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Have you read the review of the E-Expert I posted on the first page?
We leased ours. I looked at the previous three years van running costs, all in I think this is around £100 per month more expensive. Savings on fuel, tax, insurance, engine repairs offsetting the higher cost. The more fuel you put in the smaller that gap gets. Buying one outright at the moment would be crazy, but in three years when ones like mine come up for sale post-lease it would better.
Why is no-one talking about hydrogen fuelled vehicles, which seem to be a great combination of convenience and environmental credentials? Surely they are the future?
They might be, but we're a 'breakthrough' away from reality on those.
It's only my personal opinion, but Internal Combustion Hydrogen vehicles are a red herring, they're ferociously inefficient.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7
Like 'eFuels' they're a bid by the motor industry to try to delay the banning of ICE cars, they might be throwing millions at R&D, but that's chicken feed in motor industry terms.
Fuel Cell Hydrogen vehicles are a fantastic solution, if you can refine Hydrogen efficiently, which we can't. Some might argue that EVs only shift the pollution to the most tax efficient place possible (EVs create more Co2 then ICEs in Wales for example because of our poor energy production) by Fuel Cell cars would be much worse.
However, if they can find a way of doing it efficiency, or create enough sustainable energy to to make it viable, then maybe.
This might be the future
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/12/uk-seeks-site-world-s-first-fusion-power-station
If that works, then by the middle of the century, when I'll need to renew my driving license, if I'm lucky, then the dream of near endless clean energy might be a reality and it won't matter how much you use creating the fuel.
I don't see it though, the momentum with with EVs, Williams Engineering (sister company to the racing team) are working on the first 1000km range EV and Solid State batteries arriving, well it's always 5 years, but maybe it will be this time, then a 1000km range EV with a 500mph charging time (I've never seen it measured that way before) might be a reality and at that point, who wants to go back to hauling a combustion engine around when you can have a near silent EV
Isn't accessible charging (for terraces and apartments in cities) still the elephant in the room for EVs?
Isn’t accessible charging (for terraces and apartments in cities) still the elephant in the room for EVs?
Not just cities - go to any small Spanish town and at least half the housing will be apartments.
these are the people who shouldn't really need cars though! And why the focus should be on improving public transport (but car share schemes etc also can be helpful). Getting cars [I]out[/I] of cities/town centres should be the priority - not figuring out how to make them even more convenient!Isn’t accessible charging (for terraces and apartments in cities) still the elephant in the room for EVs?
these are the people who shouldn’t really need cars though!
what makes you say that ?
These are more often than not people that are forced into flats and apartments in areas where others dont want to live (city centre) for financial reasons rather than choice.
sounds like your only allowed to go mountain biking in the hills if you have a drive way in utopia.
While i agree with the sentiment - its one of those things thats easier to say from the luxury of an ivory tower rather than putting your self in the shoes of those in the situation.
Car share platforms are great in theory - anyone use one regularly - sample of 1 - an ex STW chap i keep in touch with uses one fairly regularly since his car was written off - and while it suits his needs - he messages fairly frequently along lines of "****ing car share car is broken" or "**** sake the car share car isnt where its supposed to be"
I vote for the belgian model - all cars get parked at the outskirts of town in carparks and you walk/ride/tram into the city.
sounds like your only allowed to go mountain biking in the hills if you have a drive way in utopia.
Equally, if you only need a car once a week to get to the hills then you're an ideal candidate for a car sharing scheme. Just depends if they find a way of making it convenient and cost effective in towns (already works in cities). I say this having only just escaped the exact situation you described, and finding it quite frustrating to pay so much for a car I barely use
because if we carry on as we are, we're ****ed - EVs or not - so people are going to have to make sacrifices, simple as that.what makes you say that ?
right - but if you're doing that you probably [I]don't[/I] need a car of your own every day (otherwise you should probably move 🤣), a car/van share or hire will work equally well. People are just hung up on the idea that they HAVE to own their own car (or 2, or 3!)I vote for the belgian model – all cars get parked at the outskirts of town in carparks and you walk/ride/tram into the city.
is it a human right to go mountain biking in the hills? What about the rights of others not to have to live in a city clogged full of unnecessary cars? If it's so important, maybe move closer/out of the city? Otherwise you will have to make compromises in your life - the same as 99.99% of other people who aren't Uber-rich (including me 😃 )sounds like your only allowed to go mountain biking in the hills if you have a drive way in utopia.While i agree with the sentiment – its one of those things thats easier to say from the luxury of an ivory tower rather than putting your self in the shoes of those in the situation.
is it a human right to go mountain biking in the hills? What about the rights of others not to have to live in a city clogged full of unnecessary cars? If it’s so important, maybe move closer/out of the city? Otherwise you will have to make compromises in your life – the same as 99.99% of other people who aren’t Uber-rich (including me 😃 )
You're asking for the populace to make sacrifices for the greater good.
People are selfish. It won't happen.
These are more often than not people that are forced into flats and apartments in areas where others dont want to live (city centre) for financial reasons rather than choice.
Again all nice if you have the money to move . I'm sure a vast majority of people would move out of the city centre if they could....*not simple as*
Like ‘eFuels’ they’re a bid by the motor industry to try to delay the banning of ICE cars, they might be throwing millions at R&D, but that’s chicken feed in motor industry terms.
there may well be a bid by the motor industry to kep ICE, becuase it's got such good infrastructure around it. Also the support for E-fuels is not just about keeping future vehciles going, but's about keeping mobility for legacy vehicles.
Ill say it's also not chicken feed in terms of R&D being put in, it is very substantial, but much like dieselgat, it's now pulled funding away from programmes that were very worthwhile all because the PR got in the way of the science..
I bought a car last year from a car dealer I'd consider a friend and pretty sound, his advice to me(I live pretty rural and sometimes tow a trailer) was diesel(as previously) but don't buy new, spend as little as possible and go for durability because it could be the last one, not spending too much because that lifespan could be cut short.
I was dubious about that and he pointed to the showroom, no new petrol or diesels in it, and none coming in, everyone replacing with a new car trade in their old and drive out in a very similar car with a battery in it, most buying a new car are making the switch as we speak, it's a very silent invisible revolution, the compound outside has hundreds if not thousands of diesel and petrol cars, there is still a market but it is shrinking with every electric car sold.
Dealer said if the progress of the last two years is anything to go by the job will be done long before 2030.
Reading through the thread is feels like transporter owners think they might be spared, will 'holiday' vehicles get a break along with commercial vehicles? I'd check before buying, we could see plumbers having their choice from a glut of tricked out transporters in 9 years time, but also most don't think 9 years ahead, few now need to because hardly any cars or vans in the UK are bought outright, most on some form of rolling HP and over 1.6 million in the UK lease, the real concern is really only for those that still buy things with money.
these are the people who shouldn’t really need cars though! And why the focus should be on improving public transport (but car share schemes etc also can be helpful). Getting cars out of cities/town centres should be the priority – not figuring out how to make them even more convenient!
This is something I come back to now and again, as I live in a terraced inner city area, and can never park my car anywhere near my house. There is a single car club car about a 10 minute walk away, which could possibly be a goer.
Thing is, our typical use case is going to see a parent for a weekend. That's about 4-5 hours round trip, and maybe 30 quid in petrol.
Car clubs get expensive if you need them for more than a couple of hours - Friday to Sunday with ZipCar would be £130 plus £25 excess mileage plus the monthly fees. So that's not really suitable, even if I could be sure that the one car was available.
I just checked trains to my MIL's, booking a couple of weeks ahead. £132 in tickets, plus maybe £15 in cabs to the station, and you have to go via the London underground which limits how much luggage you can bring. It also adds up to 4 hours onto the round trip.
Alternatively, depreciation, tax, MOT & insurance on my 2009 Mazda come to less than £100 a month. With the cost of petrol it's still cheaper than trains, even if I only use it once a month, and it's also quicker and more flexible. And then I have a car to use the rest of the time for trips to IKEA or the tip or a walk in the hills. All of which can be annoying without a car.
And so then I conclude that maybe car clubs aren't quite for me just yet. And I'll keep an eye on the EV charging situation over the next few years, just in case...
So yeah, I agree that it would be good to get cars out of cities. But we really do need to improve the alternatives!
You’re asking for the populace to make sacrifices for the greater good.
People are selfish. It won’t happen.
Of course it won't happen which is why it will be a total disaster by 2050. By then more people may think it is worth sacrificing some stuff but they will be 40 years too late. It is pretty much already too late today.
The problem is people are trying to make their current lifestyle planet friendly and that's not going to cut it. Unless we go back to a way of life where we live work and die within a 25 mile radius of where we're born an have 1 weeks Holiday per year somewhere perhaps 100 miles away, all the EV's in the world won't make a jot of difference.
Isn’t accessible charging (for terraces and apartments in cities) still the elephant in the room for EVs?
Not just cities, I live in a town about 30 miles from Glasgow at most, its 40 mins to drive or an hour by train, hour and a half by bus. During winter you may as well flip a coin as to whether the train or bus will run. Terrace house, no driveway.
Is it just me thinking that sleeping and cooking in a vehicle beside a tank full of hydrogen is like having a fag in an oil refinery?
I dunno, do you stress about petrochemical vapours? LPG?
The tank would be outside anyway, any residual hydrogen would be vented away, just like the breather pipe from a leisure [or cab mounted starter] battery.
Not particularly different to sleeping with a fair few gallons of diesel or petrol just beneath your bed.
Isn’t accessible charging (for terraces and apartments in cities) still the elephant in the room for EVs?
A red herring shaped elephant that gets brought up every time.
It's shrodingers electric car, one that is kept at home, is needed for lots of trips. But never goes anywhere so can't be charged at work, the supermarket or at a 'petrol' station.
It just sits there, parked half blocking the pavement because the owner didn't want to block the road. Slowly going flat.
Not particularly different to sleeping with a fair few gallons of diesel or petrol just beneath your bed.
In some ways safer as any vented gas would rise rather than puddle under the car.
OTOH, if it does go, it goes KABOOM like a car does in the movies, not like a car does in a real life.
OTOH, if it does go, it goes KABOOM like a car does in the movies, not like a car does in a real life.
That was my thinking, anyone that thinks hydrogen is like petrol needs to google before investing, petrol stinks and almost gasses you before it ignites, the first sign of a hydrogen leak is a layer of you on the trees 600 yards away!
That was my thinking, anyone that thinks hydrogen is like petrol needs to google before investing, petrol stinks and almost gasses you before it ignites, the first sign of a hydrogen leak is a layer of you on the trees 600 yards away!
It's a massive if though.
If a petrol tank leaks it's pretty likely to find a source of ignition because it's just sitting there in a big puddle with a nice big cloud of vapour over it, within its flammability limits untill it does.
Hydrogen, if it leaks, just disperses. You need the tank to rupture and the escaping gas to find a source of ignition before it disperses up into the atmosphere.
Otherwise you just get the characteristic "squeeky pop" when it ignites.
OTOH, if it does go, it goes KABOOM like a car does in the movies, not like a car does in a real life.
This reminded me of something, years ago I crashed into a car at a set of traffic lights, proper front end mangled right off, I was in the middle of an airbag for a few seconds not really able to see what was going on outside, but a small crowd had gathered at a metal barrier at the side of the road, the radiator was mangled and had an impressive jet of steam coming out, I was fine but took a while to fight my way out of the airbag thing and find my bag, wallet, stuff etc.
While I was doing this there was a man yelling like crazy shouting ''GET OUT THE CAR, IT COULD EXPLODE'' I gave him a wave and gestured I was ok but he was determined to get me out of the car, said I'm just getting my stuff but he was going nuts, fortunately this was right outside a police station and a police woman went and checked on the other driver, I got out and pacified the action movie fan then realised my laptop was still in the car...''DON'T GO BACK, GET BACK FROM THE CAR'' I tried to explain that it was steam coming off it not smoke but he wouldn't have it, so I had a near fatal head on collision where I and a police woman had to then calm some random guy down because cars explode in movies, yey.
anyone that thinks hydrogen is like petrol needs to google
Yes, yes they do. Preferably before posting.
Here's what actually happens when you get a failure of a hydrogen tank.
You could have a worse outcome with some sort of instantaneous catastrophic failure of the tank (which itself would go "bang" due to the pressure). But that's probably not the likely outcome.
H2 is a rubbish fuel, but safety isn't the real issue.
It’s a massive if though.
If a petrol tank leaks it’s pretty likely to find a source of ignition because it’s just sitting there in a big puddle with a nice big cloud of vapour over it, within its flammability limits untill it does.
Hydrogen, if it leaks, just disperses. You need the tank to rupture and the escaping gas to find a source of ignition before it disperses up into the atmosphere.
Otherwise you just get the characteristic “squeeky pop” when it ignites.
Sounds like you know more about it than me, which to be fair is not very much, all I know is they made bombs out of it once, I have had a car go on fire on me once, old MG with a dodgy fuel pump, chucked a towel over it, I wouldn't know what to do in the event of a hydrogen leak, would I smell it before lighting my last ever cigarette(I don't smoke I just said that for effect)
Here’s what actually happens when you get a failure of a hydrogen tank
I'm reassured by that 4' blue flame! is there a clip of what happens when a truck rear ends you at 60mph?
These are more often than not people that are forced into flats and apartments in areas where others dont want to live (city centre) for financial reasons rather than choice.
You don't make any sense (if city centres are so undesirable, why are they more expensive places to live than the suburbs or middle of nowehere?), and your certainty that people who live in cities would rather live elsewhere if they could is misplaced. YOU might prefer to live in the back of beyond but that's not true for everyone.
I looked into lease vans before buying my current van. Any that I could afford had a mileage cap of around 15k before massive counter charging (on average I’m hitting 30k plus per year). Also stone masonry is massively dusty so returning the van after several years in a dusty, dirty environment doesn’t go down well! Maybe more options will open up with making ev’s more accessible. Then im all for it
Like others have said we probably need to change our habits rather than just change vehicles. I’m not sure I could do without a van for work.
Couldn’t lamp posts have charging points? There must be ways to make it accessible to a large portion of people
I’m reassured by that 4′ blue flame! is there a clip of what happens when a truck rear ends you at 60mph?
Because the contents are under high pressure, the tanks have to be much, much more durable than petrol/diesel tanks - so they are far less likely to rupture in a crash. Hydrogen is stored at much higher pressures than LPG, so the tanks would be even beefier. I'd be more than happy to have a tank of the stuff in my car.
Isn’t accessible charging (for terraces and apartments in cities) still the elephant in the room for EVs?
these are the people who shouldn’t really need cars though! And why the focus should be on improving public transport (but car share schemes etc also can be helpful). Getting cars out of cities/town centres should be the priority – not figuring out how to make them even more convenient!
Erm... I've never lived in one in a city, but I've always lived in one! In the countryside, that place where millions live all spread out! I live in one now. There are plenty of flats, terraced house and even semis in countryside areas (small towns/villages/ random rows of houses) with no off street parking, no, or stupidly poor public transport and not a population density to support car clubs etc...
Why is no-one talking about hydrogen fuelled vehicles
It's been covered above, but:
i) Hydrogen is apparently a bit tricky to transport and store. It would need completely new infrastructure. It wouldn't be burnt in an ICE, it would be used in a fuel cell to produce electricity to drive electric motors. The hydrogen just functions as a chemical battery, but it has much lower energy density by volume than petrol so you would need a larger tank.
ii) Where do you get the hydrogen? Yes, you can make it from electrolysis of water, but that will be no more efficient than just using a battery EV. In either case, you still need a source of electricity to produce the hydrogen. Or you can convert natural gas to hydrogen. The drawback of that is so obvious that I won't bother to explain it.
An electric vehicle is 85-90% efficient, so for every 1kW of electricity generated, 850-900watts is used by the vehicle.
Production of hydrogen, including its transportation is 65% efficient. A hydrogen fuel cell is 60% efficient, then the electric motor of the vehicle is 95% efficient.
What all that means is that for every 1kW of energy used for a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, only 380 watts is available.
If you are concerned about where all of the electricity I going to come from to power electric vehicles, just imagine where on earth all the energy will come from to power hydrogen vehicles! They use 2.5-3 times more electricity!
What most people don't realise is that in a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, the hydrogen is burned to power a (Lithium ion) battery, which in turn powers the electric motor.
It always baffles me when people declare that we will need ev car chargers everywhere, or they won't buy an ev.
The average car in the UK does approximately 150 miles per week. Even with todays 'limited range' EVs, the average car would only need to be charges once a week.
Most people with a driveway will quickly realise that it is simpler just to plug in their car at home, (mostly)leaving public chargers for those who have no driveway, or doing longer journeys.
It isn't really a huge change in behaviour for the average driver (who has no driveway) to plug their car in for an hour once a week whilst doing the groceries/drinking coffee/visiting a friend etc.
I think a lot of people are resistant to change - I absolutely love my ev. Quiet, simple to drive and believe it or not, when I factor in fuel cost savings the cost of ownership over 5 years will be less than the overall cost of the same car with a petrol engine.
(Of course, there are also people who have no driveway who drive a heck of a lot more than the average 150miles per week, but by the same token there must be a heck of a lot of cars out there that rarely move!)
Couldn’t lamp posts have charging points?
That's part of the proposed solution, yes.
It always baffles me when people declare that we will need ev car chargers everywhere, or they won’t buy an ev.
I think people are making a legitimate point, but I think a lot of us probably underestimate the amount of thought that's being put into it.
Basically, it's not that much of a challenge to install a load of charging points everywhere.
It always baffles me when people declare that we will need ev car chargers everywhere,
or they won’t buy an ev.
Very easy to understand the concern. For someone with no drive way/ability to charge at home then it is the difference between filling up and one of the petrol stations they pass every 5 miles taking 2 minutes for every two weeks or finding an electric charge point and then waiting for their car to charge for a few hours.
It should really look very different in 2030 though as there will be lots more charge points and faster charging even on the cheaper cars. Will still need a LOT of charge points though as most petrol stations I pass always have quite a few cars filling up at any one time so that will be the same with charge points but with longer charging times, queues etc,. so may need even more than petrol pumps currently.
The average car in the UK does approximately 150 miles per week. Even with todays ‘limited range’ EVs, the average car would only need to be charges once a week.
That's true, and our Leaf only ever gets charged at home from a 13A plug which is more than ample. BUT cars also come with this 'freedom' that you could drive to E.g. Spain tomorrow, if you wanted. The fact that none of us do is immaterial - we could. At present, the charging situation means that trip would be fairly difficult - or at least require a degree of forethought that isn't necessary with an ICE car.
If we didn't have another (ICE) car, the trip to Cornwall would be a bit annoying.
I’m reassured by that 4′ blue flame! is there a clip of what happens when a truck rear ends you at 60mph?
The durability of the fuel tank isn't the issue in that scenario!
A red herring shaped elephant that gets brought up every time.
It’s shrodingers electric car, one that is kept at home, is needed for lots of trips. But never goes anywhere so can’t be charged at work, the supermarket or at a ‘petrol’ station.
Could you try to be more condescending? You've not quite hit peak STW yet.
I have a terraced house with no off street parking, I have chargers at work but it's not a given I would have the car. There is one charger at the school next door and another at the sports centre half a mile away. Out and about, I can't think of any chargers we regularly visit or any nearby. Yes, we could probably alter habits but being entirely dependent on public chargers either being available or working doesn't seem too clever.
I'm not saying they are terrible or that they will never work but right now they don't work for anyone without a regularly available, reliable charge point. I'm surprised that even needs explained.
all I know is they made bombs out of it once
If you mean a hydrogen bomb that was a reference to the fuel for the fusion stage of a thermonuclear bomb. It has less in common with hydrogen than a fission bomb has with a nuclear reactor.
without a massive investment in recycling the biggest issue is going to be what happens to all the dead batteries, at the moment only about 5% of Lithium Ion batteries are recycled globally, so we are going to getting through an awful lot of rare earth materials without recovery at the other end. Do we just stock pile all of the old ones in the hope that someone somewhere will come up a means to recycle in a manner that is cheaper than current mining processing and shipping costs?
Renault VW and Nissan are starting to work on it with about 20-25% of their current EV batteries at EOL, but these are all R&D projects and not scale able yet.
The other issue is that once you have taken the easily recyclable materials out such as aluminium and copper, you are left with a nasty hazardous mass of lithium manganese cobalt and nickel that is massively energy intensifier to do anything with to get the base metals back into a usable form.
I often see a sort of "yeah science will sort it out" shrug and response from folks about EV without actually looking at the current potion of the science and engineering.
Its a great Idea, but if we do not globally get our act together now to plan for the next 5-20 years of waste input, we are just willfully and blindly hoping the magic eco pixies will make our problems and legacy go away.
Now all I need is a EV that will do 500 plus miles on one charge, tow 3.5 tonnes, go off road and be intrinsically safe to go onto high risk COMAH sites and I'll be buying an entire fleet for our business.
would love Rivian to get a decent UK dealer/importer
An electric vehicle is 85-90% efficient, so for every 1kW of electricity generated, 850-900watts is used by the vehicle.
Production of hydrogen, including its transportation is 65% efficient. A hydrogen fuel cell is 60% efficient, then the electric motor of the vehicle is 95% efficient.
If you're going to make that comparison, you need to factor in the efficiency of generating and transporting the electricity to your EV, which if Gas is involved, (and it still is a lot) runs at about 55%.
Correct about the relative efficiency of hydrogen vs. electric cars though.
You don’t make any sense (if city centres are so undesirable, why are they more expensive places to live than the suburbs
YMMV but where I live outside of the executive suite developments that are now starting to pop up. Most of the city center housing is largely rental properties and student flats.
People who are trapped in the rental cycle - keeping the yields high by keeping the prices high which in turn keeps the property prices high in the city ...
They don't have the luxury to just pop out and buy a nice cheap* house in the middle of no where
*Not cheap
You don’t make any sense (if city centres are so undesirable, why are they more expensive places to live than the suburbs or middle of nowehere?),
The solutions for charging are all there, remember the guy that designed a sleeping policeman that compressed and turned a thing that generated electricity, every thud from every car coming out a car park etc, he got some stick for that crazy idea before it's time.
You also have the potential for 'charging roads'..I might have invented the name, basically an underground/road charger that charges you up as you go, same thing could be built into carparks and...charge while you park, supermarkets would probably do it free just to monopolise the footfall.
In the mean time the big switch over is like any big technology switch over, once the decision is made in the head you just get on with it and make do, after a couple of days it was the best decision you ever made...mainly cos you made it, electric cars, 29'' wheels, no one say 'oh god I want to go back''.
Alpin, do those flats have a car park? it's easy enough to install community charge points, in some ways a community scheme is cheaper and easier.
@espressoal those flats could be Cowcaddens, Sighthill, Cumbernauld or down by the river in Ayr. How long do you think a community charge point would last before it got vandalised? How many folk have the income to even justify one?
Neither of these are reasons in themselves to not do it but it's a realistic question to ask.
Someone said above that if we expect to carry on as normal it'll never work. I agree but for very different reasons, not because I'm a doom monger. Society is going to have to do some serious shuffling to get rid of it's ridiculous reliance on personal transport. Out of town retail needs to go or at least be easily accessible. Commuting needs to be seriously looked at and rates adjusted to penalise companies without a plan for sustainable working (working from home, sustainable transport etc.). Likewise public transport needs a serious overhaul, I'd love to get an evening train to FW and do a session up Nevis Range the next day, realistically that's not going to happen. It's getting closer thanks to the new bike carriages being rolled out but it has a long way to go yet (a bus from town would be nice). The more we can eliminate the need for cars the less of an issue they actually are. That seems to be the bit people conveniently ignore.
People who are trapped in the rental cycle – keeping the yields high by keeping the prices high which in turn keeps the property prices high in the city …
Have you seen the yields on rental properties recently?
Where do you live?
remember the guy that designed a sleeping policeman that compressed and turned a thing that generated electricity, every thud from every car coming out a car park etc
Do a Google search for "perpetual motion". What that is fundamentally doing is making a car drive up a ramp then using the energy of the car descending to drive a generator. Problem is, it takes more energy to drive up the ramp than you can generate from the descent.
an underground/road charger that charges you up as you go
A car needs sustained power of 10 to 20 kW to not be frustratingly slow. That's about 1000 times more powerful than a smartphone charger. Wireless charging needs the devices to be very close, ideally in contact, and properly aligned. A car bouncing around on suspension swerving between lanes is going to be tricky. On top of that, you need to build wireless chargers that run for thousands of miles. That will be massively expensive. Much more expensive than just putting charging points alongside every parking space.
supermarkets would probably do it free just to monopolise the footfall.
A plug-in charging station, probably. A carpark sized wireless charging station, no way.
those flats could be Cowcaddens, Sighthill, Cumbernauld or down by the river in Ayr. How long do you think a community charge point would last before it got vandalised? How many folk have the income to even justify one?
Neither of these are reasons in themselves to not do it but it’s a realistic question to ask.
Someone said above that if we expect to carry on as normal it’ll never work. I agree but for very different reasons, not because I’m a doom monger. Society is going to have to do some serious shuffling to get rid of it’s ridiculous reliance on personal transport. Out of town retail needs to go or at least be easily accessible. Commuting needs to be seriously looked at and rates adjusted to penalise companies without a plan for sustainable working (working from home, sustainable transport etc.). Likewise public transport needs a serious overhaul, I’d love to get an evening train to FW and do a session up Nevis Range the next day, realistically that’s not going to happen. It’s getting closer thanks to the new bike carriages being rolled out but it has a long way to go yet (a bus from town would be nice). The more we can eliminate the need for cars the less of an issue they actually are. That seems to be the bit people conveniently ignore.
Good practical arguments, these get us straight into working out solutions, your not doom mongering you are just identifying real problems that need solved.
I just spent two days working with electricians, one job was putting in a heavy supply cable from the mains to the other end of a building getting developed, took about an hour, at the end goes a terminal box that supplies a house but you could stick a car charger or whatever on that, it's not a big job.
Security and sharing is just another thing that needs a solution, cctv? a big jaggy fence round it? if it is the case that some places are too rough to put what is essentially an outdoor socket then it's more of a social issue than a car charging one, they presumably have bins at a central point and vehicles that need protecting, my take is that in time an out door charging point will eventually be as common as a wheely bin, and just as inspiring to neds.
The other solution is put them in the wheely bins, gaffer tape the lid and beat the side with a stick for a bit.
you're missing the point! If there's a ramp [I]anyway[/I] (as a traffic calming measure, say) then it's free energy (at least, free for whoever's collecting it 😃) that could be used to power e.g. car park ticket machines or other roadside infrastructureProblem is, it takes more energy to drive up the ramp than you can generate from the descent.
Do a Google search for “perpetual motion”. What that is fundamentally doing is making a car drive up a ramp then using the energy of the car descending to drive a generator. Problem is, it takes more energy to drive up the ramp than you can generate from the descent.
They have to drive over it anyway, its a sleeping policeman to slow traffic, serves that purpose and generates electricity doing it, they are in use, same sort of technology that generates power on braking, you have to break anyway, why not use that friction to generate power.
Gyms, a load of people running on treadmills and cycling resistance machines, effectively wasting energy, with the lights on, if you hooked up all the exercise machines it would be like a mini human powered power station, I jest but the concept is there, to make it more ironic they drive their electric car to the place to deliberately waste energy, quite strange when you think about it, and they pay for that, why not just run there, turn round and run home? ...sort of thinking.
it's a good idea, and is actually already a thing (albeit this example is probably more of a small-scale, proof of concept than anything else): https://www.womenshealthmag.com/uk/fitness/workouts/a708491/spin-class-generates-electricity/Gyms, a load of people running on treadmills and cycling resistance machines, effectively wasting energy, with the lights on, if you hooked up all the exercise machines it would be like a mini human powered power station
Wireless charging needs the devices to be very close, ideally in contact, and properly aligned.
From the underside of a car to the road is 10''? aligned by driving in lane? you pay a toll and drive 20 miles on charge? if any of this is possible it's just a private toll service, the amount of charge you get is just relative to the toll cost, maybe not soon, just one more future solution.
All of this is a bogey if manufacturers fins a way of easily removing batteries, if/when that is possible you can have one on charge at work or at home, or petrol station, and just switch them over, game changed, long way off though without some sort of trolley.
it’s a good idea, and is actually already a thing (albeit this example is probably more of a small-scale, proof of concept than anything else): https://www.womenshealthmag.com/uk/fitness/workouts/a708491/spin-class-generates-electricity//blockquote >
£25 to use your energy to 'save the planet', ah the irony, but nice to see it is possible, never quite got my head around indoor static cycling, I think I might cycle down to my local gym and cycle round and round it just for the irony buzz.
If you’re going to make that comparison, you need to factor in the efficiency of generating and transporting the electricity to your EV, which if Gas is involved, (and it still is a lot) runs at about 55%.
Presumably that applies to both though (assuming the H2 generation is via electrolysis). But equally could be wind, solar etc. It's just saying that For every kWh of electricity you generate either 85% efficient, or 0.65*0.6=39% actually makes it to the motor.
Now all I need is a EV that will do 500 plus miles on one charge, tow 3.5 tonnes, go off road and be intrinsically safe to go onto high risk COMAH sites and I’ll be buying an entire fleet for our business.
Considering ICE car's aren't allowed past the car parks at most petrochemical sites that seems unlikely. Although an ATEX 114 approved EV would seem more likely, but you'd need to work round the issue of static discharges with some sort of special conductive tires (or a more reliable version of those dangly strips)?
Gyms, a load of people running on treadmills and cycling resistance machines, effectively wasting energy, with the lights on, if you hooked up all the exercise machines it would be like a mini human powered power station, I jest but the concept is there, to make it more ironic they drive their electric car to the place to deliberately waste energy, quite strange when you think about it, and they pay for that, why not just run there, turn round and run home? …sort of thinking.
Given the FTP of most 'cyclists' is <200W, and the average person you see twiddling the pedals or walking on a treadmill is probably not even breaking three figures. You'd need a whole gym to boil a kettle.
From the underside of a car to the road is 10”? aligned by driving in lane?
Wireless charging on the move is massively more difficult and expensive than dropping a phone on a charging pad. A stationary one in a car park or kerbside would be much easier to do, but still much more expensive than plugging into a socket. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's a good idea.
Battery swap stations already exist, in China and Norway if you own a Nio
You also have the potential for ‘charging roads’..
Must be trolling. I am sorry but this on the same level as solar roadways.
There are solutions to overnight charging, for example what about leaving your semi autonomous EV in a queue and they all move forward or backwards to the chargers overnight all networking to provide charged cars to the folks who need them earliest in the morning.
Employment for EV guardians overnight etc.
Must be trolling. I am sorry but this on the same level as solar roadways.
Just posing the possibilities for the future, which given that people were telling me electric cars would never catch on just a couple of years ago would appear to be closer than we usually think.
I don't particularly like electric, for me compared to diesel it's weak, doesn't pull a trailer or cut a tree down, but I think we need to alter our expectations in the future, I don't think technology alone is not going to give us what we have become used to, and I don't think just continuing to expect low cost full power 24/7 is going to be a cost effective option.
doesn’t pull a trailer or cut a tree down,
How not like. ?
Just because something is possible doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.
Yet.
I'm old, they said unleaded petrol would take years to phase in.
How not like. ?
Power mainly, the weight of towing, the distance you need to tow, and there are no electric chainsaws powerful enough to power through a tree, even if they had sockets in the woods, perhaps one day soon.
There are solutions to overnight charging, for example what about leaving your semi autonomous EV in a queue and they all move forward or backwards to the chargers overnight all networking to provide charged cars to the folks who need them earliest in the morning.
Employment for EV guardians overnight etc.
Nice idea if things went that way, drop your car off car wash style..get it hoovered at the same time by a real human that gets wages.
You may want to let sthil know about your findings.
Things are moving fast. Even I'm beginning to move with them.
You may want to let sthil know about your findings.
Same story as electric cars, expensive and as yet just for light trimming work, a chainsaw that runs out of power half way through a tree would be a liability, I have an electric chainsaw for cutting at home, less noise, but it plugs in so there are no charging interruptions.
Even I’m beginning to move with them.
Holy ****.
In reality little is really ever "banned".
You can still buy coal, creosote, leaded petrol, lightbulbs, proper paint, leaded solder, fags.
What actually happens is is it just gets a bit harder or more expensive to access the bad things if you need or want them.
And this actually achieves the original aim - to achieve the hoped for change to environmental impact you don't need to remove all of the the harmful things just nearly all of them.
Ten years is a long time and I predict a non-event not carmageddon on "whatevernamethemediacomeupwith"- Day.
The European way would be to say "you can still have an IC car, you just have to pay more tax, say it's for one of the derogated reasons and have an F-great Rainbow sticker on the door showing that it's B not A+++ for emissions. Up to you".
Late to this thread, so apologies if already covered.
This video shows as how weight of vehicle goes up, EV becomes impractical due to weight.
Hydrogen looks a real possibility, and it’s not just JCB pushing this either. Toyota one of the first adopters of EV are now looking at hydrogen
Hydrogen looks a real possibility, and it’s not just JCB pushing this either. Toyota one of the first adopters of EV are now looking at hydrogen
I repeat the same thing I always say at this point. HAVE YOU SEEN THE COST OF HYDROGEN!
$75 for a tank, which will do about 250miles. And that's tax free. It's causing problems in California as the cars were sold with fuel cards that effectively made them free to fuel up for a number of years which is now coming to an end and surprise surprise, no one wants a car in America that costs almost 4x more than normal to run when an electric car costs about a half.
https://www.autoweek.com/drives/a33651995/bye-bye-long-term-mirai/
And it's not a question of economies of scale, that's just what it costs. There's a huge excess of the stuff being produced at refineries and burnt as fuel gas because there isn't another use for it. But the cost of transporting, storing and transferring it is monumental.
Power mainly, the weight of towing, the distance you need to tow, and there are no electric chainsaws powerful enough to power through a tree, even if they had sockets in the woods, perhaps one day soon.
Model 3, ID4, Enyaq all tow upto 1000kg, supposedly going upto 1200kg with an update. Polestar will tow 1500kg. So all of them will tow the maximum you can on a UK car license with a hefty margin to spare. E-tron will tow 1800kg!
They also have the benefit of 100kg (ish) nose weights as the batteries balance the car, so you can even put a motorbike on the towbar, or 4 e-bikes.
Just posing the possibilities for the future, which given that people were telling me electric cars would never catch on just a couple of years ago would appear to be closer than we usually think.
I think the answer you're looking for is "Yes I am trolling".
a chainsaw that runs out of power half way through a tree would be a liability,
Bit like when they run out of fuel.
Yeah their biggest saw won't take out a large tree but the 46minute run time.on the 240 and is targeted for cutting down small to medium trees - the sort of trees amateurs and house holders will be felling....if they should even be doing that tbh.
Just like an electric car will cover most folks towing....I tow over 2tons maybe 5 times a year and up to 3 maybe once a year More often than not it's <1t
Out side of that you'll likely have commercial exemptions via taxation or permits.
Tbh I'd quite like to see the 121terrawatts of electricity being wasted on *Ponzi*coin being stopped long before the fueling restrictions comes in.
And it’s not a question of economies of scale, that’s just what it costs. There’s a huge excess of the stuff being produced at refineries and burnt as fuel gas because there isn’t another use for it. But the cost of transporting, storing and transferring it is monumental.
Umm, that sounds exactly like a question of economy of scale. If the market is so small of course its going to cost more to store and transport. You're not answering the practical question though in that electric isn't a solution for heavy vehicles, especially ones in use 24/7. Hydrogen is.
It's also worth pointing out that whilst hydrogen does have an adverse impact on materials there are power stations with generators that were built 50 years ago and still fine. You should see the state of our hydrogen farm, we're right next to the sea and you know it. Pipework looks like f-all but it's sound, as are the bottle banks. It's not as big an issue as people will have you believe.
The busses in our area run on hydrogen.
In 2016 these busses were >1mill to buy
In 2019 -350k Vs diesel unit of 230k .
Toyota one of the first adopters of EV
eh? toyota have always been pushing back against full EVs. I can't think of a single one they make - they have hybrids and hydrogen, but their first full EV is launching in a couple of years.
I could see hydrogen working for commercial vehicles in the future, in the main they have the storage and refueling facilities, on site or depot, electric for the commuter and short distance car..which is most of them.
@5lab Toyota Bz vehicles out now. BEV’s. Yes even Toyota are making BEV now.
Dya think the war rig ran on hydrogen 😉
We would go a long way to sorting this by testing for emissions correctly and fully at mot instead of the joke of testing we do now.
@tonyg2003 source? All I can see is that they have announced a concept and the car is a couple of years away.
I might have jumped the gun! Available 2022 - autoexpress and autocar