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^this is the thing... it all has a knock on effect, take a cafe for example, if people eat out less you'll be taking less over the counter, and if you're paying a cook and a cashier/waiting staff, and you have to keep the lights and the fryers/ovens/coffee machine/beer pumps/chillers on... and your bills are going up...
I've seen it in spain off season, bar/restos sometimes just close for winter or only open in the evening, or even only evenings thur-sun, as you just can't afford to keep 'the lights on' if you're only getting a dribble of few casual diners/drinkers during the day. You'd be lucky to make enough to pay your staff, never mind rent, tax, gas, electric, stock, it just becomes a loss maker.
Neither leadership contender looks particularly popular
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1558729672187428865?t=rXbNasNdsXOQfIVKm_lyXA&s=19
Talking to mates last week who own what was/is a thriving business that they’ve worked their arses off to build.
The impact on household finances is only the tip of the iceberg. Capping household prices will prevent riots and mass non-payment. It won’t solve the greater problem of a massive recession with millions of jobs lost in the hospitality sector. Starmer needs to catch up quick. This is a 2008 or covid scale crisis and nothing less than the same scale of govt intervention is required.
They won't be capping them anywhere near low enough though and to be honest they can't without spending a lot. The people that provide domestic customers are not generally the ones making a killing at the moment, hence we had loads go bust last year. Each household needs at least a couple of grand, not a couple of hundred pounds.
If we'd invested seriously in renewables 20 years ago instead of spending money on the oil wars we might have been ok. We need to building wind farms everywhere, not just in the sea and massively subsidising domestic solar. With thus lot there's no chance.
Good job we have two such great candidates for the top job then.
We need to building wind farms everywhere, not just in the sea and massively subsidising domestic solar. With thus lot there’s no chance
They’re promising to put a stop to any more wind turbines as the racist pensioners in Surrey think they don’t look very nice
Welcome to the madhouse that is Brexitland
Could be a way to save some UK farmers following the "wonderful" post-Brexit deals, creating fields of "little Holland" wind turbines.
We're all ****ed.
This is way beyond 2008.
This is way beyond 2008.
Agree. Energy is at the core of all economic activity. Triple the price of it overnight without any other action and it’ll result in total collapse. Surely people in government understand this? We’re going to sleepwalk into economic armageddon at the altar of free market ideology. This will be the 3rd wholesale bailout required from governments in 14 years. The system doesn’t work.
2008 will be heaven.
This time it'll bite at a lower level people will cut back on stuff, so hospitality, decorating etc. These are the 1st things people cut back on. Then it'll feed up to bigger things, appliances cars etc
Where 2008 was top down thus is bottom up and as such it'll be very obvious.
Still… it’s nice to know that our glorious leader is enjoying his second holiday in 3 weeks, after making a brief appearance last week to assure us that Liz or Rishi will probably get round to doing something about it all at some point in October. Maybe.
https://twitter.com/parody_pm/status/1558551664440872960?s=21&t=IpwkZELtbBafkhjOjqGELQ
We need to building wind farms everywhere, not just in the sea and massively subsidising domestic solar.
This. This. This.
We’re getting the opposite.
We need to kick the Tories out.
IMO most folk still haven't worked out what is going on. Remember "Singapore on the Thames"?
We don't get from been a stable European social democracy to a free-market* wild west without a bit of 'turmoil' - this is what we're seeing, and IMO we've passed the tipping point.
* 'free market' actually means 'loaded market', to the advantage of those with assets/influence
Do you think Sunak would concede if he was offered his old job back ? (and the tories are supposed to be the politically astute party, three more weeks of this fiddling while Rome burns jesus ****ing wept what are they thinking ? )
i thought all candidates had agreed they wouldn't withdraw and it would go to the party vote.
it usually goes blah blah for the national good blah blah crisis blah do the honourable thing blah blah party unity blah blah heart blah blah patriotic duty blah blah
On a positive note, #GetBackToWorkYouFatPonce is now trending on Twitter and Boris is getting heckled with it while he's on holiday
https://twitter.com/davidblackfin/status/1558791682589708288?s=20&t=EnTx_TCeeiDBfoCG1zBi4g
massively subsidising domestic solar.
Personally I'd like to avoid domestic solar becoming the middle class gravy train that it did last time with FiT's etc (although I presume they'll look less generous now than they did 2 years ago).
I'd rather avoid "subsidy" altogether and just have the government set up a state owned operator and plough the money into larger scale projects, that way in principal at least, we all benefit. Not just those who directly own the roof of their home.
IMO most folk still haven’t worked out what is going on. Remember “Singapore on the Thames”?
We don’t get from been a stable European social democracy to a free-market* wild west without a bit of ‘turmoil’ – this is what we’re seeing, and IMO we’ve passed the tipping point.
* ‘free market’ actually means ‘loaded market’, to the advantage of those with assets/influence
Totally this. And Brexit showed them what a reactionary, insular, prejudiced society we are - on average (enough of an average to win). So long as they can identify an 'other' for people to hate they can apply that 'other' to whatever good thing they are trying to take away. You'll still get enough people to raise their stiffened bodies out of their freezing house, stumble down the road and vote for more of the same if you can convince them someone else is either coming over here to take it all* away from you or living it up on benefits by having eight kids.
*Even when all is actually nothing you can wrap it in a union jack and tell them it is at risk somehow.
Do you think Sunak would concede if he was offered his old job back ?
As Jam-bo says they all agreed not to do this since it got some backlash when May got elected.
Considering what they have been saying about each other and their policies it would be somewhat tricky to either offer a job or accept it.
Boris is getting heckled with it while he’s on holiday
If I see him I'm going to heckle him with eggs, tomatoes, bottles.... Generally anything I have to hand.
I see absolutely no sign that there is even a flicker of an acknowledgment of the gathering storm, let alone any ideas about how to deal with it
Well you can't take apart leftist ideals and moan about the market at the same time.
When you're banging on about being idealogically pure we're banging on about pragmatism to solve these issues.
I personally find it incredible that anyone is interested in the media frenzy of a candidate selection, that we have no choice of. I'm not giving any of it the time of day or oxygen. I'll only be interested unless we have an election to show what we think of this shower.
JeZ
If I see him I’m going to heckle him with eggs, tomatoes, bottles…. Generally anything I have to hand.
You'd need to be quick and have a good throwing arm - all of the above tend to bounce off of the exterior of a fridge.
I personally find it incredible that anyone is interested in the media frenzy of a candidate selection, that we have no choice of. I’m not giving any of it the time of day or oxygen
...apart from reading and commenting on this thread
just have the government set up a state owned operator and plough the money into larger scale projects
Let's not let pragmatism get in the way of ideology then. This approach won't work because.
A we need it now, big projects take years.
B have you seen how our government manages big projects, will cost us all in the end.
C the government doesn't invest, it might disproportionately benefit the middle class but why shouldn't it, they will be the ones financing this, taking on maintenance costs etc.
D the whole point was to minimise impact, use existing roof space not create massive fields of panels, the Nimbys will have a field day.
E lots of micro generation makes the grid more resilient, better than big points of failure.
F should ultimately bring down everyone's bills, if the government is going to invest it should be in energy storage so the excess goes back into the grid. The less the grid relies on fossil fuel the cheaper everyone's bills become.
lots of micro generation makes the grid more resilient, better than big points of failure.
An important point.
Also, in terms of the physical impact, getting energy generation onto roofs across the suburbs makes perfect sense. Those roofs are already there. No space is lost. Also… these suburban homes are where all the cars will be charging very soon.
The less the grid relies on fossil fuel the cheaper everyone’s bills become.
This. This. This.
When was the last hydro storage site built to cope with peak demand on winter nights? Can they also double up as water storage sites for summer droughts? Joined up thinking. Big investments. Planning for climate change and unstable fuel markets. Positive outcomes for us all.
When was the last hydro storage site built to cope with peak demand on winter nights? Can they also double up as water storage sites for summer droughts? Joined up thinking. Big investments. Planning for climate change and unstable fuel markets. Positive outcomes for us all.
Hydro is now considered a no-no.
Regards the hydro storage, didn't they only build one?
We need modern nuclear and tidal.
Also, offshore wind is getting very expensive again, the cost of construction, is linked to the oil price.
Regards the hydro storage, didn’t they only build one?
They are rather expensive and limited as to where they can be built. One in Wales and a couple in Scotland.
There are some other interesting technologies coming out eg using sand as an energy store.
Hydro is now considered a no-no.
Large scale hydro is, small scale is fine.
Regards the hydro storage, didn’t they only build one?
Quite a few actually; Dinorwig, Ffestiniog, Cruachan, Foyers and they began work to upgrade Sloy to pumped storage last year.
Kielder is a hydro reservoir which is perhaps closer to the original question. Its actually a good thing to add to a reservoir since you already have the big infrastructure in place so may as well get some free energy out of it for your trouble.
A we need it now, big projects take years.
B have you seen how our government manages big projects, will cost us all in the end.
C the government doesn’t invest, it might disproportionately benefit the middle class but why shouldn’t it, they will be the ones financing this, taking on maintenance costs etc.
D the whole point was to minimise impact, use existing roof space not create massive fields of panels, the Nimbys will have a field day.
E lots of micro generation makes the grid more resilient, better than big points of failure.
F should ultimately bring down everyone’s bills, if the government is going to invest it should be in energy storage so the excess goes back into the grid. The less the grid relies on fossil fuel the cheaper everyone’s bills become.
A/B - ahhh yes, I forgot this was a tory thread, lets give it to the private sector instead.
C - Too right, got to keep keep those middle classes middle classing while the poors struggle with their £4k heating bills. Or is this just a very overt show of champagne socialism? Seize the means of production, but only for distribution amongst the middle classes.
Kielder is a hydro reservoir which is perhaps closer to the original question. Its actually a good thing to add to a reservoir since you already have the big infrastructure in place so may as well get some free energy out of it for your trouble.
I suppose the problem is you need a very steep narrow valley for hydro to work (otherwise you need to waste money building a wide dam).
Whereas water supply needs the largest volume for the least cost.
Not necessarily exclusive of each other. But probably a lot harder to build for.
Also a lot of water supply reservoirs we pump into to fill them up. They're not necessarily being filled from massive rivers.
If your energy bills go up, just sell some shares, or put the rents up across your property portfolio. If your poor, wrap yourself in a flag and say "blitz spirit" over and over.
Its not that hard
Regards the hydro storage, didn’t they only build one?
There's a proposal to turn add pumped storage to the Hoover Dam / Lake Mead - shame the Colorado river is drying up.
There's a lot of potential in existing hydro schemes to convert to pump-storage. Basically if it dumps into freshwater and the extra volume is manageable you can probably pump it back up. I think this was done at Foyers, and what they're doing at Red John. When there's already dams in place it's a much smaller (and faster) deal.
There's also tons of work happening to add hydro generation where before it wasn't worth doing- whether because of tech, or because we could just burn orphans. Blackwater I think is a good example, it's already got hydro generation at the bottom which is basically historical but they're adding additional generation, since they have such massive drop and flow to work with, and Loch Eilde Mor.
Maybe the bigger advantage is just that it's smaller, faster projects- it's all very well having a list of perfect sites and schemes but not if they take 40 years. Same as nuclear in fact- we're pouring money into a hole at Hinkley that's going to be slow and late and not enough
If your energy bills go up, just sell some shares, or put the rents up across your property portfolio. If your poor, wrap yourself in a flag and say “blitz spirit” over and over.
Its not that hard
Yep a useful winter money saving tip is to to spend winter at your Caribbean/Italian/Spanish residence.
They really are playing you.
No doubt when the crunch really comes they’ll bung some MMT bailout money to their chums to subsidise the bills rather than renationalising and make some more promises about a nuclear power plant a year.
That crunch is not the poor freezing but the likelihood of them being put up against the wall.
That crunch is not the poor freezing but the likelihood of them being put up against the wall.
Indeed.
I was listening to some minister yesterday proud of the discount scheme they're introduced for Universal Credit claimers. No help with energy or food, but you could have a day at Twycross or Tusauds for £3 each.
No doubt when the crunch really comes they’ll bung some MMT bailout money to their chums to subsidise the bills rather than renationalising and make some more promises about a nuclear power plant a year.
From what I heard last night (Labour), this is the only plan in town for either of the two main parties.
"Paul Johnson, of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, an economics thinktank, has queried whether Labour’s plan would help greatly with inflation, saying the rate would go up again once the energy subsidy ended."
Keir Starmer has vowed that his party “wouldn’t let people pay a penny more” on their gas and electricity bills this winter
That is not entirely true, under Labour's plan people would pay 54% more this winter than they did last winter, and a unspecified extra amount next winter.
Edit: That should be contrasted with the fact that French consumers will be paying 4% more this winter. The question which should be asked is how has the French government made this possible? Apart from using EDF's UK profits to help subsidize French consumers.
I was listening to some minister yesterday proud of the discount scheme they’re introduced for Universal Credit claimers. No help with energy or food, but you could have a day at Twycross or Tusauds for £3 each.
I heard that. You forgot to mention the discounts on West End Shows.
It's absolutely gobsmacking just how utterly detached from reality these people are.
I see they're addressing the real issue of the day instead with sone good old-fashioned Brexity English Nationalism and threatening the devolved Scottish parliament
The question which should be asked is how has the French government made this possible?
By having lots of nuclear power stations?
By having lots of nuclear power stations?
It's a slightly ironic narrative given the disaster that was its part privatization and subsequence collapse in value.
By owning the means of production and distribution? Lots of ways for the government to step in and take the strain. I prefer their way.
By owning the means of production and distribution?
Does France have its own natural gas though? And yes I know I just cited nuclear power as a possible reason, but I'm assuming now that they use more electricity for heating etc because I don't think they have much gas or oil, but I guess they still need some gas.
No country is cut off from the world. In their case, the government is taking the financial hit on those gas prices (for home users).
I see they’re addressing the real issue of the day instead with sone good old-fashioned Brexity English Nationalism and threatening the devolved Scottish parliament
Ah, what price sovrunty?
It ain't gonna be too long until someone can actually put a price on that - and it won't be pretty. The usual suspects (left and right) will chip away at the figures in the calc until it shows a benefit, though - no matter how cock-eyed the maths.
But until then, blame the foreigners, blame Labour, blame the benefits claimants, blame everyone else except the ones selling the man in the street down the river.
With all the recent warm and settled weather I reckon that the number of attempted crossings of the channel will have increased - so that story will get its regular run out in the next week or so - just to keep the Brexity types frothing and thinking England is a great place to live.
"Attempted crossings up 100%* in first fortnight of August".
*From a handful to two handfuls.
Read recently (Reuters etc) that half of the French nuclear plants are current offline with maintenance issues, and they’re actually buying from us. Yet still, only 4% more. . .
French nuclear plants are suffering in the drought due to a lack of water for cooling.
Read recently (Reuters etc) that half of the French nuclear plants are current offline with maintenance issues, and they’re actually buying from us. Yet still, only 4% more. . .
It's the summer, so most electrical infrastructure will be having scheduled maintenance if it's needed.
Presumably they'll balance the book over the winter when they'll be exporting again at an even higher price.
Last figures I remember seeing they were importing ~2TWh whereas normally it's an export of ~20TWh. Makes for a good headline to say they're importing and subsidizing it, but things will be back to 'normal' sooner or later.
Don't forget that Boris is personally building a new nuclear power station every year, once he's finished all these new hospitals
they’re actually buying from us.
Define "us", considering how much of our production is owned by the French government via EDF.
MSP
Full MemberFrench nuclear plants are suffering in the drought due to a lack of water for cooling.
Wrong issue, and there have been waivers issued to help with that. Others offline with corrosion issues and the like
kelvin
Full Member
Define “us”, considering how much of our production is owned by the French government via EDF.
oh I'm sure the trading will be interesting, but its still having to come via the UK grid one way or another
We would be in the streets prostesting if energy prices increases were as high as the Uk. Simple as that. No government would survive.
We would be in the streets prostesting if energy prices increases were as high as the Uk. Simple as that. No government would survive.
Yes, but the French have known for some time how to balance national pride with pragmatism.
Meanwhile another populist supposed patriot is found to just have been lining his own pockets.
The Morrison thing is bonkers, he must have knonw he'd be rumbled, did he get paid mor for each job or was it purely about power?
The Morrison thing is bonkers, he must have knonw he’d be rumbled, did he get paid mor for each job or was it purely about power?
Portfolios included Finance & Health (after the first wave of covid), then 'Resources' later - presumably when he realised that could put some kind of brake on the other two.
If the conduct of the Tories English Nationalists re covid contracts is anything to go by, the reward wouldn't have been in the salary but the kickbacks from the VIP lane or whatever cover name they gave their scheme to line their mates' pockets.
Whatever, it will take a lot of time, resources and money to get to the very root of it - just like Trump is bargaining on.
Truss woos the workers of the North…
https://twitter.com/pippacrerar/status/1559591211442348034?s=21
What are voters expecting from Truss (compared to Starmer as PM)?
Starmer’s Labour holds double-digit leads over Truss’ Conservatives in being seen as more likely to improve public services (+13pts), reduce waiting times in the NHS (+12), reduce regional inequalities / levelling-up (+12) and offering Britain a fresh start (+10).
Doesn’t look good for Truss when it comes to “levelling-up” in the so called Red Wall seats.
Truss seems popular in Scotland
https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1559573765733990403?t=SvTdNbqRQWXkoOgEh-KkBQ&s=19
This guy on gmb was great
https://twitter.com/BylinesScotland/status/1559595739763953666?s=19
Truss and her leaked comments.
FFS what do these people expect out of an under-invested low wage economy?
Blood I think.
Working class will probably says she's right. All over LBC.
OT: Inflation up again. This after the US Inflation ticked down.
Working class will probably says she’s right. All over LBC.
The pensioners in the membership will lap it up
I love how the right toss China around when it suits them.
"We hate your threat to world stability but keep going because we like your cheap labour and work ethic."
A good article in todays Guardian as a timely reminder about what Brexit was really all about. To turn the UK into a tax haven for international capital, with a completely deregulated sweatshop attached to it, where a workforce stripped of rights can be readily exploited.
Both Truss and Sunak are evangelists about 'Freeports' but I doubt many people realise the full implications of what these actually are. It's all part of 'Taking Back Control' and handing it over to corporations.
Welcome to the freeport, where turbocapitalism tramples over British democracy
Truss: "The UK is a family that I will never, ever allow to break up". I wonder if that's what she said to her husband and kids after she had that affair? "You MAY NOT LEAVE ME". Mark Field should have tried it.
wonder if that’s what she said to her husband and kids after she had that affair? “You MAY NOT LEAVE ME”.
Or her affair with Kwertang or her latest one with a SPAD?
Is it injunctions keeping them off the front pages or are the tabloids just waiting until she's PM ?
Hope the 52% are still cock-a-hoop about their victory.
OT: Inflation up again. This after the US Inflation ticked down.
Hitting the least well off far harder than the people choosing our PM.
I get the feeling the tories are a bit rudderless just now and haven't a clue what they're trying to do, Liz Truss is just being left unchecked to say what is in her head, which has always been a very bad idea for the tories, the way she is going i honestly think we could see the unthinkable in 2024, which is a tory loss, as she's alienating almost everyone, and even starting to get into her own supporters, the tory voters are very loyal and pretty religious about the party, but Liz Truss has no charisma, ability and just spouts dangerous stuff, Boris was never the sharpest tool in the box, but he knew how to gain support and win people around, and he was more than happy to become leader and let others do the work, he just wanted to be PM.
If the tory party was an actual business you worked in, and you saw people act like Truss, Shapps, Zahawi, Patel, etc you'd be fearing your colleagues were having breakdowns and try and get them help, in the UK we've building a cabinet with them!
the way she is going i honestly think we could see the unthinkable in 2024, which is a tory loss,
Looking at recent history, both parties run out of talent eventually. (Not judging their policies, just the ability to win an election and how much they got done).
Thatcher -> Major -> a whole host of rubbish opposition
Blair -> Brown -> Ed Miliband and finally Corbyn.
Nick Clegg -> I can't even remember
Cameron -> May -> Boris -> Truss -> I'm expecting an election loss and Nadine Doris as leader of the opposition.
Worst case for Labor almost looks like a win in the election, but with Sunak as opposition because he seems to buck the trend by actually being competent.
Maybe you think it's talent but I think it is more ideological direction.
You can't keep extracting out of an economy and its resources and not putting back in no matter how competent.
However, lack of talent defintely follows because the solutions are complex and clueless MPs are the ones being supported.
Hitting the least well off far harder than the people choosing our PM.
Trickle down - the gift that keeps on giving.
Maybe you think it’s talent but I think is more ideological direction.
I'm less and less convinced that economic policy is what differentiates them anyway. I can't see this going any other way than "sorry there's no money left" whatever color the tie is in a couple of years time.
Maybe you think it’s talent but I think it is more ideological direction.
Doubt it, i just think the tories are completely inept, at a time when the UK is suffering its worst crisis in a generation, you have Truss soundbites every day, such as 'profit are not evil' at a time when energy firms, supermarkets, etc are recording record profits quarter on quarter, in a successful economy you can get away with that, if the people are happy, they don't really care, same with her latest soundbite about the UK workers needing more graft, said by a woman who hasn't had a days graft in her life, even worse, she's linked that whole thing to London being the example and the rest of the country being lazy, bad enough she has been alienating Scotland and Wales, not it's the rest of England outside of London.
She also honestly believes that just offering tax cuts will win everyone over, the reality is that as nice as tax cuts are, they are useless if you're not providing long term benefits within the country to support tax cuts, even a lot of the true blue support understand that, and aren't happy with this approach.
Freeports - loved by foreign business, criminals, corrupt politicians and gullible voters everywhere
Tax cuts?
Tax cuts only help people earning wages.
The whole country is going into a financial meltdown, with the only the people at the top not going to feel it.
The amount of small business that are likely to go under is huge. My own included.
with the only the people at the top not going to feel it
Bankers bonuses are through the roof this year, off the back of tax cuts the lifting of regulations in their sector. The government are looking after the people they think matter.
The whole country is going into a financial meltdown, with the only the people at the top not going to feel it.
The amount of small business that are likely to go under is huge. My own included.
Indeed. My mate who owns a couple of businesses in the hospitality sector (and who is seriously wondering if they're going to be viable for much longer) thinks this is all part of an agenda by this corporatist government and its paymasters.
They have absolutely zero appetite for helping small businesses as they genuinely don't care about small businesses going bump (as Brexit has proved). They know that the Corporate big boys that fund them have the capital and resources to weather this and that's all that matters. Then once out of the other side they'll be able to fully capitalise on the absence of small independent competition who no longer exist.
This Tory party represents the interests of a tiny minority, which shrinks yet further all the time
Why anyone votes for them - and thus against their own interests - absolutely mystifies me