every few years and a new government starts is just that, a nuance. It's definitely fair to say "the conservative government of the last 12 years is to blame for this shitshow" (I paraphrase).
Even in the 70’s when I was a kid our house was cold in winter (victorian semi with a couple of storage heaters and no heating in bedrooms)
Bleedin ell...... you had storage heaters!! How posh was that - they must have been brand new state of the art technology back then!
We had to do press-ups to keep warm.
There are pensioners and pensioners.
Sure, but anyone comparing the bills they've been paying and what coming over the hill...I can't imagine they're going to look at anything Truss or Sunak have said recently and be content, can you?
How any reasonably minded, literate person can support this right wing mess of a Tory party is beyond me.
"We must leave the ECHR because it prevents us doing what we want to do."
That alone should be enough for any "normal" human being to want anyone but them.
That's before the right to strike and protest stuff.
Three weeks later, Hitler issued a decree that banned collective bargaining and stated that a group of labour trustees, appointed by him, would "regulate labour contracts" and maintain "labour peace."[5] This decree effectively outlawed strikes, since workers could not oppose the decisions of the trustees
One People. One Leader. One Country.
Btw I no idea what this means:
actual Ignorance or just hyperbole?