[Closed] so - what's it like living in the south of England nowadays?

How are things here ? Well apparently all public sector workers are lazy shysters. But that's alright 'cause loads of them are going to lose their jobs, and the ones who don't, are going to get hammered.

And the undeserving poor, apparently deserve to be poor. So the government is going to make certain they get poorer. HTH

It's more the same now than it's ever been.

I've lived abroad for three years of my life and what I missed most was British culture; music, the BBC, pubs, beer and of course real weather.

Life is certainly tough at the moment, people have less cash than ever or they're holding onto it. If you do come back, come and have a look around the north, it's big, spacious and cheaper.

Life is certainly tough at the moment, people have less cash than ever or they're holding onto it. If you do come back, come and have a look around the north, it's big, spacious, cheaper and full of dour northeners.

We pay about 80p a litre for petrol and our house (worth about 120K in UK money) is a 3 bedroom, 2 lounge, 1 dinning room, 3 bathroom detached house with a pool, a pub, a double garage and a 30m drive - on a 2000m2 piece of land. Over here I'd be looking at a (small) flat for that money

Your house in S Africa contains a pub? That's impressive - I'm guessing the beer must be ordinary, but still - your own personal alehouse. What was the question again?

The south of England is as conservative as ever if not more so (politically and socially), which makes progress on many fronts difficult.

The impact of fuel prices depends on your dependence on a car of course. Manageable for most office workers unless you have a silly commute more of a problem for tradesmen as it's hard to pass on the cost everyone is squeezed a little bit more due to the general down turn.

Some sectors of the economy are doing well despite all of the doom mongering.

Houses are still expensive but this is a crowded island.

If your life style involves large amounts of credit you will be badly impacted if not your will be impacted but by no where near as much.

life here in the SW is ace.. almost no discernable difference to the last 30 odd years as far as I'm aware other than the summer has split into two halves and shifted slightly to the left..

prices have changed almost imperceptably unless you're the type to let yourself get bogged down by that kind of thing.. still poor.. still happy..

I tell you what your post had me thinking WTF does he want to move back here for, until I read the bit about cars getting windows smashed, razor wire and armed response.
I worry needlessly if I've left the shed door unlocked or a window open.
My lifestyle isn't excessive, but I get by. I wouldn't trade that for worrying about whether I'm gonna get robbed every day.

Depends on how much money you make I'd say - as anywhere of course.

I find the South a bit busy but if you've only been away for 3 years then you won't notice much. Houses are cheaper than they were three years ago 🙂

Garry_Lager - Yes there's a pub in the house, or rather "in an extension off of the side of" the house. Full sized bar, furniture, dart board, fridges etc. Just for when people come round 🙂

bigyinn - that's the catch exactly 🙁 Great weather, good job, swimming pool parties and BBQ's, but might get "smash and grabbed" at the traffic lights . . . . bummer.

I'd be quite keen on the SW. I was born in Cornwall but that was when the tin mines were still open! I've spent time around Poole etc too - very nice area and I like the New Forest. The problem would be the occasional commute to see my son in Guildford when petrol is so dear.

cheers for all the advice though - I can't rely on sky news!

The problem would be the occasional commute to see my son in Guildford when petrol is so dear

Petrol's not that big of an issue to be honest, esp for the odd trip, if you are earning. House prices are more so.

Petrol's not that big of an issue to be honest, esp for the odd trip, if you are earning

That. Also I suspect you'll end up driving less that in SA so it won't be a big issue. House prices aren't falling round here either (Bristol)

We were thinking about the possibility of moving back to the SE so took a holiday there, with living there at the back of our minds.
I haven't lived in the UK for eight years or so and do find it quite different, sort of foreign to what I'm used to. Also at the risk of offending the people in the areas we visited, we found some people to be quite down trodden. Quite a few people we spoke to seemed to be in jobs they didn't really like but felt pressured to do. We live in a small village/town so some of the places we visited seemed overcrowded and busy, but not necessarily in a good way.
obviously there are lots of good things there too and we also met lots of people who were happy and friendly too.

For now we are staying where we are though.

'the south' is a pretty big and diverse area. i wouldn't live in the south east for any reason that i could think of. the south west is the number one region of the country that i would ( and do ) choose to live in. as for the bit in the middle - pretty uninspiring but there are worse places to be i guess.

It's crowded down here in the central south. My own personal measure of how crowded somewhere is is how often you use main beam on the road. Locally it's 'never'.

trailmonkey - I have lived in and around Worthing for the last 12 years (before the 3 away) so I'd gravitate here I guess - but further west does apeal to me. I actually loved the IOW when we went there the other year on holiday - but not sure if that's a very practical choice to actually live there. I lovely pace of life - but then I was on "holiday" which is very different to living somewhere.

I don't [i]need[/i] to be near London or anything like that.

i wouldn't live in the south east for any reason that i could think of

For me, the reason would be good work possibilities. Lots of companies doing lots of interesting things in my line of work - which is IT. Usually if you can get work outside that area it's really dull and usually not very well paid.

What income bracket are you in South Africa? If you are close to the better income bracket say 15K rand after tax there is no way you are going to afford a better life in the UK

Say bye bye to sunshine bye to gardener bye to maid and it does suck to do it yourself if you haven't done it for year, eating out so much more expensive holiday in B&B also so much more expensive.

Also important mortage? Are you mortagage free in RSA then it tops for RSA easily finacially. Though if you are quite deep into your mortgage Realize that 100K is not 100k interest in South Africa is a lot higher so for full mortage your repayment on 135K UK will be same as 100K in RSA on 20 years if longer even more if economy picks up and the prime rate goes up in RSA it will also become an even bigger difference.

Though the crime sucks it depends where you are in RSA. What keeps me away is to have to cycle in groups for safety stay away in so many places and IMO its only getting worse. Here in the Lakes i just sit my bum down in a field in RSA I first have to check the safety perimeter and keep pepper spray nearby though depends on the area.

Have lived in Stellenbosch and Durban temporarily, visited S-A many times and nearby Mozambique now temporary resident of UK(although more north then you.

Other item do you have any? Where do you wan't to see them grow up I personally wouldn't want to have a teenage daughter in the RSA of today and definitely not in the RSA of Julius Malema.

In short wanna be pampered pick RSA want freedom choose UK country side.

i wouldn't live in the south east for any reason that i could think of

For me, the reason would be good work possibilities. Lots of companies doing lots of interesting things in my line of work - which is IT. Usually if you can get work outside that area it's really dull and usually not very well paid.

That's a bit misleading. I work in IT and have generally worked for banks - nearly all of whom have IT centres oop norf and pay pretty damn well. Manchester and West Yorkshire have tons of financial services companies employing lots of IT people.

I could earn a bit more living in the south east but it would be sucked up by living costs and there are no (proper) hills in the south anyway!

I could earn a bit more living in the south east but it would be sucked up by living costs and there are no (proper) hills in the south anyway!

Don't the north & south downs, chilterns, quantocks and Mendips count?

What's the south of england like? As diverse as ever. Plenty of hustle and bustle around if you like it, quite a few peaceful corners if you know where to look. Not quite as crowded and unpleasant as people who don't live there would have you believe.

That's a bit misleading. I work in IT and have generally worked for banks - nearly all of whom have IT centres oop norf and pay pretty damn well. Manchester and West Yorkshire have tons of financial services companies employing lots of IT people

My experience is IT contracting. There is naff all outside the SE, seriously. If you can find me well paid work elsewhere then let me know 🙂

IT is a broad term. I'd be looking at 500 a day up here if I went contracting. Could be more down there but I'd spend it on crystal and hookers.
As it happens I'm going to work for a company based in the SE but work from home. Best of both worlds 🙂

What income bracket are you in South Africa? If you are close to the better income bracket say 15K rand after tax ........

So £13k will get you a 3 bathroom detached house with a pool, a pub, a double garage and a 30m drive - on a 2000m2 piece of land and a gardner and a maid in South Africa ? Whilst a quarter of the population lives on less than US $1.25 a day ?

Well this thread is proving to be an interesting insight into why South Africa has such a high crime rate. There are of course many causes of crime, but nothing, just nothing, contributes more to crime than social injustice. And nothing, just nothing, contributes more to social injustice than unemployment.

In South Africa over a quarter of those available for work are unemployed. And the majority of 15 to 24 year-olds (51%) are unemployed. That has to be seen in the context of a life expectancy of 52 years for men and 54 years for women.

Nothing comes without a price, and those who are fairly relaxed about Britain becoming an ever more unfair society where the gap between the haves and the have nots increases, causing ever greater social injustice, must also be equally relaxed about living in a more crime-ridden society. This is not a concept which some Daily Mail readers seem to fully understand.

Of course if you are at the very top of the tree, as the Bullingdon Boys are, you can protect and isolate yourself from much of the crime and misery by living a detached secluded existence well away from it all, and only occasionally witnessing it whilst driving through in your car. In South Africa gated communities or guarded compounds, are increasingly seen as a solution (although car-jacking is an increasing problem). You could call it segregation, separate economic development........or even apartheid, to use a fancy Dutch word.

IT is a broad term. I'd be looking at 500 a day up here if I went contracting

What line of work?

I can't get that kind of money even in the SE 🙂 Although to be fair I don't look way up North usually but I get the odd email.

Security. For some reason it's in high demand at the moment...
(Although with Lulzsec quitting last night it might dip again!).

Practically everyone in IT should be working at home by now. The technology is there we're just not using it. Think how much easier it would be for everyone to commute / reduced carbon footprint / decreased overheads for employer / happier employees etc..

I live on the outskirts of Salisbury. Earn above the average wage, wife on Maternity leave so on about £500 a month. Fairly soon into the mortgage, and we couldn't buy bigger than what we have (2 bed flat) in a nice area. It will be tough when we have another kid, but things are ok financially. Mind you, we don't run a car.

Overall, I'm very happy here. Lots of very pretty countryside surrounding us. People are generally very friendly, not much crime or poverty. Riding isn't amazing as the highest local point is about 250m, but there's enough. If I could move (I can't because of work) I'd be aiming at Somerset. Quality of life for me is much greater than if I'd stayed in Essex and worked in the financial sector, though I'm considerably poorer than most of my friends.

I have family in SA who all live in gated communities. I don't think I'd want to raise my kids in that kind of environment, but clearly I haven't experienced it. I have a good friend from Rhodesia at work who lived in SA after his national service until he had children. Having experienced both sides, he said he often forgets how nice it is to feel safe and untroubled by the crime and desparate poverty that affect Africa. Ignorance is bliss?

The SE is expensive and full of knobs. The SW is full of wurzels, the north is where it's at. Much better riding too..

I have family in Liverpool who all live in gated communities. I don't think I'd want to raise my kids in that kind of environment, but clearly I haven't experienced it. I have a good friend from Scotland at work who lived in Manchester after his national service until he had children. Having experienced both sides, he said he often forgets how nice it is to feel safe and untroubled by the crime and desparate poverty that affect the North. Ignorance is bliss?

Don't the north & south downs, chilterns, quantocks and Mendips count?

No.

all i can say is i live on the south coast (portsmouth) and crime is almost irrelevant. Yes it happens, but i still feel safe enough to go cycling or running at night. Obviously i dont go provoking trouble but i dont think i would do the same in south africa, or london or some places up north i hear stories about!

RichPenny - the "north" doesn't stop at manchester and liverpool. It's like saying the south = London, also crime ridden to a greater degree than either of the afore mentioned. Has your Scottish friend being to Slough?

The vast majority of the south is a shit hole compared to where I live in the north. And as previously mentioned - essex highest point at 250m doesn't even reach the altitude my house is at.

You can't generalise about the north in terms of quality of life. You can generalise about the south in terms of quality of ride.

the trouble with the north is it's full of people who generalise. 🙄

gwj72 - Member
You can't generalise about the north in terms of quality of life. You can generalise about the south in terms of quality of ride.

Up north all the trails are straight line double track and full of tourists.

hofnar - I'm on about 35K (£3K) a month and my GF earns about the same - so were doing ok. I know without doubt that I won't earn anywhere near that much in the UK and my standard of living will certainly have to drop.

There's a difference between having to give up the luxuries of a very comfortable life style, and having to give up everything just to survive. That's what I'm trying to work out I guess. I can give up the pool and the pub, because they are luxuries and I accept that, but I don't want to end up in a position where the cost of living is so high that I have to live on Tesco blue stripe food.

We would have a mortgage either way - and in both cases it's gonna be for about 120K. Rates are very low in the UK for the moment but they are not terribly high in SA. We'd just get much less house for our money in the UK.

I do miss the freedom to just jump on the bike and ride pretty much anywhere. From home here I could be on the south downs in 10 minutes and ride pretty much for as long as I wanted to without issue. The ramblers were the only real problem. For security in SA you do need to either ride in a group or ride somewhere that is secure, like a nature reserve or game farm. You just don't tend to ride randomly accross the veld like you do here.

We don't tend to ride from the house but that's more because were in the JHB subburbs with traffic etc than for crime reasons.

We don't have little ones - so no problems there.

ernie_lynch - The gaps between the top and bottom income bands is enourmous. There are people earning £8 a day for a hard days labouring (site work) and I have a friend who's a financial consultant that earns £200 an hour.

RichPenny - gated communities and complexs are definately the way to go. Once people move into them they wonder how they ever lived "on the outside". The biggest secure development in JHB (and its the size of a small town), currently under construction, is in Midrand - it's called Waterfall Park. There are houses, shops, petrol stations, pubs and restaurants, sports facilities - all behind a 10 foot wall with an electric fence and guards.

It's grim oop norf!

[img] [/img]

I heard that amongst some of the Singletrack staff the South contains a top 3 English riding destination..

Up north all the trails are straight line double track and full of tourists.

Not since the romans ****ed off.

Well I've just come back from a 33 mile ride around parts of the Surrey Hills. Mile upon mile of singletrack through woods and heathland with superb views to boot. Saw a couple of other bikers but apart from that had the trails to myself. I suppose all the "real" bikers were off riding somewhere less shite 😆

I did ride past Cheryl Cole's house and sneered at the paparazzi lurking outside. Probably Northerners.

There are houses, shops, petrol stations, pubs and restaurants, sports facilities - all behind a 10 foot wall with an electric fence and guards.

i would rather live anywhere in the u.k. than the above. even if it was in a hull/leeds/manchester/liverpool/wigan/swansea/bradford/coventry/dudley/southend/glasgow shitehole

Well I've just come back from a 33 mile ride around parts of the Surrey [b]Hills[/b]

You call them hills? 293m is the highest point in the SE. We've got higher speed bumps than that.

Up north all the trails are straight line double track

not universally true - but generally yes

was recommended an epic route up north

rode it

all straight line double track.

North has better hills but South has better trails!

not universally true - but generally yes

was recommended an epic route up north

rode it

all straight line double track.

😆

RichPenny - gated communities and complexs are definately the way to go. Once people move into them they wonder how they ever lived "on the outside". The biggest secure development in JHB (and its the size of a small town), currently under construction, is in Midrand - it's called Waterfall Park. There are houses, shops, petrol stations, pubs and restaurants, sports facilities - all behind a 10 foot wall with an electric fence and guards.

Urghh - mind you it's probably a glimpse of what the UK will be like in 20 years or so.

North has better hills but South has better trails!

You don't know where your riding. Tons of single track rideable from my house.
Not to mention both Snowdonia and the Lakes are only 1 hours drive 😀

hey hey.. c'mon guys..lets not get bogged down in the details.. nowhere on this green and pleasant island is more than a cycle journey away from anywhere else..

why not get together and show each other what we're missing..

That's not an invite to come here though BTW.. this is a local place for local people..

That's not an invite to come here though BTW.. this is a local place for local people..

Too right. My trails have a fraction of the bike traffic of ladybower and I'd like to keep it that way!

Yes we have sh!t weather.
Yes beer is £3 a pint (at least).
Yes house prices are ridiculous.

However,
We generally don't have earthquakes of any consequence, tidal waves, volcanoes etc.
Very many animals that can cause you serious harm.
The beer is good. (not rubbish generic lager or that rubbish white beer).

The best thing has to be, we must be one of the last Western nations, who do not arm the police on a routine basis.

You can keep your razor wire and attack dogs!

Yes we have sh!t weather.

Practically everyone in IT should be working at home by now

Tell that to my employers 🙁

Oh and can everyone who thinks the trails are crap please get a life? There's some great riding in the SE as there is in most of the rest of the country. It's a bit different to the North but it's still great. There's more than one kind of riding.

You Northerners who keep banging on about elevation are making yourself look like idiots, and painting all Northerners as narrow-minded stick-in-the-muds.

I used to live in Helsinki, the highest point in the local woods was about 80m - the riding was fantastic.

Spekkie,

If I where you I'd stay there for now( though I am not to keen on GP even Zuma admits it stands for Gangsta Paradise). Though use the good financial time to save up. Keep as many funds outside of the country(RSA that is) as you can so that you can split easily if you want too(Malema times).

Worked mortagage example at 4.5% for uk 8% for RSA quite realistic I think.

Cost of living my five cents:
UK more expensive
Shopping say RSA times 1,4 ish
Going out to eat say times 2 or 2.5 so thats gonna suffer a bit.
Housing browse online but keep savings as explained earlier in mind is more expensive but not as horrible as on first sight.
The Maid, the gardenes euhm times 10 they will become distant memories
Bike parts here you will save a lot although RSA has improve +UK is still al lot cheaper and Chain reactions is a lot faster to your door.

I left Durban two weeks ago so comparison is quite recent have been spending my last year inbetween UK and RSA.

Ernie,

If both have that income it does cost of living is so much less you get wonderfull houses for 100K GBP or 150KGBP in the more expensive area's.

About the 1.25 USD that's not the reality for a working minmal wage is higher it will get to 100 GBP a month or so. My experience lots of those who don't work just don't wanna work or have not many skills. Also many on low wages have (very)low productivity just hang around and don't work too much IMO you need to put out to earn.

Have you ever lived in Southern Africa? Its an eye opener, I used too sometimes feel sorry I definitely don't anymore and aid money is only making it worse.

I suppose it must just be how I ride then. I've always thought of mountain biking as involving the odd mountain. Tough climbs and big descents - hard work and reward. That for me that is mountain biking. And I get pissy for a bit when I come back from Wales and Scotland to my "little hills".

I accept it isn't everyone's idea of cycling. But without elevation it isn't mountain biking. It's what we call "tootling about" 😀

(o.k deliberately ****ty last comment. Couldn't resist it!)

But without elevation it isn't mountain biking. It's what we call "tootling about"

In that case, I <heart> tootling about 😀

About the 1.25 USD that's not the reality for a working minmal wage is higher it will get to 100 GBP a month or so

That's a very good article in the New York Times which covers the effect of the minimum wage in South Africa, and the lack of its implementation. It's well worth a read :

[url= http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/27/world/africa/27safrica.html ]Wage Laws Squeeze South Africa’s Poor[/url]

Quote :

[i]"The sheriff arrived at the factory here to shut it down, part of a national enforcement drive against clothing manufacturers who violate the minimum wage. But women working on the factory floor — the supposed beneficiaries of the crackdown — clambered atop cutting tables and ironing boards to raise anguished cries against it.

For over a decade, the jobless rate has been among the highest in the world, fueling crime, inequality and social unrest in the continent’s richest nation. The global economic downturn has made the problem much worse, wiping out more than a million jobs. Over a third of South Africa’s workforce is now idle.

[b]But most agree that the roots of the crisis lie deeper, in an apartheid past that consigned blacks to inferior schools, drove many from their land, homes and businesses and forced millions into segregated townships and rural areas where they remain cut off from the engines of the economy.[/b]"[/i]

....lots of those who don't work just don't wanna work or have not many skills. Also many on low wages have (very)low productivity just hang around and don't work too much IMO you need to put out to earn.

Strangely enough it's exactly the same here - many of the unemployed are unskilled and just don't wanna work. Even more bizarrely, they seem to get particularly lazy when the Tories get back in government, and even more people become too lazy to look for work. Despite the Tories having a very strong reputation for cracking down on work-shy cheats.

I reckon they do it on purpose just to embarrass the Tory government......they're all Labour voters, needless to say.

I'm going to design a new bike, a TX bike (Tootle-cross). I'm going to build a shed load and sell them right across Surrey.

To answer the OP...

It's good. I've no intention of leaving unless for work reasons. I get paid enough to go visit other parts of the country... enjoy the terrain and experience the rain... then I come back to 20 deg heat and I'm happy.

Off to go and drink Pimms round a mates... toodle pip. 🙂

The N/S thing is always fun isn't it? They got bigger hills, we got the sun 😀 We ride lots of hills in a day, they ride one. We wear T-shirts, they wear wetsuits. Tell you what gwj, when you've finished the bike, I'll swop ye for one of these:

[img] [/img]

Tell you what gwj, when you've finished the bike, I'll swop ye for one of these:

My bike would be wasted down there, it's got more travel that you have elevation. What you want is a TX bike 😀

I've always thought of mountain biking as involving the odd mountain. Tough climbs and big descents - hard work and reward

Have you ever actually ridden in 'the South' ?

Funny to hear southerners boasting about the weather. Just because it's marginally less shit than the north doesn't exactly make it the south of france. 😆

@molgrips

I doubt there is a county left I haven't took my bike to. My sister has been a London based MTB'er for years, my uncle lives in Weybridge and still rides.
Been out with them to their favourite trails plenty of times. My other sister was in Sussex for a while - christ that was like Holland.

Used to take my bike to Devon, Dorset, Cornwall regular when surfing.

So yes, I'm not just talking uneducated bollocks (for a change).

You must be very closed minded. Elevation is not mandatory for a good ride.

I love riding at Swinley, which is dead flat. If you think it's easy you're certainly not going fast enough. I find it a great workout because there's no let up, it's balls out all the time without 5 mins of coasting when you finish a climb.

Of course, if you're a pansy then you can just trundle it and not get out of breath.. if that's your thing 🙂

This looks like fun, and I wish there were more trails like that around here.

There I said it.

But then I don't think I'd swap it for easy access to this

[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5291/5571374227_f8f8203475_o.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5291/5571374227_f8f8203475_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/grum_wynne/5571374227/ ]Hellvelyn Mountain Biking (4 of 5)[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/grum_wynne/ ]Grum Wynne[/url], on Flickr

[url= http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1283/4689434828_995b13acd4_o.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1283/4689434828_995b13acd4_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/grum_wynne/4689434828/ ]Lonscale Fell - Lake District[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/grum_wynne/ ]Grum Wynne[/url], on Flickr

@molgrips - just to give a visual sense of what I'm on about, if you look at that picture I posted on page 1. Centre-ish left there is a farm house - directly up from the green shed. That house is roughly level with the top of Leith Hill. Then look up to the top of Kinder Scout.

That's what I'm talking about. It's really noticeable to me when I go down south, as it is when I come back here from Scotland. You make the best of what you've got.

(any scots on want to tell me my hills are mere pimples? It'd be fair comment!)

North has better hills but South has better trails!

This made me laugh out loud, ya gotta love the optimism of southerners...

Whats funny is you are debating about down south and really far down south. No one who has posted on here comes from anywhere north. Oh - and Edinburgh has more sun than most parts of the south as well.

So what, I love rain, not too keen on sun. And scottish women are pig ugly by comparison (and I am half Scottish).

Oh, the joy of IT consultants arguing pointlessly on the Internet, both determined that they're the only one capable of deciding what is right.

you are debating about down south and really far down south.

😕 Eh ? There's only "south" everywhere else is "north".......there's no such place as "really far down south". Evidenced by the fact that they speak funny in places like Birmingham. As a kid we went on a scout camp in Belper, none of natives could understand a word we spoke. That's when I first discovered how grim it was up north.

what about east then? or west? or even south east?
Racist!

That's what I'm talking about.

I know what the riding's like around the UK. I've lived (for shorter or longer periods) in the SW, Wales, the West Midlands, the North, and also stayed for a while in the SE. I have to admit that when I worked in Aldershot I was immediately surrounded by greater volume of biking than any of those other places. I live in Wales normally, which means I get to race Gorricks and Welsh races.

It'd be a shame to ride in any one location all the time and miss the rest, but really - I love it all! 🙂 A flat out blast around Swinley is massively grin inducing (if you've the legs for it), as is a 30 min fight-in-silence climb followed by a warp speed drop off the side of a mountain 🙂

what about east then?

East is crap, everyone knows that 🙂

East is crap, everyone knows that

+1

East is utterly pointless.

Unless you're a pig farmer...

East is crap, everyone knows that

+1

East is utterly pointless.

Unless you're a pig farmer...

I'm very liberal.. and open minded.. but I have to agree with that..

Bits of it are quite nice.

Or so I'm told, never actually saw any in the 20 years I lived there 🙂

Tell a lie, the sailing off the east coast is good. Does that count?

hofnar - where were you? North coast or South coast?

I think you're right - for the moment we'll keep working and keep saving. We're on good money and we don't have huge outgoings.

Long term - who knows what little Julius has planned for the whites in SA? And he certainly has the ear of the youth.

I've looked at a few properties over here this week and once you re-remember how small everything is, there are actually some quite cosy little places at not too much money 🙂

Not sure I could settle up north though . . . lol